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Thread: The origin and identity of the Sea Peoples

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    The origin and identity of the Sea Peoples



    In this thread, I would like to shed some light on the origin and ethnic identity of the enigmatic Sea Peoples, who were intricated into the collapse of the bronze age civilizations in the eastern Mediterranean in the 12th century BC. Our main account of the Sea Peoples comes from Egyptian sources - this is primarily because Egypt was one of the few civilizations that managed to survive the onslaught of the Sea Peoples (additionally, both the Hittite empire and the city state of Ugarit mention the Sea Peoples in earlier stages - until the destruction of both at the hands of the Sea Peoples). It has to be rembered that the Egyptian hieroglyphs worked much like an abjad (a pure consonant alphabet, akin to the Phoenician, Hebrew and Arabic alphabets), meaning that vowels were generally not represented, except for /i/ and /u/ (which could be represented by the letter "j" and "w", resectively). Additionally, the Egyptian script didn't distinguish between /l/ or /r/. This poses a huge problem because due to this, we know surprisingly little about the pronounciation of Ancient Egyptian (since modern Coptic is not particularly representative). And, this also means we have very little information about the pronounciation of the names of the Sea Peoples, which are attested as follows (usual transliteration in brackets):

    DʔJNJW (Denejen)
    JQʔWʔŠʔ (Ekwesh)
    PRSṮ (Peleset)
    RKW (Lukka)
    ŠʔRDN (Sherden or Shardana)
    ŠʔKRŠʔ (Shekelesh)
    ṮʔKʔR (Tjeker)
    TʔWRŠʔ (Teresh or Turisha)
    WʔŠʔŠʔ (Washash or Weshesh)

    We get the following tentative identifications for at least some of the names:

    The Denejen and Ekwesh are sometimes identified with the Danaans and Achaeans of the Greeks.

    Although their origins are unclear, the later fate of the Peleset can be traced, as they are probably same that appear as Philistines (Hebrew "פלשתים") in the Bible. Specifically, after their failed invasion of Egypt, the Peleset were resettled by the Egyptians in Canaan. Regarding the origin of the Peleset, they are sometimes linked with the "Pelasgoi" known to the ancient Greeks, but there is a problem with that. While the names are similar, there is the difference between the "t" in the Egyptian/Hebrew version and the "g" in the Greek version.

    The Lukka are also found in Hittite sources (spelled "lu-uk-ka-a" in cuneiform). They appear to be people native to Anatolia, and thus and they likely the same ethnic group that are centuries later known to the Greeks as Lycians.

    The Sherden may be, somewhat tentatively, the same as the ancient Sardinians. If the identification is correct, then the Sherden were the bearers of Sardinia's Nuraghic culture. Alternatively, the Sherden might be the same as the Lydians of Anatolia, who's capital city was Sardis. What speaks for a Central Mediterranean (as opposed to Anatolian) origin of these peoples is that they are mentioned in the inscription of Merneptah to have invaded from the west alongside with the Libyans (Berbers).

    In a somewhat similar manner, the Skekelesh may be the same as the Sicules, which gave their name to Sicily.

    The name Teresh/Turisha is sometimes identified as the same as Tyrsenoi, which was the Greek name for the Etruscans. The problem is just that: "Tyrsenoi" is an exonym, as the Etruscans refered to themselves as "Ras(e)na". One possible solution here is that the name "Tyrsenoi" originally refered to a different ethnic group, and that this name only came to be applied to the Etruscans later.

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    I initially thought the sea people where Phoenician, but I think they can only be Mycenean with sea attacks on Trojan lands, capturing of cities in anatolia, in the adriatic, against the minoans of crete, invasions of sicily etc etc.
    Hittite texts has a lot of the "mycenean raids".
    The myceneans became sea peoples because their lands in the Morea ( pelopennese) became too uninhabital at that time.

    Also, did the the hittite call trojan lands WASHASH and the town of Troy, Wilusa?

    When the Minoan civilization ended, the Mycenaean Greeks of the mainland dominated the Aegean as the Minoans had done before them. Like the Minoans, they engaged in overseas trade, especially in obtaining metals, such as copper and tin to make bronze. They may also have resorted to piracy and coastal raids. Distinctive Mycenaean pottery has been found over most of the eastern Mediterranean region and also to the west of Greece. Their artistic style incorporated many Minoan elements, and they used Linear B for administrative and record-keeping purposes.

