origin of tribal names

[how yes no 3]

from proto-indo-european dictionary


*sueb(h)o, *sued | own => free, own, independent

hence Swede and Suebi

*suerb | turn
*uend | turn

hence Serbs and Wends
note that Sorbs (small Slavic nation from East Germany) are also called Wends and Lusatians. they call themselves Serbja

also
*uend |beard


next
*uent | wind

hence Veneti

but isn't the key characteristic of wind to turn around, or to move around?


Scythians is known to be ethnonym and to mean nomads (Strabo)

"skitati" in serbo-croat (perhaps also in other Slavic languages) = to wander around, to live in nomad life style
this may indicate that Scythians in fact spoke proto-Slavic language


wonder around ( "wandelen" in Dutch) isn't that what wind does?


old Greek historians write about Thracians and in different time period about Scythians being most numerous people on Earth..
"skitati" in serbo-croat (perhaps also in other Slavic languages) = to wander around, to live in nomad life style
this may indicate that Scythians in fact spoke proto-Slavic language

among largest tribe of Thracians are Getae
"Sclavos sive Getas hoc enim nomine antiquitis appellati sunt" wrote Greek historian Simokkates in early 7th century AD, hence according to him Slavs are Getae = Thracians

we know that Thracians are satem PIE speakers like Slavs, Balts and Albanians today...

we know that Thracians is word written in Greek and that Etruscans who call themselves Rasena are in Greek writing Tyrsenoi... hence it is not difficult to imagine that Thracians in fact called themselves Rascians, which is alternative name of Serbs used in middle age - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia
but isn't that the same tribal name as Russians?

note that Bulgaria which fits best into Thrace besides Slavic haplogroups also have significant J2... I explain it with Procopius who identifies proto-Bulgarians as Cimmerrians... and Cimmerians are in my opinon Serians I talked about a lot relating them initially with I2a and later with J2 people...

etymology of tribal names Scythians, Veneti, Wends, Serbs. Thracians combined with the historic data above seems to suggest that east Europe was inhabited with proto-Slavs also in distant past.. afterall we know that arrival of Slavs from Asia minor in 6th century is modern myth as e.g. west Slavs have dominant clade of R1a that exist only in Europe and is oldest in Serbia

[zanipolo]

from proto-indo-european dictionary


*sueb(h)o, *sued |own| svoj => free, own, independent

hence Swede and Suebi

*suerb | turn
*uend | turn

hence Serbs and Wends
note that Sorbs (small Slavic nation from East Germany) are also called Wends and Lusatians. they call themselves Serbja

Scythians is known to be ethnonym and to mean nomads

"skitati" in serbo-croat (perhaps also in other Slavic languages) = to wander around, to live in nomad life style

you know the word wend was only created by jordanes around 600AD , so what where the people before this called?

[how yes no 3]

you know the word wend was only created by jordanes around 600AD , so what where the people before this called?

*uend is reconstructed word in PIE dictionary
it was not created around 600 AD

check
http://www.koeblergerhard.de/idgwbhin.html

[zanipolo]

*uend is reconstructed word in PIE dictionary
it was not created around 600 AD

check
http://www.koeblergerhard.de/idgwbhin.html

you mean from the uenicide culture.?.................then we know by mythology , the 4 linguistic, tribal and "genetic" groups where celtic, venetic, baltic and gallic IIRC

So wend would mean any of these?

EDIT - or
UINI, UENE, UENETI, UINU. These are not arbitrary words, but words that can be argued to a)have originated from the same original word, and b)evolved into modern words for peoples with boat-traditions such as "Finnic", "Inuit", "Khanti", "Venedi".
from Finnic historians, apparently the letter V was originally a U

[how yes no 3]

you mean from the uenicide culture.?.................then we know by mythology , the 4 linguistic, tribal and "genetic" groups where celtic, venetic, baltic and gallic IIRC

So wend would mean any of these?

EDIT - or
UINI, UENE, UENETI, UINU. These are not arbitrary words, but words that can be argued to a)have originated from the same original word, and b)evolved into modern words for peoples with boat-traditions such as "Finnic", "Inuit", "Khanti", "Venedi".
from Finnic historians, apparently the letter V was originally a U

I do not understand your arguments....
you list several fuzzy and unclear assumptions without any arguments backing up your statements...
try to explain it better, but without referring to modern (19th and 20th century) quasi historians with their biased nationalistic minds...
use original ancient sources if you can.....

I will say that besides Jordanes, also st.Columban states that Slavs are Veneti ("Veneti qui et Sclavi dicuntur")
those two claims are historical data from distant past...

on other hand all claims that Veneti are some other people are modern speculations of historians and quasi-historians...so those are not historical facts, but educated guesses, opinions....


in addition it is not clear why you try to explain names of people that do not speak indo-european such as Inuit, and Finnic with indo-european dictionary.....

apart from that this is clearly about different root words

1) *uend = turn
*uent = blowing
*uentos = wind

versus
2) *uen = strive, hit, wound

its comparable how "think" and "thin" are in english words that do not have same root...
in such a comparison, root words I use correspond to "think", your stuff corresponds to "thin"

[zanipolo]

I do not understand your arguments....
you list several fuzzy and unclear assumptions without any arguments backing up your statements...
try to explain it better, but without referring to modern (19th and 20th century) quasi historians with their biased nationalistic minds...
use original ancient sources if you can.....

