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Thread: Is there any difference between Kosovo Albanians and Albanians from Albania?

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    Is there any difference between Kosovo Albanians and Albanians from Albania?



    Autosomally speaking? Their Y-DNA have some clear differences with the presence of Slavic Haplogroups (I2a2 and R1a) in Albanians from Albania although i 've seen a map where Kosovars cluster more Northern and Eastern at the same time.
    How it's this?

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    surely there was some differences between Ghegs and Tosks yet? on the phenotypical side there are differences not of nature but of distributions of some features (Ghegs more "dinaric "and "nordic" as a whole, with a so called "atlanto-mediterranean" strain, Toscs more "alpine" - even if none of these criterias matche very well, surely there could be differences about DNA-Y, DNA-mt and autosomals but I have no analysis about Albanians - maybe Ksovoars are closer to Ghegs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    surely there was some differences between Ghegs and Tosks yet? on the phenotypical side there are differences not of nature but of distributions of some features (Ghegs more "dinaric "and "nordic" as a whole, with a so called "atlanto-mediterranean" strain, Toscs more "alpine" - even if none of these criterias matche very well, surely there could be differences about DNA-Y, DNA-mt and autosomals but I have no analysis about Albanians - maybe Ksovoars are closer to Ghegs?
    Well Kosovars apparently are Ghegs.

    Tosks are the one that show a higher presence of Slavic Haplogroups though.

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    here i found the only genetic autosomal map where both alabanians from albania and albanians from kossovo were included


    Albanians from Kossovo seem more northern and eastern europeans than albanians from albania

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    here i found the only genetic autosomal map where both alabanians from albania and albanians from kossovo were included


    Albanians from Kossovo seem more northern and eastern europeans than albanians from albania
    Yeah but i can't explain how Kosovars can be more Eastern since they have no Slavic haplogroups.
    I can see why they would be more north(High I1 and I2b percentage)

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    The Swiss, always so damn neutral and centrist, even in their genetics...

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    here i found the only genetic autosomal map where both alabanians from albania and albanians from kossovo were included


    Albanians from Kossovo seem more northern and eastern europeans than albanians from albania
    Something is wrong with that map, at least regarding Slovakia (SK).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ciccogol View Post
    The Swiss, always so damn neutral and centrist, even in their genetics...
    in the middle yes but very mixed - Switzerland shows very variated and astonishing phenotypes (not too rarely -> someones with indo-afghan connexions and other a little 'finn'! it is funny for a so little mountainous land ...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Autosomally speaking? Their Y-DNA have some clear differences with the presence of Slavic Haplogroups (I2a2 and R1a) in Albanians from Albania although i 've seen a map where Kosovars cluster more Northern and Eastern at the same time.
    How it's this?
    I will try to give you some answers:

    You should probably read about the history of the Gheg and Tosk Albanians, it gives a lot of information to your question. Slavic admixture in Albania could have happened during the Hoxhas time, but it could have happened in the 7th century AD as well (invasion of Slavs in the south all the way down to the Peloponnese).

    Regarding Gheg speakers, they were historically in constant struggle with Slavs, therefore tried to avoid mixed marriages. Even when this happened those marriages were not accepted by the Gheg community and usually the children became Serb or Montenegrin. I have my close relatives (three of them) who have been assimilated into Serbs by marriage. While, for example, Croatian & German ladies never had a problem to get integrated.

    Ghegs are the north Albanians that are spread in Kosova, Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia. This is a good map (from wikipedia) showing the distribution of the Gheg and Tosk:

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBS View Post
    I will try to give you some answers:

    You should probably read about the history of the Gheg and Tosk Albanians, it gives a lot of information to your question. Slavic admixture in Albania could have happened during the Hoxhas time, but it could have happened in the 7th century AD as well (invasion of Slavs in the south all the way down to the Peloponnese).

    Regarding Gheg speakers, they were historically in constant struggle with Slavs, therefore tried to avoid mixed marriages. Even when this happened those marriages were not accepted by the Gheg community and usually the children became Serb or Montenegrin. I have my close relatives (three of them) who have been assimilated into Serbs by marriage. While, for example, Croatian & German ladies never had a problem to get integrated.

