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Thread: Meet The Proto-Indo-Europeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Well Finland is a Nordic country and Finnish folks are Nordics that means natives of Northern Europe. According to me folks in the Baltic states and the (Northern) Slavic tribes were actually Finno-Ugric speakers like their ethnic relatives in Finland. Estonians speak still an Uralic language and not an Indo-European one. Finnic and Baltic folks are almost the same.

    There's for about 10% of hg. N1 in Sweden according to this site. 38% of N1 in Latvia and 42% of N1 in Lithuania. I do think it's also very high in northern parts of Russia. N1 is part of North-European DNA component. Hg. N1-something is Nordic.

    Northern Slavs and Baltic folks (Latvia, Lithuania but without Finland and Estonia of course ) got Indo-Europeanized from the South and Finland not because of way to cold climate there, too peripheral and thinly populated area.

    Btw, it's impossible that Proto-Indo-Europeans are from North because Nordic countries have always been thinly populated place. With other words Nordic countries always had not enough human resources too influence other regions!

    Population of all Nordic countries is only for about 25 million. My question is how much of them lived 5000 years ago? Enough to Indo-Europeanise Mesopotamia, Iran and India? I don't think so!
    while modern terminology say nordic incorporates Finland, the term norse did not
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen
    norsemen wher people from scandinavia and scandinavia does nort include Finland
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia

    The only reason the swedes have some N1 is because they ruled Finland for about 400 years in the renaissance times


    What is northern Slavs ......Russians ?

    In my knowledge and what I have read, the Finno-ugric comprised of Finnic ( original people from around eastern finland ) and Ugric, people coming from Mongolian/siberian area. The "mongols" also brought Hunnic into europe , which is why Hungary is Ugric
    The only "pure" slavs are the Rus ( russians ) the other like sythians, sarmatians and others become slavitized.

    The baltic people are neither germanic, nor slavic, nor Finnic but purely Baltic, split either into western or eastern baltic tribes. The Lats, Livs, kurs, prusi, sambians, galidians, venedae etc etc are baltic people.
    The Ests where finnic people.

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    I'd say it's mostly Indo-European. In Western Europe, you'll find a high percentage of Y-DNA haplogroup R1b, which is associated with Indo-Europeans. In Eastern Europe, you'll find a high percentage of the Y-DNA haplogroup R1a, which is also associated with Indo-Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The Anatolian hypothesis simply does not work. Common words for horse, wheel/wagon, and metals have been reconstructed for Proto-Indo-Europeans, and the first farmers that entered Europe (which are supposed to have spoken PIE according to the Anatolian hypothesis) had none of that.
    For which metals exactly are there common words in IE languages? Because the first farmers casted copper and Gold

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You're messing up facts. The oldest evidence for wheeled vehicles comes from the Bronocice pot, Poland, from circa 3500 BC.
    You're wrong. The oldest evidence for wheeled vehicles comes from the Northern Kurdistan.

    This toy car is 2000 years older than Bronocice pottery and is at least for about 7500 years old!






    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...an-c-5500.html

    http://www.datelinezero.com/2012/02/...astern-turkey/

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    Also do never forget that the first Indo-European and ARYAN (Iranic) speaking EMPIRE was found in heavy hg. J2a rich area (Kurdistan) by the great, powerful, mighty and legendary Medes (proto-Kurds).

    I as a Kurds am very proud of what my ancestors did!

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    For which metals exactly are there common words in IE languages? Because the first farmers casted copper and Gold
    There is no easy, straight-up answer here. But that should not be taken as evidence against the existence of common words for metals in PIE, but it can be summarized in the following way: is a word attested in most or all branches of IE (or lacking that, languages in the opposite spectrum of IE), and if it is, can it's original meaning be reconstructed?

    In any case, the consensus is that the Proto-Indo-Europeans certainly knew silver (more precisely "that which is glittery"), gold (more precisely "that which is shiny") and "metal" (which may have been 'copper', 'bronze', or 'both').

    The last one deserves the most explanation, because the word *ajos (or *Hejos) is found only in Germanic (English "ore", German "Erz", Gothic "aiz"), Italic (Latin "aes") and Indo-Iranic (Avestan "ayah", Sanskrit "ayas" - both which may mean "iron" or "metal").

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Also do never forget that the first Indo-European and ARYAN (Iranic) speaking EMPIRE was found in heavy hg. J2a rich area (Kurdistan) by the great, powerful, mighty and legendary Medes (proto-Kurds).