I will say that besides Jordanes, also st.Columban states that Slavs are Veneti ("Veneti qui et Sclavi dicuntur")
those two claims are historical data from distant past...

on other hand all claims that Veneti are some other people are modern speculations of historians and quasi-historians...so those are not historical facts, but educated guesses, opinions....


in addition it is not clear why you try to explain names of people that do not speak indo-european such as Inuit, and Finnic with indo-european dictionary.....

apart from that this is clearly about different root words

1) *uend = turn
*uent = blowing
*uentos = wind

versus
2) *uen = strive, hit, wound

its comparable how "think" and "thin" are in english words that do not have same root...
in such a comparison, root words I use correspond to "think", your stuff corresponds to "thin"

you need to read lithuanian history as they are the Venedae ...they are baltic people. The venedi on the baltic where eliminated absorbed, vanished by 200Ad by the goths.
We have already proved this.
Windish people in latvia = balts
Read http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...istula&f=false
pages 410 to 416

in regards my arguements, these are the 4 peoples mentioned in the baltic in the middle bronze age, clearly some stand out for you to easily decipher.

In regards to word association , we have the gothic word Vinland meaning white lands..what does this associate with

[how yes no 3]

we know that Greek mythology is full of names that correspond to tribal names (Illyrus, Celtus, Gallas, Aegyptus...)

i would remind here on my old claim that proto-Slavic people are in that mythology represented as wind gods

wind = *uentos in PIE (*uent = blowing) (in first post I have wrongly said *uent = wind, but clearly root word is the same)

hence Veneti = wind people

Boreas - north wind
Eurus - east wind
Zephyrus - west wind with son Carpus

to me this maps to Prussians on north, Russians on east, Serbs and derived tribe Croats on west...


note that germanic *wenda/*wendaz is considered derived from *uentos

3 words in PIE vocabulary
*uend = turn
*uent = blowing
*uentos = wind
clearly have same root as wind is blowing and turning, moving around or wandering around ('skitati' in Slavic as nomads do and as according to Strabo Scythians name themselves in their own language Scythians = nomads)...

note also that Zephyrus is born in caves of Thrace and that his equivalent in Roman mythology is Favonius hence tribal name Pannonians in area that is now called Slavonia and which is I suggest the most west proto-Slavic settlement in early Roman times and closest to Roman empire - Pannonians being perhaps together with Scordisci/Serdi as the Danubian Slavs mentioned by Russian primary chronicle as living around Danube and being pushed north by expanding Roman empire... it is not known what language of Scordisci was (Celtic, Thracian and Illyrian are most common assumptions) but it is supposed by modern history that they were Celtic or Celticized, but same holds for many Pannonian and Illyrian tribes that are considered to have been celticized at some point in history..or perhaps just their elite was...or just their culture was influenced by Celtic people...

note that European only branch of R1a is most dominant in west slavs and is ancient old in Serbia... suggesting that west Slavs origin from area of Serbia..... back to tribal name ethymology...
Pelasgians = flatland or field people (ethnonym assumed to be related to words pelagos (sea) / plagos(flat) in Greek/Doric)
Poles (slavic "poljaci") = field people (Slavic polje = field)
Pannonians = settlers of Pannonian plane = field people

in PIE:
*pel - move - alike to "turn" and "wonder around" isn't it?
*pel - swamp
*pela- flat

[LeBrok]

from proto-indo-european dictionary


*sueb(h)o, *sued | own => free, own, independent

hence Swede and Suebi

*suerb | turn
*uend | turn

hence Serbs and Wends
note that Sorbs (small Slavic nation from East Germany) are also called Wends and Lusatians. they call themselves Serbja

also
*uend |beard


next
*uent | wind

hence Veneti

but isn't the key characteristic of wind to turn around, or to move around?


Scythians is known to be ethnonym and to mean nomads (Strabo)

"skitati" in serbo-croat (perhaps also in other Slavic languages) = to wander around, to live in nomad life style
this may indicate that Scythians in fact spoke proto-Slavic language


wonder around ( "wandelen" in Dutch) isn't that what wind does?


old Greek historians write about Thracians and in different time period about Scythians being most numerous people on Earth..
"skitati" in serbo-croat (perhaps also in other Slavic languages) = to wander around, to live in nomad life style
this may indicate that Scythians in fact spoke proto-Slavic language

Sorry How yes no, but you are dreaming. Your analogies reminds me the ones of Dublin.
Scythian was an Iranic language, with as much similarities to Slavic, as Latin or Celtic. Your connection to Slavic is through IE connection and not by protoslavic, as you implied it might have been an Iranian language.