    Ghegs are the north Albanians that are spread in Kosova, Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia. This is a good map (from wikipedia) showing the distribution of the Gheg and Tosk:
    i find the map amazing in the sense it shows the southern illyrian border (( drin river) , around 360BC )with the start of the northern albanian languages. more proof that albanian are not historically illyrian.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    here i found the only genetic autosomal map where both alabanians from albania and albanians from kossovo were included


    Albanians from Kossovo seem more northern and eastern europeans than albanians from albania
    Albanians seem closer to Greeks than to Albanians from Kosovo. I think that Albanians will be even more closer to Greeks if the Ghegs from Northern Albania and the Tosks south of the Drin riven (Greek historical cultural sphere) will be categorized seperately.

    The tosks are probably descendants of Greeks or of tribes who did not call themselves Greeks, but did share common decent with them in pre-history. Probably both could apply.

    It also makes sense based on what albanologist Dr. Kaplan Resuli had to say about Albanians: - When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non albanian language and retains its non albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others.

    So the first point to make is that the ancestors of the Albanians were very few in numbers only a century ago. Just 700.000 of which half of them were actually not Albanians. North of the Drin river there were 15% of South Slavs (more I1 and I2b) and South of the Drin river there were at least 25% Vlachs and Greeks. The Vlachs are probably very close to the Greeks and the rest of Southern Albanians genetically because they are Latinised indigenous Balkanian tribes who historically were either Greek or related to the Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Albanians seem closer to Greeks than to Albanians from Kosovo. I think that Albanians will be even more closer to Greeks if the Ghegs from Northern Albania and the Tosks south of the Drin riven (Greek historical cultural sphere) will be categorized seperately.

    The tosks are probably descendants of Greeks or of tribes who did not call themselves Greeks, but did share common decent with them in pre-history. Probably both could apply.
    So let me see if I understand this right. At some point there were Greek descendants, under the Greek sphere of influence that considered themselves not Greek? Am i right? Well that seems legitimate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    It also makes sense based on what albanologist Dr. Kaplan Resuli had to say about Albanians: - When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non albanian language and retains its non albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others.


    This is sensless. If you would know even a bit about the History of Albania you would know that if those figures were true the Albania we all know today would be much much smaller. Albania had no political, economical or any sort of power in 1912 and you're tryin' to make us believe that with ~15% or more Slav population in Albania, XX century nationalist Serbia who was desperately in search of new territory just let it go like nothing happened and allowed over 100.000 Serbs to be assimilated? That doesn't make sense, does it?

    Furthermore it has only passed 100 years from Albanian independence, so whats that? 3-4 generations? So you're statement and this Dr. implies that these 20% Vlach and 15% Slav got assimilated within ~25 years (1912-1939). Is that even possible?

    Andguy, so called Dr. is not an albanologist rather a charlatan of the opposite direction, trying to make this sort of claims to sell his books, more like the that other guy Yetos mentions all the time...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endri View Post
    So let me see if I understand this right. At some point there were Greek descendants, under the Greek sphere of influence that considered themselves not Greek? Am i right? Well that seems legitimate...
    In ancient times, the Balkans (in places like Greece, Albania, FYROM, Bulgaria) were populated by the same bulk of tribes which arrived there in pre-historical times. The Greek ethnogenesis was only formed much later, in the 2nd and 1st century BC, through invasions of indo-european tribes, myths and political events. What constituted a Greek or non-Greek was primarily based on culture, not race. It is very plausible that beyond the Greek world as we know it, the people were not very different from the Greeks genetically. Not to mention that around the 5th century AD there were many Greek colonies south of the Drin river. Judging by the fact that South Albanians are very close to Greeks genetically, this makes prefect sense. They are A) descendants of paleo-balkanic tribes like the Greeks and b) descendants of Greek colonisers.