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...aiders&f=false

    Tk3r around 1200, perhaps the Sikuli from Sicily
    Prwst(pelistshi) at the end of 12th century. The Philistians
    Shk3rsh around 1200, is another term for Sikuli
    WaShaSh are widely unknown, perhaps it is wrongly written for the Aqi-wasa
    MeShweSh seem to be a lybian people
    Sh3rd3n3, at 1345 around Byblos, perhaps the Sardi, from Sardinia
    Aqi-wasa is probably a name for Achaeans
    Luka, in the 13th century, probably Lykians
    Turisha, around 1200, perhaps the Tyrsenoi/Etruscans
    Tjehenu and Tjemehu seem to be lybian people
    Ekwesh, unknown
    Danu, mid of 14th century, perhaps the Danaeans or the town Adana

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    is Wilusa related to Ilyos?

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    The ends of several civilizations around 1175 BC have instigated a theory that the Sea Peoples may have caused the collapse of the Hittite, Mycenaean and Mitanni kingdoms. The American Hittitologist, Gary Beckman, writes on page 23 of Akkadica 120 (2000):[30]
    A terminus ante quem for the destruction of the Hittite empire has been recognised in an inscription carved at Medinet Habu in Egypt in the eighth year of Ramesses III (1175 BC). This text narrates a contemporary great movement of peoples in the eastern Mediterranean, as a result of which "the lands were removed and scattered to the fray. No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashiya on being cut off. [ie: cut down]"
    Ramesses' comments about the scale of the Sea Peoples' onslaught in the eastern Mediterranean are confirmed by the destruction of the states of Hatti, Ugarit, Ashkelon and Hazoraround this time. As the Hittitologist Trevor Bryce observes:[31]
    It should be stressed that the invasions were not merely military operations, but involved the movements of large populations, by land and sea, seeking new lands to settle.
    This situation is confirmed by the Medinet Habu temple reliefs of Ramesses III which show that:[31]
    the Peleset and Tjekker warriors who fought in the land battle [against Ramesses III] are accompanied in the reliefs by women and children loaded in ox-carts.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#cite_ref-28

    1) that was large scale movement of people, not just an attack from sea... land settlement from sea is hardly possible at that time.. think about how many ships are needed

    2) people were skilled in making wars

    3) "sea people" name come from attacking from the sea

    4) Sirbonis bog in Egypt is named after them presumably after Sherden

    5) order of conquer: Hatti, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashya, Egypt




    Hatti are first to fall....
    Carchemish is south of Hatti => attack probably originally came from Kurdish settled areas south of Black sea

    after Carchemish and hatti are down "sea people" have land connection between Black sea and Syria, after Arzawa is down they hold large sea coast areas in south of asia minor, so they could move ships from Black sea to that area..from there they spread to Alashya (Syria and all the way to the red sea) and attack Egypt from both land and sea, primarily from red sea area

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#cite_ref-28

    1) that was large scale movement of people, not just an attack from sea... land settlement from sea is hardly possible at that time.. think about how many ships are needed

    2) people were skilled in making wars

    3) "sea people" name come from attacking from the sea

    4) Sirbonis bog in Egypt is named after them presumably after Sherden

    5) order of conquer: Hatti, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashya, Egypt




    Hatti are first to fall....
    Carchemish is south of Hatti => attack probably originally came from Kurdish settled areas south of Black sea

    after Carchemish and hatti are down "sea people" have land connection between Black sea and Syria, after Arzawa is down they hold large sea coast areas in south of asia minor, so they could move ships from Black sea to that area..from there they spread to Alashya (Syria all the way to the red sea) and attack Egypt from both land and sea, primarily from red sea area
    so you think it ties with 'the great bronze age migrations"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 8mike View Post
    is Wilusa related to Ilyos?
    wilusa = ilusa = ilios = troy or trojan lands,
    homer used a name for the city and a name for the lands