    I as a Kurds am very proud of what my ancestors did!
    There's no room here for your strange ethnic nationalism. You're getting an infraction now, and consider that you're running out of warnings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    There is no easy, straight-up answer here. But that should not be taken as evidence against the existence of common words for metals in PIE, but it can be summarized in the following way: is a word attested in most or all branches of IE (or lacking that, languages in the opposite spectrum of IE), and if it is, can it's original meaning be reconstructed?

    In any case, the consensus is that the Proto-Indo-Europeans certainly knew silver (more precisely "that which is glittery"), gold (more precisely "that which is shiny") and "metal" (which may have been 'copper', 'bronze', or 'both').

    The last one deserves the most explanation, because the word *ajos (or *Hejos) is found only in Germanic (English "ore", German "Erz", Gothic "aiz"), Italic (Latin "aes") and Indo-Iranic (Avestan "ayah", Sanskrit "ayas" - both which may mean "iron" or "metal").
    I don't see why common words in IE languages for golds, silver and metal should discount the Anatolian hypothesis (which I don't advocate) since neolithic europe cultures had archaic metallurgy for gold, copper and silver. What if the proto IE had borrowed those words from Neolithic cultures of the Balkans since it is known that Cucuteni Trypolje had extensions in the Steppes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    There's no room here for your strange ethnic nationalism. You're getting an infraction now, and consider that you're running out of warnings.
    Strange!?!

    Well are we discussing here the Indo-Europeans? It's a great fact and all Indo-European speakers should know that the Medes were the first that put Indo-Europeans on the map. Later came the Persians and the Roman Empire (also all very hg. J2a heavy folks) , but the Medes were the first and every Indo-European speaker from Sweden to India should know that. That's a fact, isn't it? The Medes put Indo-Europeans on the map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    The Medes put Indo-Europeans on the map.
    What about the Mycenians, the Hittite etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    What about the Mycenians, the Hittite etc?
    Very good point and point taken, but was the Hittites homeland a small kingdom or a real empire?

    According to me there's a big difference between a small kingdom and an empire. Can we call Hittites kingdom an empire by modern standards?

    Then again we can also recall the Mittani (Aryan) superstate which was also located in Kurdistan. Or superstates of Indo-European Kassites, Gutians etc.

    When the Medes were an empire they were the only real SUPERPOWER in the world, forget Egypt, forget Babylon etc.. It was actually the first time when Indo-Europeans were the only superpower in the world, that's why according to me the Median Empire was the first Indo-European empire by the modern standards.

    The Medes modernised the meaning of an empire and the meaning of civil society, values within such an empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I don't see why common words in IE languages for golds, silver and metal should discount the Anatolian hypothesis (which I don't advocate) since neolithic europe cultures had archaic metallurgy for gold, copper and silver. What if the proto IE had borrowed those words from Neolithic cultures of the Balkans since it is known that Cucuteni Trypolje had extensions in the Steppes.
    First, it's really the combination of common words for metals, horse and wheel of the PIE "package" that narrows down the scenario. Second, you have to consider what the Anatolian Hypothesis actually states: that the first farmers of Europe spread agriculture to Europe would have been speakers of PIE. In that scenario, Neolithic cultures like Linear Pottery (LBK) and Printed Cardium Pottery are supposed to have already been Indo-European. And well, LBK certainly had no horses, no wheel, and no metal-working.

    In regard for borrowings, that's certainly viable (I mean, there's borrowings in absolutely every language), the critical question is: how can you borrow a word into most or all branches of a language family after it is already diversified, and it still conforms to the sound laws of the respective daughter language?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    In regard for borrowings, that's certainly viable (I mean, there's borrowings in absolutely every language), the critical question is: how can you borrow a word into most or all branches of a language family after it is already diversified, and it still conforms to the sound laws of the respective daughter language?
    The word for "Wine" was adopted in a lots of IE languages andnit was borrowed from semitic. My point is that common words for metallurgy (not for wheel) like Gold, Copper etc could have been spread by Danbian neolithic culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Very good point and point taken, but was the Hittites homeland a small kingdom or a real empire?

    According to me there's a big difference between a small kingdom and an empire. Can we call Hittites kingdom an empire by modern standards?

