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Thread: Deep Y-DNA subclades tested in Northern Spain & Gascony (including R1b subclades)

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    Post Deep Y-DNA subclades tested in Northern Spain & Gascony (including R1b subclades)



    Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al. (2012) studied the frequencies of Y-haplogroups in the Spanish and French Basque country, Gascony, Navarra, La Rioja, northern Aragon, Cantabria, and northern Castille & Leon. There are 835 samples, making it the biggest and most detailed study for the region so far.

    I have attached the table with the full results. The Basque regions are:

    French Basque country

    ZMX : Lapurdi/Nafarroa Beherea (west)
    NLA : Nafarroa Beherea (central)
    SOU : Zuberoa (east)

    Spanish Basque country

    GUI : Gipuzkoa (east)
    GSO : Southwestern Gipuzkoa
    ALA : Alava (south)
    BBA : Bizkaia (west)
    BOC : Western Bizkaia

    Navarre

    RON : Roncal, Nafarroa (North-Eastern Navarre)
    NCO : Central/Western Nafarroa
    NNO : North/Western Nafarroa


    Haplogroup R1b

    One major find is that 16.3% of the 558 Basque men tested (both Spanish and French + Navarra) belonged to R1b-L21, so far associated with the British Isles and Northwest France. It is only 1/5 of all Basque R1b, but is nevertheless significant.

    In Gascony, 10.75% of men belonged to R1b-L21, while it was 8.5% in the regions of Spain bordering the Basque country. Cantabria had 0% though.

    The typically Basque and Spanish R1b-M153 was found in 15.4% of the Basques, and about 8.5% in surrounding regions (again 0% in Cantabria).

    The other main Iberian R1b subclade, SRY2627, is considerably lower among the Basques (6%) than the Gascons (12%) and other North Spaniarrds (11.7%). M153 and SRY2627 seem to have opposite patterns.

    The most common R1b subclade was the pan-Italo-Celtic P312 (S116), which peaked at 42.3% in the Basques, and is found in 37.3% of the Gascons and 35.3% from Aragon to Cantabria.

    There were only traces of the Germanic R1b-U106 (S21) : 11 samples out of 835, or 1.3%. However 6 of these samples were in Gascony (France). The 1% of I1 is consistent with that.


    The Alpine Celtic and Italic R1b-U152 (S28) was tested along with two of its subclades (L2 and L20). There is no particular pattern for any of them. L2 is found at low frequencies everywhere. There were only a few samples of L20 and U152* (among the Basques all four in North Western Nafarroa). In total, U152 and suclades made up 2.3% of Basque lineages, 2.5% of Gascon lineages and 4.2% of those between Aragon and Cantabria.

    Haplogroup I

    The other main haplogroup of the Basques is of course I2a1a (M26, formerly I2a1), which reaches 6.6% among the Basques, with a peak at 17% at Zuberoa and 12% at Lapurdi Nafarroa, both in the French Basque country.

    One surprise is the astonishingly high percentage of I2a2a (M223, formerly I2b) in Gascony (5.7%), reaching a staggering 9% in Bigorre (central-north Pyrénees) and 7% in Chalosse (north-west Pyrenees) - the highest percentage outside central Germany ! In sharp contrast, I2a2a is under 0.5% in Northeast Spain, as if the Pyrenees were a barrier to its progression. But who brought I2a2a to Gascony ? The Franks ? The equally high percentage of R1b-U106 in Chalosse points in this direction, or at least a Germanic source. Had I2a2a been Paleolithic or even had it come with the Bronze Age Celts, it would have spread to eastern Spain in greater number. This would mean that I2a2a may not have been found in Southwest Europe since the Paleolithic after all, but is a truly Germanic haplogroup like I1.

    Other haplogroups

    Let's note also the almost complete absence of haplogroup R1a, T and G among the Basques (only 2 G samples and 1 T sample), confirming the old discussion on the topic.

    The most common subclade of E1b1b among the Basques is the Northwest African E-M81 (1.25%) followed by the North African E-V65 (1%). Other subclades are just found at trace frequencies, even E-V13 (only 1 sample).

