The origin and identity of the Sea Peoples

I once read (i will try to find the source) that Sicani were great musicians and artists and the people of all over the isle and Italy use to go and listen to their music. It concludes that their name was cognate of μουσική.

Also, no Pelasgians? Virgil says:

"Siluano fama est ueteres sacrasse Pelasgos,
aruorum pecorisque deo, lucumque diemque,
qui primi finis aliquando habuere Latinos."

Aeneis VIII
 
can you provide quote of the translation from which you concluded that Sherdana were attacking from west? i've been looking a bit for translations and could not find anything alike...


You can check out the thesis by Woudhuizen: http://repub.eur.nl/res/pub/7686/Woudhuizen bw.pdf (Karnak Inscription of Merneptah on page 43).

“[Year 5, 2nd month of] Summer, day (1), as follows:
the wretched, fallen chief of Libya, Meryey, son of
Ded, has fallen upon the country of Tehenu with his
bowmen (…) Sherden, Shekelesh, Ekwesh, Lukka
Teresh, taking the best of every warrior and every
man of war of his country. He has brought his wife
and his children (…) leaders of the camp, and he has
reached the western boundary in the fields of Per-ire.”

what? where did I say that Sherdana came from Sardinia? I said it could have been that from west coast of Asia minor much earlier in time they have spread to Sardinia
now on west coast of Asia minor there is plenty of G and I2a

It's pretty impossible that the ancestors of the modern-day Sardinians arrived from Asia Minor, because Sardinian I2a belongs to the subclade M26 which is found in Western Europe (in particular Basque Country, Catalonia), and *not* I2a-M423 which is found on the Balkans.
 
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You can check out the thesis by Woudhuizen: http://repub.eur.nl/res/pub/7686/Woudhuizen bw.pdf (Karnak Inscription of Merneptah on page 43).

“[Year 5, 2nd month of] Summer, day (1), as follows:
the wretched, fallen chief of Libya, Meryey, son of
Ded, has fallen upon the country of Tehenu with his
bowmen (…) Sherden, Shekelesh, Ekwesh, Lukka
Teresh, taking the best of every warrior and every
man of war of his country. He has brought his wife
and his children (…) leaders of the camp, and he has
reached the western boundary in the fields of Per-ire.”
hm, ok... thanks..



It's pretty impossible that the ancestors of the modern-day Sardinians arrived from Asia Minor, because Sardinian I2a belongs to the subclade M26 which is found in Western Europe (in particular Basque Country, Catalonia), and *not* I2a-M423 which is found on the Balkans.
i said "could have been" and "much earlier"...

we do not know what is the type of I2a on west coasts of Asia minor... there are no samples in familytreedna and as far as I know it was never tested further than I2...besides Sardinia, west coast of asia minor is key area where we have G and I2 in position that they were likely both dominant at some point in time (E and J are in my opinion later neolithic spreads in Asia minor ...so G+I2a must have departed and settled Sardinia some time before those two spreads entered Asia minor)... we also have place name Sardis that is likely of same root as word Sardinia... so it is quite plausible that west Asia minor and Sardinia are related spreads...

when I introduced idea in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...to-the-Balkans&p=393994&viewfull=1#post393994 I said it is not likely..

("this is questionable but at that time they could perhaps still have been in language and culture considered the same tribe as people who settled Sardinia and west Mediteranean (probably much earlier and perhaps from west part of Asia minor).. "


 
hm, ok... thanks..

i said "could have been" and "much earlier"...

we do not know what is the type of I2a on west coasts of Asia minor... there are no samples in familytreedna and as far as I know it was never tested further than I2...besides Sardinia, west coast of asia minor is key area where we have G and I2 in position that they were likely both dominant at some point in time... we also have place name Sardis that is likely of same root as word Sardinia... so it is quite plausible that west Asia minor and Sardinia are related spreads...

to explain G and I2a thing - the way I see it, west coast of Asia Minor (including also area where later town Sardis appeared) was in ancient times dominantly I2a and G area (E and J are later spreads), so this could have been place from which long ago I2a and G spread to Sardinia... but when I introduced idea in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...to-the-Balkans&p=393994&viewfull=1#post393994 I said it is not likely..

("this is questionable but at that time they could perhaps still have been in language and culture considered the same tribe as people who settled Sardinia and west Mediteranean (probably much earlier and perhaps from west part of Asia minor).. "


Consider that the parent clade of I2a-M26 and I2a-423 existed some time back in the Neolithic, or earlier. To assume that I2a only spread to Sardinia during the Bronze Age makes no sense because the clade is clearly older.

in any case you are above replying to a post that you have deleted and that post was reply to your own post that you have deleted (perhaps because it turned out that your arguments were weak... )
will you also reply to other parts of the post when you figure out arguments that will make opinions that you have stated (and deleted) look less underdeveloped...

I haven't deleted it, I've merely moved it into this offtopic thread, since I figured that a discussion abouts Kurds, origin of the Proto-Indo-Europeans, etc. would be severely offtopic from the original thread topic. The only neglegience that you can accuse me off is that I forgot to add a message on this end.

Besides, if I had deleted it, there would be a message in it's place saying "deleted by Taranis".
 
I haven't deleted it, I've merely moved it into this offtopic thread, since I figured that a discussion abouts Kurds, origin of the Proto-Indo-Europeans, etc. would be severely offtopic from the original thread topic. The only neglegience that you can accuse me off is that I forgot to add a message on this end.

Besides, if I had deleted it, there would be a message in it's place saying "deleted by Taranis".
yes, i have seen it and deleted that part of my comment...
sorry for misunderstanding...

Consider that the parent clade of I2a-M26 and I2a-423 existed some time back in the Neolithic, or earlier. To assume that I2a only spread to Sardinia during the Bronze Age makes no sense because the clade is clearly older.

but I didnot assume it was in Bronze age... that is why I said "perhaps from west part of Asia minor" and "much earlier".... and we are yet to see whether I2a in west coast of Asia minor is M26... I would not exclude it, as M26 obviously used sea a lot (it is present in large part of Mediterannean coasts)
 
8. Και οι νησιώται δε ήσαν όχι ολιγώτερον πειραταί. Κάρες όντες και Φοίνικες· διότι τοιούτοι λαοί κατώκησαν τας πλείστας των νήσων. Απόδειξις δε η εξής· καθαριζομένης της Δήλου υπό των Αθηναίων και εξαγομένων των θηκών όσαι ήσαν των εν τη νήσω αποθανόντων, εφάνησαν υπέρ το ήμισυ Κάρες, γνωσθέντες εκ τε της κατασκευής των μετ' αυτών συνταφέντων όπλων και του τρόπου δι' ου ακόμη και σήμερον θάπτουσι τους νεκρούς αυτών. Διοργανωθέντος δε του ναυτικού του Μίνωος, ευκολώτερον συνεκοινώνουν προς αλλήλους διά θαλάσσης· διότι οι εκ των νήσων κακούργοι απεδιώχθησαν υπ' αυτού, και περί τους χρόνους εκείνους κατώκισε τας πολλάς εξ αυτών. Και οι παρά την θαλασσαν άνθρωποι αποκτώντες ήδη περισσότερα χρήματα κατώκουν σταθερώτερον, καί τινες γινόμενοι πλουσιώτατοι περιεβάλλοντο με τείχη· επιθυμούντες δε τα κέρδη, και οι ασθενέστεροι υπέμενον την των ισχυροτέρων δουλείαν, και οι δυνατώτεροι έχοντες περιουσίας καθίστων υπηκόους τας μικροτέρας πόλεις. Και κατά τον τρόπον τούτον μάλλον τότε πλέον προοδεύσαντες εξεστράτευσαν βραδύτερον κατά της Τροίας.
 
8. Και οι νησιώται δε ήσαν όχι ολιγώτερον πειραταί. Κάρες όντες και Φοίνικες· διότι τοιούτοι λαοί κατώκησαν τας πλείστας των νήσων. Απόδειξις δε η εξής· καθαριζομένης της Δήλου υπό των Αθηναίων και εξαγομένων των θηκών όσαι ήσαν των εν τη νήσω αποθανόντων, εφάνησαν υπέρ το ήμισυ Κάρες, γνωσθέντες εκ τε της κατασκευής των μετ' αυτών συνταφέντων όπλων και του τρόπου δι' ου ακόμη και σήμερον θάπτουσι τους νεκρούς αυτών. Διοργανωθέντος δε του ναυτικού του Μίνωος, ευκολώτερον συνεκοινώνουν προς αλλήλους διά θαλάσσης· διότι οι εκ των νήσων κακούργοι απεδιώχθησαν υπ' αυτού, και περί τους χρόνους εκείνους κατώκισε τας πολλάς εξ αυτών. Και οι παρά την θαλασσαν άνθρωποι αποκτώντες ήδη περισσότερα χρήματα κατώκουν σταθερώτερον, καί τινες γινόμενοι πλουσιώτατοι περιεβάλλοντο με τείχη· επιθυμούντες δε τα κέρδη, και οι ασθενέστεροι υπέμενον την των ισχυροτέρων δουλείαν, και οι δυνατώτεροι έχοντες περιουσίας καθίστων υπηκόους τας μικροτέρας πόλεις. Και κατά τον τρόπον τούτον μάλλον τότε πλέον προοδεύσαντες εξεστράτευσαν βραδύτερον κατά της Τροίας.

Yetos, I'm giving you a formal warning here: stop posting stuff in Greek without giving any translation. Most board members here do not speak read or can read the Greek alphabet. Next time, please provide a translation (or, when you just have individual words, provide a transliteration).
 
Yetos, I'm giving you a formal warning here: stop posting stuff in Greek without giving any translation. Most board members here do not speak read or can read the Greek alphabet. Next time, please provide a translation (or, when you just have individual words, provide a transliteration).

Sory you are right But I could not find any translation

I can give a Summary on what is important.


the text is Thoukidides Book 1 1.3

for those who want exact translation

It say that when Atheneans took military action against the Thyrrenians in Lemnos (Lemnean Stele)
they identify them as ΚΑΡΕΣ kares Carians and Φοινικες Phoenisians especially their tombs and burial system was 50% Carian cause they knew the weapons-armor and how Carians bury their Dead.
But When King Minoas manage to make Navy the 'bad guys' (κακουργοι) where expelled by him.
Sorry for not Translating and also for not give the source,


I think it is obvious that Sea Peoples were not from the North and Black Sea, as also that were not IE as also the connection with Phoenician,

we probably Speak that Thyrrenians was a SW Minor Asian Culture that was cooperate with Phoenician or Relative to them. since not only in Lemnos but also in Pyrgi we find co-existance of Thyrrenians with Phoenicians

the co-existance of Phoenicians with Carians and Thyrrenians reminds us another co-existance of Hettit with Hattians.
that is why many times I compare Pelasgians with Hatti. besides the linguistic remnants.

my Personal thoughts
if we connect the above with Graiaoi (Γραιοι) of Homer or the Kyme Κυμη and their Alphabet.
which are considered as proto-Greeks Hellenes then we surely understand how and why the Latin Alphabet is considered as Greek alphabet and the modern Greek as Phoenician,
but is it?
the story of Minos also explains why Atheneans were obliged to pay tax to King Minos,
cause indeed they were Pelasgians defeated by him
now if we check the toponyms around Athens, and the area that is considered also as Pelasgian Argos we find a kind of Hattian language, but less 'bad guys'

So it seems like Pelasgians were Hattians, but under 2 roles or alliances,
1 is the peaceful pelasgian naval traders and farmers which lived in co-existance or under the rule of IE elit (compare Hettit-Hattians)
2 the 'naughty' Pelasgians which were Allied with Phoenicians and raid the cities and villages,

so the connection of Phoenicians to Sea-People is obvious but not 'Vertical' so to identify the Sea-peoples as Phoenicians,

so How Sea-peoples act?

here we might have 3 solutions
1) that sea-Peoples were not Naval but strong in land fight, and knew a certain metallurgy, and were used by Phoenicians in order to be transferred to attack,
2) Sea peoples were 'bad merchants' so they use Phoenician to sell their loot and products
3) Sea peoples were a kind of relatives with Phoenicians, mainly in Linguistic field,
something that leads us back to Ugaret, and a Split to west and east,
 
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Sory you are right But I could not find any translation

I can give a Summary on what is important.


the text is Thoukidides Book 1 1.3

for those who want exact translation

It say that when Atheneans took military action against the Thyrrenians in Lemnos (Lemnean Stele)
they identify them as ΚΑΡΕΣ kares Carians and Φοινικες Phoenisians especially their tombs and burial system was 50% Carian cause they knew the weapons-armor and how Carians bury their Dead.
Sorry for not Translating and also for not give the source,
But When King Minoas manage to make Navy the 'bad guys' (κακουργοι) where expelled by him.


I think it is obvious that Sea Peoples were not from the North and Black Sea, as also that were not IE as also the connection with Phoenician,

i will not comment until I read complete translation....
thing is a reference to "sea people" may in Greece and Egypt be about different times and different people.....

i noticed that text in Greek also mentions Troy, and that is a problem I have...

fall of Troy is by some dated around that time ( Eratosthenes to 1184 BC, Herodotus to 1250 BC, Duris of Samos to 1334 BC), but i do not see it fitting in the story.... if it was in 1184 BC it is in mid of bronze age collapse and sea people story, but there are no cross references....

Etruscans moving out of Asia minor are around that time... 18 year long hunger described in http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html maps to )
and DNA study of Tuscan cattle breeds estimated to have happened around 1200BC....
(Pellecchia et al., The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA, Proceedings ofthe Royal Society Series B, vol. 274 (2007), pp. 1175–1179.)


i think Troy was much earlier or later...Etruscans fit the scenario.....18 years long hunger is good reason for big movement of people from north to south,,,,,note that it is movement to areas with warmer climate, which indicates that climate got suddenly cold.....

a candidate is 1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.
but 1159 BC is after sea peoples

so sea peoples movement could have been caused by something else....


