Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: correlation between R1a and Q as indicator of population spreads from Ukraine area...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    03-03-12
    Posts
    212
    Points
    1,827
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,827, Level: 11
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Ethnic group
    Serbian
    Country: Netherlands



    correlation between R1a and Q as indicator of population spreads from Ukraine area...



    there is a noteable correlation in spreads of R1a and Q on the maps below...
    do you think it is coincidence of spreads taking same paths or there is a real link in two spreads...

    for me it suggests that Q was incorporated by R1a population in Ukraine area and has spread from there to several directions throughout the history:

    1) to Baltic, along Baltic to south part of Scandinavia and to north most coastal areas of Germany
    2) from 1) to south France
    3) to Kurdish areas and Syria (this wave I relate to bronze age collapse and "sea peoples")










    note that the assumption above suggests that relative absence of Q in south Slavic countries indicates that they do not origin from Ukraine area... in fact this is further enforced with I2a Din south typical for south Slavs not being found in Ukraine except in its most northwest corner....

    similar holds for west Slavs...relatively low Q indicates they do not origin from Ukraine, which is further enforced with R1a- M458 being more rare in Ukraine....


    point is this indicates that west Slavs east Slavs and south Slavs seems to have quite different ancestry......which contradicts linguistic approaches that suggest a sudden expansion from a single area based on the observation that the difference between Slavic languages is not really significant.... what do you think about it?

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    4,289
    Points
    26,893
    Level
    50
    Points: 26,893, Level: 50
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 657
    Overall activity: 99.2%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    I did notice similarities of both HG especially in the West and North spread, or some Southern hot spots. I was going to post that, but first I needed to answer few questions and observations.

    1. Is Q in Scandinavia same as in Ukraine?
    2. How precise is the map? At low level below 4%, and lack of samples from eastern Europe, this current map might be too vague to draw proper conclusion.
    3. If Q in Ukraine is from Tatars/Mongols then it means that it showed up later after Slavic expansion, therefore it doesn't contradicts movement of I2-Dinaric from east. Hotspot in Pannonia/Hungary can attest to it.
    4. Spread to West and North resembles very much Corded Ware/Battle Axe cultural reach of R1a. If this is correct than I2 Dinaric is Neolithic and was always in Balkans.
    5. Generally Q is very old and in Europe it might be a conglomeration of different Q subclades, arriving in thousand year intervals, giving us a faulty view at the moment.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I did notice similarities of both HG especially in the West and North spread, or some Southern hot spots. I was going to post that, but first I needed to answer few questions and observations.

    1. Is Q in Scandinavia same as in Ukraine?
    2. How precise is the map? At low level below 4%, and lack of samples from eastern Europe, this current map might be too vague to draw proper conclusion.
    3. If Q in Ukraine is from Tatars/Mongols then it means that it showed up later after Slavic expansion, therefore it doesn't contradicts movement of I2-Dinaric from east. Hotspot in Pannonia/Hungary can attest to it.
    4. Spread to West and North resembles very much Corded Ware/Battle Axe cultural reach of R1a. If this is correct than I2 Dinaric is Neolithic and was always in Balkans.
    5. Generally Q is very old and in Europe it might be a conglomeration of different Q subclades, arriving in thousand year intervals, giving us a faulty view at the moment.
    it also proves R1a is not slavic and also I2-DIN, as I believe was in central europe, basically hungarian and west austria area.

    Q as mongol is yes, Tatars? ....who are these?......I was taught they are germanics that became asiatics ie, mixing with hunnic, sarmatian and mongols

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    there is a noteable correlation in spreads of R1a and Q on the maps below...
    do you think it is coincidence of spreads taking same paths or there is a real link in two spreads...

    for me it suggests that Q was incorporated by R1a population in Ukraine area and has spread from there to several directions throughout the history:

    1) to Baltic, along Baltic to south part of Scandinavia and to north most coastal areas of Germany
    2) from 1) to south France
    3) to Kurdish areas and Syria (this wave I relate to bronze age collapse and "sea peoples")










    note that the assumption above suggests that relative absence of Q in south Slavic countries indicates that they do not origin from Ukraine area... in fact this is further enforced with I2a Din south typical for south Slavs not being found in Ukraine except in its most northwest corner....

    similar holds for west Slavs...relatively low Q indicates they do not origin from Ukraine, which is further enforced with R1a- M458 being more rare in Ukraine....


    point is this indicates that west Slavs east Slavs and south Slavs seems to have quite different ancestry......which contradicts linguistic approaches that suggest a sudden expansion from a single area based on the observation that the difference between Slavic languages is not really significant.... what do you think about it?
    what you are saying is what I told you over a week ago, that south slavs as pure slavs is false and they are slavic ONLY via language and not DNA .
    FTDNA has found very little ( less than 2% ) of R1a in south slavic areas. Granted this is solely from their thousands of tested people, what still over time this figure will change very little.
    West slavs are slavs ie Poles from east of Kiev as that is their birthplace.

