The Gedrosia component and the origin of R1b M269

Sorry, I was not precise enough. I was just wondering why the proto-Celts did not leave more traces between the Maykop and Hallstatt-LaTéne regions. The Balkans just jumped to my mind as a region in-between. I should have said Ukraine and northern Balkans.

I think you're making too much of a stretch of an assumption there, namely that there was already a distinct "Proto-Celtic" language by the time that (presumably) they left the Maykop area (I'm not wholly convinced of the Maykop hypothesis, but I'm perfectly willing to go with it for the sake of this discussion): so, there's two reasons why wouldn't see such a thing. The first is because by the early date of the Maykop culture (late 4th / early 3rd millennium BC), we can be safely assume that a distinct Proto-Celtic language didn't exist yet. The further you go back, the more similar languages are. It's more likely that the Celtic languages (along with the Italic languages, hence "Italo-Celtic" and a few other, poorly attested languages such as Venetic and Lusitanian), sprung from a common "western" IE spectrum. Secondly, all written sources are thousands of years later, with a lot of ethnic movements occuring in the meantime. It should be no surprise that we don't see anything, either way.

Very much agree, the language and genetics rarely do corellate (for instance romance speaking amerindians, germanic/english peaking indians). It's just that we already used to link R1b to Italo-Celts, and the new "gedrosia" component is yet another third attribute that correlates nicely to both inside Europe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still preferring the theory of an eastern origin of Indo-Europeans. The latest admixture analysis just adds a tiny question mark to the Caspian-Steppe/Maykop origin of the Q-Celts. And for the same reason I question a bit the Hallstatt-LaTéne region as likely source for those island celts. The admixture suggests a possible Iberian origin of at least some celts, because british celts have relatively more in common with the Basques than with Germans, Austrians, and Ötzi or Sardinians in particular. The Atlantic_Med and Northern_euro components are not significant in my opinion because they are ubiquitous in europe.
If my speculation about gedrosian-centum relation is wrong, than the peculiar gedrosia component on the Atlantic shores must be older than bronze age, or just did not leave traces of the migration.

Well, the crucial question, regardless of all details, should be this: how much genetic impact (read: population replacement) is necessary to impose a language onto a population. How possible was this in ancient times without significantly exterminating the old population?
 
Well, the crucial question, regardless of all details, should be this: how much genetic impact (read: population replacement) is necessary to impose a language onto a population.

Actually there is enough eastern genetic impact on the fringes of western europe, namely the Gedrosian component, and I'm trying to explain it by the IE centum language, not the other way round. The Indo-Europeanization of western europe would be the most likely explanation. But this theory does not answer some questions for western europe:

1. Why caucasus component is missing at the same time?

- Spongetaro suggested that these assumed IE people probably did not stay in the pontic steppe for a longer time.
- I further conclude that they probably did not stay much longer in the Hallstatt-LaTéne region too.

2. Why are the Basques a stronghold of Gedrosian component?

Speculations:
- either because their matriarchal system was able preserve the old native language.
- ,or because Gedrosian component is not only indo-european. It could have partially became associated with turkic speakers (close to Tocharian area) or sumerian (possibly close to original pre-Babylonian IE language origin).

This puzzles me. But probably we don't have enough data to derive plausible answers.
 
just a remark
in ancient times neighbouring populations did not IMMEDIATLY mix one together : we have examples of populations meeting one together and taking different spaces of life in the SAME region, not mixing: not same economy + not same language, and different "rapports de force" - mixings come AFTER- neolithic Y-G2 bearers was not Celts at first and did not become Celts for a long time I suppose: surely they were pushed in the highlands of Alps before the Celts themselves would be pushed by Germanic people to the same refuge country before the modern mixt of populations... Immigration was not so individual as nowaday, and interpenetration of populations was not immediate, I think or only partly at the beginning
 
Gedrosia admixture not found in Neolithic samples from Sweden

Dienekes tested 3 Neolithic samples from Sweden with its K12b calculator. As we can see the Gedrosia admixture is absent from the Farmer and the two hunter gatherers.


Gok4 (TRB / farmer) Ajv52 (PWC / hunter-gatherer) Ajv70 (PWC / hunter-gatherer)

K12b.jpg
 

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Dienekes tested 3 Neolithic samples from Sweden with its K12b calculator. As we can see the Gedrosia admixture is absent from the Farmer and the two hunter gatherers.


Gok4 (TRB / farmer) Ajv52 (PWC / hunter-gatherer) Ajv70 (PWC / hunter-gatherer)

View attachment 5601

Exciting! The result makes actually sense (except the Sub_Saharan and South_Asian admixtures). This is my current raw picture:

- The absence of Gedrosian component in all makes it yet more likely to be of later origin. Whether it is IE or not, remains unclear.

- Atlantic_Med was already considerably present among northern hunter-gatherers. A constant south-north diffusion along the atlantic coast is also visible in that the Atlantic_Med is strong among northern hunter-gatherers, but yet less than today, and at the same time the North_Euro part is very small in the Gok4 farmer. I believe that the late-palaeolithic Combe-Capelle finding was related to the Atlantic_Med component rather than North_Euro.

- The North_Euro component results indicate an eastward push of many northern hunter-gatherers.

- The Gok4 farmer already has some Caucasian+South_west_asian, while Basques still today don't have it, despite being very similar otherwise by the very high Atlantic_Med component. This is further evidence that Atlantic_Med was also not originally related to the neolithic farming, but maybe to fishers, hunters and perhaps even early seafarers. They just adopted farming earlier than North_Euro peoples.

- The South-West Asian component is surprisingly high in the Gok4 farmer, but still consistent with the supposed near-eastern origin of farming.
 
The SNP's available are incredibly low compared to Ötzi or any present day participant. I think it's useful to see the major components, but minor ancestries cannot be represented accurately with the present data. Forget about speculations based on this, it's not the time.
 
Dienekes tested 3 Neolithic samples from Sweden with its K12b calculator. As we can see the Gedrosia admixture is absent from the Farmer and the two hunter gatherers.


Gok4 (TRB / farmer) Ajv52 (PWC / hunter-gatherer) Ajv70 (PWC / hunter-gatherer)

View attachment 5601

very interesting and thank you Spongetaro:
as a whole it give us some important informations - but we see also how the different "calculators" can give us so different analysis... even about hunters-gatherers that seam having been a lot of "exotic" genes according to the chosen "calculator"...
 
The problem is not with the calculators, as I said, it's the small number of SNP's available. This is just a narrow taste, an aproximation to the the major ancestries (which of course could perfectly be altered testing more SNP's).

And according to Dienekes', all the present clusters are admixed with various influences (mostly Neolithic With Meso-Paleolithic substratum), and this is also valid for the K7b experiment. I mean, there's still no cluster to represent a Hunter Gatherer properly, and until we're not able to test more SNP's, it simply won't be possible.

That's all folks.
 
The SNP's available are incredibly low compared to Ötzi or any present day participant. I think it's useful to see the major components, but minor ancestries cannot be represented accurately with the present data. Forget about speculations based on this, it's not the time.

Of course it is invalid to draw conclusions based on this piece alone. The Gok4, Ajv52, Ajv70 calculation is just a tiny piece in a big puzzle, which fits, nothing else.
 
Well, Gedrosia is not Turkic, because there's not so much of it in Hungary.

According to me Gedrosia component is either very old and proto-Indo-European (from West Asia / the Iranian Plateau) or not so old Iranic, came to Europe with Scytho-Sarmatians etc.
 
Hello, has someone informations about Johanna Nichols’s Bactrian theory of Indo-European homeland? There must be some evidences in it of the links between european R1b and the Gedrosia component.
 
Yes, the Gedrosia makes more than 1/3 of the North European component for the Basque while it makes less than 1/4 of the Northern European component for the Irish. This maybe explain why the Basque don't speak an IE language.


In this case, Proto Indo European would be the language of the "North European" of the eastern steppe while Basque would be related to the more southward culture of Central Asia (carrying Gedrosia admixture to the Steppe ) of Djebel, Dam Dam Chashma, and Keltermnar.
I prefer this theory because it explains why Basque is so isolated in Europe (even compared to Iberian and Tartessian in the Iberian Peninsula) and why there is no Basque substratum in Europe.

I take on very late for these points:
I repaet (as in other threads) I red a survey that concluded it was 2 substratums in Saami finnish: one I-E satem or nearly satemized (interesting whne we look at the Y-DNA-R1a in Scandinavia), and one akin to a kind of proto-basque... look at the mtDNA-V (with a big drift it is true) among Saami
sure even if true these does not tell us what role was the Gedrosia's one (if Gedrosia autosomals is not a mirage)
have a good night rich of historical dreams - Moesan
 
The SNP's available are incredibly low compared to Ötzi or any present day participant. I think it's useful to see the major components, but minor ancestries cannot be represented accurately with the present data. Forget about speculations based on this, it's not the time.

Well, if I understood correctly, the usual SNP number for analysis of contemporary humans is approx. 166000. Dienekes came up with 4000-6600 useful SNPs by overlapping the full SNP sets with the ancient ones. For finding at least 5% Gedrosian admixture, there are at least 0.05 * 4000 = 200 SNPs available to represent Gedrosian admixture after all. Statistically that should be reliable enough I would expect. But I don't understand why the overlap is so small.
 
I understand the way you think. Noise scores usually appear even checking 166.000 SNP's, so the problem tends to increase if there are only 6.000 available. I don't know more details, but it's well known. Note that Dienekes' only considered the major components, and when someone asked him about minnor ancestries, he did not consider this relevant...well, maybe it's true, but the fact is that we don't know it
 
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One additional puzzle piece for the Gedrosia-R1b M269 connection from last year, the MDLP-World 22 calculator:

Indo-Iranian component:

http://magnusducatus.blogspot.de/2012/09/the-component-maps-of-mdlp-world22.html

MDLPindoiranian.jpg

Fits well R1b M269 and K12b Gedrosia in north-western europe Ireland, Britain, Brittany, BMAC and Pakistan. Austria, Hungary, North Italians and Czechs have it too but less. Notable presence is also in Altai, west China and Bashkirs.
 
One additional puzzle piece for the Gedrosia-R1b M269 connection from last year, the MDLP-World 22 calculator:

Indo-Iranian component:

http://magnusducatus.blogspot.de/2012/09/the-component-maps-of-mdlp-world22.html

View attachment 5951

Fits well R1b M269 and K12b Gedrosia in north-western europe Ireland, Britain, Brittany, BMAC and Pakistan. Austria, Hungary, North Italians and Czechs have it too but less. Notable presence is also in Altai, west China and Bashkirs.

IIRC Gedrosia is in eastern iran along the coast and next to it is baloch which is the remaining eastern iran lands and western pakistan lands along the coast. Some admixture sites combine these in one name , either gedrosia or balochi ...........so you need to be careful
 
IIRC Gedrosia is in eastern iran along the coast and next to it is baloch which is the remaining eastern iran lands and western pakistan lands along the coast. Some admixture sites combine these in one name , either gedrosia or balochi ...........so you need to be careful

Not sure I understand...
'Gedrosia' in K12b peaks in Balochi. The component called 'Indo-Iranian' in world22 is not the same as 'Gedrosia' and peaks in north pakistan, but both are still very close and overlapping and show too much similar distribution outside pakistan and iran to be coincidental. Thus I assume it is a fourth evidence.
 
thanks to El Horsto for these maps he provided us - by hazard I was writing a post about the subject -
by the way, an intersting civilization was no far from the 'gedrosian' center of today: ancient Harappa culture having influenced the agricultural-metallurgic iranians (what nam ahd they at this time) settlements that were in contact with the steppic tribes at the beginning of metals and after, at the foothills of Altai, until having contact with southern skirts of Andronovoculture;

Some thoughts about the so called 'gedrosia' autosomals element in Europe heritage and the problem of Basques and Y-DNA R1b -

as said Spongetaro some months ago, the surprise concerning 'gedrosia' is that its center of density is situated in Pakistan with «radiation» around this country, but in Europe its stronger centers, even if moderate compared to Pakistan, are in neo-celtic lands and Austria, and too Scandinavia and Portugal: all the way, a kind of rough Atlantic-North Sea arc. Its presence is modest in Mediterranea, close nevertheless to Anatolia and Near-Eastern where 'gedrosia' is dense enough, and modest too among slavic countries. But here we are speaking about absolute percentages. What is interesting is to compare the respective percentages of 'gedrosia' and 'west-asian' components in all places, to see if they present some stability at this level, showing so common movings into Europe?
The result at first sight shows no similitude at all.
What is striking is that the France Basques and Orcadians show again here a strong connexion between them having more than 95% of 'gedrosian' versus less than 5% of 'caucasian' – then come the Irish people and Scandinavians with about 85% of 'gedrosian' versus approximatively 5% of 'caucasian': on their heels come Brittain and Portugal, then The Netherlands-Belgium group; Austria and then France and Spain are far behind. The stronger N-W and W european «teams» are in competition with the groups of Pakistan (!) when France and Spain and Germany are under 40%, in company of Iranians and Kurds! Italians, even in North, Greeks and Slavs are under 15% of 'gedrosian' in this rapport, often under 7%, being in company of Slavs and southern Arabs!
I think Y-R1 having as others Y-R its supposed center of developpement in this East Caspian Sea area, that Y-R1b too is born there, before giving birth to downstream HGs – maybe some Hgs took the southern way, going to Near Eastern and then forking again, one way to Africa, one other way to Anatolia, but I suppose someones took the way northwards in direction of steppes. Being the present day 'gedrosian' center in Pakistan and being the N-W+W-european 'gedrosia' people poor concerning 'caucasian' fellows, I think I'm right concerning their way East the caspian Sea. I am also tempted to think either 'gedrosia' people were Y-R1b by male ligneages, or they were subjugued by a Y-R1b male elite transmetting only their autosomals by females mediation... the first solution seems the better one to me for now.
The fact Basques show a big ratio in favor of 'gedrosia' as atlantic Celts but do not speak a celtic languages push me to consider this first colony of 'gedrosian' «pakistan» people of steppes did not speak an indo-european language. Maybe they spoke a «caucasic» language or a dravidian one (Elam?), or an unkown one, with a very far common origin with these kinds of languages and the first migrants transformed it into a proto-basque one, when the brother migrants stayed in steppes produced a proto-indo-european there, perhaps by contacts with fino-ugrian languages??? we can also suppose (what else can we do for the moment?) but I like less, that they spoke yet a proto-proto-indo-european and that the first wave reaching W-Europe was not numerous enough to impose this language to an autochtonous occidental population speaking a kind of proto-basque???
I recall again that some proto-basque language has been spoken in Scandinavia before finnic, so the less numerous supposed (by me) first wave of migrants could have met proto-basque speakers very sooner nad more in East on their travel, South the baltic Sea maybe??? in these last hypothesis taking in account a less numerous first wave, the origin language of these migrants could be without weight helas and without traceability!
Concerning pheotypes ( a first rapid tasting) East Caspian region seems having given place to a pseudo 'proto-mediterranean' type more akin to a 'cro-magnon' types (broader face and eye-sockets) whatever the pigmentation at this stage. Coon found some far ressemblances with the old mesopotamian 'eurafrican» types and the 'long-barrows' people, not without see differences too. What is curious is that the present day localization of strong rapports 'gedrosian' versus 'caucasian' are almost exactly the megalithic centers of the future Atlantic Bronze Age» and its closer colonies, where 'long barrows' types were dominant! And I think before having evident contradiction, that the 'long-barrows' people showed some 'cro-magnon' influences into its types of middle stature 'gracile' types, but in more dolichocephalic. Where did they «buy» this 'cro-magnoid' stuff: in East Caspian or in Pyrenees surroundings? So I rely only with caution upon phenotypic convergeances because old common origins can give unchanged heritage concerning some external traits among popula-tions that diverged a long time ago and underwent a lot of divergent mutations for their other genes.
Just thoughts waiting more.
here under a 'table' based upon K2a:


AUTOSOMAUXCAUCASGEDROSC/(B+C)
Euskaris eus Frañs0,17,698,7french Basques
Brahui2,067,697,1Brahui Indies
Bro-Skoss Orkadianed0,49,796,0Scotland Orcades
Baluchistan6,063,391,3Baluchistan
Indes4,338,990,0Indies
Makrani7,260,089,3Makrani Pakistan
Sindhi6,449,488,5Sindhi Pakistan
Mozabited0,21,487,5Mozabites Tunisia
Iwerzhon1,59,586,4Ireland
Sweden1,16,184,7Sweden
Norwegia1,26,484,2Norway
Burusho10,541,879,9Burusho Pakistan
Pataned13,942,675,4Patans Pakistan
Breizh-Veur3,08,473,7Brittain
Portugal2,97,872,9Portugal
Broioù-Isel-Belgia5,18,161,4The Netherland-Belgium
Bro-Uygur12,515,254,9Uygurs
Alamagn Su + Aostria6,47,152,6S-Germany-Austria
Frañs B8,46,342,9France B
Frañs A8,25,339,3France A
Iran40,525,939,0Iran
Spagn7,94,938,3Spain
Kurded42,325,537,6Kurds
Alamagn7,84,436,1Germany
Tchouvached9,63,526,7Chuvashs
Assurianed51,814,421,8Assyrians
Azerbadjan52,714,321,3Azerbaidjian
Arménia A56,712,518,1Armenia A
Turki45,79,517,2Turkey
Finnland1,50,316,7Finnland
Arménie B56,110,515,8Armenia B
Bedwined18,23,415,7Bedwins
Adygei Tcherkessed58,89,714,2Adygei Cherkesses
Russia8,21,313,7Russia
Italia Norzh B21,43,112,7North Italy B
Palestina36,85,012,0Palestine
Druzed48,46,211,4Druzes
Italia Kornaoueg28,43,611,3West Italy
Italia Norzh A21,32,610,9North Italy A
Italia Su + Sikilia35,13,59,1S- Italy-Sicilia
Italia Kreiz30,92,88,3Center Italy
Italia Toskana28,32,58,1Toscana Italy
Italia Sikilia34,52,67,0Sicilia Italy
Kubros48,73,16,0Cyprus
Pologn11,10,75,9Poland
Yuzewion Askhenasad B34,02,05,6Askhenazes Jews B
Italia Su 38,22,15,2South Italy
Yuzewion Askhenasad A34,81,74,7Askhenazes Jesws A
Bulgaria28,41,34,4Bulgaria
Gressia37,51,74,3Greece
Ejipt27,41,24,2Egypt
Lituania6,60,22,9Lithuania
Russia Wenn10,60,32,8Bielo-Russia
Italia Sardinia15,80,00,0Sardinia Italy
 
Not sure I understand...
'Gedrosia' in K12b peaks in Balochi. The component called 'Indo-Iranian' in world22 is not the same as 'Gedrosia' and peaks in north pakistan, but both are still very close and overlapping and show too much similar distribution outside pakistan and iran to be coincidental. Thus I assume it is a fourth evidence.

what I am saying is that gedrosia is on the coast of iran and it does not touch pakistan. but some admixture sites say balochi to include pakistan as well as gedrosia.
Unless you can link, there is no gedrosia representing pakistan.

The K12b of gedrosia which peaks in Balochi is on the "border" of gedrosia and balochi which is ALL in iran and not in Pakistan.
There is no gedrosia in Pakistan
 
These Gedrosian autosomal results sound like a load of bunk to me. So now Iran has more genetic connections to Scandinavia than the French have to their Northern neighbors? I'm not buying it. Sorry to be rather blunt here...
 

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