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    In this thread, I would like to shed some light on the origin and ethnic identity of the enigmatic Sea Peoples, who were intricated into the collapse of the bronze age civilizations in the eastern Mediterranean in the 12th century BC. Our main account of the Sea Peoples comes from Egyptian sources - this is primarily because Egypt was one of the few civilizations that managed to survive the onslaught of the Sea Peoples (additionally, both the Hittite empire and the city state of Ugarit mention the Sea Peoples in earlier stages - until the destruction of both at the hands of the Sea Peoples). It has to be rembered that the Egyptian hieroglyphs worked much like an abjad (a pure consonant alphabet, akin to the Phoenician, Hebrew and Arabic alphabets), meaning that vowels were generally not represented, except for /i/ and /u/ (which could be represented by the letter "j" and "w", resectively). Additionally, the Egyptian script didn't distinguish between /l/ or /r/. This poses a huge problem because due to this, we know surprisingly little about the pronounciation of Ancient Egyptian (since modern Coptic is not particularly representative). And, this also means we have very little information about the pronounciation of the names of the Sea Peoples, which are attested as follows (usual transliteration in brackets):

    DʔJNJW (Denejen)
    JQʔWʔŠʔ (Ekwesh)
    PRSṮ (Peleset)
    RKW (Lukka)
    ŠʔRDN (Sherden or Shardana)
    ŠʔKRŠʔ (Shekelesh)
    ṮʔKʔR (Tjeker)
    TʔWRŠʔ (Teresh or Turisha)
    WʔŠʔŠʔ (Washash or Weshesh)

    We get the following tentative identifications for at least some of the names:

    The Denejen and Ekwesh are sometimes identified with the Danaans and Achaeans of the Greeks.

    Although their origins are unclear, the later fate of the Peleset can be traced, as they are probably same that appear as Philistines (Hebrew "פלשתים") in the Bible. Specifically, after their failed invasion of Egypt, the Peleset were resettled by the Egyptians in Canaan. Regarding the origin of the Peleset, they are sometimes linked with the "Pelasgoi" known to the ancient Greeks, but there is a problem with that. While the names are similar, there is the difference between the "t" in the Egyptian/Hebrew version and the "g" in the Greek version.

    The Lukka are also found in Hittite sources (spelled "lu-uk-ka-a" in cuneiform). They appear to be people native to Anatolia, and thus and they likely the same ethnic group that are centuries later known to the Greeks as Lycians.

    The Sherden may be, somewhat tentatively, the same as the ancient Sardinians. If the identification is correct, then the Sherden were the bearers of Sardinia's Nuraghic culture. Alternatively, the Sherden might be the same as the Lydians of Anatolia, who's capital city was Sardis. What speaks for a Central Mediterranean (as opposed to Anatolian) origin of these peoples is that they are mentioned in the inscription of Merneptah to have invaded from the west alongside with the Libyans (Berbers).

    In a somewhat similar manner, the Skekelesh may be the same as the Sicules, which gave their name to Sicily.

    The name Teresh/Turisha is sometimes identified as the same as Tyrsenoi, which was the Greek name for the Etruscans. The problem is just that: "Tyrsenoi" is an exonym, as the Etruscans refered to themselves as "Ras(e)na". One possible solution here is that the name "Tyrsenoi" originally refered to a different ethnic group, and that this name only came to be applied to the Etruscans later.
    I agree with most,

    but let me add some of my notices,

    Thyrsenoi are also named as Thyrrenoi and and their sea Τυρηναικη so according the Greek Alphabet we might, have connection of Tyros (Levant) as a non Phoenician but Thyrrenian-Pelasgian -Phillistine culture,

    Also the Faliski wich is a tribe in the S part of Etruscans.

    the island of Thera and Cycladetic civilization,

    the shaphran culture which in Greek is named 'krokos'

    the most possible is that we Speak about an minor Asia culture (a possible Hatti)

    in Greek writers we see that Athens was Pelasgian city, and its habitans spoke a language that is recogned to exist in Lemnos, (the lemnean stele) Miltiades is mentioned to destroy the last of the 'pirates' at about 500 BC
    Atheneans name the Etruscan also Pirates, cause they raid cities and steal, it known in History the raid in Athens and the steal of women,

    now comparing the words we see the bellow words
    Attica
    Orchomenos
    Eretreia
    Parnassus
    Parnis -Parnitha
    as also little more North mount Pelion Iolkos and Jason (Savor-similar Jesus) and the religion of Asklepios whose daughter is Iaso (Yeso?)
    all these are next to Achaians (Denejen ekwesh) and south of the area that is known as Pelasgian Argos.