  5. #5
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdriveVeteran
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,924
    Points
    20,073
    Level
    43
    Points: 20,073, Level: 43
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 677
    Overall activity: 92.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c PF3881+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It's always difficult to draw conclusions from analyses based only on modern frequencies. Here, I'm particularly unsure of the history of the spread of Q in Europe. I haven't read any attempts to separate it into subclades, date it, or find diversity hotspots. If anyone knows of such an analysis, it could help us here tremendously.

    I see some correlation between I2a-Din and R1a, with some caveats. For one, several R1a subclades had already spread out (in the late Neolithic, think Corded Ware) to Central Europe before I2a-Din began, so it's only some R1a that I2a-Din correlates with. Also, it's fairly clear that where I2a-Din and R1a spread together, I2a-Din was the dominant partner in Southern routes, and R1a was the dominant partner in Northern routes. I continue to find that pattern consistent with the Slavs. As for Q... I wish there were more Q experts around.

  6. #6
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    4,289
    Points
    26,893
    Level
    50
    Points: 26,893, Level: 50
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 657
    Overall activity: 99.2%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post

    Q as mongol is yes, Tatars? ....who are these?......I was taught they are germanics that became asiatics ie, mixing with hunnic, sarmatian and mongols
    Tatars where Turkic speaking people. They came together with Mongol's Golden Horde to Europe and destroyed Kiev Rus. Most of them settled north of Black Sea around 13 hundreds, later called Crimean Khanate.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars



    Stalin has sent them back to Siberia.

    The were related to Bulgars.

  7. #7
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    4,289
    Points
    26,893
    Level
    50
    Points: 26,893, Level: 50
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 657
    Overall activity: 99.2%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Sparkey is right, we need to know subclades of Q before we could pull any conclusions. Main Q is about 20k years old, that's a lot of time for Q people to wonder back and forth few times.

    This is interesting (link below). Press different Q subclades to show on the map, one at the time. Then press Q1b Ashkenazy, ...then say "wow".
    http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/hg-maps/

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-02-12
    Posts
    34
    Points
    511
    Level
    5
    Points: 511, Level: 5
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 39
    Overall activity: 63.0%


    Country: Czech Republic



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Sparkey is right, we need to know subclades of Q before we could pull any conclusions. Main Q is about 20k years old, that's a lot of time for Q people to wonder back and forth few times.

    This is interesting (link below). Press different Q subclades to show on the map, one at the time. Then press Q1b Ashkenazy, ...then say "wow".
    http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/hg-maps/
    You had it right the first time.
    Q is CERTAINLY a artifact of the golden horde who would have occupied this region brutally and left progeny.

    there is no mystery in any way shape or form, and the Q is not a fellow traveller with the R1a-(at least m458)

    It is the well known and documented legacy of that regions occupation by a intruder.

  9. #9
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdriveVeteran
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,924
    Points
    20,073
    Level
    43
    Points: 20,073, Level: 43
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 677
    Overall activity: 92.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c PF3881+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    You had it right the first time.
    Q is CERTAINLY a artifact of the golden horde who would have occupied this region brutally and left progeny.
    Even Jewish Q? What evidence do you have to come to this certainty?

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    03-03-12
    Posts
    212
    Points
    1,827
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,827, Level: 11
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Ethnic group
    Serbian
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    You had it right the first time.
    Q is CERTAINLY a artifact of the golden horde who would have occupied this region brutally and left progeny.

    there is no mystery in any way shape or form, and the Q is not a fellow traveller with the R1a-(at least m458)

    It is the well known and documented legacy of that regions occupation by a intruder.
    so you are trying to say that golden horde left Q1b1 progeny in north Germany crossed to south Scandinavia than went to south France and on other side it went to Kurdistan and Syria....