    This is sensless. If you would know even a bit about the History of Albania you would know that if those figures were true the Albania we all know today would be much much smaller. Albania had no political, economical or any sort of power in 1912 and you're tryin' to make us believe that with ~15% or more Slav population in Albania, XX century nationalist Serbia who was desperately in search of new territory just let it go like nothing happened and allowed over 100.000 Serbs to be assimilated? That doesn't make sense, does it?
    Furthermore it has only passed 100 years from Albanian independence, so whats that? 3-4 generations? So you're statement and this Dr. implies that these 20% Vlach and 15% Slav got assimilated within ~25 years (1912-1939). Is that even possible?
    Vlachs have been subjects to a horrific policy of assimilation by all the states which gained pieces of the territories inhabited by them. There could easily have been 20% of Vlachs in Albania considering there are still 200.000 Vlachs there today around the region of Vlora, Voskopoja, Moscopole. That's 7% of the total population of Albania today. I wouldn't be the least surprised if these Vlachs are genetically identical to south Albanians and Greeks. Some estimates of Bulgarians in Albania go up to 100.000. Likewise there are up to 30.000 Serbs in Albania.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_Albania
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_in_Albania
    http://imbeurope.org/embracepdf/prof...hinalbania.pdf

    So by today's accounts we can find a total of more than 500.000 Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians and Serbs in Albania. That's 18% of the total population. While according to the Albanologist that number was up to 40% procent a century ago. Definately not an impossibility considering Albania's history. That said, even if it as overstatement, it is a clear indication that Albania is not a homogenous country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    In ancient times, the Balkans (in places like Greece, Albania, FYROM, Bulgaria) were populated by the same bulk of tribes which arrived there in pre-historical times. The Greek ethnogenesis was only formed much later, in the 2nd and 1st century BC, through invasions of indo-european tribes, myths and political events. What constituted a Greek or non-Greek was primarily based on culture, not race. It is very plausible that beyond the Greek world as we know it, the people were not very different from the Greeks genetically. Not to mention that around the 5th century AD there were many Greek colonies south of the Drin river. Judging by the fact that South Albanians are very close to Greeks genetically, this makes prefect sense. They are A) descendants of paleo-balkanic tribes like the Greeks and b) descendants of Greek colonisers.

    Just to make clear. When I say Greek I do not mean a native whom from Greek influence at that time might have considered himself Greek, but I doubt Greeks considered him Greek.

    The Greek colonies might have had a "ethnic" Greek majority at the time they were founded but these cities reached populations of 40-50.000 or more. Apolonia at the first century AD had more than 60.000 inhabitants. If you're trying to tell me that these 60.000 were all Greeks from Corinth, taking in count the Roman Empire and the ease that people at that time had to move from one city to another within the Roman Empire, well i'll be surprised...

    Vlachs, Greeks, Spaniards, southern Italians, southern Albanians and mediteranean persons more or less look the same which, as far as I understand means similar ancestry, way before the creation of a Greek identity or things like that. Is like saying that E-V13 belongs to a certain ethnic group...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Vlachs have been subjects to a horrific policy of assimilation by all the states which gained pieces of the territories inhabited by them. There could easily have been 20% of Vlachs in Albania considering there are still 200.000 Vlachs there today around the region of Vlora, Voskopoja, Moscopole. That's 7% of the total population of Albania today. I wouldn't be the least surprised if these Vlachs are genetically identical to south Albanians and Greeks. Some estimates of Bulgarians in Albania go up to 100.000. Likewise there are up to 30.000 Serbs in Albania.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_Albania
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_in_Albania
    http://imbeurope.org/embracepdf/profiles/vlachinalbania.pdf


    They have been but not in Albania, at least not after 1912, and especially not between 1912-1944. Albanian history after 1912 is very well documented and if such assimilation have happened during the time Albania barely had a state well then you sure have a vivid imagination.

    200,000 Vlachs would mean ~20% of Albanian pop. If there were 200.000 Vlachs I would know since I live in a area where they should live. But the Vlach problem is not Albania or the Albanians but the Greek Gov. Pretty much every Vlach outside Korca considers says his Greek so you can't count the same person Vlach and Greek (this is not for discussion as are blatant proves).

    About Bulgarians, if they were 100.000 or ~10% I would have heard of them again. Cause with these % both Vlachs and Bulgarians would have had a considerable part of the Albanian Parliment. Unfortunately or not the reality is that they aren't even more that an exaggerated 5.000 and these do not know what they are. Same family, one son declares he is Bulgarian and the other Macedonian. They're pretty undecided.

