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Thread: Bell Beakers from Germany: Y-haplogroup R1b

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    I read very often that peoples are supposed to carry some kinds of genes because on their way they had gone through (crossed) regions inhabited by people carrying these genes - I wrote yet that it was not a fatality in the ancient times (we have proofs of that) - evidently they occurred some genes exchanges during the peoples movements but that did not imply a mixture at a huge scale everytime - it is important to note it - the big crossings occurs when foreign people stay a long time in a yet inhabited region (the present day case in big towns) or when they are but a small number elite...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I would contribute a photo of my great-grandfather and one of my great-great grandfather along my Y-line if you started that here, and I never even did so in the DNA Forums one, despite me being moderately active in that forum.
    I'll give it a try. Does anybody object in principle to the notion of including Y-DNA descendants, as well as ancestors, if it's the same line? It will be a new thread -- I'm only asking here because this is where I brought it up, and there have been several responses.

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    in B.SERGENT (compilation of scholars about I-E) I red (surprised) that 'corded' ware was found in a lot of I-E cultures of the Steppes BUT also 'corded' + Bell Beakers ones was found in one, the Khavlynsk culture in Russia (stage Kurgan III, before -3000?) - if it's true, it's very important, isn't it? putting my poor old brain to work I see: B.B + metal working, metal searching, horse + heavy presence of 'dinaric phenotypes' (Ukraina, numerous enough, but also, lighter, in sepulture of the far Steppes) + Y-I2a: difficult to accord a cradle to all that in Occident! the problem of aging the beakers (some possible prototypes too on Danaw North Croatia in a site that became later the cradle or the "étape" for Italics ancestors: Neolithic Vucedol - my conclusion: the cradle is surely more eastern than western, that makes more sense for me - I think always in the crossroads that was Cucuteni-Tripolje last Neotlhic sites: steppic Ino-Europeans meating well evolved neolithic people (mix where the autochtonous Y-I2a was the denser ones) - possibly the crossings between some Y-I2a and some Y-R1b could have taken place in North Croatia (majority of U152?) yet and NOT AS I THOUGHT before (I'm not sure of any case) in Germany or Switzerland??? - BUT I HOLD ON FOR A REMOTE EASTERN EUROPEAN ORIGIN FOR BELL BEAKERS because for me Southern Iberia was just a destination for prospectors in a first stage - possible first wave of a centum I-Ean speakers group...

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    I mean no offense, but you're too fixated on the "Dinaric phenotype" thing, its name ("Dinaric"), and on connecting it to y haplogroups found frequently among peoples supposedly possessing Dinaric traits today. That is my opinion.

    I-P37.2 has been found at non-Beaker, Neolithic Treilles in France, dated to about 3,000 BC. Thus far, the Kromsdorf Beaker R1b, dated to circa 2600-2500 BC, is the oldest ancient R1b we have.

    Autosomal dna is not stable over the sorts of long periods we are discussing. It can flip and re-flip any number of times over the millennia and is as much influenced by females, who contribute half of the autosomal dna, as males.

    We don't know where the Beaker package began. We also cannot tell exactly who was where that long ago.

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    I think there was a basic Mediterranean-type population inhabiting much of Europe before R1b got there, from the Neolithic villages in the Balkans to those in Iberia, France and even Britain. On the y-dna side of things, it was probably mostly what we have seen thus far from the various Neolithic sites: I2a (P37.2), E1b1b, and G2a.

    I think the Paleolithic and Mesolithic remnants might have been F and perhaps some older kinds of I, and some of them will show up here and there.

    I suspect R1b came up from Anatolia or perhaps even from the western steppe. If it came from the P-C steppe, then it probably left en masse at some point. The void it left was later backfilled by peoples who were mostly R1a.

    These are just my opinions. I could be wrong, of course.

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    I too think all coastal regions of europe got increasingly populated by an unspecific mixed mediterranean-like population, up to scandinavia, where autosomal mediteranean influences is still strong (25-30%). That's probably because maritime coasts represent a unique living environment with mild temperatures.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I mean no offense, but you're too fixated on the "Dinaric phenotype" thing, its name ("Dinaric"), and on connecting it to y haplogroups found frequently among peoples supposedly possessing Dinaric traits today. That is my opinion.