    golden horde never got that far, nor it stayed long enough in Europe to leave traceable genetic impact....it was in my opinion some earlier wave from same direction that settled black sea coasts and was absorbed by R1a people that settled there and spread further with those R1a people...if the scenario I propose is correct, than Q1b1+ R1a in areas of Europe and middle East can be used to trace R1a movement from Ukraine area....

    while Ashkenazi Jews have somewhat elevated Q perhaps due to Khazar state that accepted Judaism, we cannot interpret Q in Europe as Jewish people influence... because their influence was scattered around Europe and didnot move through Europe in straight lines... and because Q is not anywhere near to dominant in Ashkenazi, so in order to get observed percentages of Q we woul dneed to settle Jews on straight line from Scandinavia to south France and than select the ones not carrying Q haplogroups and replace them with local people and R1a people..

    in my opinion Q was absorbed by R1a in Ukraine area and the correlated spreads of R1a and Q are about some military conquest settlement wave starting from Ukraine earlier in past... though I do not believe it ( as I believe that PIE was originally language of haplogroup I and was spread in north and west Europe by I1 and I2b giving centum, and in Asia and east Europe by I2a giving satem variant), it may have even be path of PIE people...

    btw. note also that Vandals and Alans who settled in Spain were pushed to south first to Andalusia in south Spain and than further to north Africa, from where they probably eventually migrated to Sicily and Sardinia coasts that were part of their kingdom in last stage of their mention in history.. Q shows this pattern - south Spain, and south most sea coast of Sicily and Sardinia....

    it is reasonable to assume that Vandals and Alans, who moved to Spain in times before the areas from which they origin came under control of Huns, could carry with them Q only if it was in their origin area before arrival of Huns....

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    754
    Points
    5,152
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,152, Level: 21
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 398
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    there is a noteable correlation in spreads of R1a and Q on the maps below...
    do you think it is coincidence of spreads taking same paths or there is a real link in two spreads...

    for me it suggests that Q was incorporated by R1a population in Ukraine area and has spread from there to several directions throughout the history:

    1) to Baltic, along Baltic to south part of Scandinavia and to north most coastal areas of Germany
    2) from 1) to south France
    3) to Kurdish areas and Syria (this wave I relate to bronze age collapse and "sea peoples")










    note that the assumption above suggests that relative absence of Q in south Slavic countries indicates that they do not origin from Ukraine area... in fact this is further enforced with I2a Din south typical for south Slavs not being found in Ukraine except in its most northwest corner....

    similar holds for west Slavs...relatively low Q indicates they do not origin from Ukraine, which is further enforced with R1a- M458 being more rare in Ukraine....


    point is this indicates that west Slavs east Slavs and south Slavs seems to have quite different ancestry......which contradicts linguistic approaches that suggest a sudden expansion from a single area based on the observation that the difference between Slavic languages is not really significant.... what do you think about it?
    Maybe Q has been introduced later by the Varangians, who are known for trading at long distances. A buddha statue has been once found in a swedish site. The occurence of Q outside of Ukraine can be explained quite well by Varangian/Viking slaves, soldiers or expert craftsmans from far away. Q matches well the Viking settlements in Britain, Island, Faroer and Orcadian. Sicily hot-spot might be from Asians brought by the Normans. For the west alps hotspot I have no idea. Maybe its from Vikings too, who used the Rhine as highway.
    Ukraine was also heavily visited by Varangians (Kievan Rus). But there are also alternative candidates for Q in Ukraine: Kingdom of Cuman, Khazar Khaganate ("Jewish"?), Tatars,...

    ... just some ideas

  12. #12
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    4,289
    Points
    26,893
    Level
    50
    Points: 26,893, Level: 50
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 657
    Overall activity: 99.2%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    btw. note also that Vandals and Alans who settled in Spain were pushed to south first to Andalusia in south Spain and than further to north Africa, from where they probably eventually migrated to Sicily and Sardinia coasts that were part of their kingdom in last stage of their mention in history.. Q shows this pattern - south Spain, and south most sea coast of Sicily and Sardinia....

    it is reasonable to assume that Vandals and Alans, who moved to Spain in times before the areas from which they origin came under control of Huns, could carry with them Q only if it was in their origin area before arrival of Huns....
    I was tempted too to fall in this conclusion, but I checked other hg first. Andalusia, where Q is present in Spain, have no hg I except M26. So it is impossible for any tribe from north side of Black Sea to bring Q but no I2a2a and no I1, especially when Q is smaller than I1 and much smaller than I2a Din, not mentioning very low level of R1a at 3% in Andalusia.
    Another spot with Q is Basque, and again no I and no R1a connection with Black Sea.