    And the Serb or Montenegrin numbers are still way exaggerated. Reality? I would be surprised if they even are more than 3.000. You should just look the map on wikipedia where the Serb community should live. You really think that area there with mountains over 2000m can hold 30.000 people? Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    So by today's accounts we can find a total of more than 500.000 Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians and Serbs in Albania. That's 18% of the total population. While according to the Albanologist that number was up to 40% procent a century ago. Definately not an impossibility considering Albania's history. That said, even if it as overstatement, it is a clear indication that Albania is not a homogenous country.
    Yea, sure. As the census expectation each country had about the census in Albanian. If you would amount their expectations in Albanian should live 2.100.000 Greeks, Vlachs, Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Bulgarians and some other nationalities out of a total of 2.800.000. Sure...

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    I double posted. See below.
    Last edited by Dianatomia; 07-08-12 at 10:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endri View Post

    Just to make clear. When I say Greek I do not mean a native whom from Greek influence at that time might have considered himself Greek, but I doubt Greeks considered him Greek.

    The Greek colonies might have had a "ethnic" Greek majority at the time they were founded but these cities reached populations of 40-50.000 or more. Apolonia at the first century AD had more than 60.000 inhabitants. If you're trying to tell me that these 60.000 were all Greeks from Corinth, taking in count the Roman Empire and the ease that people at that time had to move from one city to another within the Roman Empire, well i'll be surprised...Vlachs, Greeks, Spaniards, southern Italians, southern Albanians and mediteranean persons more or less look the same which, as far as I understand means similar ancestry, way before the creation of a Greek identity or things like that. Is like saying that E-V13 belongs to a certain ethnic group...
    It is very likely that these Greek colonies, once they flurished, attracted a lot of locals. But the question is, how can we classify these locals. You mention 'ethnic' Greeks in Apolonia. I'm guessing that you mean that there were many Hellenised people among them. Well sure, but the Greeks from Corinth who hellenised them where Hellenized at some point also.

    And my point is that South Albanians and Greeks are not identical like say Greeks and Spaniards are. They just look alike to the untrained eye, but are considerably different. Greeks and Albanians however are practically overlapping genetically. Moreover, Souths Albanians are closer to Greeks than to Kosovars. Actually, according to the chart in earlier posts, Albanians in general are much closer to Greeks than Kosovars. So we are talking about a fair amount of genetic diversity among Albanians who only occupy a relatively small space.

    All things considered, and taking into account that Albania was not very densely populated historically (up to 200.000 people lived in Albania up to the year 1600). We could argue that genetically the Greeks, due to ancient and medieval population movements and historical occurences may have influenced the Albanians (especially the Tosks) considerably even though they were very similar to begin with.

    The problem is that Albanian history is not well documented before the 20th century.

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    Albanians are pretty much Southern Italians/Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wormhole View Post
    Albanians are pretty much Southern Italians/Greeks.
    The Gheghs are quite different from Southern Italians/Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wormhole View Post
    Albanians are pretty much Southern Italians/Greeks.
    Actually not. Albanians are an isolated group in the general Balkan cluster.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Albanians are not closer to greeks. Albanians in Albania are closer to Kosovar Albanians. J2 is high among South-Albanians, it's also found as the 3rd highest in Kosovo Albanians. Only difference is Albanians in Albania seem to of mixed with Slavs compared to Kosovar Albanians.

    Besides Albanians are also in Montenegro and Macedonia.

    You are saying that South-Albanians are Greek Epirotes. Well, when you think of Epirus you are thinking of a little region in South-Albania and North-west Greece. Epirus was at one point much larger all the way up to Central-Albania.

    And you are saying somehow these Greek Epirots became Albanians. Not sure if serious. This was during the Ottoman Empire. doesn't even make sense how they could of become Albanians, I think the opposite happened, Albanians of Orthodox greek religion became Greeks and helped Greeks in the Greek war against Ottomans.

    In the Book of Marin Barleti he calls his people, the people living in Kosovo, Macedonia and todays Albania for Epirots. He mentions how Epirots from Dibra came to help Skanderbeg. If Epirots are Greeks since when did Greeks live in Diber or Kosovo? This was called the league of lezhe. Marin Barleti claimed these people (his people) descendant from Epirots.these people are clearly Albanians (Arbereshe), but this war was at a point a nationalistic war where Arbereshe started identifying with their ancestry so they called themselves Epirots. This is why you have Skanderbeg claiming ancestry from Epirots in a letter. But Greeks see this as him being Greek. if he was Greek clearly all Albanians must be Greek too since they all in the middle ages actually did identify as Epirots. He called the region of Albania and Kosovo as Epirus. It was at one point by Albanians called Arberia. They all claimed also ancestry from ancient-macedonians.

    Claiming that all south-Albanians at one point where ''Greeks'' just doesn't make sense.. since it's the opposite that totally happened. Greeks didn't become Albanians,South-Albanians became Greeks due to their Greek Orthodox religion (SEE: Arvanite) also a fine greek documentary on youtube about this and South Albanians playing part in Greek indpendence war. And if I must remind you neither Barleti or Skanderbeg were South-Albanians. They were both Gegs from Kruje.

    Catholic was synonom with being Italian, a latin. Greek Orthodox was synonom with being a Greek. and Muslim was with being a Turk. Some of the Greek Orthodox Albanians were called Greeks by writers at that time even though they weren't. So this is how it happened that Albanians, the Arvanite, (which actually is a greek word for Albanian (today it's Alvanus). just like the turkish word Arnaut for Albanians) assimilated with Greeks.

    As for the Arbereshe in Italy can you show me the genetic tests that were done on them? Where did you get that they were high I2a? There are Arbereshe in Ukraine too that moved there during 15th and 16th century. and they don't use the word Arbereshe anymore, they call themselves Shqiptar. if you search on youtube: Shqiptaret ne Ukraine. you can find it. Also the I2a in north Albanians comes from Intermarriages with Montenigrins through time. They shared the same Catholic religion as them.

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    Population Language Family[1] R1b R1a I E1b1b J
    Albanians IE (Albanian) 17.6 9.8 19.6 21.6 23.5
    Serbs IE (Slavic, South) 10.6 15.9 36.3 21.2 8
    Albanians Kosova IE (Albanian) 21.1 4.4 7.9 47.4 16.7
    Greeks IE (Greek) 13.5 11.1 15.8 31.6 19.9
    Turks Altaic (Turkic) 20.3 11.9 6.8 13.6 30.5

    I am no dna expert and tracing origins is very complex, but this is my educated belief based on the above data from wikipedia.
    I have organised this by haplogroups:
    R1b (west european) - Kosovars have the highest percentage of this, followed by Albanians. This goes
    along with the idea that they descend from the Illyrians and the Illyrians were non-slavic
    tribes from the west/north. The serbs have the lowest of this haplogroup which follows along
    with their slavic eastern background. The surprise is the turks which show a high percentage of
    this gene, somehow the turks have more west-european genes than most people think. So far,
    albanians are closer to kosovars than to greeks.

    R1a (east-european, slavic) - In this group the albanians are closer to the greeks than to kosovars.

    I (latin, german) - In this group the albanians are closer to greeks than to kosovars.

    E1b1b (north-west african, phoenician, pelasgian) - In this group albanians are closer to the greeks. However, these numbers are
    quite surprising to me; it seems the greeks are more pelasgian than the albanians but the kosovars are more pelasgian than the greeks.

    J (babylonian, arabic) - The turks by a large distance score the highest on this one, since they're closer to mesopotamia. As far as our question goes,
    this is a tie, the distance albanian-kosovar is the same as the distance albanian-greek. What is surprising is that the greeks are again
    in the middle, meaning greeks are more babylonian than kosovars but albanians are more babylonian than greeks.

    Based on this analysis the albanians, kosovars, and greeks are very homogenous populations. If we take out the language barriers, from a world perspective
    genetically they could be considered the same people. Historically this goes along with the fact that for at least a thousand years these people were the
    backbone of the byzantine empire.
    A more plausible and modern argument is that a large percentage of today's greeks were actually albanian in 1832, when greece declared its indipendence from
    turkey. This goes along with historic records showing that when greece declared its indipendence, 40-50% of its population was speaking albanian,
    especially in the north and west greece.

    Another idea shown from this data is that the serbs are heavily mixed with pre-slavic groups in the balkans. They seem to be genetically closer to albanians
    than to greeks or turks. This goes along with history and geography. However they still maintain their differences shown by the large percentages of R1a and I haplogroups.

    As an endnote, these differences are extremely trivial if we compare the above populations with people from other race groups. In fact europe has by far the most homogenous population of all contine

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    A more plausible and modern argument is that a large percentage of today's greeks were actually albanian in 1832, when greece declared its indipendence from
    turkey. This goes along with historic records showing that when greece declared its indipendence, 40-50% of its population was speaking albanian,
    especially in the north and west greece.
    Albanians settled in very specidic places in Greece and by no account could they have reached remotely close to the numbers you propose.

    Here is a genetic research which sheds some light on the origin of some haplogroups in Albanians:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/07/...explained.html

    The conclusion from this research is basicly that the haplogroups in Albanians and Greeks are more diverse in Greeks which are also found in Calabrians (colonised by Greeks prior to 1000 AD). Hence Albanians are to a great degree descendants of Greek colonisers and/or in any case "have markers which proliferated among Greeks and spread from there".

    It is also interesting to read the comments were this is more thoroughly explained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Population Language Family[1] R1b R1a I E1b1b J
    Albanians IE (Albanian) 17.6 9.8 19.6 21.6 23.5
    Serbs IE (Slavic, South) 10.6 15.9 36.3 21.2 8
    Albanians Kosova IE (Albanian) 21.1 4.4 7.9 47.4 16.7
    Greeks IE (Greek) 13.5 11.1 15.8 31.6 19.9
    Turks Altaic (Turkic) 20.3 11.9 6.8 13.6 30.5

    I am no dna expert and tracing origins is very complex, but this is my educated belief based on the above data from wikipedia.
    I have organised this by haplogroups:
    R1b (west european) - Kosovars have the highest percentage of this, followed by Albanians. This goes
    along with the idea that they descend from the Illyrians and the Illyrians were non-slavic
    tribes from the west/north. The serbs have the lowest of this haplogroup which follows along
    with their slavic eastern background. The surprise is the turks which show a high percentage of
    this gene, somehow the turks have more west-european genes than most people think. So far,
    albanians are closer to kosovars than to greeks.

    R1a (east-european, slavic) - In this group the albanians are closer to the greeks than to kosovars.

    I (latin, german) - In this group the albanians are closer to greeks than to kosovars.

    E1b1b (north-west african, phoenician, pelasgian) - In this group albanians are closer to the greeks. However, these numbers are
    quite surprising to me; it seems the greeks are more pelasgian than the albanians but the kosovars are more pelasgian than the greeks.

    J (babylonian, arabic) - The turks by a large distance score the highest on this one, since they're closer to mesopotamia. As far as our question goes,
    this is a tie, the distance albanian-kosovar is the same as the distance albanian-greek. What is surprising is that the greeks are again
    in the middle, meaning greeks are more babylonian than kosovars but albanians are more babylonian than greeks.

    Based on this analysis the albanians, kosovars, and greeks are very homogenous populations. If we take out the language barriers, from a world perspective
    genetically they could be considered the same people. Historically this goes along with the fact that for at least a thousand years these people were the
    backbone of the byzantine empire.
    A more plausible and modern argument is that a large percentage of today's greeks were actually albanian in 1832, when greece declared its indipendence from
    turkey. This goes along with historic records showing that when greece declared its indipendence, 40-50% of its population was speaking albanian,
    especially in the north and west greece.

    Another idea shown from this data is that the serbs are heavily mixed with pre-slavic groups in the balkans. They seem to be genetically closer to albanians
    than to greeks or turks. This goes along with history and geography. However they still maintain their differences shown by the large percentages of R1a and I haplogroups.

    As an endnote, these differences are extremely trivial if we compare the above populations with people from other race groups. In fact europe has by far the most homogenous population of all contine
    some of your thoughts and number areincorrect,

    for example R1b could be risen at roman empire from roman legions or roman colonists,
    R1a is still strange for me, I don't believe that entered at Slavic migration cause that means that R1a slavicise all balkans so to become Greek? !!!!
    Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b
    so it is the more details like DYS etc which can help realize.

    the E hg is strange case since is connecting with Cyprus and Phoenicians and Kadmeians it seems that was a population entered at balkans from Greece but at archaic times another wave went to Albania which took mountains at Illyrian wars with rome,

    the population you mention as 50% of Greece at 1820 is tottaly wrong,
    Albanian population was limited where Latin rulers allow it around Athens Theba and some areas in Morea estimated about 150 000 at 1991 from which about 1/3 are Aromani from Albania (Latin speakers-Vlachs) (every ten years population statistics),
    especially Northen Greece was not speaking Albanian but Slavomakedonian as third language after Greek and Turkish, Albanians in North Greece lived in the same villages with Turks almost sharing same temples and serve as soldiers of Ottomans. the fights among Greeks and Albanians in North Greece are mention even today, especially in the mountains.
    Greek colonisation in Albania is ancient and from history we learn that unite with Illyrians to the mountains so it is difficult to distinguish which is who since same population that colonise until Durress and Lissos. almost the same population return after the liberty of Greece from Ottomans.

    a good example to understand 1821 is to find the story of 2 man, Ανδρουτσος and Διακος, Andruzzo (Italian name) Diakos, who grow them up, who was their stepfather and who learn them to fight.
    Last edited by Yetos; 21-11-12 at 03:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Albanians settled in very specidic places in Greece and by no account could they have reached remotely close to the numbers you propose.

    Here is a genetic research which sheds some light on the origin of some haplogroups in Albanians:


    The conclusion from this research is basicly that the haplogroups in Albanians and Greeks are more diverse in Greeks which are also found in Calabrians (colonised by Greeks prior to 1000 AD). Hence Albanians are to a great degree descendants of Greek colonisers and/or in any case "have markers which proliferated among Greeks and spread from there".

    It is also interesting to read the comments were this is more thoroughly explained.
    Claiming that albanians descend from the greeks is quite a statement. Especially since there has been no formal country named greece between 27 BC and 1835 AD. Do you have any scientific papers that support this conclusion? The link that you gave is just an anonymous blog post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    some of your thoughts and number areincorrect,

    for example R1b could be risen at roman empire from roman legions or roman colonists,
    R1a is still strange for me, I don't believe that entered at Slavic migration cause that means that R1a slavicise all balkans so to become Greek? !!!!
    Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b
    so it is the more details like DYS etc which can help realize.

    the E hg is strange case since is connecting with Cyprus and Phoenicians and Kadmeians it seems that was a population entered at balkans from Greece but at archaic times another wave went to Albania which took mountains at Illyrian wars with rome,

    the population you mention as 50% of Greece at 1820 is tottaly wrong,
    Albanian population was limited where Latin rulers allow it around Athens Theba and some areas in Morea estimated about 150 000 at 1991 from which about 1/3 are Aromani from Albania (Latin speakers-Vlachs) (every ten years population statistics),
    especially Northen Greece was not speaking Albanian but Slavomakedonian as third language after Greek and Turkish, Albanians in North Greece lived in the same villages with Turks almost sharing same temples and serve as soldiers of Ottomans. the fights among Greeks and Albanians in North Greece are mention even today, especially in the mountains.
    Greek colonisation in Albania is ancient and from history we learn that unite with Illyrians to the mountains so it is difficult to distinguish which is who since same population that colonise until Durress and Lissos. almost the same population return after the liberty of Greece from Ottomans.

    a good example to understand 1821 is to find the story of 2 man, Ανδρουτσος and Διακος, Andruzzo (Italian name) Diakos, who grow them up, who was their stepfather and who learn them to fight.

    In my opinion both albanians and greek genes show traces of slavization through R1a (although greeks appear to be slightly more slavicized).
    This is because R1a is found in high percentages in slavic populations; especially in russia, poland, and ukraine (60%, 56%, and 54% respectively).
    This goes along with the fact that the bulgarian empire included half of albania and greece for at least 200 years in the 9-th and 10-th century.

    What sources are you using when saying: "Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b".
    Through my limited research I have not been able to find this information online.

    The topic of greek indipendence in the 1800-s is also quite interesting considering that a large number of the heroes that fought for it were christian albanians (example Marko Botsaris the leader of Suli).
    I agree with you that a great number of the villains were also muslim albanians (ex. Ali Pasha, Omer Vrioni etc). However these figures were not just against the greeks, they were primarily against the christian albanians, which was a persecuted group in the ottoman empire. For example Ali pasha (1740-1822), forcefully converted to islam a large number of villages in southern albania. And even Ali pasha near the end of his reign, allied with the albanian christians and the greeks against the turks. Then the turks finally killed him and send his head as a trophy in Instanbul.
    Ali pasha-s center was Ioannina which is deep into greece and kind of far from the present day albanian border, so that puts in question as to who was in greece during the 1800-s.

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