    I-P37.2 has been found at non-Beaker, Neolithic Treilles in France, dated to about 3,000 BC. Thus far, the Kromsdorf Beaker R1b, dated to circa 2600-2500 BC, is the oldest ancient R1b we have.

    Autosomal dna is not stable over the sorts of long periods we are discussing. It can flip and re-flip any number of times over the millennia and is as much influenced by females, who contribute half of the autosomal dna, as males.

    We don't know where the Beaker package began. We also cannot tell exactly who was where that long ago.
    NO OFFENSE, we are ALL doing bets here, finally - BB is just a stage, whatever its origin -
    I shall answer you longer in a short time - just that: autosomals and phenotypes do'nt change so quickly in not too small populations: crossings (immigration, invasion) do very more than internal evolution - we read too much "truisms" like that without any value
    good night

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Originally Posted by rms2
    I mean no offense, but you're too fixated on the "Dinaric phenotype" thing, its name ("Dinaric"), and on connecting it to y haplogroups found frequently among peoples supposedly possessing Dinaric traits today. That is my opinion.


    As I already answered you, no offense, why ?
    I'm not fixated on 'dinaric' phenotype but on new skeletal features (phenotypicial << for a big part genetical, one source or more ?) scattered in Europe at a well defined cultural period (3000 BC and after) in places linked archeologically to a certain culture incompassed in this cultural period – the connexion with modern population possessing these dinaric traits is a bet, but a bet founded on historical and geographical coincidences that make it POSSIBLE (what are we doing here : if everything in History was already proved we should not have to prove any theory, should we ? And the connexion between modern phenotypes and Y-HG (or mt-HG) is also a bet, knowing the weakness of their links with other part of the genome...
    It is necessary to read whole the theory : I'm not speaking about the terminal Bell Beaker world but about the germinal one, the beginning and its sources:I don't believe Celts are true Indo-Europeans, I believe they was accultured, maybe by more than a wave of elites I-Eans... I affirm (modestly and knowing how scarce are the data) that B.B. In not from Western Europe, Or it is a second stage of a culture that was born few years before in Eastern Europe)

    I-P37.2 has been found at non-Beaker, Neolithic Treilles in France, dated to about 3,000 BC. Thus far, the Kromsdorf Beaker R1b, dated to circa 2600-2500 BC, is the oldest ancient R1b we have.


    I have not too precise data concerning this Y-I2a1b subHG but I red it was found for the most of it in N-W Germany and a little bit too in the British Islands : bet : I should not amazed if it was part of the B.B. Of the british Round Barrows people, come from the Netherlands and W. Germany about -2400 – let's be carefull when we speak about « Neolithic » : the 2600/2500 BC period in France is classified « neolithic » and it is said that only about 2200 BC appeared the first Chalcolithic traces – I don't say all the bearers of Y-I-P37.2 (which is a bit « ancestral » and then not too informative compared to more mutated brothers HG) came one together and with the same culture : your interesting precision here asks a more detailed study about traces of B.B. Artefacts (or not) among the neolithical material of Treilles – but on another side, I 'm almost sure the neolithical sites of southern France saw soonest the arrival of Beakers people by Languedoc coasts - So the door is still open...
    for Y-R1b associated to B.B. I'm sure it was the case in the stage of complete western development of this culture, but I'm not sure (for the moment) it was the case at the beginning -


    Autosomal dna is not stable over the sorts of long periods we are discussing. It can flip and re-flip any number of times over the millennia and is as much influenced by females, who contribute half of the autosomal dna, as males.


    - affirmation No proved anyway – autosomals are as a whole very steadier than people believe, in a not too small population, but the ones linked very tight to selection (and yet : some recessive letal genes pass through the centuries because in an heterozygotic environment they have positive effects : so genetic diseases have nothing to do with short endogamy in a lot of cases, despite the popular believing) – OK. Concerning the male-female transmission of biallelic genes, but why not to try : the dominent male elite bias exists surely, more in ancient « barbars » times than now but what is the solution : to consider all these threads are of no worth ? Me and others learn something, finally, don't we ?