    another evidence is the Alphabet which to both Nations is mentioned to be an invention of Cadmus (Arkado-Cypriot)

    so we probably speak about a minor Asian culture with more possible the Hattians, a West para-Ugaret-ic culture

    many times I spoke about the work of Yehunda, which is probably the remnants of the Etruscan Pelasgian and Ugaretic Aramaic language,

    Thanks,

    I wrote a thread about Pelasgians but nobody seems to read it,

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...ght=Pelasgians

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    conquest originally came from north shores of Black sea - Ukraine area...
    Strictly from memory: I remember an article published in a Ukrainian language archaeological journal back in 1991 which contended that around the end of the 13th c. BCE (ca. 1200 BCE) the Western part of the area of the Zrubna (Srubnaya) culture (this would be the territory between Dnipro and Danube) was largely depopulated... The only indication they had of where these people headed was in the fact that military headgear simila to that from graves of the Western Zrubna were apparently found as far south as Cyprus.

    It is thus possible that this unnamed people was a part of the "Sea Peoples" avalanche. Which of the Egyptian names could be attached to them (if any) is unknown. Perhaps some became a part of the historical Philistines. I was always intrigued by the fact that some 600 years after this avalanche the Scythians raided as far as Ashkelon, and that their Foundation Legend, as` reported by Herodotus, mentioned "Targitaus" as a first king, "1,000 years" prior to Darius' 513 BCE invasion of Scythia. Targitaus as an offspring of the viper-woman (some sort of equivalent of the Philistine Venus of Ashkelon, a fish-woman (mermaid) also known as Atargatis, the "Syrian goddess". There's food for some research here. Could be interesting connections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I initially thought the sea people where Phoenician, but I think they can only be Mycenean with sea attacks on Trojan lands, capturing of cities in anatolia, in the adriatic, against the minoans of crete, invasions of sicily etc etc.
    Hittite texts has a lot of the "mycenean raids".
    The myceneans became sea peoples because their lands in the Morea ( pelopennese) became too uninhabital at that time.

    Also, did the the hittite call trojan lands WASHASH and the town of Troy, Wilusa?

    When the Minoan civilization ended, the Mycenaean Greeks of the mainland dominated the Aegean as the Minoans had done before them. Like the Minoans, they engaged in overseas trade, especially in obtaining metals, such as copper and tin to make bronze. They may also have resorted to piracy and coastal raids. Distinctive Mycenaean pottery has been found over most of the eastern Mediterranean region and also to the west of Greece. Their artistic style incorporated many Minoan elements, and they used Linear B for administrative and record-keeping purposes.

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=RMj7M_tGaNMC&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=mycena ean+sea+peoples+raiders&source=bl&ots=jr1xw5kuca&s ig=Sz0B37U88B-OKZlO4YHOKc-5oVE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hPB9T8SVC4STiAfw1tCSDg&ved=0CCk Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=mycenaean sea peoples raiders&f=false

    Tk3r around 1200, perhaps the Sikuli from Sicily
    Prwst(pelistshi) at the end of 12th century. The Philistians
    Shk3rsh around 1200, is another term for Sikuli
    WaShaSh are widely unknown, perhaps it is wrongly written for the Aqi-wasa
    MeShweSh seem to be a lybian people
    Sh3rd3n3, at 1345 around Byblos, perhaps the Sardi, from Sardinia
    Aqi-wasa is probably a name for Achaeans
    Luka, in the 13th century, probably Lykians
    Turisha, around 1200, perhaps the Tyrsenoi/Etruscans
    Tjehenu and Tjemehu seem to be lybian people
    Ekwesh, unknown
    Danu, mid of 14th century, perhaps the Danaeans or the town Adana
    Then how can you explain that Myceneans were also destroyed by Sea peoples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Then how can you explain that Myceneans were also destroyed by Sea peoples?
    where does it say this?. I never heard about it.

    The odd thing is , when the trojan war finished, mycenean civilization ended not long after, this is same time as the sea peoples

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I initially thought the sea people where Phoenician,
    Why is that? The Phoenicians spoke a Semitic language, very similar to Hebrew, and they were natives of Canaan. Why should they be related with any of the Sea Peoples?

