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Thread: The Gedrosia component and the origin of R1b M269

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    You make a big mistake by equalizing Caucasus with the West Asian component of v3. The West Asian component was split into Caucasus (a Northwest Caucasian component) and Gedrosia (an East Caucasian-Iranian component).
    I didn't mean to equalize them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I didn't mean to equalize them.
    well sorry than. I had the impression that you think Caucasus is the same as West Asian. But in reality West Asian (Caucasus + Gedrosia). I got something interesting for the topic. Gedrosia is relatively high among West Asian Groups with significant presence of R1b. The Lezgins, Kurds, Iranians, Armenians as example.
    I start to believe that R1b evolved in (North)west Iran (Which is also a hotspot of R1(R1b as well R1a).

    Interestingly I once red that Italian archaeologists found Celtic (like) graves there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    According to Dienekes himself. K12a and more even K12b is the best of all experiments so far.

    In my own opinion the Gedrosia component evolved somewhere in Southeast Caucasus/West Iran and moved into West Europe and Central- South Asia. Another indication for this is that Gedrosia is highest among Baluch people which originated in Northwest Iran and speak a language closely related to Kurdish.
    I know what Dienekes's thinks, but my opinion is exactly the same. The little or no correlation with the K7b experiment (developed at the same time), speaks in favor of this IMO. Actually, the most accurate tool one could find is a genetic plot using as much samples as possible. Obviously you don't recieve any %, but the individual position compared to others is based on all AIMs, and it's absolutely true if the sample size is enough significant (Davidski also said it's really accurate). I mentioned the Eurogenes project specially for this, and my conclusion focussing in my results, is that the only experiments not matching what I see in the West Eurasian genetic plots, are both K12a and K12b (same could be applied to other people). Then, I must asume there's a lot of noisy or ambiguous results, not useful to understand ones ancestry (or at least quite problematic in some ethnic groups).

    And no Alan, your thoughts about West Asian cannot be true simply because I was 0% West Asian, and I became 6% Caucasus+ 3% Gedrosian aprox. Results which I never obtained again, even in the Eurogenes project using West-Central Asian references. So I find quite difficult that the only experiments not matching my regular scores and detailed plots, could be the best ones as you suggest. I only use them to compare what other Iberians get, just curious about this, but I don't take it seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    And no Alan, your thoughts about West Asian cannot be true simply because I was 0% West Asian, and I became 6% Caucasus+ 3% Gedrosian aprox. Results which I never obtained again, even in the Eurogenes project using West-Central Asian references. So I find quite difficult that the only experiments not matching my regular scores and detailed plots, could be the best ones as you suggest. I only use them to compare what other Iberians get, just curious about this, but I don't take it seriously.

    Look the answer for this is very simply. Namely because those so called "components" do not exist in reality and are only meant to help to understand better the relationship between groups. Some of the former "Mediterranean" component moved into the new Caucasus one and the ANI "South Asian" component which has cost many errors moved into the new Gedrosia component simply because in fact the former "South Asian" was a zombie component which combined all Caucasian (be it North European or West Asian) and aboriginal Indian genes into one. Now with K12b Dienekes did distinguish West Asian and North European genes from aboriginal South Asian and took it into the new Gedrosia.

    Gedrosia and Caucasus are not exactly the same as West Asian but those two taken together are the closest to the former West Asian component.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    actually all of this experiments (be it Dodecad v3, k12 or k7) say very much the same when it comes to the relationship of different populations. Just they use different definitions for some Genes.

    as example.

    population Spaniards got genes y x z n a c
    Germans got y x z n a b g
    and Kurds got z n a b d c


    dodecad v3
    Spaniards= Mediterranean(y,x,z,n) West Asian(a) North European(c)
    Germans= Mediterranean(y,x,z,n) West Asian(a) North European(c,g)
    Kurds= Mediterranean(z,n) West Asian(a,b,d) North European (c)

    Dodecad K12b
    Spaniards= Atlantic Med(y,x,z) Caucasus/Gedrosia(n,a) North European(c)
    Germans= Atlantic Med(y,x,z) Caucasus/Gedrosia(n,a) North European(c,g)
    Kurds= Atlantic Med (z) Caucasus/Gedrosia(n,a,b,d) North European (c)

    Now what did change? Did the new admixture programm change the genes Spaniards and Germans share? NO
    Did it made Spaniards closer to West Asians(Kurds) as before? NO
    What did change? The definitions changed and he moved some genes from one category to another ( in my example it was a gene from Mediterranean which moved into category West Asian).