    We don't know where the Beaker package began. We also cannot tell exactly who was where that long ago.
    So I do proposals, I have no pretention about being scholar or scientist – positival proposals only...but based on common sense – passive erudition is not sufficient -



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    latest on the bell beakers

    http://u152.org/

    click read more after 1 st page

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    latest on the bell beakers

    http://u152.org/

    click read more after 1 st page
    thank you well - I' ll read it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    BUT the peaks of 'dinarid' types is not there (say in North Dinaric Alps)- and don't you find it surprising seeing so big density of Y-R1b on the Atlantic side where 'dinarid' types are so seldom (even in the Bigouden region I mentionned!)- 'dinarid' type is maybe not a true homozygotic phenotype, but surely it contains a special element that I try to link IF POSSIBLE (and with care) to a Y-HG population - I agree totally that there are drifts bitween autosomal genes distributions and HG distributions and that some male elite populations could have had their weight magnyfied but a SO BIG DISCREPANCY between 'dinarid' (or 'dinaric') types centers of density and Western Atlantic Europe puts me to discard a link between Y-R1b and the 'dinarid' phenotype - Just a point of view, I 'm not God... but if the truth is with you and people thinking as you, we have to admit a unbielivable drift and overgoing of Y-R1b
    I was one of them who favoured R1b over I2 for Dinaric already in another earlier thread if you remember, thus I'm happy now since the confirmation of R1b for (at least few) Bell Beakers.

    In this regard I'd like to note that Coon's textual explanations I personally consider largely as unsound. But his photo samples are still useful as commonly known examples one can refer to. And the existance of dinaric types is undeniable and easy to identify, in my opinion. But the other "races" are mostly mixtures or fantasy. Thus I too would like to add to theories about dinarics:

    I always had the impression that there are at least three variants of "Dinarics" and "Armenoid": the first (R1b-U152 and J2) is stretching along Armenia, Pontus to Italy and parts of France. The second one is "Armenoid" (again R1b and J2) and is found specifically in Armenia. The third type (I2, J2? unclear) is spread around the Balkans, South-Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine, and is probably already longer in europe than the other variants.

    The "un dinaric" regions of the Atlantic coast you mention are different R1b-variants, thus one can assume the first dinaric type in West-Europe is only linked to U152, but not to other R1b variants like L21, S21 etc. The ancient Romans (probably not I2, rather R1b+J2) were also often dinaric and had rather low skulls and looked different from dinaric Albanians or Yugoslavians, who have very high skulls. Also, north Italians (rich R1b) are much more dinaric today than south Italians (much less R1b).
    Also coming back to the admixtures: it seems "Gedrosian" is less related to R1b-U152 rather than to R1b-L21,S21 of the Atlantic coasts, where dinaric types are almost absent. "Dinarics" seem to be more related to "Caucasus", which makes sense given that Bell-Beaker epoch was much later than megalith culture for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    I was one of them who favoured R1b over I2 for Dinaric already in another earlier thread if you remember, thus I'm happy now since the confirmation of R1b for (at least few) Bell Beakers.

    In this regard I'd like to note that Coon's textual explanations I personally consider largely as unsound. But his photo samples are still useful as commonly known examples one can refer to. And the existance of dinaric types is undeniable and easy to identify, in my opinion. But the other "races" are mostly mixtures or fantasy. Thus I too would like to add to theories about dinarics:

    I always had the impression that there are at least three variants of "Dinarics" and "Armenoid": the first (R1b-U152 and J2) is stretching along Armenia, Pontus to Italy and parts of France. The second one is "Armenoid" (again R1b and J2) and is found specifically in Armenia. The third type (I2, J2? unclear) is spread around the Balkans, South-Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine, and is probably already longer in europe than the other variants.

