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Thread: Where did R1b L51 originate?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Where did R1b L51 originate?

    L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003.jpg
    This map shows high frequencies of this subclade in Southern/Central France as well as in Northern Italy.
    R1b L51 seems absent from the Balkans and eastern Europe in general (except southern Poland).


    Also, it is worth mentioning that R1b P312 main subclades(U152, M167,L21) have their highest variance in France.

    So it looks like L51 formed in southern France (and not in eastern Europe) during the late Neolithic (Chasséen?) out of R1b L23 people who had arrived from Italy.


    Richard Rocca explains it very well in this thread:
    http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/i...?topic=10579.0

    EDIT: the point is that L51 and its successor L11 spread out of Western Europe to central Europe and not the other way round which makes them unrelated to the Bronze age central European cultures (Unetice, Urnfields etc..).
    Last edited by spongetaro; 06-06-12 at 23:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003.jpg
    This map shows high frequencies of this subclade in Southern/Central France as well as in Northern Italy.
    R1b L51 seems absent from the Balkans and eastern Europe in general (except southern Poland). ...
    It is quite possible that R1b-L51 (predecessor to R1b-L11 and then P312 and U106) spread out SE France.

    I would be cautious in concluding that L51 originated in France, though.

    We have a very light scattering of L51* haplotypes and I don't think there are enough to do any kind of decent STR diversity analysis.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    It is quite possible that R1b-L51 (predecessor to R1b-L11 and then P312 and U106) spread out SE France.

    I would be cautious in concluding that L51 originated in France, though.

    We have a very light scattering of L51* haplotypes and I don't think there are enough to do any kind of decent STR diversity analysis.
    I agree with you but we can at least suppose that R1b L51 never made a big journey in east/central Europe and is the first "western" subclade of R1b which push earlier the date of R1b arrival in western Europe.
    With this and the recent find of R1b among Bell Beakers, a bronze age arrival seems more and more unlikely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003.jpg
    This map shows high frequencies of this subclade in Southern/Central France as well as in Northern Italy.
    R1b L51 seems absent from the Balkans and eastern Europe in general (except southern Poland).


    Also, it is worth mentioning that R1b P312 main subclades(U152, M167,L21) have their highest variance in France.

    So it looks like L51 formed in southern France (and not in eastern Europe) during the late Neolithic (Chasséen?) out of R1b L23 people who had arrived from Italy.




    Richard Rocca explains it very well in this thread:
    http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/i...?topic=10579.0
    R1b1b2a1 L51 or does R.Rocca state Umbria and tuscany in Central Italy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    R1b1b2a1 L51 or does R.Rocca state Umbria and tuscany in Central Italy?
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    OK that could do it
    but the distribution is very spred - I don't have too confidence in low frequency old upstream HGs, they look as "archaïc words" in a dialectal map : very often it 's said the distribution of low %s old upstream HGs shows their origin place or the origin path they passed by to reach other regions richer of high %s younger downstream HGs - this scattered distribution of some honorable hotspots could be the result of a scarce population in some places maintained during sometime not giving way to new mutations of SNPs - the only serious place of demographic brutal grow seams to be between central France and the Alps - the "son" R-L11 has not completely the same distribution, by instance... - the surely rare R-L23 that gave birth to P-310=L51 could be arrived early in central-western Europe by North (South Baltic?) as by South (Donau, Mediterranea) - for me it is still hard to decide...

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
    I am saying that in the past year along with other members, he claim originally that it was ligurs/ligurian ( which where also in southern france in the ancient times), but lately he claimed central Italy due to data from umbria and tuscany.