    On the J front, the Basques have a reasonable amount of J2a (1.6%), but very little J2b (0.35%), even less than J1 (0.55%).

    The absence of E-V13, T and G2a would suggest that these three haplogroups migrated together, presumably during the Neolithic. On the other hand, the presence of J2 alongside a similar frequency of R1b-U152 would hint at a Gallo-Roman origin of these two haplogroups (I say Gallo-Roman as it could be from Gaul or Italy, the two regions being closely tied at least since the Bronze Age).
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    Last edited by Maciamo; 13-04-12 at 13:54.

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    I have updated the R1b-L21 map in accordance with the new Basque data:


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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b4

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    Really interesting Maciamo! I had heard a couple of references to this study elsewhere but it's good to have it well summarised. I think that R1b-L21 presence is very interesting indeed, do you think this could be migration to and from the British Isles with trade routes, or something else?

    The presence of I2a2a and R1b-U106 in Chalosse is also very interesting - Quite an interesting haplogroup, it's the one that previously had peaks in northern Germany and a small one in north-east Sweden wasn't it? Quite an unusual distribution. Would be interesting if it was the Franks that spread it there, might suggest they were particularly U106 and I2a2a heavy - I guess it could be consistent with north-west Germany to some degree.

    I think the most important thing is your observation of E-V13, T and G2a travelling together during the neolithic, very interesting - And the situation with J2 appearing more Gallo-Roman is pretty interesting, not what i would have expected, but then i don't know enough about it.

    Fascinating stuff, and good sample size too - Important.

    Kind Regards,
    Sam Jackson

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    VERY INSTERESTING
    Chalosse is not present day basque country - its situated in the departement of Landes, Gascony (but some partial ancestral community with Basques -
    could you give us the percentage of R-U106 in Chalosse please? I was thinking in a Franks settlement on what has been a boundary of was close to a boundary but the lack of I2a2 (ex I2b) in Northern France (but based on restricted sample it's true) and the preponderance of Wallony upon Flanders for this haplogroup seeds some trouble in my thoughts...(I have always "my" Bell Beakers in my head)
    thank you beforehand
    M

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    Really interesting Maciamo! I had heard a couple of references to this study elsewhere but it's good to have it well summarised. I think that R1b-L21 presence is very interesting indeed, do you think this could be migration to and from the British Isles with trade routes, or something else?
    I think that R1b-L21 is the signature of the northern Atlantic Celts (Bronze Age + Iron Age) and that trade routes did indeed bring it to Iberia and southern France. I think that we see a peak among the Basques simply because the Basques have such a high percentage of R1b. It doesn't necessarily mean that there was a more significant L21 settlement there. I often notice that haplogroup I, and I2 even more than I1 gets replaced by R1b over time, probably due to an evolutionary advantage (higher ratio of boys). It's probably not by chance that I2a1a and I2a2a are both more frequent in relatively isolated areas (Pyrennees, Sardinia, Harz mountains, northern Sweden), where there is less sexual competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The other main haplogroup of the Basques is of course I2a1a (M26, formerly I2a1), which reaches 6.6% among the Basques, with a peak at 17% at Zuberoa and 12% at Lapurdi Nafarroa, both in the French Basque country.
    don't laugh...
    but i think place name Zuberoa is not coincidence...

    in Zuberoa traditional musical instrument is Xirula
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xirula

    which is very alike frula from Serbia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frula

    e.g. related instrument has names
    dentsivka (Ukraine), dudka (Russia), duduk (Serbia's Vlachs, north-westernBulgaria), floghera (Greece), fluier (Romania), furulya (Hungary) and fujarka (Poland). Although it shares the same name as the Bulgarian and Serbian Vlach duduk, the Turkishduduk is a double-reed instrument, very different from the frula.


    frula/Xirula would be a word candidate for spread with I2a people

    i can hear it coming.... question why do i think people had musical instruments in ancient prehistory like 20 ky before present.....

    while split of I2a1 and I2a2 happened long long time ago, split of cultures and languages may have happened much later....in time after when people from those populations were conquered with new people bringing new cultures and languages...