    The "un dinaric" regions of the Atlantic coast you mention are different R1b-variants, thus one can assume the first dinaric type in West-Europe is only linked to U152, but not to other R1b variants like L21, S21 etc. The ancient Romans (probably not I2, rather R1b+J2) were also often dinaric and had rather low skulls and looked different from dinaric Albanians or Yugoslavians, who have very high skulls. Also, north Italians (rich R1b) are much more dinaric today than south Italians (much less R1b).
    Also coming back to the admixtures: it seems "Gedrosian" is less related to R1b-U152 rather than to R1b-L21,S21 of the Atlantic coasts, where dinaric types are almost absent. "Dinarics" seem to be more related to "Caucasus", which makes sense given that Bell-Beaker epoch was much later than megalith culture for instance.
    I 'm not able as you to go so deeply in details -
    the genetic proximity for Y-DNA of R1b-U152 to other occidental "young" R1b (L21, SY2627...), even to U106, put me to doubt about a 'dinaric' condition for U152 only and not for the others: given its geographical position I can figure out an 'alpine' phenotypic evolution (by paelo-mesolithical origin OR by absorbtion of previous people autosomals in the Alps - by origin or by admixture the problem stays the same: these regions are richer for 'alpine' types than for 'dinaric types' (the region rich for 'dinaric types' are the poorest for U152 in this half-western meta-region - even in Croatia, the 'alpine' type element is stronger in North, where 'dinaric' types AND Y-I2a1b, as by hazard, is weaker -
    I have the problem, if I try to link Y-HG and phenotype, that 'dinaric' types are found among rich I2a1b populations, BUT ALSO among some rich enough for Y-E1b (greco-balkanic HG) -
    if I accept that some 'dinaric' traits are genetically dominent, and sufficient to push some anthropologists to exagerate the true weight of 'dinaric' in populations, based on only some characteristic features of crane, so I can evacuate the E1b problem (thorn in my foot!) - I have to say that I do'nt find so high 'dinaric' element among Armenians (previously they deformed the skulls of their children, as other peoples of Anatolia) by a special cradle use) - maybe more among Kurds (and yet, their tribes are not so homogenous... maybe some Y-J2 (J is genetically not too far from I) had already AS Y-I a predisposition to turn into 'dinarics' under some unclear influence (theory2: 'dinaric' is not an homozygotic phenotype [theory 1] but a well determined crossing OR theory 3: its an unstable evolution under some conditions) - I lack elements to go further on -
    for the B.B. question, it's still true that about roughly -3000 new conditions or mutations affected ONLY some people that appeared suddenly in western Europe and I believe these conditions or mutations took place elsewhere than in western Europe and so there have been an INTRUSION of new people, whatever the theory we profess -

    on a different axis, I newly red (1060's works) that the 'dinaroid' skulls of the Eneo-Chalcolithic in southern France (-2800?) was different enough from the (artificially deformed?) ancient 'armenoid' cranes AND THAT THE CLOSER ONES WAS THE BELL BEAKERS SKULLS OF GERMANY (Glockel Bäcker) and too not so far from the 'dinaroid' ones of Chypre - COON said that the 'dinaroid' part of the british BBs was close to the Rhineland BB too...

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    unsure if you have seen this below

