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Thread: (OFFTOPIC from I2a-Din on the Balkans)

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    (OFFTOPIC from I2a-Din on the Balkans)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I thing we going away from the subject,


    Thracian at least from the know vocabulary that is written in Hellenistic has nothing to do with Slavic neither with scythian
    but mostly with Greek Anatolian Germanic baltic, it was neither satem for me.
    no offense but there is no data for such conclusions...
    thracian words we know were recorded in greek which gives them greek look and feel but that doesnot mean they were originally similar to greek words in any way...


    there are 23 words in total that are recorded as thracian words... the rest is just guessing e.g. based on guessing the meaning of river names, town names...


    1. asa ‘colt’s foot (Tussilago farfara)’. That was its Bessian name according to Dioskurides.
    its about this plant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussilago_farfara
    i do not even know about this plant or its name in Serbian... i had to look on wikipedia to find out it is "podbel"
    ...if someone asked me to name it I would say it looks like "maslačak"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taraxacum
    , knowing that -čak is common ending for small plants and animals (e.g. različak, cvrčak, čičak..) root word would be masla
    which would to non speaker of the language such as Dioskurides easily sound like "asa"


    2. bólinthos ‘wild bull, bison’. The word is attested in Aristotle, according to whom that animal lived in the Messapian mountain, which separated the country of the Peonians from that of the Maideans (a Thracian tribe inhabiting the middle course of Struma and upper course of Mesta), and that the Peonians called it mónapos. Therefore, bolinthos was a Maidean, that is, a Thracian word. It is compared to the German Bulle ‘bull’ and is derived from the IE *bhn-ent.
    first one should discard greek ending that was likely added by Aristotle...
    so it is not bolinthos, but bolin

    PIE word
    vol = ox in serbian
    volina would be to tell person he is ox - rude, crude, harsh, stupid...




    3. bria ‘town’ (Strab.; Steph. Byz. under the word of Messembria). Both authors state the word was Thracian. It is often found as a second component of Thracian settlement names, for example: Messembria, Poltymbria, Slymbria, Skedabria, etc. The Thracian ‘bria’ is related to the Toch. A ri, B riye ‘town (a refuge on a hill)’ – from the IE *ri.
    -ija is typical Slavic ending for place names and area names....
    Holandija, Austrija, Srbija, Rusija, Belorusija...



    4. briza ‘spelt, rye’ (Gal. de alim. facult. 1, 13/6 p. 514. Kühn). The author (Galen) saw this plant in Thracia and in Macedonia and concluded the word was Thracian. It is very probable.
    PIE
    rye in english
    raž in slavic languages





    5. brynchós ‘guitar for the Thracians’ (Hesych.). The word is related to the Pol. brzek ‘a ringing, a tinkle’, Ukr. brjak ‘a ringing, a sound’.
    serbo-croat brundati = to talk/make noise with low frequency sounds ..
    e.g. the noise that a car engine makes


    maybe it was about bass guitar :)




    6. brytos (masc.), bryton (neuter) ‘a kind of ale from barley, a beer’ (Archil. Hecat. and others), brutos (Hesych.), bryttion (Herodian.). The word was used by the Thracians, the Peonians and the Phrygians. It is related to the Anglo-Saxon brod, Old-HighGerman prod ‘broth’.



    7. dinupula (sinupyla) ‘wild pumpkin’ (Pseudoap.). Opposite to the Dacian name of this plant kinuboila (Dioskur.) Pseudoapuleus noted that the Besses call it dinupula or sinupyla, the latter reconstructed from the text “Bessi nupyla” instead of “Bessi (si)nupyla”. Both names originate from the IE *k’un-bol, literally ‘dog’s apple’, which leads to the identical Lith. ùn-obuolas with the same meaning.

    dinja in serbo-croat, probably same in other Slavic


    8. génton ‘meat’ (Eust. ad Odyss. XIX 28 p. 1854; ad II. XII 25; Herodian., Suid., Hesych.) from the IE *ghen-to- ‘stabbed, cut’, Old-Ind. hata’- ‘hit, killed’.



    9. kalamíndar ‘plane-tree’ for the Thracian tribe of Edoni (Hesych.). Of unclear etymology.
    what?




    10. kemos ‘a kind of fruit with follicles’ (Phot. Lex.). Not interpreted.
    in fact this was perhaps about traditional food made of fruits
    the person without preknowledge of this food and procedure in which it is made, might describe the boiling fluid as something with follicles.


    PIE
    englis jam
    south slavic džem




    11. ktístai ‘Thracians, living in celibacy; monks’ (Strab.). There is no convincing etymology.
    -sta is common ending when classifying a group of people playing certain role, doing certain work...


    e.g. karatista = person with karate skills, statista = person that plays side role in a movie, scenarista = person that writes movie scripts....


    if -sta is common ending for person belonging to a wider group, than kti- is about celibacy


    kći = daughter


    ktistai could be coin word: kći (daughter) + (po)stati (to become)




    12. midne ‘village’, initially ‘a place of stay’. The word occurs in the Latin inscription from Rome, which speaks about a citizen of the province of Thracia and adds: Midne Potelense, stating in this way his place of origin (CIL, VI, Nr. 32567-2819). The publisher of the inscription proposed that this was the Thracian word for the Latin vicus ‘village’, which is very probable. There is an exact correspondence with the Latv. mitne ‘a place of stay, a dwelling, a shelter’ from the older *mutin.
    PIE

    village is extrapolation of meaning... it was word used to describe area from which someone was...

