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Thread: OFFTOPIC from Albanian

  1. #26
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    Albanian


    Are this kind of singing style diffused in other parts of Europe or even of the world? Are they connected all to shepards?

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    julia90, this really does not belong here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    julia90, this really does not belong here.
    I pointed out that It might explain the linguistic connections, tought i belive this style of singing could be present in other parts of europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    I pointed out that It might explain the linguistic connections, tought i belive this style of singing could be present in other parts of europe
    Yes, and I've been trying to elaborate that there is no linguistic connection, and why, from the archaeological context, it would not be expected in the slightest, either.

    I really do wonder though: what is it about the Albanians that people come up with such peculiar speculation about connecting them with all kinds of other people? To briefly mention the various offbeat 'theories' that I've seen on this forum: the Basques, Berbers, Etruscans, "Pelasgians" and now Sardinians. Why is it so hard to accept that the Albanians are who they are, and that in the course of history, they interacted with the people they interacted (ancient Greeks, Dacians, Romans, East Germanic peoples, Slavs, Turks?), and with nobody else? Why all this wild speculation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Yes, and I've been trying to elaborate that there is no linguistic connection, and why, from the archaeological context, it would not be expected in the slightest, either.

    I really do wonder though: what is it about the Albanians that people come up with such peculiar speculation about connecting them with all kinds of other people? To briefly mention the various offbeat 'theories' that I've seen on this forum: the Basques, Berbers, Etruscans, "Pelasgians" and now Sardinians. Why is it so hard to accept that the Albanians are who they are, and that in the course of history, they interacted with the people they interacted (ancient Greeks, Dacians, Romans, East Germanic peoples, Slavs, Turks?), and with nobody else? Why all this wild speculation?

    They surely are indigenous to the balkans, thought i find interesting the speculations on pelasgians: etruscans, and maybe a part of the ethnogenesis of sardinia (Shardana) surely have in common with southern balkans, because as said in past posts, pelasgians in coming from anatolia it's higly probable they have left traces in greece, albania, fyrom, bulgaria and so on.
    This is why southeast europe, in particular southern parts of balkans, and southern italy as well as central italy have quite important west asian genes, thought sardinia, have less of them.
    That's all about i'm interested on this topic and possible speculations on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post

    Are this kind of singing style diffused in other parts of Europe or even of the world? Are they connected all to shepards?
    Yes just find the Greek polyphony, the Famous Bulgarian womens polyphony, Serbia, Bosnia etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by 8mike View Post
    what about sumerian ? the word "temen" means foundation and it is very similar to albanian "themel" which mean foundation.
    themel or θεμελιος λιθος, I wonder does that word exist in Other IE languages,

    θεμελιωσις foundation
    θεμελιος λιθος the big stone, the first one, upon which we build a house,
    θεμελιωδης basic one, the basis upon we build a theory etc
    συθεμελος total act of a structure or an idea with the hidden parts,
    I wonder if there is any in another Ie language? or comes from another word like Themis θεμις -θεμιτος, Θυμα,

    hmmm
    maybe from the word θεμα (theme) ???

    virb θετω (Ι put)
    noun θεμα θεμιτος θεσις
    extracts θετος Θετταλος θεμελιος ενθετος Εκθεσις και εκθεμα etc
    Last edited by Yetos; 07-03-12 at 03:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    themel or θεμελιος λιθος, I wonder does that word exist in Other IE languages,

    θεμελιωσις foundation
    θεμελιος λιθος the big stone, the first one, upon which we build a house,
    θεμελιωδης basic one, the basis upon we build a theory etc
    συθεμελος total act of a structure or an idea with the hidden parts,
    I wonder if there is any in another Ie language? or comes from another word like Themis θεμις -θεμιτος, Θυμα,

    hmmm
    maybe from the word θεμα (theme) ???

    virb θετω (Ι put)
    noun θεμα θεμιτος θεσις
    extracts θετος Θετταλος θεμελιος ενθετος Εκθεσις και εκθεμα etc
    i thought it was possible to have connections between non european languages. i remember the word *táwros (bull) cognating with the semitic *θawr-. Maybe "temen" cognates with the word themel and θεμα. Maybe it can be a very old borrowing during some very old migration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 8mike View Post
    i thought it was possible to have connections between non european languages. i remember the word *táwros (bull) cognating with the semitic *θawr-. Maybe "temen" cognates with the word themel and θεμα. Maybe it can be a very old borrowing during some very old migration.
    Indeed that is true, and I agree,
    But I think sumerians were a bit Ie, although I might be wrong,

    Indeed there are a lot of words of Semitic on Mediterenean languages,
    But I believe that comes from the Akkadians, for me they split to Arcado-Cypriots and to Levantines,
    Arcado-Cypriots moved west reaching Aegean and become Pelasgians and from there to Italy as Etruscans,
    while Levantines moved south and Create Phoenicians

    there many words which we consider as Semitic, which exists in South IE languages, even in Latin as the word aqua, Homer Hesiodus uses many non IE which we consider as Pelasgian or Semitic.

    Even in modern Turkish we find such words.

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    Maybe the Proto Semitic and Proto IE, before separating in two different languages were the same language, thus this similarities...