Here is a nice compilation of Scythians, Sarmatians and Alans names:
http://sarmatianinthesca.blogspot.ca...nal-names.html

Surely, they were written in Greek and Latin, but as you can see they contain no slavic sounding names, not even close.

I think that Sarmatians were not Slavs but a ruling class that occupied slavic lands. They were the warriors/nomads/horsemen. In contrast Slavs were the working class, the farmers. Maybe not that noble and romantic, but the pillar of economy and strength.
After 1,000 years or so, of Sarmatian ruling, Sarmatians got slavinized, and just before slavic expansion all Sarmatians were speaking Slavic. This includes R1a and I2a main slavic groups.

According to linguistic experts Sarmatian names sound Iranic.

[how yes no 3]

Sorry How yes no, but you are dreaming. Your analogies reminds me the ones of Dublin.
Scythian was an Iranic language, with as much similarities to Slavic, as Latin or Celtic. Your connection to Slavic is through IE connection and not by protoslavic, as you implied it might have been an Iranian language.

Here is a nice compilation of Scythians, Sarmatians and Alans names:
http://sarmatianinthesca.blogspot.ca...nal-names.html

Surely, they were written in Greek and Latin, but as you can see they contain no slavic sounding names, not even close.

I think that Sarmatians were not Slavs but a ruling class that occupied slavic lands. They were the warriors/nomads/horsemen. In contrast Slavs were the working class, the farmers. Maybe not that noble and romantic, but the pillar of economy and strength.
After 1,000 years or so, of Sarmatian ruling, Sarmatians got slavinized, and just before slavic expansion all Sarmatians were speaking Slavic. This includes R1a and I2a main slavic groups.

According to linguistic experts Sarmatian names sound Iranic.

personal names alone do not prove much in fact....
now most of Europe including most of Slavic people carry derivatives of originally Jewish names due to Christianity and names of people in bible stories.... that doesnot make most of Europeans Jewish, does it?

my point is that name of Scythians is by strabo recorded as endonym and that he also records that its meaning is "nomad", and that only in slavic languages verb "skitati" = to wander around, live in nomad way..
in addition ancient DNA shows that Scythians were dominantly R1a1 people same as Slavs. I would say these facts taken together are good indication of origin, not necesserilly of identical language.

Scythians were not necesserilly proto-Slavic people, but I find it curious that we find tribal names derived from
*uend = turn
*suerb = turn
on both ends of R1a spread
in Sarbans and Indians on east
and Wends and Serbs on west

[how yes no 3]

Sorry How yes no, but you are dreaming. Your analogies reminds me the ones of Dublin.
Scythian was an Iranic language, with as much similarities to Slavic, as Latin or Celtic. Your connection to Slavic is through IE connection and not by protoslavic, as you implied it might have been an Iranian language.

Here is a nice compilation of Scythians, Sarmatians and Alans names:
http://sarmatianinthesca.blogspot.ca...nal-names.html

Surely, they were written in Greek and Latin, but as you can see they contain no slavic sounding names, not even close.

I think that Sarmatians were not Slavs but a ruling class that occupied slavic lands. They were the warriors/nomads/horsemen. In contrast Slavs were the working class, the farmers. Maybe not that noble and romantic, but the pillar of economy and strength.
After 1,000 years or so, of Sarmatian ruling, Sarmatians got slavinized, and just before slavic expansion all Sarmatians were speaking Slavic. This includes R1a and I2a main slavic groups.

According to linguistic experts Sarmatian names sound Iranic.

Scythians and Sarmatians didnot necesserily speak same language....
Greek mythology states that Sarmatians origin from group of Scythians intermarrying Amazone woman...
now language is determined by mothers especially when it comes to Amazones...

while for Sarmatian it is widely accepted to have been iranian, we do not really know almost anything about Scythian language....
one of the rare historical data about their words come from Herodotous

The Greek historian Herodotus provides another source of Scythian; he reports that the Scythians called the Amazons Oiorpata, and explains the name as a compound of oior, meaning "man", and pata, meaning "to kill" (Hist. 4,110).

(from wikipedia)

oior = man
pata = kill

but I don't think it was about man killers, but about soldier killers

in serbian and i guess similar in other Slavic languages

bojar = medieval free man who serves as warrior - warrior class (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar )
derived from boj = battle
modern derivations are: vojnik= soldier and vojvoda = commander rank (derived from "boj"(battle) + "voditi" (to lead)

potući = to devastate in battle
potamaniti = to exterminate
potopiti = to drawn, to send boat to bottom of the sea
potpaliti = to set to fire
patosirati = to kick someone so hard that he falls on ground (e.g. in boxing)

[zanipolo]

Scythians and Sarmatians didnot necesserily speak same language....
Greek mythology states that Sarmatians origin from group of Scythians intermarrying Amazone woman...
now language is determined by mothers especially when it comes to Amazones...

while for Sarmatian it is widely accepted to have been iranian, we do not really now almost anything about Scythian language....
one of the rare historical data about their words come from Herodotous