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#cite_ref-28

    1) that was large scale movement of people, not just an attack from sea... land settlement from sea is hardly possible at that time.. think about how many ships are needed

    2) people were skilled in making wars

    3) "sea people" name come from attacking from the sea
    How-yes-no, I've moved your other post into genetics (the I2a-Din thread) because I felt such a wild speculation that you read out of Maciamo's maps was highly unfounded and inappropriate here. There's no evidence that the Sea Peoples were Proto-Slavic, let alone Finnic as you seemed to imply in that post.

    Regarding the term 'Sea Peoples', one should bear in mind that this is an Egyptian exonym that came to be applied by scholars to all of the migrating peoples associated with the bronze age collapse, wether they arrived by sea or not. They clearly did so in Egypt, but the invasions that destroyed the Hittite empire or Ugarit clearly happened by land.

    It should also be added that the Sea Peoples mention in the Egyptian sources were obviously those that invaded Egypt. You can certainly assume that most of the Sea Peoples that were complicated in Anatolia were not the same as those in Egypt (the only ones where we really know that they certainly were in Anatolia were the Lukka).

    Carchemish is south of Hatti => attack probably originally came from Kurdish settled areas south of Black sea


    This makes no sense. The Kurds never lived at the Black Sea. The Kurds speak an Indo-Iranic language (today, somewhat distantly related with Persian, Ossetic and Pashtoo, and more distantly, Hindi, Urdu, Singhalese etc.). My opinion is that probably the Kurds belong into the same branch of Indo-Iranic as the language of the Medians, and may perhaps even be descended from the Median language, but evidence for this is too scarce (all evidence of the Median language comes from either Persian or Greek sources). In any case, the ancestors of the Kurds clearly arrived from the east, and they probably didn't arrive before the 1st millennium BC, and they were in any case completely uninvoled in the bronze age collapse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    where does it say this?. I never heard about it.

    The odd thing is , when the trojan war finished, mycenean civilization ended not long after, this is same time as the sea peoples
    Sea people's end at the time of Etruscans,
    I mean the time that Pelasgian moved from minor Asia and Aegean to Etruria we Speak about 900-1000 BC
    and the Dorians move from North Greece to South Greece and Start Hellenization of Athens.

    the date that is considered as fFinish of Pelasgians is the day that Kodros King of Athens died,
    and the last evidence is 500 AD when Miltiades enters Lemnos.
    as you see from Mycenes to Dorians we have about 2-3 centuries of non Hellenic culture,

    the last raid of Sea people is mentioned by Attheneans at about 8 Century BC when Lemneans raid and steal the women of Athens.


    that fits well with the bellow
    By 1200 BC the power of Mycenae was declining; during the 12th century, Mycenaean dominance collapsed. The destruction of Mycenae is part of the general Bronze Age collapse. Within a short time around 1200 BC, all the palaces of southern Greece were burned, including that at Mycenae.[6] This is traditionally attributed to a Dorian invasion of Greeks from the north, although some historians now doubt that such an invasion took place. Displaced populations escaped to former colonies of the Mycenaeans in Anatolia and elsewhere, where they came to speak the Ionic dialect. A further theory, mentioned by Egyptian hieroglyphs, is that the destruction of the palaces is related to the attacks of the mysterious Sea Peoples who destroyed the Hittite Empire and then attacked the 19th then the 20th dynasties of Egypt. Other theories have been that a drought caused the Mycenaean decline, but there is no climatological evidence for this. Amos Nur argues that earthquakes played a major role in the destruction of Mycenae and many other cities at the end of the Bronze Age.[10] However, no conclusive evidence has been brought forward to confirm any theory of why the Mycenaean citadel and others around it fell at this time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae

    the raiding in Greece by Sea paoples are even after Dorian invasion, since (I think is Herodotus) mention a last raid of Lemneans to Athens after the devastation of Dorians,

    the older discription about Pelasgians places them around and South of Ionia minor Asia next to Leleges Mostly south of Miletus, another story that is known to Hettit chronicles,

    it seems like Sea people at the time of Mursili attack and conquer Milletus
    Millawanda, Arzawa which was land of Achaians and in return Myceneans attack Troia

    it seems like the End of Sea peoples is connected with return of Temenides -Dorians, the move of Brygians to minor Asia, problably in open space that Pelasgians lived and abandoned by moving to Thyrrenian sea, All these dates and moves are connected as a puzzle, so the most possible is that Sea peoples stop they moved away from minor Asia, the most known is Etruscans not only in History but in genetic also.

