The origin and identity of the Sea Peoples

[Yetos]

8. Και οι νησιώται δε ήσαν όχι ολιγώτερον πειραταί. Κάρες όντες και Φοίνικες· διότι τοιούτοι λαοί κατώκησαν τας πλείστας των νήσων. Απόδειξις δε η εξής· καθαριζομένης της Δήλου υπό των Αθηναίων και εξαγομένων των θηκών όσαι ήσαν των εν τη νήσω αποθανόντων, εφάνησαν υπέρ το ήμισυ Κάρες, γνωσθέντες εκ τε της κατασκευής των μετ' αυτών συνταφέντων όπλων και του τρόπου δι' ου ακόμη και σήμερον θάπτουσι τους νεκρούς αυτών. Διοργανωθέντος δε του ναυτικού του Μίνωος, ευκολώτερον συνεκοινώνουν προς αλλήλους διά θαλάσσης· διότι οι εκ των νήσων κακούργοι απεδιώχθησαν υπ' αυτού, και περί τους χρόνους εκείνους κατώκισε τας πολλάς εξ αυτών. Και οι παρά την θαλασσαν άνθρωποι αποκτώντες ήδη περισσότερα χρήματα κατώκουν σταθερώτερον, καί τινες γινόμενοι πλουσιώτατοι περιεβάλλοντο με τείχη· επιθυμούντες δε τα κέρδη, και οι ασθενέστεροι υπέμενον την των ισχυροτέρων δουλείαν, και οι δυνατώτεροι έχοντες περιουσίας καθίστων υπηκόους τας μικροτέρας πόλεις. Και κατά τον τρόπον τούτον μάλλον τότε πλέον προοδεύσαντες εξεστράτευσαν βραδύτερον κατά της Τροίας.

[Taranis]

8. Και οι νησιώται δε ήσαν όχι ολιγώτερον πειραταί. Κάρες όντες και Φοίνικες· διότι τοιούτοι λαοί κατώκησαν τας πλείστας των νήσων. Απόδειξις δε η εξής· καθαριζομένης της Δήλου υπό των Αθηναίων και εξαγομένων των θηκών όσαι ήσαν των εν τη νήσω αποθανόντων, εφάνησαν υπέρ το ήμισυ Κάρες, γνωσθέντες εκ τε της κατασκευής των μετ' αυτών συνταφέντων όπλων και του τρόπου δι' ου ακόμη και σήμερον θάπτουσι τους νεκρούς αυτών. Διοργανωθέντος δε του ναυτικού του Μίνωος, ευκολώτερον συνεκοινώνουν προς αλλήλους διά θαλάσσης· διότι οι εκ των νήσων κακούργοι απεδιώχθησαν υπ' αυτού, και περί τους χρόνους εκείνους κατώκισε τας πολλάς εξ αυτών. Και οι παρά την θαλασσαν άνθρωποι αποκτώντες ήδη περισσότερα χρήματα κατώκουν σταθερώτερον, καί τινες γινόμενοι πλουσιώτατοι περιεβάλλοντο με τείχη· επιθυμούντες δε τα κέρδη, και οι ασθενέστεροι υπέμενον την των ισχυροτέρων δουλείαν, και οι δυνατώτεροι έχοντες περιουσίας καθίστων υπηκόους τας μικροτέρας πόλεις. Και κατά τον τρόπον τούτον μάλλον τότε πλέον προοδεύσαντες εξεστράτευσαν βραδύτερον κατά της Τροίας.

Yetos, I'm giving you a formal warning here: stop posting stuff in Greek without giving any translation. Most board members here do not speak read or can read the Greek alphabet. Next time, please provide a translation (or, when you just have individual words, provide a transliteration).

[Yetos]

Yetos, I'm giving you a formal warning here: stop posting stuff in Greek without giving any translation. Most board members here do not speak read or can read the Greek alphabet. Next time, please provide a translation (or, when you just have individual words, provide a transliteration).