    http://uni-kiel.academia.edu/CherylM...ite_in_Germany

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I 'm not able as you to go so deeply in details -
    the genetic proximity for Y-DNA of R1b-U152 to other occidental "young" R1b (L21, SY2627...), even to U106, put me to doubt about a 'dinaric' condition for U152 only and not for the others: given its geographical position I can figure out an 'alpine' phenotypic evolution (by paelo-mesolithical origin OR by absorbtion of previous people autosomals in the Alps - by origin or by admixture the problem stays the same: these regions are richer for 'alpine' types than for 'dinaric types' (the region rich for 'dinaric types' are the poorest for U152 in this half-western meta-region - even in Croatia, the 'alpine' type element is stronger in North, where 'dinaric' types AND Y-I2a1b, as by hazard, is weaker -
    I have the problem, if I try to link Y-HG and phenotype, that 'dinaric' types are found among rich I2a1b populations, BUT ALSO among some rich enough for Y-E1b (greco-balkanic HG) -
    if I accept that some 'dinaric' traits are genetically dominent, and sufficient to push some anthropologists to exagerate the true weight of 'dinaric' in populations, based on only some characteristic features of crane, so I can evacuate the E1b problem (thorn in my foot!) - I have to say that I do'nt find so high 'dinaric' element among Armenians (previously they deformed the skulls of their children, as other peoples of Anatolia) by a special cradle use) - maybe more among Kurds (and yet, their tribes are not so homogenous... maybe some Y-J2 (J is genetically not too far from I) had already AS Y-I a predisposition to turn into 'dinarics' under some unclear influence (theory2: 'dinaric' is not an homozygotic phenotype [theory 1] but a well determined crossing OR theory 3: its an unstable evolution under some conditions) - I lack elements to go further on -
    for the B.B. question, it's still true that about roughly -3000 new conditions or mutations affected ONLY some people that appeared suddenly in western Europe and I believe these conditions or mutations took place elsewhere than in western Europe and so there have been an INTRUSION of new people, whatever the theory we profess -

    on a different axis, I newly red (1060's works) that the 'dinaroid' skulls of the Eneo-Chalcolithic in southern France (-2800?) was different enough from the (artificially deformed?) ancient 'armenoid' cranes AND THAT THE CLOSER ONES WAS THE BELL BEAKERS SKULLS OF GERMANY (Glockel Bäcker) and too not so far from the 'dinaroid' ones of Chypre - COON said that the 'dinaroid' part of the british BBs was close to the Rhineland BB too...
    It is valid what you say. But still, since R1b+J is present in the near east, especially among Armenians with high diversity, it seems not to be so far-fetched to assume that some R1b lineages got attached to dinarid look already there. And I was not refering to ancient deformed skulls, but contemporary living armenians (see "armenoid" examples from Coon).
    So indeed, R1b might not have originally carried dinaric traits itself (as likely most other lineages didn't too), but it may have become a carrier line of dinaric looking peoples at some particular time in particular regions, e.g. Bell-Beaker arrival. In Armenia for instance, R1b lineages occur together with J lineages, though it is also possible that R1b was already in europe when it got attached to new arriving dinaric peoples. I really don't know. Regarding Balkans, it could indeed have been rather HG E or J instead of R1b which carried dinarid look from the near east. Your idea of Y-HG I being linked to dinaric can also be true, just for other particular regions like Balkan, (Kurdistan?).
    My point is that I don't really see a conflict in dinaric B.B. being of R1b lineage, as Armenia shows. Of course this is not an attempted proof, just an invalidation of the attempted disproof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christiaan View Post
    The package or the context is important, whether it belong to XY or XX no doubt, but sometimes I get the impression that some people really think that Y lineages alone dictate pottery styles. While ironical enough pottery is probably the most female biased artefact. So this alone should make clear that ethnicity identification based on pottery alone(and not the package) could lead to false interpretations. Of course it would be very interesting to know how one could become a Bell beaker person. For instance by owning BB's stuff, by birth, by marriage - and if so would the "new"woman adapt to the pottery style taught by her mother-in-law or would she stubbornly stick to the old one

    The observation that women made non-wheel pottery by the way is based on ethnographic research and the discovery of female fingerprints on prehistoric pottery.
    On the other hand, if the theory is true that the Bell-Beakers have introduced metallurgy and bronze weapons even to Denmark and Ireland, then the B.B. pottery was probably not that crucial despite of the pottery-based naming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    On the other hand, if the theory is true that the Bell-Beakers have introduced metallurgy and bronze weapons even to Denmark and Ireland, then the B.B. pottery was probably not that crucial despite of the pottery-based naming.
    hard to be sure but I agree with you: in Spain, some say that metallurgy precede BB in some places (surely not everywhere, and the Meseta BBs aren't the first BB settlement in Iberia - my religion is that BB had a deep origin in people who was metallurgists, it is not saying THEY was either the only metallurgists or the metallurgy initiators...
    and the kit of "genuine" BB was not limited to pottery, but comprised other artefacts too -

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