The term invasion is used generally in the literature concerning the period to mean the documented attacks implying a local or unspecified origin. An origin outside the Aegean also has been proposed, as in this example by Michael Grant: "There was a gigantic series of migratory waves, extending all the way from the Danube valley to the plains of China."[58]Such a comprehensive movement is associated with more than one people or culture; instead, a "disturbance" happens, according to Finley:[59]
A large-scale movement of people is indicated ... the original centre of disturbance was in the Carpatho-Danubian region of Europe. ... It appears ... to have been ... pushing in different directions at different times.
If different times are allowed on the Danube, they are not in the Aegean: "all this destruction must be dated to the same period about 1200."[59]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#cite_ref-54



 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#cite_ref-28

1) that was large scale movement of people, not just an attack from sea... land settlement from sea is hardly possible at that time.. think about how many ships are needed

2) people were skilled in making wars

3) "sea people" name come from attacking from the sea

4) Sirbonis bog in Egypt is named after them presumably after Sherden

5) order of conquer: Hatti, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashya, Egypt

772px-Amarnamap.png



Hatti are first to fall....
Carchemish is south of Hatti => attack probably originally came from Kurdish settled areas south of Black sea

after Carchemish and hatti are down "sea people" have land connection between Black sea and Syria, after Arzawa is down they hold large sea coast areas in south of asia minor, so they could move ships from Black sea to that area..from there they spread to Alashya (Syria and all the way to the red sea) and attack Egypt from both land and sea, primarily from red sea area

look at position of Hatti state...it was first to fall..it couldnot have been just sea people...it must have been big land wave as well...
northerners from all sides..
 
Balkanic people settled in Anatolia...Phyrigians, Mysians etc..
 
The sea people were probably from mainland western Europe, excellent seamen and warriors with horned helmets. Arriving in Sardinia from France, Spain, and northern Italy and then pushing into the east Mediterranean from western Europe. I wouldn't expect a very large contribution of "Sherden" in the Middle East, Africa, or even Greece, but perhaps DF27+ is a marker of these warriors. Perhaps they spoke some form of Italo-Celtic and were most likely the builders of nuraghe as well.
 
The sea people were probably from mainland western Europe, excellent seamen and warriors with horned helmets. Arriving in Sardinia from France, Spain, and northern Italy and then pushing into the east Mediterranean from western Europe. I wouldn't expect a very large contribution of "Sherden" in the Middle East, Africa, or even Greece, but perhaps DF27+ is a marker of these warriors. Perhaps they spoke some form of Italo-Celtic and were most likely the builders of nuraghe as well.

What are the papers upon which you based this conclusion?
 
From what i know Nuragic was a Basque-like language with some indoeuropean loanwords like mara, pala etc... That paper posted in the other thread about the Sea peoples however says that Osco-Umbrian is attested in Bronze age Crete
 
Oscoumbrian in bronze age Crete?

The only language attested in bronze age Crete is Mycenean Greek which was enscribed in the Linear B script, while Linear A has never been decyphered, so we don't know what language it conveyed, but it probably wasn't an Indoueropean one.
 
Oscoumbrian in bronze age Crete?

The only language attested in bronze age Crete is Mycenean Greek which was enscribed in the Linear B script, while Linear A has never been decyphered, so we don't know what language it conveyed, but it probably wasn't an Indoueropean one.

AN ‘ETEOCRETAN’ INSCRIPTION FROM PRAISOS AND THE HOMELAND OF THE SEA PEOPLES

Luuk de Ligt

The whereabouts of the homeland or homelands of the so-called Sea Peoples have been endlessly debated. This article re-examines this problem by looking at one of the ‘Eteocretan’ inscriptions from the town of Praisos. It is argued that this text is written in an Indo-European language belonging to the OscanUmbrian branch of the Italic language family. Based on this finding it is suggested that this language must have arrived in eastern Crete during the Late Bronze Age, when Mycenaean rulers recruited groups of mercenaries from Sicily, Sardinia and various parts of the Italian peninsula. When the Mycenaean state system collapsed around 1200 BC, some of these groups moved to the northern Aegean, to Cyprus and to the coastal districts of the Levant. It is also suggested that this reconstruction explains the presence of an Etruscan-speaking community in sixth-century-BC Lemnos. An interesting corollary of this theory is that the Sea Peoples were present in the Mycenaean world some considerable time before its collapse in the early twelfth century

http://www.talanta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/TAL-40-412008-2009-pag-151-172-DeLigt.pdf
 
Hello everyone! :)
Thanks for accepting me to your community.
I'll do some reading first - and I'm sure some writing will come later...
 
As to the Sea Peoples' names provided by the Egyptians, in many cases, we don't know whether they designate where they came from or simply where they ended up. The Philistines are clearly an example of the latter - we don't know where they came from or even whether they were a single people. The Egyptians would have been familiar with the peoples of the Achaean basin and eastern Mediterranean Sea, including the Greeks (Danaans and Achaeans), but probably not much further afield than that.
 

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