    Then again we can also recall the Mittani (Aryan) superstate which was also located in Kurdistan. Or superstates of Indo-European Kassites, Gutians etc.

    When the Medes were an empire they were the only real SUPERPOWER in the world, forget Egypt, forget Babylon etc.. It was actually the first time when Indo-Europeans were the only superpower in the world, that's why according to me the Median Empire was the first Indo-European empire by the modern standards.

    The Medes modernised the meaning of an empire and the meaning of civil society, values within such an empire.
    Who had the biggest impact on history? The Hittite or the Medes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    The word for "Wine" was adopted in a lots of IE languages andnit was borrowed from semitic. My point is that common words for metallurgy (not for wheel) like Gold, Copper etc could have been spread by Danbian neolithic culture
    Yes, "wine" is an example of what in linguistics is called a "wanderwort" (or "wandering word").

    Admittedly, if we play the devil's advocate, one surely can imagine PIE as a Neolithic language: if we say that a common word for "horse" existed, it doesn't automatically mean that horses were domesticated. If we say common words for "wheel" or "wheeled vehicle" existed, it doesn't automatically mean that they were drawn by horses (oxen can do that as well). And if we say that they knew copper, that doesn't automatically mean they knew metallurgy.

    It's possible to do that, but is it really plausible? We then push the date for PIE back potentially a couple of thousand years, and this has huge consequences for the ethnolinguistic nature of dozens of archaeological cultures.

    Also, with this being Eupedia, I must ask the obligatory question: what are the consequences of this on the genetics side? In that scenario we can firmly rule out both R1a and R1b as the original Haplogroups of the Indo-Europeans. Perhaps Haplogroup G2? We know that it was widespread in the Neolithic in Europe. In the case we let things slide there, we'd have to argue that the people of Treilles and Derenburg along with Ötzi were Indo-Europeans. You see where this is going...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Also, with this being Eupedia, I must ask the obligatory question: what are the consequences of this on the genetics side? In that scenario we can firmly rule out both R1a and R1b as the original Haplogroups of the Indo-Europeans. Perhaps Haplogroup G2? We know that it was widespread in the Neolithic in Europe. In the case we let things slide there, we'd have to argue that the people of Treilles and Derenburg along with Ötzi were Indo-Europeans. You see where this is going...

    And Ossetians (G2a) are supposed to have Scythians ancestors who are themselves supposed to have been R1a. Hitler, the Wright brother, Napoleon and Louis XVI had neither R1b nor R1a. Does it make them non IE. Also I think that one shouldn't draw any conclusion based on ancient dna until we have at least a sample size of 100 individuals tested. but that's not my point.

    Did the semitic word for wine travelled with semitic people? I don't think so because the word can travel as a product of trade like gold and copper in Neolithic europe. I already said that I wasn't talking about wheel but about metallurgy. Archaic metallurgy existed in Neolithic europe and there was extensive trade for Tin and copper at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Also, with this being Eupedia, I must ask the obligatory question: what are the consequences of this on the genetics side? In that scenario we can firmly rule out both R1a and R1b as the original Haplogroups of the Indo-Europeans. Perhaps Haplogroup G2? We know that it was widespread in the Neolithic in Europe. In the case we let things slide there, we'd have to argue that the people of Treilles and Derenburg along with Ötzi were Indo-Europeans. You see where this is going...
    As Maciamo said, most of G2a found in Europe are probably there since the Bronze age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    And Ossetians (G2a) are supposed to have Scythians ancestors who are themselves supposed to have been R1a, but that's not my point.
    As I said, playing devil's advocate...

    Did the semitic word for wine travelled with semitic people? I don't think so because the word can travel as a product of trade like gold and copper in Neolithic europe. I already said that I wasn't talking about wheel but about metallurgy. Archaic metallurgy existed in Neolithic europe and there was extensive trade for Tin and copper and that time.
    The reason why the word "wine" is perhaps the wanderwort par excellence is because it isn't restricted to IE or Semitic, but also for instance found in Kartvelic (Georgian). It is also peculiar because for instance it's clear that the word was introduced in both Germanic and Slavic because both the Proto-Germanic and Proto-Slavic people lived in areas where wine couldn't grow, so they clearly only knew wine as an imported product.