    WoF has many articles a lot on this y dna, but I favour the ligurian scenario because tribal similarities in the ancient times and that the southern french regional languages and the Northern Italian regional languages shared a common "paternal" language of ancient times which became provencal or some call it franco-provencal. basically a celtic-italic mix ( pre roman)..........this is my theory.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Actually one of the few true L51* samples we have is from Croatia, so I don't know where "absent from the Balkans" is coming from. We also have samples from the thinly-sampled countries of Turkey and Yemen. Combined with its presence in Poland and Hungary (which seems to be missing from the map as well), I think that there's a good case for an Eastern European or even Near Eastern origin for the L51 marker itself. That said, its expansion on Western Europe is notable, and understanding it is vital for understanding the origin of L11, which I've become increasingly convinced is European in origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Actually one of the few true L51* samples we have is from Croatia, so I don't know where "absent from the Balkans" is coming from. We also have samples from the thinly-sampled countries of Turkey and Yemen. Combined with its presence in Poland and Hungary (which seems to be missing from the map as well), I think that there's a good case for an Eastern European or even Near Eastern origin for the L51 marker itself. That said, its expansion on Western Europe is notable, and understanding it is vital for understanding the origin of L11, which I've become increasingly convinced is European in origin.
    THANKS, VERY GOOD INFORMATIONS FOR ME
    sometimes I think I rush to quickly on interpretations on the basis of poor data (not our fault) -
    the presence of old or intermediary upstream HGs is of importance when confirmed - what I find interesting is the "blooming" of sudden downstream HGs in countries far form the wells: it proves surely some "baby boom" of interest for History: the difficulty is the timing of these events to can link them to cultures and archeology - but the rarefaction of a family of SNPs can explain some oddities: invasions by tribes of other HGs can produce it sometimes, not?
    the position of central Europe is conflicting: some %s can be due to return from West as well as to a rest place on the way?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Also, it is worth mentioning that R1b P312 main subclades(U152, M167,L21) have their highest variance in France.
    It is worth mentioning that M167 isn't a "main subclade" of P312, on the level of L21 and U152. That distinction currently goes to DF27, parent of Z196 (and of several of its less prolific brothers, one being the Scandinavian L238). Z196 has two large branches, Z209/Z220 (the North/South cluster, distribution of which is pretty continuous from Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic, the North Sea, and the British Isles -- as well as present France and Iberia) and L176.2 -- of which M167 is a part, but not the only part; another part, L165, seems also to be primarily Scandinavian.

    Some of this phylogeny has been filled in quite recently, but the SNPs in question are not new; only their identification and proper placement on the tree is new, and continuing to unfold. The point is that life did not begin for M167 when it arrived at, or evolved in, what is now called France; and nor was it one of the three main clades of P312 by that time. M167 has a considerable ancestry between itself and M51, the nominal topic of this thread -- and much of that ancestry lies far to the east.

    If Mikewww is still watching this thread, he has a couple of new slides that illustrate the phylogeny under P312 very well. They deserve a wider audience.

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    Thanks, Razyn - good information and not without weight!

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    L51* must have made the same journey like all other descendants of L51 .. up the Danube till north of the Alps and spreading further from there on

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    Hi , I am a bit confused with all those changes in classification , I have done dna test with 23andme ,
    the first result was R1b1b2a1a (= R-U106 ? ) then they put me into R-M412 ( L-51) and today it is simply R-L51 ,
    can somebody explain all this ?

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    Thank you very much !

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    If Mikewww is still watching this thread, he has a couple of new slides that illustrate the phylogeny under P312 very well. They deserve a wider audience.[/QUOTE]

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    I think I saw L51 in Slovakia too (two surveys in the game I think: Busby and Myres with different conclusions); I would like to know if the %ages here are absolute or relative to total R1b? relative %ages are of great interest, because R1b is so heavy in West!

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    Outside Western Europe (with N-Italy: 2,30%) Myres (?) had: (absolute % I think): Slovakia 0,70% - Poland 0,50% - Kreta 0,50% - Hungary 0,90% - Russia North 0,40% - Turkey 0,20% - Iran 0,70 % - I see to me proportionally someones of East Europe had greater % relative to total R1B - to be checked

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    to try to figure out how a subclade came in a place it's of great interest to see it %s compared to upstream SNP's and downstream SNP's; a SNP stage isolated in a pop very strongly ressembles an intrusive one, not one in place on an ancient trail - when its "tail" (downstream) is very important compared to its upstram SNP's it could be said the beginning of a founder event - the contrary plaids for a dead end (very often then the absolute percentage of the haplo is weak or weak enough there - the today pops percentages cannot have not the worth of ancient DNA but the today distribution of R1b SNP's (in center: L23, L51, L11) rather shows a track through East Central Europe, along the Danube river and North of it; the historical " births boom" could have been taken place around Switzerland, SW Germany and Eastern France; I don't exclude a southern way near the Mediterranea sea directly to S-Italy and Eastern Spain, without any proof because a passage across N-Italy from the Central or Western Danube or across S-France is still very possible and simpler...
    I think/bet the most of the Y-R1b-L23 ancestors crossed the Southern Steppes from East (North the Caspian) and the breaking off of L51 and Z2103 took place around Ukraine - other R1b pre L23 took the southern road to Near-East and created other downstream SNPs without link to the most of the Europe ones -
    I still believe (without certainty) the Armenia R1b pool is not the "father" of the Western Steppes R1b-L23, maybe the "son"? - in the doubt, Kura-Araxes a well defined Y-haplo's would be an important clue -
    without guarantee of the government!

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    I lack sufficient current samples of R1b in some countries but it seems the Croatian pool is a new one rather than an ancestral one: coming back Eastwards of some Celts/Italics there? at first sight (but insufficient data) it's very different from the S-E Europe R1b pool in quality.

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