    an interesting case is How Alexander treated Tyros in Levant and the connection of Tyros temples and religion with Makedonians
    Tyros Gordium and West Egypt are considered symbolic in the Alexander's campaign, Don't know why.
    Last edited by Yetos; 06-04-12 at 15:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    How-yes-no, I've moved your other post into genetics (the I2a-Din thread) because I felt such a wild speculation that you read out of Maciamo's maps was highly unfounded and inappropriate here. There's no evidence that the Sea Peoples were Proto-Slavic, let alone Finnic as you seemed to imply in that post.
    it is true that my post did not fit in linguistic section, but was quite on topic of sea people.... point is you cannot use linguistics only to figure out what happened 3200 year ago in Asia...

    I will put here link to that post, so that people can view my interpretation of the genetic side of the story
    in my opinion it supports quite well the version that I propose...

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post393994

    you didnot even bother to read carefully.... I in fact rulled out N as it doesnot show correlation with R1a and Q spreads... and N is not just Finnic anyway...it is wide spread in north of Asia....and we have no clue what could have been culture carrying N 3200 years ago..... btw. it is very likely that it came with proto-Turks to Asia minor

    We can debate how good are Maciamo's maps but they show clear correlation in expansion of R1a and Q from Ukraine to Kurdish areas to Syria. I think this fits well with sea peoples movement that was described as a conspiracy of northerners...






    This makes no sense. The Kurds never lived at the Black Sea. The Kurds speak an Indo-Iranic language (today, somewhat distantly related with Persian, Ossetic and Pashtoo, and more distantly, Hindi, Urdu, Singhalese etc.). My opinion is that probably the Kurds belong into the same branch of Indo-Iranic as the language of the Medians, and may perhaps even be descended from the Median language, but evidence for this is too scarce (all evidence of the Median language comes from either Persian or Greek sources). In any case, the ancestors of the Kurds clearly arrived from the east, and they probably didn't arrive before the 1st millennium BC, and they were in any case completely uninvoled in the bronze age collapse.
    How do you know that Kurds never lived at Black sea? you are extrapolating last thousand years to whole history before? How do you know they always spoke indo-iranian?

    what was the language in Spain, France, Romania before Roman conquest? in latin america? do you realize how silly is it to base hard claims about populations on language basis? did ancestors of Mexican clearly arrive from Spain? did ancestors of Spanish, French and Romanian people clearly arrive from town called Rome? you are mixing culture with ancestry of populations.... cultures and languages are contaiaious they move from one population to another and have their own history apart from the populations they are related to......

    I am still sure that Kurds are among Sherdana people....
    but it is quite possible that they have lived in area much before sea peoples conquest...

    I would point out to map of assumed movement of PIE speakers that puts homeland of those people into Kurdish areas....if Kurds always lived in that area than they would probably be original PIE speakers, and language transfer would not go from east iranic to them as you assume, but other way around - from them into Europe and Asia... I find this plausible scenario in correlation with some genetic clues...



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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    Strictly from memory: I remember an article published in a Ukrainian language archaeological journal back in 1991 which contended that around the end of the 13th c. BCE (ca. 1200 BCE) the Western part of the area of the Zrubna (Srubnaya) culture (this would be the territory between Dnipro and Danube) was largely depopulated... The only indication they had of where these people headed was in the fact that military headgear simila to that from graves of the Western Zrubna were apparently found as far south as Cyprus.

    this matches perfectly the scenario of sea peoples (also 1200 BC) described not just as military attacks but as settlement wave of northerners

    and it fits with genetics of R1a+Q moving towards south over Kurdish areas along Syria all the way to Egypt....

    can you find more about it?

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    Sea peoples from North?