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    Those points are obvious Alan, noone could think seriously that some genes changed. My point is that these experiments hide the proximities between some ethnic groups, as for example Spaniards and Basques to my knowledge, so it rather gives a strange picture which is a bit far from reality. If the main goal is to show how do populations connect to each other, I think this could become even more confusing. In that issue, it was much useful, for example, the K12 with Sardinian and Basque components (best example I found).

    And to understand ones ancestry, as I said, the Eurogenes Project is becoming now more interesting IMO, with both admixture experiments and genetic plots. Really informative. However, I'm sure Dienkes' is going to surprise us too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    And also 25,5% for the Kurds!
    The Gedrosian admixture in Turkey could also be from Tukish tribes who came from Central Asia where Gedrosia admixture is high. Anyway, Gedrosia admixture didn't come with the caucasus one to Northern Europe. It was either sole Gedrosia or North European+Gedrosia, or Med+ Gedrosia.
    But as the med admixture is centred on western mediterranean and Atlantic it is very unlikely that Gedrosia ad came with the Med one. I personally think that the first men carrying R1b to Europe were 75% North European and 25% Gedrosia.

    If you look at this proposed Urheimat below, it is located enough North to lack the Caucasus admixture and enough East to have a little bit of Gedrosia admixture. The question is why are Russian and Ukrainian lacking Gedrosia ad? Maybe, only the branch of IE represented by Tocharian and Italo Celtic (which are closely related)
    included this component because of its more eastern initial location.



    Attachment 5572
    A further tiny evidence that your theory might be right is the elevated Y-HG Q in Basque land. Although it is very low (<1%), it shows that asian connections are indeed possible. Also, R1a is suddenly almost absent right east from the "Urheimat", which is important, since Basques don't have R1a either:

    300px-R1a1a_distribution.png

    And Y-HG Q is already present at this place, mainly in turcic peoples:

    300px-Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA).PNG


    Another country with high Gedrosia component and elevated Q is Scandinavia. It was speculated here that it might be brought together with the peculiar central asian/non-slavic R1a clades peaking in Tröndelag. Either that is a different Gedrosia source than for Basque, or Q has actually more to do with R1b, even in Scandinavia. Maybe also both, R1b and R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I start to believe that R1b evolved in (North)west Iran (Which is also a hotspot of R1(R1b as well R1a).
    Actually it's possible that hg. R1* (direct ancestor of R1b* and R1a*) is from an area between Northeast Kurdistan - Northwest Iran. I read somewhere that they also found some of the oldest subclades of hg. R1a* there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Yes, the Gedrosia makes more than 1/3 of the North European component for the Basque while it makes less than 1/4 of the Northern European component for the Irish. This maybe explain why the Basque don't speak an IE language.


    In this case, Proto Indo European would be the language of the "North European" of the eastern steppe while Basque would be related to the more southward culture of Central Asia (carrying Gedrosia admixture to the Steppe ) of Djebel, Dam Dam Chashma, and Keltermnar.
    I prefer this theory because it explains why Basque is so isolated in Europe (even compared to Iberian and Tartessian in the Iberian Peninsula) and why there is no Basque substratum in Europe.
    I take on very late, sorry
    I red some posts and I find it interesting and difficult also -
    1) some big "pools" of genes could be broken down some coming day
    2) to associate 'Gedrosia' AS to North European and Y-R1b is not absurd even if a speculation (our job!)
    We could associate as do Spongetaro mt-J to Gedrosia and R1b: but R1b closer to the North European component by origin in a previous population and mt J and Gedrosia pertening to an other and distinct population - these two populations could have merged sometime in Antiquity, in Siberia at the frontier between a I-E speaking population and maybe a turkish one or why not (as poposed on french forums) a proto-bask one? with some exchanges of females or even males??? these last case could explain the Basque mistery: a non-IE tribe associated with more numerous I-E (centum?) ones? at the arrival in West these Basques could have been influenced by 'north european' (what kind of mt DNA?) but kept a lot of 'gedrosia' and mt J... very speculative too!

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    some questions yet:
    I thought to Y-Q present in Scandinavia and Orkney-Shetland for a male correspondant of mt-J and 'gedrosia' - what is hard to understand is the big difference of percentages between AS 'gedrosia' and Y-Q in Central Asia where we find a lot of Y-R1a - but drift has been frequent in ancient times so?
    for basque substrate I say again what concluded a survey on lappish finnic language: they find two substrate, one satem I-E (or proto-satem) and one proto-basque: hard to make an opinion without beeing a specialist....