    Technically though, you can't be talking about "Neolithic" anymore in the strictest sense when you have metallurgy and copper/tin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I don't see why common words in IE languages for golds, silver and metal should discount the Anatolian hypothesis (which I don't advocate) since neolithic europe cultures had archaic metallurgy for gold, copper and silver. What if the proto IE had borrowed those words from Neolithic cultures of the Balkans since it is known that Cucuteni Trypolje had extensions in the Steppes.
    That is the difference, and the argue,
    the Eurasian Steppe is saying that IEans were from south urals Siberia or Nort East caucas and expand (major R1a) (scythian primary)
    while Anatolian Gives south west Caucas and split to East as Indo-Iranian families and West to Europeans (Hettit primary)
    the 1rst say that IE came from Asian steppes, the second that passed to Balkans from minor Asia (major R1b or J2)
    Goga is Supposing that Anatolian starting point is not South west Caucas but midlle east mountains of Kurdistan, (Medes primary)

    Taranis in the above post puts the question correct,
    Seems like Germanic Slavic Scythian are very well explained by the Steppe Hypothesis,
    while Greek Iranian etc from Anatolian Hypothesis



    The steppe case is saying that IE was a NORTH and East Caucas or Siberian Language that moved west and learned the Kurgan tripolye etc culture, and East and Create Sanshqrit tocharian etc
    1 branch the Hettits moved SOUTH from Georgia to minor-Asia and create the Greco-Aryan (Greek Armenian Kurdish etc)

    The Anatolian on the other hand is saying that primary IE was South Georgia and from there spread to east creating Indo-Iranian and to west giving celtic Greek etc
    so Tripolye Cucuteni etc was a culture that went North from South of Aimos and minor Asia

    the difference is that Steppe hypothesis is making older Germanic Slavic Baltic scythian as IE
    the Anatolian is making primary Greek Avestan Sanshqrit Latin Celtic etc

    Genetically the steppe one brings R1a while anatolian R1b and J2

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Strange!?!

    Well are we discussing here the Indo-Europeans? It's a great fact and all Indo-European speakers should know that the Medes were the first that put Indo-Europeans on the map. Later came the Persians and the Roman Empire (also all very hg. J2a heavy folks) , but the Medes were the first and every Indo-European speaker from Sweden to India should know that. That's a fact, isn't it? The Medes put Indo-Europeans on the map.
    The Medes is a exonym Given by the Greeks after Medea,
    Medea was from Colchis came to Greece and then went east and became priest of a tribe that spoke more closely the language of her father than the Greeks, the MEDES,
    so that means that Colchis spoke also IE same time,
    Genetically Colchis fits better as starting point of Anatolian Hypothesis than Medea,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    The Medes is a exonym Given by the Greeks after Medea,
    Medea was from Colchis came to Greece and then went east and became priest of a tribe that spoke more closely the language of her father than the Greeks, the MEDES,
    so that means that Colchis spoke also IE same time,
    Genetically Colchis fits better as starting point of Anatolian Hypothesis than Medea,
    Taranis banned me for 10 days.

    I'm not saying that the Medes are proto-Indo-Europeans. PIE-ans are much and much older than that.But I do believe that area which is nowadays dominated by the modern Iranic speaking Kurds was the homeland of Proto-Iranic folks.

    But it's true that I do believe that PIE is from a place somewhere where the ancient Colchis lived.
    But they moved to the Balkans and a new languaged (Proto-Indo-European) was born. According to me it's possible that the very first proto-Indo-European language (a hybrid between native European and Native Caucasian) was spoken somewhere between the Balkans and Greece.


    So I will wait 10 days until my ban is expired

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    so to clarify all this speculation, we are saying that the only european haplotype is I and that G2 came via caucus and or kurdistan assyrian lands. I did discover the raeti came to the alps via assyria and they have G2.

    J1 is from the levant and E from eastern anatolia

    N1 from Finland and baltic areas

    R1a from steppes

    R1b from central anatolia

    does this seem correct

    what about J2 is this a balkan european type

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    so to clarify all this speculation, we are saying that the only european haplotype is I and that G2 came via caucus and or kurdistan assyrian lands. I did discover the raeti came to the alps via assyria and they have G2.

    J1 is from the levant and E from eastern anatolia

    N1 from Finland and baltic areas

    R1a from steppes

    R1b from central anatolia

    does this seem correct

    what about J2 is this a balkan european type
    that is the problem there are some kind of J2b that exist from south France to India, but not in North, and that is why is rejected as primary IE in Steppe model, while it can be primary in the Anatolian one

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The Anatolian hypothesis simply does not work. Common words for horse, wheel/wagon, and metals have been reconstructed for Proto-Indo-Europeans, and the first farmers that entered Europe (which are supposed to have spoken PIE according to the Anatolian hypothesis) had none of that. It is thus pretty clear that these farmers cannot have been speakers of Proto-Indo-European.

    When talking about a refuted hypothesis, it might be also worth mentioning the Out-Of-India hypothesis which struggles with similar problems. The main problem with it that there are Dravidian loanwords in the Indic languages which are found in no other branch of Indo-European. If PIE originated in India, one would expect all branches of IE to show these Dravidian loanwords. So, it's pretty clear that this one does not work out, either.
    The Anatolian hypothesis works if we assume that the J2 farmers brought agriculture and language from the fertile crescent, but no horses or wheels or metals from there. These were imported by a second wave of IndoEuropeans who had migrated in the Pontic steppes and developed the wheel which was very useful in the vast plains there (unlike modern Turkey or the Balkans - don't forget that the wheel was not applied independently in South America either, because the landscape was not good for using it, although they did have toys with wheels) and also domesticated the horse and begun dealing with metallurgy as well - and then they used their inventions to wreck havoc in Europe, and then build their own civilizations.

    Since all of the cultures that they would have encountered, would not know of either horse or wheel or metallurgy, all of these cultures would adopt the words from those invaders, more or less.

    The last question would be, how did the IndoEuropean languages virtually dissapear from their cradle? Well, the same way Arabic and Turkish took over in there after the rise of Islam...

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    First, it's really the combination of common words for metals, horse and wheel of the PIE "package" that narrows down the scenario. Second, you have to consider what the Anatolian Hypothesis actually states: that the first farmers of Europe spread agriculture to Europe would have been speakers of PIE. In that scenario, Neolithic cultures like Linear Pottery (LBK) and Printed Cardium Pottery are supposed to have already been Indo-European. And well, LBK certainly had no horses, no wheel, and no metal-working.

    In regard for borrowings, that's certainly viable (I mean, there's borrowings in absolutely every language), the critical question is: how can you borrow a word into most or all branches of a language family after it is already diversified, and it still conforms to the sound laws of the respective daughter language?
    First of all, we are talking about scenarios about what the languages sounded back then, we have no written evidence. Beyond that it is very probable that the invaders from the Pontic steppes did impose their own IndoEuropean language in Europe, but only AFTER they had been forced to adopt an IndoEuropean language by previous invaders from the south (who used agriculture to expand)

    If the invaders from the Pontic steppes were the originators of the IndoEuropean language, one would expect plenty of Non IndoEuropean agricultural terms to have survived in areas which had agriculture before the invasion. This is far from unusual, the protoIndoEuropean word for sea is mare/more, but in Greek we say "Thalassa" (probably from "Thesis Alos" = place of salt) thus there are IndoEuropean words in Greek which have actually survived the Pontic invasion, until today...

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    I am not sure why you are bringing up Haplogroup J2 because thus far, we are lacking any ancient samples of it. If the Anatolian Hypothesis is correct, then it is pretty obvious that Haplogroup G2 must be "the" original Indo-European Y-Haplogroup: it has been consistently found in Neolithic sites in Europe and must be assumed as the dominant Y-Haplogroup of the European Neolithic. Note that this does not necessarily rule out J2 from entering Europe alongside G2 as an accessory Haplogroup, but I do not think so. Also, what do you make of Haplogroups R1a and R1b in this scenario, which both dominate Europe today? How do you explain that the linguistic landscape of Europe apparently changed so little after the Neolithic whereas the genetic landscape of Europe changed so much?

    The problem I have with this "secondary wave from the steppe" model is that it's essentially just recapitulating the Kurgan Hypothesis. To me, I have to admit, this also sounds a bit like a "surrender" by the Anatolianists onto the obviously unsolvable problems associated by their hypothesis. They cannot explain how the terminology in question could have arrived from the first farmers, so they assume a secondary spread, along the lines of the Kurgan hypothesis (steppe expansion). But this occurs thousands of years later: we would expect the various branches of Indo-European to already have diversified, and we thus should see evidence of borrowing in these "steppe words" because they should not apply to some early sound laws in the respective branches.

    In summary, it makes much more sense to assume that the Anatolian Hypothesis is wrong.

    By the way, you might want to check out this thread as well.

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