(from wikipedia)

oior = man
pata = kill

but I don't think it was about man killers, but about soldier killers

in serbian and i guess similar in other Slavic languages

bojar = medieval free man who serves as warrior (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar )
derived from boj = battle
modern derivations are: vojnik= soldier and vojvoda = commander rank (derived from "boj"(battle) + "voditi" (to lead)

potući = to devastate in battle
potamaniti = to exterminate
potopiti = to drawn, to send boat to bottom of the sea
potpaliti = to set to fire
patosirati = to kick someone so hard that he falls on ground (e.g. in box)

all languages are from mothers, its called lengoa materna ( mother tongue) because fathers did not "hung around" with families in ancient societies. Paternal language only arosed due to nationality, when the state would direct/teach you on what language you could speak

[LeBrok]

Scythians and Sarmatians didnot necesserily speak same language....
Greek mythology states that Sarmatians origin from group of Scythians intermarrying Amazone woman...
now language is determined by mothers especially when it comes to Amazones...

while for Sarmatian it is widely accepted to have been iranian, we do not really know almost anything about Scythian language....
one of the rare historical data about their words come from Herodotous


(from wikipedia)

oior = man
pata = kill

but I don't think it was about man killers, but about soldier killers

in serbian and i guess similar in other Slavic languages

bojar = medieval free man who serves as warrior - warrior class (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar )
derived from boj = battle
modern derivations are: vojnik= soldier and vojvoda = commander rank (derived from "boj"(battle) + "voditi" (to lead)

potući = to devastate in battle
potamaniti = to exterminate
potopiti = to drawn, to send boat to bottom of the sea
potpaliti = to set to fire
patosirati = to kick someone so hard that he falls on ground (e.g. in boxing)

The point was that the Scathian, Sarmatian and Alan names didn't resemble anything slavic. We should have something like Mirko, Boleslav, Bolek, Voy, Slav, Vladimir, Vlad, Premko, Leshek, Vit, Siemovit, Domacaj, Semibor, Semimir, Radoslav, Budzimir, Lubomir
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%99...owia%C5%84skie

potući = to devastate in battle
potamaniti = to exterminate
potopiti = to drawn, to send boat to bottom of the sea
potpaliti = to set to fire

In all of these po or pot are prepositions, the rest is the root. It denotes done function. What's left is tamaniti, topiti, paliti. Not sure of pato in patosirati.
Most likely "pata" is the root in Scythian.

Not convincing, you have to refresh your Serbian. :)

[how yes no 3]

The point was that the Scathian, Sarmatian and Alan names didn't resemble anything slavic. We should have something like Mirko, Boleslav, Bolek, Voy, Slav, Vladimir, Vlad, Premko, Leshek, Vit, Siemovit, Domacaj, Semibor, Semimir, Radoslav, Budzimir, Lubomir
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Męskie..._słowiańskie

out of 17 names you mention as typical slavic, in Serbian only Mirko, Vladimir, Radoslav, Budimir and Ljubomir exist.....

and split was not nearly so long as times of Scythians
link you give is to names of Sarmatians and I have explained that Scythians and Sarmatians are likely to have spoken different languages.. with Sarmatian considered iranic....

anyway on the link with Sarmatian personal names that you have provided I can match some names
Tamura ->Tamara
Abazion -> Boža
Adarkos -> Darko
Andranakos'->Andra
Banas ->Bane
Borakos -> Borko
Bidakes->Buda
Erakas->Era
Perakos-> Pera

In all of these po or pot are prepositions, the rest is the root. It denotes done function. What's left is tamaniti, topiti, paliti. Not sure of pato in patosirati.
Most likely "pata" is the root in Scythian.

Not convincing, you have to refresh your Serbian. :)

guess you are right... :)
patosirati comes from patos = floor ...that was worst example actually..it is slang....

howver, in "potopiti" "po" is not proposition as "topiti" means to melt...and "opiti" to get drunk
it is related to word "potop" which is a giant flood..kind of end of world flood.... "poplava" is flood
"potop"is massive killing extinction event... by water

knowing that in PIE water is also *ap and *uop
I think it makes sense that potop = pot + op = killing +water
"pot" would be here used to describe a kind of water with key property that it kills....
its not killing as noun but killing as adjective
which is exactly what we have in description of Amazones -type of woman that is described as man/warrior killing

[zanipolo]

look at this link, a lot of R1a1 but none are "slavic"
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...7.00429.x/full

slavic is only a linguistic term that you are trying to "enforce" on other races.

Polish and russian historians clearly state that the true slavs can only be found in poland and ukraine.

[how yes no 3]

look at this link, a lot of R1a1 but none are "slavic"
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...7.00429.x/full

slavic is only a linguistic term that you trying to "enforce" on other races.

Polish and russian historians clearly state that the true slavs can only be found in poland and ukraine.

at 1AD proto-Baltic and proto-Slavic people most likely speak virtually the same language...

it is possible that Venedae was tribal name used for those of PIE speaking R1a people living on borders to other people... and being mixed with those other people

*uend = turn
*suerb = turn

on east this border of proto-Scythian are Indians and later in border areas of historic Scythians we now find Sarbans

on west we have Serbs and Wends (also called Sorbs) with Serbs having genetics mixed with originally Germanic genetic markers from haplogroup I

on north we have Balts who were also called Venedae..they are border to other people (Finnish) and mixed with them (large haplogroup N)

but those are ends or borders of spread of originally the same people
in time of 1 AD only difference between proto-Balts and proto-Slavs is that proto-Balts live mixed with Finish N haplogroup people and on border with them... language spoken is Balto-Slavic...

to compare, today a name used in Slavic countries for such purpose is Krajina (kraj = end)
so west of Russia is Ukraine
and area of Serbs who lived in Croatia and rebel in 90s was called Krajina

earlier a designation white (west in iranic colour system) was used....
hence white Serbs and white Croats, and even today white Russians (white = belo => Belarus)

and side note, word "wend" might still exist in english it is (w)end which is virtually same designation as "Krajina" (end land/border land)

as for modern historians, well if you want to know the truth read only ancient sources...
modern historians are typically biased....they want to prove what they already "know" (wish)...
so they make zillion quasi arguments that support their views...

[zanipolo]

at 1AD proto-Baltic and proto-Slavic people most likely speak virtually the same language...

This does not make the baltic people slavic

it is possible that Venedae was tribal name used for those of PIE speaking R1a people living on borders to other people... and being mixed with those other people

*uend = turn
*suerb = turn

on east this border of proto-Scythian are Indians and later in border areas of historic Scythians we now find Sarbans

venedae are baltic people who's southern border was with the Scythians, the Scythians who later got absorbed by the iranic sarmatians. Slavic historians say the Scythian created the true genetic slavs

on west we have Serbs and Wends with Serbs having genetics mixed with originally Germanic genetic markers from haplogroup I

on north we have Balts who were also called Venedae

but those are ends or borders of spread of originally the same people
in time of 1 AD only difference between proto-Balts and proto-Slavs is that proto-Balts live mixed with Finish N haplogroup people and on border with them... language spoken is Balto-Slavic...

to compare, today a name used in Slavic countries for such purpose is Krajina (kraj = end)
so west of Russia is Ukraine
and area of Serbs who lived in Croatia and rebel in 90s was called Krajina

earlier a designation white (west in iranic colour system) was used....
hence white Serbs and white Croats, and even today white Russians (white = belo => Belarus)

Its the same as the Romans incorporated all these races and taught them latin and they went to all of europe.........are they all Romans that is Latins ..........is this a wrong way of thinking?

[how yes no 3]

This does not make the baltic people slavic

I do not say Slavic = Baltic... those are modern languages...
I say that Slavic and Baltic languages are evolution from same language that is in modern linguistics called Balto-Slavic

in fact, Baltic languages are closer to that reconstructed Balto-Slavic language
perhaps due to large influence of e.g. Germanic and Sarmatian in recent development of Slavic languages...

venedae are baltic people who's southern border was with the Scythians, the Scythians who later got absorbed by the iranic sarmatians. Slavic historians say the Scythian created the true genetic slavs

originally they were same people
i say that *uend and *suerb was just used as a name for border lands of R1a people....

note also term Siberia on east most end.....

Its the same as the Romans incorporated all these races and taught them latin and they went to all of europe.........are they all Romans that is Latins ..........is this a wrong way of thinking?

its not the same because Baltic languages are closer to Balto-Slavic than Slavic languages...
it means that Balto-Slavic stayed more or less preserved in Baltic countries while it was somewhat modified in Slavic people due to influence of other languages, perhaps Germanic and Sarmatian....

well, if you do not trust me ask linguists...

essentially this additional influence that made Slavic was likely carried by I2a-din people...as Balts do not have i2a-din and other people derived from Balto-Slavic people do...

[zanipolo]

I do not say Slavic = Baltic... those are modern languages...
I say that Slavic and Baltic languages are evolution from same language that is in modern linguistics called Balto-Slavic

in fact, Baltic languages are closer to that reconstructed Balto-Slavic language
perhaps due to large influence of e.g. Germanic and Sarmatian in recent development of Slavic languages...


originally they were same people
i say that *uend and *suerb was just used as a name for border lands of R1a people....

note also term Siberia on east most end.....



its not the same because Baltic languages are closer to Balto-Slavic than Slavic languages...
it means that Balto-Slavic stayed more or less preserved in Baltic countries while it was somewhat modified in Slavic people due to influence of other languages, perhaps Germanic and Sarmatian....

well, if you do not trust me ask linguists...

essentially this additional influence that made Slavic was likely carried by I2a-din people...as Balts do not have i2a-din and other people derived from Balto-Slavic people do...

since baltic people where there centuries before the slavic...call yourself baltic then

[LeBrok]

I'm pretty sure "topit" is the root in verb. Topiti, should be the action of drowning, either self of someone. Potopiti, means that action was done, as with "potop" ( po-top, with "po" meaning "after" in slavic), or emphasizes the meaning of action. Of course there are other derivatives of the same root, but it's just the complication of live language.