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    correct me if i am wrong but Sicules should be of IE origin, right? Also there were Sicans in Sicily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 8mike View Post
    correct me if i am wrong but Sicules should be of IE origin, right? Also there were Sicans in Sicily.
    if this is accurate then it is not IE

    the Siculs , a tribe also associated with the Etruscans and mentioned on the victory Stella near Thebes

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    Quote Originally Posted by 8mike View Post
    correct me if i am wrong but Sicules should be of IE origin, right? Also there were Sicans in Sicily.
    No Sicilians were not IE until Greek Colonization, in Fact west Sicily was Colonised by Phoenicians. a Nation that considered relative to Sea-Peoples,

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    Quote Originally Posted by 8mike View Post
    correct me if i am wrong but Sicules should be of IE origin, right? Also there were Sicans in Sicily.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    if this is accurate then it is not IE

    the Siculs , a tribe also associated with the Etruscans and mentioned on the victory Stella near Thebes
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    No Sicilians were not IE until Greek Colonization, in Fact west Sicily was Colonised by Phoenicians. a Nation that considered relative to Sea-Peoples,
    Very little is known in general about the ancient languages of Sicily, but the island wasn't ethnically homogenous. The Sicules (who gave their name to Sicily) were Indo-Europeans, perhaps even speakers of an Italic language. For the other ethnic groups (the Sicani and Elymians), we do not know for certain, but it's likely that they were not Indo-Europeans at all. In particular, Diodorus of Sicily (book 5.6) claims that the Sicules arrived from Italy, and he cites that Philistus of Syracus claimed that the Sicani arrived from Iberia, whereas other ancient authoers claimed that they were autochtonous to Sicily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The Sherden may be, somewhat tentatively, the same as the ancient Sardinians. If the identification is correct, then the Sherden were the bearers of Sardinia's Nuraghic culture. Alternatively, the Sherden might be the same as the Lydians of Anatolia, who's capital city was Sardis. What speaks for a Central Mediterranean (as opposed to Anatolian) origin of these peoples is that they are mentioned in the inscription of Merneptah to have invaded from the west alongside with the Libyans (Berbers).

    can you provide quote of the translation from which you concluded that Sherdana were attacking from west? i've been looking a bit for translations and could not find anything alike...

    on other hand, a lake name in Egypt "Serbonian bog" that is related to Sherdana is on east....

    attacks from west could have easily happened in scenario that I describe....
    if one accepts that before attacking Egypt sea peoples have conquered Alashiya and according to this map Alashiya was stretching both east and west of Egypt with its core being east of Egypt.... so when they subjugated core of Alashiya they also took over its colonies west of Egypt and could transport army there as well and attack also from west....



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    I once read (i will try to find the source) that Sicani were great musicians and artists and the people of all over the isle and Italy use to go and listen to their music. It concludes that their name was cognate of μουσική.

    Also, no Pelasgians? Virgil says:

    "Siluano fama est ueteres sacrasse Pelasgos,
    aruorum pecorisque deo, lucumque diemque,
    qui primi finis aliquando habuere Latinos."

    Aeneis VIII

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    can you provide quote of the translation from which you concluded that Sherdana were attacking from west? i've been looking a bit for translations and could not find anything alike...

    You can check out the thesis by Woudhuizen: http://repub.eur.nl/res/pub/7686/Woudhuizen bw.pdf (Karnak Inscription of Merneptah on page 43).

    “[Year 5, 2nd month of] Summer, day (1), as follows:
    the wretched, fallen chief of Libya, Meryey, son of
    Ded, has fallen upon the country of Tehenu with his
    bowmen (…) Sherden, Shekelesh, Ekwesh, Lukka
    Teresh, taking the best of every warrior and every
    man of war of his country. He has brought his wife
    and his children (…) leaders of the camp, and he has
    reached the western boundary in the fields of Per-ire.”

    what? where did I say that Sherdana came from Sardinia? I said it could have been that from west coast of Asia minor much earlier in time they have spread to Sardinia
    now on west coast of Asia minor there is plenty of G and I2a
    It's pretty impossible that the ancestors of the modern-day Sardinians arrived from Asia Minor, because Sardinian I2a belongs to the subclade M26 which is found in Western Europe (in particular Basque Country, Catalonia), and *not* I2a-M423 which is found on the Balkans.
    Last edited by Taranis; 07-04-12 at 17:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You can check out the thesis by Woudhuizen: http://repub.eur.nl/res/pub/7686/Woudhuizen bw.pdf (Karnak Inscription of Merneptah on page 43).