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    There's no Gedrosia component in Eastern Europe because I believe that R1a arrived in Central Europe before R1b. Before R1a migrated into Eastern Europe from the 'West' it was already mixed with native Central Europeans, hg. I2 folks. R1b came to Europe much later.

    Last edited by Goga; 21-04-12 at 01:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    ... we can conclude that the Caucasus component (only 0,1% among French Basque but 22,3% for Otzi) only represents the neolithic legacy of men carying G2a, EV13, J1 etc.
    So we have the caucasus admixture related to Neolithic farmers and R1b somewhat related to the Gedrosia admixture in Northwestern Europe (and in the Basque country).
    It really looks like R1b men came to Europe directly from an area East of the Caspian sea without settling around the Black sea area (Maykopp etc) .
    Maybe the Proto-Celtic Hallstatt-LaTéne region (Austria, Pannonia, Switzerland) represents a similar problem then, given that Ötzi genetically was like Sardinians (approx. 20%Caucasus, 0%Gedrosia). Assuming that he and his people lived that close to the Alps or even in the Alps, one might expect (Proto-)Celts got caucasian admixture at least during their stay in that region. And even today, germany has much caucasian admixture (10%), more than gedrosian, and I believe that most of it is concentrated in the south. The dutch for instance have only half that much caucasian.
    If the british celts are of celtic origin too, they should carry caucasian admixture, if not from the pontic steppe than at least from the alpine region. But strangely, they have the least Caucasian admixture, almost similar to the Basques.

    I'm now speculating that Gedrosian admixture (possibly R1b or even pre-centum-IE) could have come not by land but by the Mediterranean and Atlantic coast, starting from Anatolia or the Levant already before the semitic peoples arrived. That migration then should have happened in the neolithic or even earlier. Of course, there again are very sparse genetic traces at the Mediterranean shores, but it is easier to not leave any genetic traces by sea than by land. Perhaps they just did not go ashore before they reached west europe. But even if they had settled in east mediterranean regions long enough ago, then they might have been again expelled by the subsequent neolithic "caucasian" invaders. Maybe they got expelled by the neolithic newcomers already in the near east, provided they (gedrosian) lived there before. Gedrosians then might have been the first migration wave at the beginning of the neolithic, triggered by caucasian and semitic farmers. The sumerians also disappeared.

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    And I'm not suggesting that Hallstatt-LaTéne was not Celtic, but maybe they were a different celtic branch. Actually I find the celtic traces in the balkans surprisingly sparse. Most of the few traces can be explained by later intrusions from central europe (scordisci, galatians etc.)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    And I'm not suggesting that Hallstatt-LaTéne was not Celtic, but maybe they were a different celtic branch. Actually I find the celtic traces in the balkans surprisingly sparse. Most of the few traces can be explained by later intrusions from central europe (scordisci, galatians etc.)
    I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here: the Hallstatt Culture wasn't really on the Balkans, anyways. It's core area was what is today eastern France, southern Germany, Austria and the Czech Republic.



    You're correct that the incursion onto the Balkans occured only relatively late, and are part of the events that lead up to the Celtic/Galatian invasion of Greece in the early 3rd century BC. There can be little doubt though about wether the people of the Hallstatt Culture were speakers of a Celtic language (I always like to ask, if not, what else? Etruscan? Germanic? Slavic?? None of this makes any real sense). However, the problem is trying to link this with genetics.

    This is the problem between the Britons and the Basques. But, we do have other examples: I suppose that from the genetic perspective (that is, comparing with their adjacent neighbours), nobody would suspect that the Hungarians speak an Uralic language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here: the Hallstatt Culture wasn't really on the Balkans, anyways. It's core area was what is today eastern France, southern Germany, Austria and the Czech Republic.
    Sorry, I was not precise enough. I was just wondering why the proto-Celts did not leave more traces between the Maykop and Hallstatt-LaTéne regions. The Balkans just jumped to my mind as a region in-between. I should have said Ukraine and northern Balkans.




    You're correct that the incursion onto the Balkans occured only relatively late, and are part of the events that lead up to the Celtic/Galatian invasion of Greece in the early 3rd century BC. There can be little doubt though about wether the people of the Hallstatt Culture were speakers of a Celtic language (I always like to ask, if not, what else? Etruscan? Germanic? Slavic?? None of this makes any real sense).
    Of course not, therefore I said in my previous post that I'm not suggesting that Hallstatt-LaTéne were non-celtic speaking.