Slavic names: I'm not sure if you got all of them right, but surely from the list of hundreds of Scythian names, there will be few coincidental. Also few slavic will show up too, as we know slavs where "citizens" of Scythia and Sarmatia (depending on time period). What I meant, generally speaking, is that majority of names are not Slavic. It means that in their origin and heritage Scythians or Sarmatians were not Slavs.

My conclusion was that, to explain persistence and uniformity of slavic language over vast territory, slavic needed to be a universal language of all the tribes that took part in slavic expansion. The territory that they conquered was vast, from Baltic Sea to the Mediterranean, from central europe to Ural Mountains (almost), that's half of the Europe. And they came from unknown place, and nobody heard of them before. That's like a miracle, lol.
Following this thought, I started leaning into direction of known political entity, to be a starting point, and fairly big one. Having a clue where the (topological) homeland of slavs could be, and some clues from history and legends, the homeland landed in area known as Sarmatia. Some other historical facts and Sarmatians names, lead me to conclusion, that Sarmatians where the ruling class only, over the Slavs. So at the end Sarmatians needed to be slavinized in order to achieve the cultural and linguistic unity of all Slavs before spreading around.

So even though we find only few Slavic names on list of Sarmatian names, even at the 4th century of CE, they were already Slavs. The most of the names are of royal families anyway. So even if they were Slavinized, they still used traditional royal Sarmatian names. You know, it's the tradition after all, and tradition is always strong and conservative.

[how yes no 3]

I'm pretty sure "topit" is the root in verb. Topiti, should be the action of drowning, either self of someone. Potopiti, means that action was done, as with "potop" ( po-top, with "po" meaning "after" in slavic), or emphasizes the meaning of action. Of course there are other derivatives of the same root, but it's just the complication of live language.

not quite, but you are right that 'pot' is not related to 'pat' of Scythians

topiti = to melt
utopiti = action of drawning is done
potopiti = to push under water
potop = extinction level flood

so, i think pot/pod is abbreviated form of "ispod" (under)
op is from PIE *uop, *ap for water
so "potop" = under water
"potopiti" = to put under water

Slavic names: I'm not sure if you got all of them right, but surely from the list of hundreds of Scythian names, there will be few coincidental. Also few slavic will show up too, as we know slavs where "citizens" of Scythia and Sarmatia (depending on time period). What I meant, generally speaking, is that majority of names are not Slavic. It means that in their origin and heritage Scythians or Sarmatians were not Slavs.

those were Sarmatian names not Schytian... the two are not the same.... their languages and personal names were very likely different....

My conclusion was that, to explain persistence and uniformity of slavic language over vast territory, slavic needed to be a universal language of all the tribes that took part in slavic expansion. The territory that they conquered was vast, from Baltic Sea to the Mediterranean, from central europe to Ural Mountains (almost), that's half of the Europe. And they came from unknown place, and nobody heard of them before. That's like a miracle, lol.
Following this thought, I started leaning into direction of known political entity, to be a starting point, and fairly big one. Having a clue where the (topological) homeland of slavs could be, and some clues from history and legends, the homeland landed in area known as Sarmatia. Some other historical facts and Sarmatians names, lead me to conclusion, that Sarmatians where the ruling class only, over the Slavs. So at the end Sarmatians needed to be slavinized in order to achieve the cultural and linguistic unity of all Slavs before spreading around.

yes, i agree with that...
but what people were that substratum living in European Sarmatia?

i guess Scythians, Venedae, Thracians, Dacians..... and minor tribes like Basternae, Carpi, some Celtic tribes...

[LeBrok]

not quite, but you are right that 'pot' is not related to 'pat' of Scythians




yes, i agree with that...
but what people were that substratum living in European Sarmatia?

i guess Scythians, Venedae, Thracians, Dacians..... and minor tribes like Basternae, Carpi, some Celtic tribes...

Not sure who was exactly in substratum except Slavs (I2a and R1a) and possibly some Sarmatians. The rest of them got slavonized quickly right after expansion. The reason might have been the huge depopulation of Central Europe just before expansion. Plus possibly Slavs fighting beside Huns (Atilla) and then Alans and Avars, and slowly started spreading hundred years earlier?
After the expansion the old tribes were totaly gone, except Greeks (not very good agricultural land, which was important for farmer slavs), Albanians and some mountain herders like many Vlachs (again not attractive terrain for Slavs), Vlachs in Romania (don't know why?, some mountains and possibly due to frequent migratory route to panonia valley), and Panonia/Hungary (though perfec agricultural land, it was also a perfect spot for any hunic and turkic/nomadic tribes that till 10 century kept lending there all the time.
It still eludes me why Slavs remained strongly segregated I2a and R1a but managed linguistic and cultural unity? If I didn't know about diversity center of I2a Dinaric in Sarmatia, I would claim that I2a was always in Balkans, and only R1a would be originally slavic. That would simplify things.
Is there a good I2a Dinaric map, or even better South Dinaric?