    “[Year 5, 2nd month of] Summer, day (1), as follows:
    the wretched, fallen chief of Libya, Meryey, son of
    Ded, has fallen upon the country of Tehenu with his
    bowmen (…) Sherden, Shekelesh, Ekwesh, Lukka
    Teresh, taking the best of every warrior and every
    man of war of his country. He has brought his wife
    and his children (…) leaders of the camp, and he has
    reached the western boundary in the fields of Per-ire.”
    hm, ok... thanks..



    It's pretty impossible that the ancestors of the modern-day Sardinians arrived from Asia Minor, because Sardinian I2a belongs to the subclade M26 which is found in Western Europe (in particular Basque Country, Catalonia), and *not* I2a-M423 which is found on the Balkans.
    i said "could have been" and "much earlier"...

    we do not know what is the type of I2a on west coasts of Asia minor... there are no samples in familytreedna and as far as I know it was never tested further than I2...besides Sardinia, west coast of asia minor is key area where we have G and I2 in position that they were likely both dominant at some point in time (E and J are in my opinion later neolithic spreads in Asia minor ...so G+I2a must have departed and settled Sardinia some time before those two spreads entered Asia minor)... we also have place name Sardis that is likely of same root as word Sardinia... so it is quite plausible that west Asia minor and Sardinia are related spreads...

    when I introduced idea in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post393994 I said it is not likely..

    ("this is questionable but at that time they could perhaps still have been in language and culture considered the same tribe as people who settled Sardinia and west Mediteranean (probably much earlier and perhaps from west part of Asia minor).. "



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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    hm, ok... thanks..

    i said "could have been" and "much earlier"...

    we do not know what is the type of I2a on west coasts of Asia minor... there are no samples in familytreedna and as far as I know it was never tested further than I2...besides Sardinia, west coast of asia minor is key area where we have G and I2 in position that they were likely both dominant at some point in time... we also have place name Sardis that is likely of same root as word Sardinia... so it is quite plausible that west Asia minor and Sardinia are related spreads...

    to explain G and I2a thing - the way I see it, west coast of Asia Minor (including also area where later town Sardis appeared) was in ancient times dominantly I2a and G area (E and J are later spreads), so this could have been place from which long ago I2a and G spread to Sardinia... but when I introduced idea in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post393994 I said it is not likely..

    ("this is questionable but at that time they could perhaps still have been in language and culture considered the same tribe as people who settled Sardinia and west Mediteranean (probably much earlier and perhaps from west part of Asia minor).. "


    Consider that the parent clade of I2a-M26 and I2a-423 existed some time back in the Neolithic, or earlier. To assume that I2a only spread to Sardinia during the Bronze Age makes no sense because the clade is clearly older.

    in any case you are above replying to a post that you have deleted and that post was reply to your own post that you have deleted (perhaps because it turned out that your arguments were weak... )
    will you also reply to other parts of the post when you figure out arguments that will make opinions that you have stated (and deleted) look less underdeveloped...
    I haven't deleted it, I've merely moved it into this offtopic thread, since I figured that a discussion abouts Kurds, origin of the Proto-Indo-Europeans, etc. would be severely offtopic from the original thread topic. The only neglegience that you can accuse me off is that I forgot to add a message on this end.

    Besides, if I had deleted it, there would be a message in it's place saying "deleted by Taranis".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I haven't deleted it, I've merely moved it into this offtopic thread, since I figured that a discussion abouts Kurds, origin of the Proto-Indo-Europeans, etc. would be severely offtopic from the original thread topic. The only neglegience that you can accuse me off is that I forgot to add a message on this end.

    Besides, if I had deleted it, there would be a message in it's place saying "deleted by Taranis".
    yes, i have seen it and deleted that part of my comment...
    sorry for misunderstanding...

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Consider that the parent clade of I2a-M26 and I2a-423 existed some time back in the Neolithic, or earlier. To assume that I2a only spread to Sardinia during the Bronze Age makes no sense because the clade is clearly older.
    but I didnot assume it was in Bronze age... that is why I said "perhaps from west part of Asia minor" and "much earlier".... and we are yet to see whether I2a in west coast of Asia minor is M26... I would not exclude it, as M26 obviously used sea a lot (it is present in large part of Mediterannean coasts)

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