  13. #13
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    4,289
    Points
    26,893
    Level
    50
    Points: 26,893, Level: 50
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 657
    Overall activity: 99.2%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    To get really somewhere with Q analyses, first we would need to establish if subclade of Q in Scandinavia is the same or mostly the same as Q in Ukraine. In this scenario it would have possible Neolithic or Bronze Age connection, maybe through Battle Axe culture. It would also mean that Ukraine wasn't I2a-Din homeland.

    I think that most likely Scandinavian and Ukrainian Q is of different origin, and from different epochs. Ukraine had a very good chance to accumulate Q from recent historic events. Any hunic, turkic, mongol, tatar tribe could bring it here. There were many of them and wave after wave, and this was an accumulative effort from 5th century to 15th century of CE.
    In this case I2a-Din homeland in Ukraine is still very viable.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    03-03-12
    Posts
    212
    Points
    1,827
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,827, Level: 11
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Ethnic group
    Serbian
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Maybe Q has been introduced later by the Varangians, who are known for trading at long distances. A buddha statue has been once found in a swedish site. The occurence of Q outside of Ukraine can be explained quite well by Varangian/Viking slaves, soldiers or expert craftsmans from far away. Q matches well the Viking settlements in Britain, Island, Faroer and Orcadian. Sicily hot-spot might be from Asians brought by the Normans. For the west alps hotspot I have no idea. Maybe its from Vikings too, who used the Rhine as highway.
    Ukraine was also heavily visited by Varangians (Kievan Rus). But there are also alternative candidates for Q in Ukraine: Kingdom of Cuman, Khazar Khaganate ("Jewish"?), Tatars,...

    ... just some ideas
    could be... but I think it may have been Vikings for UK and north Germany but was not Vikings for south France and Syria...... also not for south Spain as it was just subject to viking raids....well note that it must be either population with lot of Q leaving small impact or population with little Q (like Jews or Vikings) leaving close to 100% impact on the area... Vikings also do not make sense for southeast France hotspot... Huns would be a population with possibly lot of Q leaving small impact... but they cover only Ukraine... Vikings as having low Q need to have large settlement to leave significant Q impact and that did probabbly happen in UK and north Germany but is not likely in other places we look...





    on map of Vikings above, green are not settlements but places they raided...orange and red are settlements...Vikings do cover patch north of Ukraine as there is settlement (red) on roughly same place...

    actually, Normans are descended from Vikings... and they were present in Antiochia - in Q area but somewhat more north from hotspot on Maciamo's map... and they were also in Sicily.. but as well in south Italy in Normandy that do not have elevated Q....thing is they were not pure Vikings so they had Q diluted in other haplogroups and losing itself as a noise..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans






    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    To get really somewhere with Q analyses, first we would need to establish if subclade of Q in Scandinavia is the same or mostly the same as Q in Ukraine. In this scenario it would have possible Neolithic or Bronze Age connection, maybe through Battle Axe culture. It would also mean that Ukraine wasn't I2a-Din homeland.

    I think that most likely Scandinavian and Ukrainian Q is of different origin, and from different epochs. Ukraine had a very good chance to accumulate Q from recent historic events. Any hunic, turkic, mongol, tatar tribe could bring it here. There were many of them and wave after wave, and this was an accumulative effort from 5th century to 15th century of CE.
    In this case I2a-Din homeland in Ukraine is still very viable.
    in family tree dna:

    in Scandinavia it is Q1a3

    (also a sample in north Africa that originates from Gibraltar is Q1a3, sample on Atlantic coast of France and in Croatia...)

    in UK it is Q1a3 (as expected from above) , single Q1a2 as well

    in Denmark single Q1a3

    in Ukraine and east Europe mostly Q1b1, Q1b1a single Q1a3

    in Germany also mostly Q1b1,Q1b1a except one Q1a3 in Essen and one nearby in Hesse...

    the line that goes to west Alps in France Q1b1, Q1b1a with single Q1a3

    in Caucasus single Q1a3, single Q1a2, and two Q1b1a

    in middle East Q1b1a in Israel, in Antiochia 2 Q1b1a and one Q1a3 (from Vikings via Norman?)... in Iraq two Q1b1a

    so the one in middle east is the same as in Ukraine,east Europe and in line from Germany to south France...