[Yetos]

Not sure who was exactly in substratum except Slavs (I2a and R1a) and possibly some Sarmatians. The rest of them got slavonized quickly right after expansion. The reason might have been the huge depopulation of Central Europe just before expansion. Plus possibly Slavs fighting beside Huns (Atilla) and then Alans and Avars, and slowly started spreading hundred years earlier?
After the expansion the old tribes were totaly gone, except Greeks (not very good agricultural land, which was important for farmer slavs), Albanians and some mountain herders like many Vlachs (again not attractive terrain for Slavs), Vlachs in Romania (don't know why?, some mountains and possibly due to frequent migratory route to panonia valley), and Panonia/Hungary (though perfec agricultural land, it was also a perfect spot for any hunic and turkic/nomadic tribes that till 10 century kept lending there all the time.
It still eludes me why Slavs remained strongly segregated I2a and R1a but managed linguistic and cultural unity? If I didn't know about diversity center of I2a Dinaric in Sarmatia, I would claim that I2a was always in Balkans, and only R1a would be originally slavic. That would simplify things.
Is there a good I2a Dinaric map, or even better South Dinaric?

Who said that Slavs did not enter Greece,
they manage even to settle in Peloponese as few toponymes show,
simply they did not manage to conquer Greece,
Dusan Serbia Cymeon Bulgaria are know that they enter Greece and hold areas for few decades,
Simply Greeks resist more than in other parts of balkans, and since they had alphabet they did not get Slavic culture,
after centuries of battles wars and peace treatment there was a zone of mixed population around today borders
(example the Florina-Lerin and Bitola-Monasterion) that starts from upper Makedonia until Black Sea shores (agathoupolis-ahtopol etc)

now about Romania has Slavic marker, I2 if -Din is Slavic, but kept Romano-Latin, although Severi pass through her lands, it seems that Moesian Vlachs as also some byzantine ports and cities show resist (like Akkerman castle story).
remember Greek revolt did not start at today Greece but in Romanian city Ias

PS Interesting case is Crimea which even today is not considered as pure Slavic land although in heart of Slavic lands,

[Yetos]

Seven notices that the author of the tread must check

1)
Sarmatians speak Scythian language, but did not learn it well (Herodotus)

guess the paramaters that gives,

2) Scythian names, like Skillerus can be Germanic Shiller?
etc Roman Thracian names
like Clavdius
Greek Κλαυδιος (υ Not v)
Germ Claudia (u not v)
could it be in Slavic languages Slav ?
Greek Ρωμανου Romanu
Romanian Romanu
Slavic Romanov ( u becomes v)
Notice ceasar-> car = tsar


3) if Σκωλοτοι name that Herodotus use are the scythians could it be the later Sclavini?

4) modern Germanic are the Hannover western forms of German
could Germanic Baltic Slavic and Albanian origin from a common language?
their grammar and vocabulary show that they had similar past and process, comparing the Greek Sanshqrit etc

5) If Sarmatians were an elite and Slavs existed at the time of Herodotus would herodotus just mention them? at least a small history about them?

6) many Uralic Turkic people enter Moravia before the known Great Moravia, why the genetical data did not change?
could the same happened with Slavic population at the 'traditional' Historical stories?

7) if Slavic are R1a (z496 I think) why in Greece R1a exists in high mountainous areas and not in Valleys since Slavs took all the best fields?

[how yes no 3]

[QUOTE=Yetos;395806]Seven notices that the author of the tread must check

1)
Sarmatians speak Scythian language, but did not learn it well (Herodotus)

guess the paramaters that gives,

it means their language is mostly the one from mother tribe - Amazones... and that may have been iranic related..

2) Scythian names, like Skillerus can be Germanic Shiller?
etc Roman Thracian names
like Clavdius
Greek Κλαυδιος (υ Not v)
Germ Claudia (u not v)
could it be in Slavic languages Slav ?
Greek Ρωμανου Romanu
Romanian Romanu
Slavic Romanov ( u becomes v)
Notice ceasar-> car = tsar

maybe Scythians were PIE speaking people...
and were later absorbed by Slavs

3) if Σκωλοτοι name that Herodotus use are the scythians could it be the later Sclavini?

maybe

4) modern Germanic are the Hannover western forms of German
could Germanic Baltic Slavic and Albanian origin from a common language?
their grammar and vocabulary show that they had similar past and process, comparing the Greek Sanshqrit etc

5) If Sarmatians were an elite and Slavs existed at the time of Herodotus would herodotus just mention them? at least a small history about them?

maybe under other names,,,

6) many Uralic Turkic people enter Moravia before the known Great Moravia, why the genetical data did not change?
could the same happened with Slavic population at the 'traditional' Historical stories?

those Turkic may have been R1a as well
alternatively, they didnot leave much offshot...
it is not rare to see in Czech or Slovakia somewhat slanted eyes...

