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Thread: OFFTOPIC from Y-Subclades Northern Spain & Gascogne

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    Post OFFTOPIC from Y-Subclades Northern Spain & Gascogne





    perhaps weird idea, but what if:

    Goths (and some other Germanic people) carried R-s28
    Ostrogoths were very populous in north Italy... and Visigoths originally settled in southwest France...
    low frequency of haplogroup in Ukraine can be explained with Goths mostly moving out, and also area being subject to lot of conquests...

    while Celts were mainly L21

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post


    perhaps weird idea, but what if:

    Goths (and some other Germanic people) carried R-s28
    Ostrogoths were very populous in north Italy... and Visigoths originally settled in southwest France...
    low frequency of haplogroup in Ukraine can be explained with Goths mostly moving out, and also area being subject to lot of conquests...

    while Celts were mainly L21
    Are you certain that visi and ostro goths have the same culture and HGs? . All that I read was that the ostro goths are baltic/swede/finn cultures in origin and the visi where the "pure" goths which where germanic ( east germanic) people. Both incorporated over time steppe people.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Are you certain that visi and ostro goths have the same culture and HGs? . All that I read was that the ostro goths are baltic/swede/finn cultures in origin and the visi where the "pure" goths which where germanic ( east germanic) people. Both incorporated over time steppe people.
    well they must have some of genetics shared as they shared tribal identity and language...

    I2b and R1b-S28 are on same parts of coastal area of Black sea.... which indicate that Goths could be carrying this combination with R1b-S28 being more dominant...






    maybe core of Goths in Black sea area was more south than usually thought
    line of R1b-S28 spread does start in baltic in exactly the area from where Goths start to spread towards Black sea....

    year 100 AD
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    perhaps weird idea, but what if:

    Goths (and some other Germanic people) carried R-s28
    Ostrogoths were very populous in north Italy... and Visigoths originally settled in southwest France...
    low frequency of haplogroup in Ukraine can be explained with Goths mostly moving out, and also area being subject to lot of conquests...

    while Celts were mainly L21
    Then how do you explain British S28? It's obvious that the Anglo-Saxons didn't bring S28 to Britain because in their homelands there's virtually no S28.

    (also, you're not the first person to suggest that S28 is East Germanic)

    My opinion is this: there is the possibility that some Germanic peoples carried S28, but given the distribution of the Haplogroup, and the spread pattern of the Germanic peoples, it seems unlikely that the Haplogroup was originally Germanic - in particular East Germanic.

    Most importantly, bear in mind that S28 is a brother clade to L21 (British Isles / northern Atlantic Façade), Z196 (Gascogne and Iberia) and M65 (Basque Country). It would seem unlikely that the origin of S28 would lie that far eastward if all other main subclades of P312 are clearly centered around Western Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Then how do you explain British S28? It's obvious that the Anglo-Saxons didn't bring S28 to Britain because in their homelands there's virtually no S28.

    (also, you're not the first person to suggest that S28 is East Germanic)

    My opinion is this: there is the possibility that some Germanic peoples carried S28, but given the distribution of the Haplogroup, and the spread pattern of the Germanic peoples, it seems unlikely that the Haplogroup was originally Germanic - in particular East Germanic.
    some of Germanic tribes that settled in uk could have carried it...
    btw. Normans origin from Vikings - they might have had some...
    it could have arrive there in earlier history as well..

    Most importantly, bear in mind that S28 is a brother clade to L21 (British Isles / northern Atlantic Façade), Z196 (Gascogne and Iberia) and M65 (Basque Country). It would seem unlikely that the origin of S28 would lie that far eastward if all other main subclades of P312 are clearly centered around Western Europe.
    how long ago did splits happen? pretty far in past, right?

    from Maciamo's page about R1b:
    L21 4000 ybp
    Z196 4800 ybp
    M65 3500 ybp

    when did R1b enter Europe?
    8000-5000 ybp?
    when did it settle west Europe?
    7000-5000 ybp?


    so we do not even know whether in time of split population carrying future L21+Z196+M65 lineages was already in Iberian peninsula....

    btw. S-182 from Scandinavia is equally related to S28 as groups you mention....


    history is very dynamic, some populations move a lot, like many germanic people did...

    note that some of roman empire historians claimed that name Germans means 'seed' and was used to mark original Celtic people... so in wider sense all R1b that have entered Europe may have originally been called Celtic.... to irritate you again with my triobal name patterns and tribal continuity theory, what you think of Kelti/Hatti/Gothi group?

    primary god of Germanic people (hence Goths as well) - Thor
    primary god of Hatti - Taru

    primary god of Celts - Taranis

    in Hittite and Luwian - Tarhun
    in Slavic - Perun
    in Baltic - Perkunas

    it is all same primary god of PIE people, just different languages had slightly different variants

    clearly Baltic and Slavic cluster together with Hittite and Luwian
    while Germanic with Hatti
    Celtic is in middle...

    perhaps Gothi - Hatti origin from same tribal name? and what about Kelti?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    don't laugh...
    but i think place name Zuberoa is not coincidence...

    in Zuberoa traditional musical instrument is Xirula
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xirula

    which is very alike frula from Serbia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frula

    e.g. related instrument has names


    frula/Xirula would be a word candidate for spread with I2a people

    i can hear it coming.... question why do i think people had musical instruments in ancient prehistory like 20 ky before present.....

    while split of I2a1 and I2a2 happened long long time ago, split of cultures and languages may have happened much later....in time after when people from those populations were conquered with new people bringing new cultures and languages...


    as far as I remember Goths did first settle that area before going further down south into Iberian peninsula....
    so they left most offspring there...

    look at this map.. original settlement of Visigoths in that area is in southwest France and not in Iberia...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigothic_Kingdom

    year 418_______year 476________year 560
    Attachment 5567 Attachment 5568 Attachment 5569

    In Gascony they were highly concentrated, later when they conquered Spain they spread over much larger area resulting in their genetic imprint being diluted...
    [/I][/I][/I]
    everybody is free to elaborate theories - so, why not?: nothing very impossible: what I should enjoy would be having the exact percentages of Y-I1 and Y-R-U106 along with I2a2 in these regions and known or supposed ways of passage of the several germanic tribes (an alan ones) through or around the Pyrenees mountains - I forget R1a too - because I think Goths would have had stronger imput of R-U152/R1a/I1 + some others, and not a so much of I2a2... Wait and see...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post

    note that some of roman empire historians claimed that name Germans means 'seed' and was used to mark original Celtic people... so in wider sense all R1b that have entered Europe may have originally been called Celtic.... to irritate you again with my triobal name patterns and tribal continuity theory, what you think of Kelti/Hatti/Gothi group?

    primary god of Germanic people (hence Goths as well) - Thor
    primary god of Hatti - Taru

    primary god of Celts - Taranis

    in Hittite and Luwian - Tarhun
    in Slavic - Perun
    in Baltic - Perkunas

    it is all same primary god of PIE people, just different languages had slightly different variants

    clearly Baltic and Slavic cluster together with Hittite and Luwian
    while Germanic with Hatti
    Celtic is in middle...

    perhaps Gothi - Hatti origin from same tribal name? and what about Kelti?
    Hatti? or chatti

    CHATTI or CATTI (Eth.Χάττοι, Eth. Χάτται), one of the great tribes of Germany, which rose to great importance after the decay of the power of the Cherusci. Their name is still preserved in Hessen (Hassen). They were the chief tribe of the Hermiones (Plin. Nat. 4.28), and are described by Caesar (Caes. Gal. 4.19, 6.10) as belonging to the Suevi, although Tacitus (Germ. 30, 31) clearly distinguishes them, and that justly, for no German tribe remained in its original locality more permanently than the Chatti. Ptolemy (2.11.22) places them more eastward, perhaps in consequence of their victories over the Cheruscans. The Batavi are said to have been a branch of the Chatti, who emigrated into Gaul. Some have supposed that the Cenni (Κέννοι), with whom the Romans were at war under Caracalla, were no others than the Chatti (D. C. 77.14); but this is more than doubtful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Hatti? or chatti

    CHATTI or CATTI (Eth.Χάττοι, Eth. Χάτται), one of the great tribes of Germany, which rose to great importance after the decay of the power of the Cherusci. Their name is still preserved in Hessen (Hassen). They were the chief tribe of the Hermiones (Plin. Nat. 4.28), and are described by Caesar (Caes. Gal. 4.19, 6.10) as belonging to the Suevi, although Tacitus (Germ. 30, 31) clearly distinguishes them, and that justly, for no German tribe remained in its original locality more permanently than the Chatti. Ptolemy (2.11.22) places them more eastward, perhaps in consequence of their victories over the Cheruscans. The Batavi are said to have been a branch of the Chatti, who emigrated into Gaul. Some have supposed that the Cenni (Κέννοι), with whom the Romans were at war under Caracalla, were no others than the Chatti (D. C. 77.14); but this is more than doubtful.
    yes, I did post year ago that Chatti/Hatti could be same tribal name... e.g. in
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post370503

    but now I add Gothi to the group...

    I believe that there is continuity of tribal names.... but that needs to be confirmed by genetics...
    R1b S28 could be a link... as it is elevated in both Hatti area in Asia minor and in Gothi area of influence in line from Baltic to Black sea, in north Italy, south west France and in Spain...and in Chatti area of influence...
    I2b would be second component...

    by going into more detailed study of branches genetics can give us a clue of complete trajectories of tribal names...but it is still too early to claim that...so we can only make guesses like the ones I make here and elsewhere on forum....




    Chatti 1AD

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    yes, I did post year ago that Chatti/Hatti could be same tribal name... e.g. in
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post370503

    but now I add Gothi to the group...

    I believe that there is continuity of tribal names.... but that needs to be confirmed by genetics...
    R1b S28 could be a link... as it is elevated in both Hatti area in Asia minor and in Gothi area of influence in line from Baltic to Black sea, in north Italy, south west France and in Spain...and in Chatti area of influence...
    I2b would be second component...

    by going into more detailed study of branches genetics can give us a clue of complete trajectories of tribal names...but it is still too early to claim that...so we can only make guesses like the ones I make here and elsewhere on forum....




    Chatti 1AD
    remarks
    sorry I made a mistake abour Goths: I thought to R-U106 and I wrote errnously R-U152
    I never believed that R-S28/U152 was preponderant in any true evolved germanic tribe (only at a previous stage?) - I prefer think as before that R1-S28 (not its origin but is time of full development) is linked closer to Urnfield peoples and latter to West-Eastwards celtic movements... I see no evident link between Y-I2a2 and Y-RS28 - for tribal names, some long ago shared religion and common lexic of common préhistorical Indo-European origin can explain similar tribal names in Europe or elsewhere without tight historical links... but try to find someones is not a sin!

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    yes, I did post year ago that Chatti/Hatti could be same tribal name... e.g. in
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post370503
    1) Why should the pre-Hittite inhabitants of central Anatolia (who, unlike the Anatolians themselves weren't even Indo-Europeans) in the ca. 20th century BC be related with a tribe of 1st century AD Germania? There's approximately 2000 years and approximately the same amount of kilometers between them.

    2) The name "Chatti" is obviously Germanic, before the first Germanic sound shift (Grimm's Law), the name would have been something along the lines of *Kaddi.

    but now I add Gothi to the group...
    ... which frankly makes even less sense. Because "Chatti" and "Gothones" (both Germanic names, attested from the same time slice ven) are clearly different names. In the 1st century AD, the Chatti and the Goths nearly the same common language. Hence "ch" cannot be the same as "g" if we're talking about the same language.

    I believe that there is continuity of tribal names....
    You believe that there is a continuity of tribal names in ignorance of sound correspondences.

    but that needs to be confirmed by genetics...
    As I said, you take patterns which are not there and rather haphazardly add Haplogroups to them from patterns you project onto these maps. You seek confirmations for patterns which are not there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    1) Why should the pre-Hittite inhabitants of central Anatolia (who, unlike the Anatolians themselves weren't even Indo-Europeans) in the ca. 20th century BC be related with a tribe of 1st century AD Germania? There's approximately 2000 years and approximately the same amount of kilometers between them.
    why not?

    2) The name "Chatti" is obviously Germanic, before the first Germanic sound shift (Grimm's Law), the name would have been something along the lines of *Kaddi.
    what does it mean, if it is obviously Germanic?
    what if it is older than existence of Germanic languages?


    ... which frankly makes even less sense. Because "Chatti" and "Gothones" (both Germanic names, attested from the same time slice ven) are clearly different names. In the 1st century AD, the Chatti and the Goths nearly the same common language. Hence "ch" cannot be the same as "g" if we're talking about the same language.
    who is talking about same language in time when both tribes departed from non-IE Hatti?

    You believe that there is a continuity of tribal names in ignorance of sound correspondences.
    all your arguments are linguistic and based on modern languages...
    but don't you think it is possible that some tribal names are older than modern languages...


    As I said, you take patterns which are not there and rather haphazardly add Haplogroups to them from patterns you project onto these maps. You seek confirmations for patterns which are not there.
    well,perhaps you should try to imagine possible directions of movement of haplogroup spreads when you look at maps...

    why would Celtic marker had peak in north Italy that stretches far into mid Italy? Celts never went much further than Po....even in lower Po area only known Celts are Boii and they stayed there only for a short while....too short to leave significant impact on genetics..
    there very some Celtic tribes on very north of Italy in Alps area, but with spread of Roman empire they were initially pushed further to north and west.... which correlates with border of L21 area of influence....in fact, Celts are perfectly well described with L21 as dominant...celtic languages survived in areas in which they stayed dominant... otherwise L21 is elevated in areas where they were strong in history... that was never in mid Italy...so why would S28 in mid Italy be Celtic?

    and most recent settlers of area (most recent settlers typically leave most impact) were various germanic tribes with Goths being especially numerous in north Italy and a bit less in mid Italy while they did not really settle in south... which maps to what we see in S28

    do you really believe that Goths as last settlers of Spain who also ruled over it for centuries left genetic imprint of around 1% or less... that's impossible... those are fierce soldiers, known for being brutal... their genetic impact must be much larger...only explanation is that they carried substantial R1b ...


    you try to link y-DNA to modern languages, but you would do better if you try to link mtDNA to languages as woman dominantly influence acceptance of languages and military settlers often do not take woman with them- they take local ones, which is e.g. why Spain hardly has any influence of Germanic languages or Bulgaria of Bulgar language...

    man in past did not really speak that much, they would work and fight, so they were carriers of tribal identity who spread it...it is woman who transfer the language to next generations... if woman are local, next generations will speak their language...

    moving tribes carry language only if they bring most of own woman with them... but that does not happen when a tribe moves from e.g. Black sea to e.g. Spain fighting its way through enemy lands all the way... too far away, to risky...too costly...plus there are local woman in which ever country tribe goes...perhaps even more beautiful ones...

    if woman would always move with military tribes we would see gross correlation between mtDNa and YDNA clades, but we don't...

    it is quite different with tribal names - they are key part of identity of invaders - again look at example of Bulgars... they accepted language of local woman, but they still have their tribal name... Bulgars did conquest, Serbs and Croats settled peacefully after being invited to settle emptied areas... military conquest is typically done without woman involved,,,,,that is why Bulgars lost their language, and Serbs and Croats did not...

    if you e.g. move to China and marry a chinese girl that doesnot speak German, your grandchildren would likely not speak German but only Chinese (because German language is pretty useless in China, but in past times also because you as a man would not interact that much with children and teach them to speak...you would be to busy with earning resources for living),
    however they would still carry your last name as it is their identity....maybe some chinese linguistic genius would one day in future claim that chinese version of your last name is clearly of Chinese origin, but would you agree?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Why this obsession to associate it with known tribes such as Goths or Vikings ? There has been constant influx in Europe of "anonymous" migrations since ancient times without known names of tribes. I mean just look at autosomal data, we see that for example Iberia shows 30-40% of northern-european components, higher than in Northern-Italy, this just doesn't come from Visigoths which were a rather small minority, this something rather more ancient and without specific known tribes

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    why not?
    Why not? Because William of Ockham is going to come and bust you.



    what does it mean, if it is obviously Germanic?
    what if it is older than existence of Germanic languages?
    I think you totally didn't understand at all why I brought up Grimm's Law. If you say that the name is older than the Germanic languages (which in itself requires quite a stretch of belief, in my opinion, and that's an understatement since you want to link it with an ethnic name that existed 2000 years earlier), then it requires it to be older than Grimm's Law. We do not know when Grimm's Law happened, the conservative approach says it occured in the early iron age - modern estimates put it around the 1st century BC. In any case, unless you assume that the name "Chatti" entered into the Germanic language after Grimm's Law occured, then one must assume that the name was shifted from a different form before Grimm's Law. I've told you that this would be something akin to *Kaddi. Since Kaddi is obviously different from "Hatti", there goes your connection.

    all your arguments are linguistic and based on modern languages...
    but don't you think it is possible that some tribal names are older than modern languages...
    Since when is Proto-Germanic a modern language?

    why would Celtic marker had peak in north Italy that stretches far into mid Italy? Celts never went much further than Po....even in lower Po area only known Celts are Boii and they stayed there only for a short while....too short to leave significant impact on genetics..
    I never said that U152 was exclusively Celtic. I do not believe into that 'one Haplogroup' = 'one ethnic group' meme. But I believe that it is plausible that U152 was implicated in the iron age migrations of the Celts (especially in Britain). Wether there's a Germanic component to U152 I don't know (U106 obviously is, but that's a different story). Given the original homeland of the Germanic peoples, it's rather doubtful that U152 was originally Germanic.

    you try to link y-DNA to modern languages ( ... )
    I actually try to link nothing here. Besides, for the sake of a discussion, Proto-Germanic isn't a modern language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post



    why would Celtic marker had peak in north Italy that stretches far into mid Italy? Celts never went much further than Po....even in lower Po area only known Celts are Boii and they stayed there only for a short while....too short to leave significant impact on genetics..
    there very some Celtic tribes on very north of Italy in Alps area, but with spread of Roman empire they were initially pushed further to north and west.... which correlates with border of L21 area of influence....in fact, Celts are perfectly well described with L21 as dominant...celtic languages survived in areas in which they stayed dominant... otherwise L21 is elevated in areas where they were strong in history... that was never in mid Italy...so why would S28 in mid Italy be Celtic?

    and most recent settlers of area (most recent settlers typically leave most impact) were various germanic tribes with Goths being especially numerous in north Italy and a bit less in mid Italy while they did not really settle in south... which maps to what we see in S28
    There where 4 "celtic" tribes that I know of which settled in lombardy and emilia-romagna ( north Italy). Surely they did not all posses the same haplotype

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I think you totally didn't understand at all why I brought up Grimm's Law. If you say that the name is older than the Germanic languages (which in itself requires quite a stretch of belief, in my opinion, and that's an understatement since you want to link it with an ethnic name that existed 2000 years earlier), then it requires it to be older than Grimm's Law. We do not know when Grimm's Law happened, the conservative approach says it occured in the early iron age - modern estimates put it around the 1st century BC. In any case, unless you assume that the name "Chatti" entered into the Germanic language after Grimm's Law occured, then one must assume that the name was shifted from a different form before Grimm's Law. I've told you that this would be something akin to *Kaddi. Since Kaddi is obviously different from "Hatti", there goes your connection.
    you assume Germanic people never mixed with non Germanic people...
    but they clearly did, otherwise they would be all of same haplogroup...

    so Chatti could have easily been a later addition to Germanic people....
    it is possible that Chatti enter into Germania later than Grim's law and accepted language of environment... it is also possible that Hatti were in fact Kaddi but written as Hatti in a language that recorded them or in fact wrongly thought by modern scientists that what they see written was actually read as Hatti and not Kaddi ....those are very similar sounds Kaddi and Hatti and we do not really have live speakers of ancient languages.......

    Grim's law in fact only relates similar words - otherwise it would not exist as people do not make sudden shifts changing letters in their speech by deciding so...its a process in which one form slowly goes to similar one... so, what Grim's law implicitly says is that Kaddi is similar to (c)Hatti...

    to conclude, your misuse of Grimm's law, proves nothing...
    you assume too much, which is contrary to occam's razor..

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    possible indication of S-28 being east Germanic is its correlation with kingdom of Alans and east germanic Vandals in north Africa





    Goths would differ from Vandals by having also some I2b - especially Osthrogoths as more east Goths who attacked roman empire in areas south of Black sea probably included some I2b from west black sea coast..

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