    However, the problem is trying to link this with genetics.

    This is the problem between the Britons and the Basques. But, we do have other examples: I suppose that from the genetic perspective (that is, comparing with their adjacent neighbours), nobody would suspect that the Hungarians speak an Uralic language.
    Very much agree, the language and genetics rarely do corellate (for instance romance speaking amerindians, germanic/english peaking indians). It's just that we already used to link R1b to Italo-Celts, and the new "gedrosia" component is yet another third attribute that correlates nicely to both inside Europe.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm still preferring the theory of an eastern origin of Indo-Europeans. The latest admixture analysis just adds a tiny question mark to the Caspian-Steppe/Maykop origin of the Q-Celts. And for the same reason I question a bit the Hallstatt-LaTéne region as likely source for those island celts. The admixture suggests a possible Iberian origin of at least some celts, because british celts have relatively more in common with the Basques than with Germans, Austrians, and Ötzi or Sardinians in particular. The Atlantic_Med and Northern_euro components are not significant in my opinion because they are ubiquitous in europe.
    If my speculation about gedrosian-centum relation is wrong, than the peculiar gedrosia component on the Atlantic shores must be older than bronze age, or just did not leave traces of the migration.
    Last edited by ElHorsto; 26-04-12 at 14:16. Reason: ", or just did not leave traces of the migration" added

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Sorry, I was not precise enough. I was just wondering why the proto-Celts did not leave more traces between the Maykop and Hallstatt-LaTéne regions. The Balkans just jumped to my mind as a region in-between. I should have said Ukraine and northern Balkans.
    I think you're making too much of a stretch of an assumption there, namely that there was already a distinct "Proto-Celtic" language by the time that (presumably) they left the Maykop area (I'm not wholly convinced of the Maykop hypothesis, but I'm perfectly willing to go with it for the sake of this discussion): so, there's two reasons why wouldn't see such a thing. The first is because by the early date of the Maykop culture (late 4th / early 3rd millennium BC), we can be safely assume that a distinct Proto-Celtic language didn't exist yet. The further you go back, the more similar languages are. It's more likely that the Celtic languages (along with the Italic languages, hence "Italo-Celtic" and a few other, poorly attested languages such as Venetic and Lusitanian), sprung from a common "western" IE spectrum. Secondly, all written sources are thousands of years later, with a lot of ethnic movements occuring in the meantime. It should be no surprise that we don't see anything, either way.

    Very much agree, the language and genetics rarely do corellate (for instance romance speaking amerindians, germanic/english peaking indians). It's just that we already used to link R1b to Italo-Celts, and the new "gedrosia" component is yet another third attribute that correlates nicely to both inside Europe.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm still preferring the theory of an eastern origin of Indo-Europeans. The latest admixture analysis just adds a tiny question mark to the Caspian-Steppe/Maykop origin of the Q-Celts. And for the same reason I question a bit the Hallstatt-LaTéne region as likely source for those island celts. The admixture suggests a possible Iberian origin of at least some celts, because british celts have relatively more in common with the Basques than with Germans, Austrians, and Ötzi or Sardinians in particular. The Atlantic_Med and Northern_euro components are not significant in my opinion because they are ubiquitous in europe.
    If my speculation about gedrosian-centum relation is wrong, than the peculiar gedrosia component on the Atlantic shores must be older than bronze age, or just did not leave traces of the migration.
    Well, the crucial question, regardless of all details, should be this: how much genetic impact (read: population replacement) is necessary to impose a language onto a population. How possible was this in ancient times without significantly exterminating the old population?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Well, the crucial question, regardless of all details, should be this: how much genetic impact (read: population replacement) is necessary to impose a language onto a population.
    Actually there is enough eastern genetic impact on the fringes of western europe, namely the Gedrosian component, and I'm trying to explain it by the IE centum language, not the other way round. The Indo-Europeanization of western europe would be the most likely explanation. But this theory does not answer some questions for western europe:

    1. Why caucasus component is missing at the same time?

    - Spongetaro suggested that these assumed IE people probably did not stay in the pontic steppe for a longer time.
    - I further conclude that they probably did not stay much longer in the Hallstatt-LaTéne region too.

    2. Why are the Basques a stronghold of Gedrosian component?

    Speculations:
    - either because their matriarchal system was able preserve the old native language.
    - ,or because Gedrosian component is not only indo-european. It could have partially became associated with turkic speakers (close to Tocharian area) or sumerian (possibly close to original pre-Babylonian IE language origin).