7) if Slavic are R1a (z496 I think) why in Greece R1a exists in high mountainous areas and not in Valleys since Slavs took all the best fields?

not all R1a is Slavic,,,,
and south Slavic may have been dominantly I2a-din


*suerb = border people is close to your earlier assumptions that it means just warriors
i remember reading (do not know source) that in Russia serb meant soldier....

interesting with this respect is different meaning of word bojar in slavic countries...
in Serbia it is warrior class... in other Slavs it is wealthy person....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojar

root word is boj = battle

border people are warriors in war and merchants in peace....in peace they are bridge between different cultures... merchants are wealthy people...

hence Sart in Asia as name for merchants...


*suerb = turn and *uend = turn
can also indicate not just place where to turn (border, (u)end) but also people who are bilingual and of mixed origin and change language when usage of other language is more adventageous...naturally bilingual border people can "turn" to one side, to one of languages and cultures when that becomes adventageous...

hence Siraces (considered by some to origin from Caucasian Serboi) on Black sea as most hellenized of Sarmatians,...they were known as merchants....

hence many Wends(Sorbs) easily becomming Germans in east Germany...(Leibniz is most notable example of German with Sorbian roots)

I can imagine Scordisci being both Celtic and proto-Slavic speakers.... when pushed by Roman empire, they resist for a while and than move to north, to area from Bohemia where they go as Celtic to area of Caarpathians where they go as Slavic...part of them that stays in Serbia is absorbed by roman empire, hence romanized (and giving Vlachs) and in Srem are they fall under Sarmatian Iazyges (two classes exist in their society - lower class called "serfs")
when Celtic language lose its advantage due to Gauls being romanized, they drop Celtic language and become Slavic only....I would note here that west parts of Bohemia where we find toponyms related to Serbs also has increased I2a-din (3 times compared to the rest of Czech republic),,, DAI (De administrando Imperio) places white Serbia in land Boiki which can be mapped only to Bohemia....it states it is also where they originally come from... which makes sense as origin place of I2a-din


there is one big difference between contemporary Serbs and Croats - Serbs easily adapt international words, Croats defend their language by inventing own words for new technological terms.....

Croats do not really fit in oriignally Balkan people...they are too white for Mediterranean people... I would rather relate proto-Croats to Carpii or Sarmatians originally and to R1a (and I2a-din north ) and leave possibility that I2a-Din south (along with I2a din - north) was in Balkan as Illyrians and Scordisci...Nordvedt estimates of age of haplogroups are way too strict...they are never adapted by official science... according to official method age of I2a-Din in Serbia is 9000 year old... ("High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia"-Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera) ..Scordisci also explain why i2a-din south is rare in east Europe east of Danube, but appears in line from Balkan to Denmark...in Slovakia I2a-din is much larger in Vlach settlers from Romania than in native Slovak people...if you look at Carpi on euratlas maps it is notable that they move to west from Black sea to Carpathians, even before Huns enter from east...with arrival of Huns they are likely to go more to west and into Carpatians....hence white (west) Croatia in west Carpatians, more precisely in south Poland and Slovakia....both Serbs and Croats from white Serbia and white Croatia are in DAI said to have been called white there, which I explained with misunderstanding of *uend (border people) with Celtic word *windo = white and by white (west) designation in name of their countries...

Scordisci and Carpi can both fit into Danubian Slavs from Russian primary chronicle that move to north when being pushed by expanding Roman empire..Russian primary chronicle explicitly mention Serbs, Croats and Carantines among those Danubian Slavs,,,,, Carantines could origin from slavicized Carni...

note also that mediating between different cultures and being bilingual could have been a way for I2a people to survive arrival of new people in Europe...

in that respect curious is also that Serbs are only nation that uses both cirillyc and latin alphabets....

[MOESAN]

[QUOTE=Yetos;395806]Seven notices that the author of the tread must check

YETOS: 4) modern Germanic are the Hannover western forms of German
could Germanic Baltic Slavic and Albanian origin from a common language?
their grammar and vocabulary show that they had similar past and process, comparing the Greek Sanshqrit etc

it is without big importance for this thread but let's note that 'deutsche' official language of today is not from a Hannover dialect - it 's an articial making of the XVI° century (after the printing invention) attempting to unify the regional "chancelleries" super-dialectal scriptae, and is based on the middle-late high germanic (= south), with some mixture of middle (geography) german dialects: the result is an heterogneous and phonetically illogical enough language, when compared to german dialects -
the only tight link of german language to baltic, slavic and other satem language (in the sense of common origin opposed to contacts or loans) is as all the I-Ean languages, the original I-Ean -
If I believe my last readings, old contacts OR INFLUENCES between germanic and balto-slavic languages seam attested (maybe before complete satemisation, but same contacts seam attested too with germanic and old italic or proto-italic languages) - albanian language would have been very close to balto-slavic languages in a first stage as the illyrian, thracian, dardanian & etc... (West satem) ones - what would be interesting is knowing where and when exactly these contacts OR CONTACTS WITH AN ARCHAIC PROTO SATEM LANGUAGE took place: we could imagine the "Corded" period, or before? (the italic contacts appears being older to scholars)