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    One surprise is the astonishingly high percentage of I2a2a (M223, formerly I2b) in Gascony (5.7%), reaching a staggering 9% in Bigorre (central-north Pyrénees) and 7% in Chalosse (north-west Pyrenees) - the highest percentage outside central Germany ! In sharp contrast, I2a2a is under 0.5% in Northeast Spain, as if the Pyrenees were a barrier to its progression. But who brought I2a2a to Gascony ? The Franks ? The equally high percentage of R1b-U106 in Chalosse points in this direction, or at least a Germanic source. Had I2a2a been Paleolithic or even had it come with the Bronze Age Celts, it would have spread to eastern Spain in greater number. This would mean that I2a2a may not have been found in Southwest Europe since the Paleolithic after all, but is a truly Germanic haplogroup like I1.
    as far as I remember Goths did first settle that area before going further down south into Iberian peninsula....
    so they left most offspring there...

    look at this map.. original settlement of Visigoths in that area is in southwest France and not in Iberia...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigothic_Kingdom

    year 418_______year 476________year 560
    600px-Hispania_418_AD.PNG 600px-Hispania_476_AD.PNG 600px-Hispania_560_AD.PNG

    In Gascony they were highly concentrated, later when they conquered Spain they spread over much larger area resulting in their genetic imprint being diluted...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    as far as I remember Goths did first settle that area before going further down south into Iberian peninsula....
    so they left most offspring there...
    If the Goths are those who brought I2a2a to southern France, then why don't we find it in Spain too ? Actually the only part of Iberia where I2a2a is relatively high is North Portugal and Galicia, which was settled by the Suebi, but not the Goths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If the Goths are those who brought I2a2a to southern France, then why don't we find it in Spain too ? Actually the only part of Iberia where I2a2a is relatively high is North Portugal and Galicia, which was settled by the Suebi, but not the Goths.
    i replied later in edit...
    in Gascony they were highly concentrated...
    I do not think Goths were only I2a2a.... the rest was perhaps some R1b...

    in Gascony they were concentrated on same place for 100 years and probably has removed prior settlers from the area....so, some of settlements may more or less largely origin from them...
    in Spain they spread on much larger area so their 5-10% of I2a2a becomes noise, while their R1b merges into context...

    of course clades of R1b should be looked into to check this scenario..


    L21 looks as core of Celtic to me...as core of Celts was probably pushed towards sea with spread of Roman empire and later of Germanic people...note also that spread looks as it was in England before Germanic people and was pushed out from their settlement area... pay attention to hotspot in Brittany and Ireland...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I think that R1b-L21 is the signature of the northern Atlantic Celts (Bronze Age + Iron Age) and that trade routes did indeed bring it to Iberia and southern France. I think that we see a peak among the Basques simply because the Basques have such a high percentage of R1b. It doesn't necessarily mean that there was a more significant L21 settlement there. I often notice that haplogroup I, and I2 even more than I1 gets replaced by R1b over time, probably due to an evolutionary advantage (higher ratio of boys). It's probably not by chance that I2a1a and I2a2a are both more frequent in relatively isolated areas (Pyrennees, Sardinia, Harz mountains, northern Sweden), where there is less sexual competition.
    Yeah i would agree with that - After all it seems a smattering or relatively high concentrations, as opposed to a whole swathe spread more evenly over the whole region, and it makes sense that someone would find evidence of Atlantic trading in the DNA. I see what you mean about R1b becoming more and more dominant over time - It's easy to see how a slight genetic advantage or predisposition can develop into a massive effect over a long period of time - Like you say in your articles on R1b. I guess then geography quite well explains the distribution of I2a1a and i2a2a, so I take it they were effectively diminished by R1b's success in most places?

    Kind Regards,
    Sam Jackson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If the Goths are those who brought I2a2a to southern France, then why don't we find it in Spain too ? Actually the only part of Iberia where I2a2a is relatively high is North Portugal and Galicia, which was settled by the Suebi, but not the Goths.
    Question- did the visigoths go in all parts of spain or only the north. I think the majority of Spain was Vandili people

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