Sory you are right But I could not find any translation

I can give a Summary on what is important.


the text is Thoukidides Book 1 1.3
for those who want exact translation

It say that when Atheneans took military action against the Thyrrenians in Lemnos (Lemnean Stele)
they identify them as ΚΑΡΕΣ kares Carians and Φοινικες Phoenisians especially their tombs and burial system was 50% Carian cause they knew the weapons-armor and how Carians bury their Dead.
But When King Minoas manage to make Navy the 'bad guys' (κακουργοι) where expelled by him.
Sorry for not Translating and also for not give the source,


I think it is obvious that Sea Peoples were not from the North and Black Sea, as also that were not IE as also the connection with Phoenician,

we probably Speak that Thyrrenians was a SW Minor Asian Culture that was cooperate with Phoenician or Relative to them. since not only in Lemnos but also in Pyrgi we find co-existance of Thyrrenians with Phoenicians

the co-existance of Phoenicians with Carians and Thyrrenians reminds us another co-existance of Hettit with Hattians.
that is why many times I compare Pelasgians with Hatti. besides the linguistic remnants.

my Personal thoughts
if we connect the above with Graiaoi (Γραιοι) of Homer or the Kyme Κυμη and their Alphabet.
which are considered as proto-Greeks Hellenes then we surely understand how and why the Latin Alphabet is considered as Greek alphabet and the modern Greek as Phoenician,
but is it?
the story of Minos also explains why Atheneans were obliged to pay tax to King Minos,
cause indeed they were Pelasgians defeated by him
now if we check the toponyms around Athens, and the area that is considered also as Pelasgian Argos we find a kind of Hattian language, but less 'bad guys'

So it seems like Pelasgians were Hattians, but under 2 roles or alliances,
1 is the peaceful pelasgian naval traders and farmers which lived in co-existance or under the rule of IE elit (compare Hettit-Hattians)
2 the 'naughty' Pelasgians which were Allied with Phoenicians and raid the cities and villages,

so the connection of Phoenicians to Sea-People is obvious but not 'Vertical' so to identify the Sea-peoples as Phoenicians,

so How Sea-peoples act?

here we might have 3 solutions
1) that sea-Peoples were not Naval but strong in land fight, and knew a certain metallurgy, and were used by Phoenicians in order to be transferred to attack,
2) Sea peoples were 'bad merchants' so they use Phoenician to sell their loot and products
3) Sea peoples were a kind of relatives with Phoenicians, mainly in Linguistic field,
something that leads us back to Ugaret, and a Split to west and east,

[how yes no 3]

Sory you are right But I could not find any translation

I can give a Summary on what is important.


the text is Thoukidides Book 1 1.3
for those who want exact translation

It say that when Atheneans took military action against the Thyrrenians in Lemnos (Lemnean Stele)
they identify them as ΚΑΡΕΣ kares Carians and Φοινικες Phoenisians especially their tombs and burial system was 50% Carian cause they knew the weapons-armor and how Carians bury their Dead.
Sorry for not Translating and also for not give the source,
But When King Minoas manage to make Navy the 'bad guys' (κακουργοι) where expelled by him.


I think it is obvious that Sea Peoples were not from the North and Black Sea, as also that were not IE as also the connection with Phoenician,

i will not comment until I read complete translation....
thing is a reference to "sea people" may in Greece and Egypt be about different times and different people.....

i noticed that text in Greek also mentions Troy, and that is a problem I have...

fall of Troy is by some dated around that time (Eratosthenes to 1184 BC, Herodotus to 1250 BC, Duris of Samos to 1334 BC), but i do not see it fitting in the story.... if it was in 1184 BC it is in mid of bronze age collapse and sea people story, but there are no cross references....

Etruscans moving out of Asia minor are around that time... 18 year long hunger described in http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html maps to )
and DNA study of Tuscan cattle breeds estimated to have happened around 1200BC....
(Pellecchia et al., The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA, Proceedings ofthe Royal Society Series B, vol. 274 (2007), pp. 1175–1179.)


i think Troy was much earlier or later...Etruscans fit the scenario.....18 years long hunger is good reason for big movement of people from north to south,,,,,note that it is movement to areas with warmer climate, which indicates that climate got suddenly cold.....

a candidate is 1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.
but 1159 BC is after sea peoples

so sea peoples movement could have been caused by something else....

The term invasion is used generally in the literature concerning the period to mean the documented attacks implying a local or unspecified origin. An origin outside the Aegean also has been proposed, as in this example by Michael Grant: "There was a gigantic series of migratory waves, extending all the way from the Danube valley to the plains of China."^[58]Such a comprehensive movement is associated with more than one people or culture; instead, a "disturbance" happens, according to Finley:^[59]

A large-scale movement of people is indicated ... the original centre of disturbance was in the Carpatho-Danubian region of Europe. ... It appears ... to have been ... pushing in different directions at different times.

If different times are allowed on the Danube, they are not in the Aegean: "all this destruction must be dated to the same period about 1200."^[59]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#cite_ref-54