    This puzzles me. But probably we don't have enough data to derive plausible answers.

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    just a remark
    in ancient times neighbouring populations did not IMMEDIATLY mix one together : we have examples of populations meeting one together and taking different spaces of life in the SAME region, not mixing: not same economy + not same language, and different "rapports de force" - mixings come AFTER- neolithic Y-G2 bearers was not Celts at first and did not become Celts for a long time I suppose: surely they were pushed in the highlands of Alps before the Celts themselves would be pushed by Germanic people to the same refuge country before the modern mixt of populations... Immigration was not so individual as nowaday, and interpenetration of populations was not immediate, I think or only partly at the beginning

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Gedrosia admixture not found in Neolithic samples from Sweden

    Dienekes tested 3 Neolithic samples from Sweden with its K12b calculator. As we can see the Gedrosia admixture is absent from the Farmer and the two hunter gatherers.


    Gok4 (TRB / farmer) Ajv52 (PWC / hunter-gatherer) Ajv70 (PWC / hunter-gatherer)

    K12b.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Dienekes tested 3 Neolithic samples from Sweden with its K12b calculator. As we can see the Gedrosia admixture is absent from the Farmer and the two hunter gatherers.


    Gok4 (TRB / farmer) Ajv52 (PWC / hunter-gatherer) Ajv70 (PWC / hunter-gatherer)

    K12b.jpg
    Exciting! The result makes actually sense (except the Sub_Saharan and South_Asian admixtures). This is my current raw picture:

    - The absence of Gedrosian component in all makes it yet more likely to be of later origin. Whether it is IE or not, remains unclear.

    - Atlantic_Med was already considerably present among northern hunter-gatherers. A constant south-north diffusion along the atlantic coast is also visible in that the Atlantic_Med is strong among northern hunter-gatherers, but yet less than today, and at the same time the North_Euro part is very small in the Gok4 farmer. I believe that the late-palaeolithic Combe-Capelle finding was related to the Atlantic_Med component rather than North_Euro.

    - The North_Euro component results indicate an eastward push of many northern hunter-gatherers.

    - The Gok4 farmer already has some Caucasian+South_west_asian, while Basques still today don't have it, despite being very similar otherwise by the very high Atlantic_Med component. This is further evidence that Atlantic_Med was also not originally related to the neolithic farming, but maybe to fishers, hunters and perhaps even early seafarers. They just adopted farming earlier than North_Euro peoples.

    - The South-West Asian component is surprisingly high in the Gok4 farmer, but still consistent with the supposed near-eastern origin of farming.

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    The SNP's available are incredibly low compared to Ötzi or any present day participant. I think it's useful to see the major components, but minor ancestries cannot be represented accurately with the present data. Forget about speculations based on this, it's not the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Dienekes tested 3 Neolithic samples from Sweden with its K12b calculator. As we can see the Gedrosia admixture is absent from the Farmer and the two hunter gatherers.


    Gok4 (TRB / farmer) Ajv52 (PWC / hunter-gatherer) Ajv70 (PWC / hunter-gatherer)

    K12b.jpg
    very interesting and thank you Spongetaro:
    as a whole it give us some important informations - but we see also how the different "calculators" can give us so different analysis... even about hunters-gatherers that seam having been a lot of "exotic" genes according to the chosen "calculator"...

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    The problem is not with the calculators, as I said, it's the small number of SNP's available. This is just a narrow taste, an aproximation to the the major ancestries (which of course could perfectly be altered testing more SNP's).

    And according to Dienekes', all the present clusters are admixed with various influences (mostly Neolithic With Meso-Paleolithic substratum), and this is also valid for the K7b experiment. I mean, there's still no cluster to represent a Hunter Gatherer properly, and until we're not able to test more SNP's, it simply won't be possible.

    That's all folks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    The SNP's available are incredibly low compared to Ötzi or any present day participant. I think it's useful to see the major components, but minor ancestries cannot be represented accurately with the present data. Forget about speculations based on this, it's not the time.
    Of course it is invalid to draw conclusions based on this piece alone. The Gok4, Ajv52, Ajv70 calculation is just a tiny piece in a big puzzle, which fits, nothing else.

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    Well, Gedrosia is not Turkic, because there's not so much of it in Hungary.

    According to me Gedrosia component is either very old and proto-Indo-European (from West Asia / the Iranian Plateau) or not so old Iranic, came to Europe with Scytho-Sarmatians etc.

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