    @julia90
    Maybe this similar polifonic type of singing in Albania and Sardinia is a remnants from the Roman Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Indeed that is true, and I agree,
    But I think sumerians were a bit Ie, although I might be wrong,

    Indeed there are a lot of words of Semitic on Mediterenean languages,
    But I believe that comes from the Akkadians, for me they split to Arcado-Cypriots and to Levantines,
    Arcado-Cypriots moved west reaching Aegean and become Pelasgians and from there to Italy as Etruscans,
    while Levantines moved south and Create Phoenicians

    there many words which we consider as Semitic, which exists in South IE languages, even in Latin as the word aqua, Homer Hesiodus uses many non IE which we consider as Pelasgian or Semitic.

    Even in modern Turkish we find such words.

    Sumerian was an isolate language, completely unrelated with Indo-European. Sumerian is the oldest attested language, and it was the first language that ceased to be spoken as a living language but continued as a literature language (similar to Latin). It was effectively a dead language from the early 2nd millennium BC onward, before any Indo-European language was even attested. It was never spoken outside of Mesopotamia.

    So, I would like to ask you: what are the chances of any kind of borrowing from Sumerian into Albanian, or any other Indo-European language (other than for instance Hittite)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Endri View Post
    Maybe the Proto Semitic and Proto IE, before separating in two different languages were the same language, thus this similarities...
    Semitic and IE are not closely related. The Semitic languages are part of the greater Afroasiatic (aka Afrasian) language family, which includes the Berber languages, the Chadic langugaes, Egyptian and the Kushitic languages.

    I agree that there is the possibility that this word is related, but it could also be a Semitic borrowing into PIE, a PIE borrowing into Semitic, or a common borrowing from a third source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sumerian was an isolate language, completely unrelated with Indo-European. Sumerian is the oldest attested language, and it was the first language that ceased to be spoken as a living language but continued as a literature language (similar to Latin). It was effectively a dead language from the early 2nd millennium BC onward, before any Indo-European language was even attested. It was never spoken outside of Mesopotamia.

    So, I would like to ask you: what are the chances of any kind of borrowing from Sumerian into Albanian, or any other Indo-European language (other than for instance Hittite)?



    Semitic and IE are not closely related. The Semitic languages are part of the greater Afroasiatic (aka Afrasian) language family, which includes the Berber languages, the Chadic langugaes, Egyptian and the Kushitic languages.

    I agree that there is the possibility that this word is related, but it could also be a Semitic borrowing into PIE, a PIE borrowing into Semitic, or a common borrowing from a third source.
    I do not know about the chance of a Sumerian word to have been in modern Albanian,
    and believe little chances, But you may not exclude the bellow chances,
    that Themel is from Older Illyrian and survived in modern Albanian
    or an ancient Greek borrow, That is why I asked if exist in any other IE language,
    if the word is not connected with any other IE then surely is Greek or older non IE

    although there is a book by Jehunda (Yehunda) that compares Greek, Hebrew, Latin and older languages like Aramaic and by what i was able to see there are indeed many commons, the number the last time was >1600 thematic roots, meaning that the possibility is high, of an older Mediterenean- minor Asian language,

    Just think how much we know about the language of the Hatti (Hath-rop, Hath-rus)

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    the only thing i found is this http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%92%8B%BC, but it doesn't tell anything about what words derived from it. just a curiosity, how do they know that that symbol is called "temen"?

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    I have moved a lot of clearly unrelated posts from the Albanian language thread into this one. The original thread is found here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 8mike View Post
    if i remember right there are a few words in common between albanian and basque language. maybe the pre albanian language was not IE. also

    sardinian:eni = alban enjë

    sardinian:alase spear grass = alban halë thorn

    sardinian: lothiu mud (topp: Lotzorai, Lothorgo, Loceri, Lotzeri) = alban lloç ‘mud

    sardinian: dròb(b)alu pig intestine = alban drobolì intestine

    sardinian: urtzula ‘clematis’, top. Urtzulei = albanese hurdh ivy


    also

    basque: txerri pig = albanian derri pig
    basque: ardoa wine = albanian ardhi grapevine
    basque: buztan tail = albanian bisht tail (but i think this is IE)

    also even in serbo-croatian you can find similarities with basqu:
    particularly gora (mountain) and gore (up). Gorain Basque is up, upwards, being a clear ethimologically Basque word (goi+ra: to the high) The other connection was reka (river) and erreka (creek, small river) but this can well be an IE import into Basque.

    So this is why it wasn't so strange to me that Sardinian and Albanian could have a connection in some ways.


    Latin lutum - clay, mud
    Romanian lut - clay


    Romanian drob - chicken or lamb intestines
    Serbian,Croatian,Czech,Slovenian drob - intestines
    Bulgarian drob - lung

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    Albanian


    Are this kind of singing style diffused in other parts of Europe or even of the world? Are they connected all to shepards?
    Julia90, polyphonic singing in Albania is not only related to shepherds. I think experts believe it originated from a sort of lament, especially the Lab polyphonic singing.

    see this one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shgUKMkt-60

    often, singing is performed as a dance, like this one singing about a warrior:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqciYkW1Rgs

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    Quote Originally Posted by 8mike View Post
    i learned albanian from my parents.
    the words i posted are all from linguist Alberto Areddu. The word "mud" i used as "lloç" i use to pronounce it "lluc".

    Albanian "lloç", "lluç", "lluçe" is a borrowing from Latin Lutum ("mud") >pronounce "lutsum".

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