    PIE


    serbo-croat medju (among, between)- when describing a place roughly being in some area


    also
    english middle. median





    13. póltyn ‘a board fence, a board tower, a fortification of beams and boards’ (Etym. M.), from the IE *(s)p-tu-(n)-, compare with the Old-Icel. spjald (<*spel-to-s) ‘a board’, Anglo-Saxon speld ‘wood, log’, German spalten ‘to chop, to splinter’. The word is regarded as being Thracian because it is an element of the village name Poltym-bria, which is among the indisputably Thracian names ending on -bria.

    serbo-croat plot - fence made of wood


    14. rhompháia ‘a spear’, later ‘a sword’ (Plut. Aem. Paul. 18; Eust. ad II. VI 166; Hesych.). Other forms of the word are rumpia (Liv., Gell., Ascon. ad Mil.), romphea (Isid. Etym.), romphaea vel romfea (CGL 7, 212). W. Tomaschek listed the Bulg. roféja, rufja ‘a thunderbolt’ and the Alb. rrufë as derivatives of that word. It was also preserved in modern Greek as rhomphaia ‘a big broad sword’. The Thracian rhomphaia contains the IE stem *rump- in the Latin rumpo, -ere ‘to break, to tear’.
    PIE


    romb = geometrical figure that looks like spear
    english rhomb, rhombus




    15. skálm ‘a knife, a sword’ (Soph. y Pollux 10, 165; Marcus Anton., Hesych., Phot. Lex.). A. Fick compared this word with the Old-Icel. skolm ‘a short sword, a knife’ from the IE *skolm, a derivative from the IE stem *skel- ‘to cut’.

    PIE
    slavic skalpel
    english scalpel


    16. skárke ‘a silver coin for the Thracians’ (Hesych., Phot. Lex.) A. Fick explains it as ‘a jingling coin’ from the IE *skerg- ‘to jingle’, compare the Old-Norse skark ‘a noise’, Old-Ind. kharjati ‘to creak, to crunch’ from the IE *skoeg-.
    škrinja - croatian for box in which treasure is kept (english 'chest')




    17. spínos ‘a stone which burns when water is poured on it’ (Arist.). There are no interpretations.
    PIE


    slavic 'sapun' = english 'soap'


    18. torélle ‘a refrain of lament, mourn (song)’ (Hesych.). There is no acceptable etymology.



    19. zalmós ‘a hide’ (Porphyr.). It is related to the Old-Pruss. salmis ‘helm’, the Lith. sálmas;
    PIE
    slavic 'šlem' = english 'helmet'




    20. zeirá, zirá ‘a type of upper garment’ (Hdt., Xen., Hesych.). There are no acceptable etymologies.

    slavic 'zar' = english 'veil'
    note that this was often made of silk that was in ancient times produced by serians from Serica


    21. zelâs ‘wine’ (Choerob. 124, 11 Gaisf.), zlas (Cobeti excerpt e cod. Marc. 489), zeilá (Phot. Lex.), zílai (Hesych.). As related to it are given the Greek chális ‘pure (not watered down) wine’, the Mac. kálithos ‘wine’ (Hesych.), the Old-Ind. hla ‘brandy’. The Thracian zelâs can be also compared to the Lith. alas ‘red (for cattle)’, the Latv. zals ‘bright red, brown’, the Bret. gell ‘reddish, brown’, all from the IE *g’hel- ‘to shine’. Thus for the Thracians the wine got his name from its red colour.



    22. zetráia ‘a pot’ (Pollux). From the initial form *zeutraia from the IE *g’heutr- towards the IE stem *g’heu- ‘to pour’.




    23. zibythides ‘the noble Thracian men and women’ (Hesych.).
    A. Fick explains it as a Grecized form from the Lith. ibeti (ibù) ‘to shine, to light’. He interpreted it as a participle meaning ‘splendidus, illustris, erlaucht’
    and wrote it in the form zibynthides, which actually did not exist.
    Apart from the Greek ending -id-(es), the initial word zibut- has an exact parallel in the Lith. ibute ‘a fire, light’ and ‘something light’.
    But Fick was right translating the Thracian word as ‘most holy one’.
    serbo-croat šibice = matches


    I cannot say its a match, i cannot say it is not...
    there is simply not enough words attested to be thracian and with known meaning...

    I do not relate Thracians to I2a-din but mostly to originally R1a people on which E-V13 + J2 layer was superimposed later (when? with hellenic expansion or with roman expansion?) ... so original language and tribal name of Thracians was probably related to proto-Slavic people....

    I2a-Din spread along Danube, so it was probably present in northern Thracians, such as Triballi...regarding attempts to equate Serbs with Triballians... i can accept Triballi being perhaps of Serian stock...hence, Serb or Serian is a race name, Triballians is one of tribe names that might correspond to Terbunions - Serb tribe that settled south east Herzegovina...
    http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false
    Last edited by Taranis; 08-04-12 at 21:25. Reason: editing thread title

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