    to me the correlation of R1a and Q1b1 still looks as a possible marker of movement from Ukraine, as neither Huns nor Golden horde never got to south France or to middle east



    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    754
    Points
    5,152
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,152, Level: 21
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 398
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    Vikings as having low Q need to have large settlement to leave significant Q impact and that did probabbly happen in UK and north Germany but is not likely in other places we look...
    Of course. I meant that Vikings might have hired or robbed Asians from far away, but not necessarily bringing them always to Scandinavia, but straight to the new Viking locations in Europe instead. Those travelling Vikings might have been more multicultural than those left at home in Scandinavia. Sounds far fetched, but it actually happened quite often in history, for instance certain steppe peoples joined the Goths later, or many slavs were led by an Awar elite about 600 CE, or more recently Serbs being moved by the Austrians to Vojvodina(?) for military purposes against Turks.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    03-03-12
    Posts
    212
    Points
    1,827
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,827, Level: 11
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Ethnic group
    Serbian
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Of course. I meant that Vikings might have hired or robbed Asians from far away, but not necessarily bringing them always to Scandinavia, but straight to the new Viking locations in Europe instead. Those travelling Vikings might have been more multicultural than those left at home in Scandinavia. Sounds far fetched, but it actually happened quite often in history, for instance certain steppe peoples joined the Goths later, or many slavs were led by an Awar elite about 600 CE, or more recently Serbs being moved by the Austrians to Vojvodina(?) for military purposes against Turks.
    I do think it is unlikely that Vikings would drag Asians all the way to Alps....

    anyway, there seems to still be correlation between R1a and Q1b1


    btw. Serbs were not moved to Austro-Hungarian empire...they have moved because there they could have been regular citizens while under Turkish rule they were in position of person without any rights that can be killed for no reason.... also being on military frontier of Austro-Hungarian empire paid of well and was opportunity to revenge to Turks and perhaps help liberation from Turks one day.... whole military area had special status as long as it was needed...once Turkey got weak...Serbs in military frontier (military frontier was in Croatia along Sava river and in Lika, not in Vojvodina) were flushed into being in Croatian administrative unit.... that's where recent war in Croatia come from... war in Croatia was war of military frontier settlers and the rest of Croatia that suddenly made them minority in its new constitution while during Yugoslavia they were constituent nation in Croatia.... Croatia has 1/3 of teritory where Serbs were dominant since 15th century till last wars in 1990s when they became refuges without real opportunity to go back as the ones who did would randomly end up in jails charged for "war crimes" ...so there is now 1/3 of Croatia that is more or less empty with very old people and some Croat settlers from Herzegovina.....

  17. #17
    Junior Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-05-10
    Posts
    2

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Q1a3* (M3- L213+)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H*

    Ethnic group
    Alsatian Sundgau
    Country: Canada-Newfoundland-Labrador



    If it's of any use to this thread, I'm in yHaplogroup Q and my patrilineal great grandfather (Auguste Erbland) came from Alsace, specifically the area around Sondersdorf, in what is now Haut-Rhin, Dept 68, France.
    What is interesting to me is that the location of my great grandfather's birth is just northeast of the Q "hotspot" shown on the maps in this thread.

    My designation according to the current ISOGG yDNA tree is Q1a3a3a, based upon the following testing:
    P36.2+ L56+ L57+ M346+ L53+ L54+ L55+ L213+ L232+ M3- M323- L329+ L330+ L331+ L332+ L333+ L334+ Z780-. I'm currently awaiting results for a test of L942.

    I have a website for the Erbland surname from Alsace (erbland.org) but the other three Erbland's who have tested are all R1b1b. Many Erbland's still live in Haut-Rhin. My y-DNA haplotype matches fairly closely to a number of "Eggleston" males who seem to have roots in England and Ireland.

    My 111 Marker y-haplotype is shown here: erbland.org/results.htm

    Any thoughts on the frequency of Q in southern Alsace?

    Mardon (Erbland)

Similar Threads

  1. Tour de Ukraine // Welcome to Ukraine!
    By zemi_san in forum Eastern Europe
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 25-11-13, 17:57
  2. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 28-09-13, 08:04
  3. Schengen - passport free area
    By GorazdR in forum European News & Hot Topics
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 27-08-13, 11:53
  4. Population crisis!
    By edao in forum Opinions
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 23-12-11, 14:42
  5. Interesting correlation R1a/ostrogaths
    By Regulus in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-11-10, 16:44

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •