Is there any difference between Kosovo Albanians and Albanians from Albania?

Population Language Family[1] R1b R1a I E1b1b J
Albanians IE (Albanian) 17.6 9.8 19.6 21.6 23.5
Serbs IE (Slavic, South) 10.6 15.9 36.3 21.2 8
Albanians Kosova IE (Albanian) 21.1 4.4 7.9 47.4 16.7
Greeks IE (Greek) 13.5 11.1 15.8 31.6 19.9
Turks Altaic (Turkic) 20.3 11.9 6.8 13.6 30.5

I am no dna expert and tracing origins is very complex, but this is my educated belief based on the above data from wikipedia.
I have organised this by haplogroups:
R1b (west european) - Kosovars have the highest percentage of this, followed by Albanians. This goes
along with the idea that they descend from the Illyrians and the Illyrians were non-slavic
tribes from the west/north. The serbs have the lowest of this haplogroup which follows along
with their slavic eastern background. The surprise is the turks which show a high percentage of
this gene, somehow the turks have more west-european genes than most people think. So far,
albanians are closer to kosovars than to greeks.

R1a (east-european, slavic) - In this group the albanians are closer to the greeks than to kosovars.

I (latin, german) - In this group the albanians are closer to greeks than to kosovars.

E1b1b (north-west african, phoenician, pelasgian) - In this group albanians are closer to the greeks. However, these numbers are
quite surprising to me; it seems the greeks are more pelasgian than the albanians but the kosovars are more pelasgian than the greeks.

J (babylonian, arabic) - The turks by a large distance score the highest on this one, since they're closer to mesopotamia. As far as our question goes,
this is a tie, the distance albanian-kosovar is the same as the distance albanian-greek. What is surprising is that the greeks are again
in the middle, meaning greeks are more babylonian than kosovars but albanians are more babylonian than greeks.

Based on this analysis the albanians, kosovars, and greeks are very homogenous populations. If we take out the language barriers, from a world perspective
genetically they could be considered the same people. Historically this goes along with the fact that for at least a thousand years these people were the
backbone of the byzantine empire.
A more plausible and modern argument is that a large percentage of today's greeks were actually albanian in 1832, when greece declared its indipendence from
turkey. This goes along with historic records showing that when greece declared its indipendence, 40-50% of its population was speaking albanian,
especially in the north and west greece.

Another idea shown from this data is that the serbs are heavily mixed with pre-slavic groups in the balkans. They seem to be genetically closer to albanians
than to greeks or turks. This goes along with history and geography. However they still maintain their differences shown by the large percentages of R1a and I haplogroups.

As an endnote, these differences are extremely trivial if we compare the above populations with people from other race groups. In fact europe has by far the most homogenous population of all contine
 
A more plausible and modern argument is that a large percentage of today's greeks were actually albanian in 1832, when greece declared its indipendence from
turkey. This goes along with historic records showing that when greece declared its indipendence, 40-50% of its population was speaking albanian,
especially in the north and west greece.

Albanians settled in very specidic places in Greece and by no account could they have reached remotely close to the numbers you propose.

Here is a genetic research which sheds some light on the origin of some haplogroups in Albanians:
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

The conclusion from this research is basicly that the haplogroups in Albanians and Greeks are more diverse in Greeks which are also found in Calabrians (colonised by Greeks prior to 1000 AD). Hence Albanians are to a great degree descendants of Greek colonisers and/or in any case "have markers which proliferated among Greeks and spread from there".

It is also interesting to read the comments were this is more thoroughly explained.
 
Population Language Family[1] R1b R1a I E1b1b J
Albanians IE (Albanian) 17.6 9.8 19.6 21.6 23.5
Serbs IE (Slavic, South) 10.6 15.9 36.3 21.2 8
Albanians Kosova IE (Albanian) 21.1 4.4 7.9 47.4 16.7
Greeks IE (Greek) 13.5 11.1 15.8 31.6 19.9
Turks Altaic (Turkic) 20.3 11.9 6.8 13.6 30.5

I am no dna expert and tracing origins is very complex, but this is my educated belief based on the above data from wikipedia.
I have organised this by haplogroups:
R1b (west european) - Kosovars have the highest percentage of this, followed by Albanians. This goes
along with the idea that they descend from the Illyrians and the Illyrians were non-slavic
tribes from the west/north. The serbs have the lowest of this haplogroup which follows along
with their slavic eastern background. The surprise is the turks which show a high percentage of
this gene, somehow the turks have more west-european genes than most people think. So far,
albanians are closer to kosovars than to greeks.

R1a (east-european, slavic) - In this group the albanians are closer to the greeks than to kosovars.

I (latin, german) - In this group the albanians are closer to greeks than to kosovars.

E1b1b (north-west african, phoenician, pelasgian) - In this group albanians are closer to the greeks. However, these numbers are
quite surprising to me; it seems the greeks are more pelasgian than the albanians but the kosovars are more pelasgian than the greeks.

J (babylonian, arabic) - The turks by a large distance score the highest on this one, since they're closer to mesopotamia. As far as our question goes,
this is a tie, the distance albanian-kosovar is the same as the distance albanian-greek. What is surprising is that the greeks are again
in the middle, meaning greeks are more babylonian than kosovars but albanians are more babylonian than greeks.

Based on this analysis the albanians, kosovars, and greeks are very homogenous populations. If we take out the language barriers, from a world perspective
genetically they could be considered the same people. Historically this goes along with the fact that for at least a thousand years these people were the
backbone of the byzantine empire.
A more plausible and modern argument is that a large percentage of today's greeks were actually albanian in 1832, when greece declared its indipendence from
turkey. This goes along with historic records showing that when greece declared its indipendence, 40-50% of its population was speaking albanian,
especially in the north and west greece.

Another idea shown from this data is that the serbs are heavily mixed with pre-slavic groups in the balkans. They seem to be genetically closer to albanians
than to greeks or turks. This goes along with history and geography. However they still maintain their differences shown by the large percentages of R1a and I haplogroups.

As an endnote, these differences are extremely trivial if we compare the above populations with people from other race groups. In fact europe has by far the most homogenous population of all contine

some of your thoughts and number areincorrect,

for example R1b could be risen at roman empire from roman legions or roman colonists,
R1a is still strange for me, I don't believe that entered at Slavic migration cause that means that R1a slavicise all balkans so to become Greek? !!!!
Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b
so it is the more details like DYS etc which can help realize.

the E hg is strange case since is connecting with Cyprus and Phoenicians and Kadmeians it seems that was a population entered at balkans from Greece but at archaic times another wave went to Albania which took mountains at Illyrian wars with rome,

the population you mention as 50% of Greece at 1820 is tottaly wrong,
Albanian population was limited where Latin rulers allow it around Athens Theba and some areas in Morea estimated about 150 000 at 1991 from which about 1/3 are Aromani from Albania (Latin speakers-Vlachs) (every ten years population statistics),
especially Northen Greece was not speaking Albanian but Slavomakedonian as third language after Greek and Turkish, Albanians in North Greece lived in the same villages with Turks almost sharing same temples and serve as soldiers of Ottomans. the fights among Greeks and Albanians in North Greece are mention even today, especially in the mountains.
Greek colonisation in Albania is ancient and from history we learn that unite with Illyrians to the mountains so it is difficult to distinguish which is who since same population that colonise until Durress and Lissos. almost the same population return after the liberty of Greece from Ottomans.

a good example to understand 1821 is to find the story of 2 man, Ανδρουτσος and Διακος, Andruzzo (Italian name) Diakos, who grow them up, who was their stepfather and who learn them to fight.
 
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Albanians settled in very specidic places in Greece and by no account could they have reached remotely close to the numbers you propose.

Here is a genetic research which sheds some light on the origin of some haplogroups in Albanians:


The conclusion from this research is basicly that the haplogroups in Albanians and Greeks are more diverse in Greeks which are also found in Calabrians (colonised by Greeks prior to 1000 AD). Hence Albanians are to a great degree descendants of Greek colonisers and/or in any case "have markers which proliferated among Greeks and spread from there".

It is also interesting to read the comments were this is more thoroughly explained.

Claiming that albanians descend from the greeks is quite a statement. Especially since there has been no formal country named greece between 27 BC and 1835 AD. Do you have any scientific papers that support this conclusion? The link that you gave is just an anonymous blog post.
 
some of your thoughts and number areincorrect,

for example R1b could be risen at roman empire from roman legions or roman colonists,
R1a is still strange for me, I don't believe that entered at Slavic migration cause that means that R1a slavicise all balkans so to become Greek? !!!!
Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b
so it is the more details like DYS etc which can help realize.

the E hg is strange case since is connecting with Cyprus and Phoenicians and Kadmeians it seems that was a population entered at balkans from Greece but at archaic times another wave went to Albania which took mountains at Illyrian wars with rome,

the population you mention as 50% of Greece at 1820 is tottaly wrong,
Albanian population was limited where Latin rulers allow it around Athens Theba and some areas in Morea estimated about 150 000 at 1991 from which about 1/3 are Aromani from Albania (Latin speakers-Vlachs) (every ten years population statistics),
especially Northen Greece was not speaking Albanian but Slavomakedonian as third language after Greek and Turkish, Albanians in North Greece lived in the same villages with Turks almost sharing same temples and serve as soldiers of Ottomans. the fights among Greeks and Albanians in North Greece are mention even today, especially in the mountains.
Greek colonisation in Albania is ancient and from history we learn that unite with Illyrians to the mountains so it is difficult to distinguish which is who since same population that colonise until Durress and Lissos. almost the same population return after the liberty of Greece from Ottomans.

a good example to understand 1821 is to find the story of 2 man, Ανδρουτσος and Διακος, Andruzzo (Italian name) Diakos, who grow them up, who was their stepfather and who learn them to fight.


In my opinion both albanians and greek genes show traces of slavization through R1a (although greeks appear to be slightly more slavicized).
This is because R1a is found in high percentages in slavic populations; especially in russia, poland, and ukraine (60%, 56%, and 54% respectively).
This goes along with the fact that the bulgarian empire included half of albania and greece for at least 200 years in the 9-th and 10-th century.

What sources are you using when saying: "Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b".
Through my limited research I have not been able to find this information online.

The topic of greek indipendence in the 1800-s is also quite interesting considering that a large number of the heroes that fought for it were christian albanians (example Marko Botsaris the leader of Suli).
I agree with you that a great number of the villains were also muslim albanians (ex. Ali Pasha, Omer Vrioni etc). However these figures were not just against the greeks, they were primarily against the christian albanians, which was a persecuted group in the ottoman empire. For example Ali pasha (1740-1822), forcefully converted to islam a large number of villages in southern albania. And even Ali pasha near the end of his reign, allied with the albanian christians and the greeks against the turks. Then the turks finally killed him and send his head as a trophy in Instanbul.
Ali pasha-s center was Ioannina which is deep into greece and kind of far from the present day albanian border, so that puts in question as to who was in greece during the 1800-s.
 
In my opinion both albanians and greek genes show traces of slavization through R1a (although greeks appear to be slightly more slavicized).
This is because R1a is found in high percentages in slavic populations; especially in russia, poland, and ukraine (60%, 56%, and 54% respectively).
This goes along with the fact that the bulgarian empire included half of albania and greece for at least 200 years in the 9-th and 10-th century.

What sources are you using when saying: "Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b".
Through my limited research I have not been able to find this information online.

The topic of greek indipendence in the 1800-s is also quite interesting considering that a large number of the heroes that fought for it were christian albanians (example Marko Botsaris the leader of Suli).
I agree with you that a great number of the villains were also muslim albanians (ex. Ali Pasha, Omer Vrioni etc). However these figures were not just against the greeks, they were primarily against the christian albanians, which was a persecuted group in the ottoman empire. For example Ali pasha (1740-1822), forcefully converted to islam a large number of villages in southern albania. And even Ali pasha near the end of his reign, allied with the albanian christians and the greeks against the turks. Then the turks finally killed him and send his head as a trophy in Instanbul.
Ali pasha-s center was Ioannina which is deep into greece and kind of far from the present day albanian border, so that puts in question as to who was in greece during the 1800-s.

same with Argyrokastron Gjirokaster, historically Greeks supported the Pasha there much more than Albanians, that is why I speak about a confused situation from Apollonia Pogiani to Arta. population there divided more with personal feelings and religion than by blood, cause blood was already mixed from ancient times colonisation.

the R1a is a paradox, South Slavs except Croatia have lower R1a than Greece, so do you find correct the R1a in Greece to be slavic entrance at 600 AD? if yes why they manage to slavicize Serbia Bulgaria Bosnia Kossovo and not Greece, just think that R1a enter Balkans at 600 Ad and in 1 century slavicize from Donav to outside thessaloniki so to become Greek speakers after that? I repeat south Slavic countries have lower R1a.
besides the existance of R1a in south Italy Sarendo in Dorian colonies fits with Trikke (homeland of Dorians) area where R1a is high est 18%-24% so probably that R1a split from Northern R1a around 3500-3000 BC,
the truth is that Slavs manage even reach Peloponese since we find some Slavic toponymes there, and for your information some Arbanites have Slavic names.

I think you did not search for the names I gave,
Andruzzo was an Arbanitan whose godfather and mentor and almost stepfather was a Greek who served russian navy as Admiral Κατσωνης.
Diakos was a Greek who's mentor was an ex-monk Τsam-kalogeros (Cam)

Now the case of Suli and Botsari is also complex, since villages have name of Arbanites Greek Slavs etc,
Paliokatunta the village of Botsari has a greek and and an italo-Arbanitan component,
Palio is Greek and means old
Katunta Κατουντα) is Italo-Arbanitan word for Village
Tsekoyri is a Serb word for axe and one village has that name.
so the effort to make Suliotes as Albanians is wrong cause they were more races among them Arbanites, Greeks Serbs (Slavs) Armanesti etc
the language of Botsari as written in his letters and the lexicon that exists in Paris is a complex cause mainly uses Greek syntax but major Vocabulary is old Albanian and then Greek, Italo-Latin (Vlach) and also some numbered Slavic(Serbian) words
 
Claiming that albanians descend from the greeks is quite a statement. Especially since there has been no formal country named greece between 27 BC and 1835 AD. Do you have any scientific papers that support this conclusion? The link that you gave is just an anonymous blog post.

Greece, like all modern countries, is a political invention. That doesn't mean that there were no Greek peoples before the Greek state. This is what is revelant here.

That said, Albania is a political invention too, and the ethnogenesis of the Albanians is historically far more obscure and uncertain than that of the Greeks.

I never said that the Albanians as a whole are descendants of Greeks. I am saying that some regions of what is now Albania are influenced by Greeks or by people who came from 'Greece' and did not call themselves Greeks yet. I think that genetically there are many indications to one or both of the above claims are valid.
 
what a beautiful game! I see Balkans region is still very alive concerning nationality and frontiers!
If I can temperate the discussion, I 'd say that here we have concerning genetics enough stuff to calmy discuss - It's clear that Albania is not a level population: the differences between Kosovards and Tosks are big enough, I'd say -
as a whole, and it is confirmed by metrics, I'd bet Tosks are close enough, not to all Greece regions, but to Epirus - the Kosovars (and surely enough Ghegs) seam mor 'central' in Balkans, and they show the maximum of Y-E1b-V13 of the world if I don't mistake - I suppose they are the more 'genuine' Albanians that colinize the maritime territories of S-Adriatic Sea north of Greece and south the previous Illyrian territories - linguistic seams telling us 'albanian' is a firstable E-Balkans (Carpathian?) , not W-Balkan language, and I believe the Y-E1b component arrived (when? meso?neolithic?) through South was occupying the central Balkans (I 've not the the rivers net before my eyes to look at), jammed between autochtonous populations (E & W: Y-I2a?) at high density, and not erased by neolithic populations (Y-G2? Y-J2b ? not J2a) if they were more erased by subsequent historic events - I suppose Albanians ancestors did way to Adriatic form farther in E-Balkans-S-Carpathians at some point of history and they got more Y-E1b on their way (maybe they have yet, but it is not sure at all) - arrived on Adriatic shores, north of Epirus, they mixed with previous populations closer to NW Greeks of Greece - (hellenized people, surely enough) -
it would be interesting to have NW Greece autosomals and deeply studied mtDNA to compare to Tosks: a global "ethnic" group is very often without value for ancient History -

a thought of mine: the actual ethnic sketche of Balkans lands is an ever make again patchwork of ancient friends and enemies and if I respect the "ethnic" sentiments I'm doubtful when I see people having all of them some recent enough common blood (compared to protohistoric times, and partially only, it's true) trying to extract some definite truth from a so inextricate history
 
Greece, like all modern countries, is a political invention. That doesn't mean that there were no Greek peoples before the Greek state. This is what is revelant here.

That said, Albania is a political invention too, and the ethnogenesis of the Albanians is historically far more obscure and uncertain than that of the Greeks.

I never said that the Albanians as a whole are descendants of Greeks. I am saying that some regions of what is now Albania are influenced by Greeks or by people who came from 'Greece' and did not call themselves Greeks yet. I think that genetically there are many indications to one or both of the above claims are valid.

If we consider a land route, E is north-west african and J is mesopotamian so probably these 2 groups passed through current greece to get into current albania, but that is meaningless since the current borders were defined in the 20-th century. If we consider a sea route for E, which the phoenicians were famous for, then they could have landed: southern italy -> albania. Either way neither of these groups spoke any greek or originated in greece, at most they passed through greece. In fact the biggest candidate that can claim J are the persians which held parts of eastern greece for hundereds of years. Yes, the greeks won in the end, but they were losing for a long time before that. There are greek stories from that time that say: "when the persian army shot their arrows, the sun would darken", so we're talking about gigantic exodus-like armies coming from persia into eastern and southern greece.
 
If we consider a land route, E is north-west african and J is mesopotamian so probably these 2 groups passed through current greece to get into current albania, but that is meaningless since the current borders were defined in the 20-th century. If we consider a sea route for E, which the phoenicians were famous for, then they could have landed: southern italy -> albania. Either way neither of these groups spoke any greek or originated in greece, at most they passed through greece. In fact the biggest candidate that can claim J are the persians which held parts of eastern greece for hundereds of years. Yes, the greeks won in the end, but they were losing for a long time before that. There are greek stories from that time that say: "when the persian army shot their arrows, the sun would darken", so we're talking about gigantic exodus-like armies coming from persia into eastern and southern greece.

The highest quantities of J among Greeks is in Crete which had little to do with Persians. Also, J in Greece is mostly J2, there is very little to none of J1 (which have probably must have been in some quantities among the Persian armies) in mainland Greece. Even among Greeks from Asia Minor, which have actually been under the Persian empire (mainland Greece, south of Macedonia, did not) J1 is in very low quantities. Also Greek colonies in Magna Graecia have J2 too. So we know that most of it is probably from Ancient Greeks.

Had the Greeks mixed with Persians, more of J1 must have been within the Greek population. The J1 which is scarcely detected in Greeks is probably from interaction from Phoenicians. Minoans could have had some as well. However, I noticed on the above graph by Zanipolo that Macedonian Albanians have high amounts of J1. Bosniacs have some too. This is probably due to interaction with Anatolian Turks.

J1 (Semitic/Arab) is around 2% in Greece (mostly Crete), while it is 3.6 among Albanians and 6.3% among FYROM-Albanians. Also, it is 2.4% among Bosniacs. More than any other surrounding Slavic people. Phoenicians and Persians probably never interacted with Albanians and North-Balkan peoples, so J1 must be from another, much more recent source, i.e. Turks or Arabs.

Note: I don't claim that J1 is Persian, but the Persians (and in any case their armies) surely had it much more than the Greeks.
 
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I do not see any data for Kosovar Albanians in the table posted by Zanipolo. The data are for Albania and for FYROM Albanians.
 
If we consider a land route, E is north-west african and J is mesopotamian so probably these 2 groups passed through current greece to get into current albania, but that is meaningless since the current borders were defined in the 20-th century. If we consider a sea route for E, which the phoenicians were famous for, then they could have landed: southern italy -> albania. Either way neither of these groups spoke any greek or originated in greece, at most they passed through greece. In fact the biggest candidate that can claim J are the persians which held parts of eastern greece for hundereds of years. Yes, the greeks won in the end, but they were losing for a long time before that. There are greek stories from that time that say: "when the persian army shot their arrows, the sun would darken", so we're talking about gigantic exodus-like armies coming from persia into eastern and southern greece.

Search the diversities of E Hg in Greece, Albania-Kossovo
there lay the answer.
E in Balkans is not the same E of Spain, (NWEST) but EAST african that came from Cyprus and Levant (Akkado-cypriots + Levantines-Phoenicians)

In Greece J2a has divesities that are not found in Persia, but aytochthonus, Meaning that J2a means automatically Greek.(*some J2a and not all)
J2a in Greece is more Like Greek and Minor Asian I could use the word Greco-Anatolian
J2a at least the major Greek diversities are not Persian or Babylonian which have their own diversities,
 
If we consider a land route, E is north-west african and J is mesopotamian so probably these 2 groups passed through current greece to get into current albania, but that is meaningless since the current borders were defined in the 20-th century. If we consider a sea route for E, which the phoenicians were famous for, then they could have landed: southern italy -> albania. Either way neither of these groups spoke any greek or originated in greece, at most they passed through greece. In fact the biggest candidate that can claim J are the persians which held parts of eastern greece for hundereds of years. Yes, the greeks won in the end, but they were losing for a long time before that. There are greek stories from that time that say: "when the persian army shot their arrows, the sun would darken", so we're talking about gigantic exodus-like armies coming from persia into eastern and southern greece.

There are 2 theories for albanians with E hg, one, they where from modern area of tunis and tripoli and where thrown out by the phoenicians and the second is an exodus from the southern levant during the hittite-egyptian wars. due to the high concentration of their haplotype, it favours a mass exodus from somewhere ( late bronze age migrational period ). They are not north of the drin river and not in southern epirus
 
By the way, since this is the right thread. Here is another link on differences of Y-chromosomes between Albanian populations.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html

the tiny k m9 is not a migration with E but a different period

In human genetics, Haplogroup K (M9) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup. It first appeared approximately 40,000 years ago in Iran or southern Central Asia.

most likely came with the goths in their invasion of the balkans and italy. The goths gathered different people into their armies around the black sea
 
Search the diversities of E Hg in Greece, Albania-Kossovo
there lay the answer.
E in Balkans is not the same E of Spain, (NWEST) but EAST african that came from Cyprus and Levant (Akkado-cypriots + Levantines-Phoenicians)

In Greece J2a has divesities that are not found in Persia, but aytochthonus, Meaning that J2a means automatically Greek.(*some J2a and not all)
J2a in Greece is more Like Greek and Minor Asian I could use the word Greco-Anatolian
J2a at least the major Greek diversities are not Persian or Babylonian which have their own diversities,

Which J2a subgroups are authoctonous greek? What percentage of current greeks have these subgroups? Please provide scientific publishings.
 
Which J2a subgroups are authoctonous greek? What percentage of current greeks have these subgroups? Please provide scientific publishings.

Why?

you just took a general data found here and you make conclusions,
no further DYS, no mtDNA no autosomal data,
since you could found the data , you can easily find the data I tell you,

by what I remember is M319 M 339 L70 although may I am wrong,

Y-Dna is only one of the tools, a good one, but just one,

J2 Hg is a strange Y-dna that has mother land the areas around of R1b and G,
remarkable is that in India we find almost little to zero R1b but big J2
J2 can be the alternative of R1b and R1a in IE theory with G
J2 can be the Aryan linguistic group,
J2 is connected with Greco-Aryan and Indo-Iranian population, from Zagros devastate to India, and from Zagros to Greece (Διας Ζαγρευς, Κουρητες Etc) and rest mediterrenean colonisation,
it is still unknown when entered Europe, but some suspect that Tripolye was J2a culture,
until today only G is found in Neolithic Europe and R1b and R1a with the known Tumuli theory,
but when did J2?

from Crete we realize that was present at iron age 900-1100BC, but still we don't know if entered same time with G, after G and Before R1 or after G and R1.


in fact Varna Necropolis skeletons are very helpfull.
the presence or lack of J2 or R1 is catalytic to understand many.

the Truth is I myshelf need lessons to understand more genneticks,
but the first lesson i learn is that the highest peak % does not count,
meaning that a population with 80% Hg can come from a population with 2% of the same Hg,
there good genetists in the forum, better than my ignorance to explain why to you.
 

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