j2b1 m205 and ancient tribes

[lugdunum]

Hello,

J2b1 m205 seems to be very present in the Balkans, more particularly in Albania, in the northeastern of Greece, but in south Italy, Spain and France too ( and not exclusively in the south of the country) according the data of FTDNA. Can this haplogroup be associated with an antic tribe?

[MOESAN]

Hello,

J2b1 m205 seems to be very present in the Balkans, more particularly in Albania, in the northeastern of Greece, but in south Italy, Spain and France too ( and not exclusively in the south of the country) according the data of FTDNA. Can this haplogroup be associated with an antic tribe?

I don't know if that can help, but I stick here a digest I found about Y-J2a & J2b - perhaps there are more recent works on the market now but who knows? problems of naming too? letters or SNPs -
someones say that as a whole Y-J2a has more coastal distribution in Europe (Northern Europe included) and is linked to one or more events without any link with first neolihtic spread (then it's J2b Balkans that is involved)
we can infer for J2a: Helladics, more recent Greeks and maybe some Phenicians?

The earliest Neolithic sites of Europe are located in Crete and mainland Greece. A debate persists concerning whether these farmers originated in neighboring Anatolia and the role of maritime colonization. To address these issues 171 samples were collected from areas near three known early Neolithic settlements in Greece together with 193 samples from Crete. An analysis of Y-chromosome haplogroups determined that the samples from the Greek Neolithic sites showed strong affinity to Balkan data, while Crete shows affinity with central/Mediterranean Anatolia. Haplogroup J2b-M12 was frequent in Thessaly and Greek Macedonia while haplogroup J2a-M410 was scarce. Alternatively, Crete, like Anatolia showed a high frequency of J2a-M410 and a low frequency of J2b-M12. This dichotomy parallels archaeobotanical evidence, specifically that while bread wheat (Triticum aestivum) is known from Neolithic Anatolia, Crete and southern Italy; it is absent from earliest Neolithic Greece. The expansion time of YSTR variation for haplogroup E3b1a2-V13, in the Peloponnese was consistent with an indigenous Mesolithic presence. In turn, two distinctive haplogroups, J2a1h-M319 and J2a1b1-M92, have demographic properties consistent with Bronze Age expansions in Crete, arguably from NW/W Anatolia and Syro-Palestine, while a later mainland (Mycenaean) contribution to Crete is indicated by relative frequencies of V13

[MOESAN]

is J2-M12 upstream to J2-M205 or the reverse?

[MOESAN]

is J2-M12 upstream to J2-M205 or the reverse?

I ANSWER MYSELF
J2b M205 downstream of M12 (Wikipedia), considered neolithical (7000/6000 BC?) in Balkans
J2a (some SNPs) considered as linked to Metal Ages (Bronze), and very strong in some tribes of Caucasus today -as a whole, J2 makes a "trail" around Mesopotamia, seaming linking Sumer and N-W near-eastern regions

[Yetos]

I don't know if that can help, but I stick here a digest I found about Y-J2a & J2b - perhaps there are more recent works on the market now but who knows? problems of naming too? letters or SNPs -
someones say that as a whole Y-J2a has more coastal distribution in Europe (Northern Europe included) and is linked to one or more events without any link with first neolihtic spread (then it's J2b Balkans that is involved)
we can infer for J2a: Helladics, more recent Greeks and maybe some Phenicians?

The earliest Neolithic sites of Europe are located in Crete and mainland Greece. A debate persists concerning whether these farmers originated in neighboring Anatolia and the role of maritime colonization. To address these issues 171 samples were collected from areas near three known early Neolithic settlements in Greece together with 193 samples from Crete. An analysis of Y-chromosome haplogroups determined that the samples from the Greek Neolithic sites showed strong affinity to Balkan data, while Crete shows affinity with central/Mediterranean Anatolia. Haplogroup J2b-M12 was frequent in Thessaly and Greek Macedonia while haplogroup J2a-M410 was scarce. Alternatively, Crete, like Anatolia showed a high frequency of J2a-M410 and a low frequency of J2b-M12. This dichotomy parallels archaeobotanical evidence, specifically that while bread wheat (Triticum aestivum) is known from Neolithic Anatolia, Crete and southern Italy; it is absent from earliest Neolithic Greece. The expansion time of YSTR variation for haplogroup E3b1a2-V13, in the Peloponnese was consistent with an indigenous Mesolithic presence. In turn, two distinctive haplogroups, J2a1h-M319 and J2a1b1-M92, have demographic properties consistent with Bronze Age expansions in Crete, arguably from NW/W Anatolia and Syro-Palestine, while a later mainland (Mycenaean) contribution to Crete is indicated by relative frequencies of V13

Interesting, where did you find it? or is it yours?

it just fit with all historical events that we we know about Greece and even more.

the strange in Balkans is that show no Mesolithic,
from upper Paleolithic they go straight to Neolithic, even epiPaleolithic is almost missing,

[MOESAN]

Interesting, where did you find it? or is it yours?

it just fit with all historical events that we we know about Greece and even more.

the bold letters text it si not my words (I 'd be very unable to give these details only the commentars are of my hand -
I'm sorry because very often I note some abstracts without noting the authors or the revew I found them in (I have no pretention to scholar works, I only pick up here and there what seams sensible or usefull, to support personal bets or guesses - I'll try to be more carefull - here some people have more data, more recent than me, maybe easier access - my "work" is trying to use my logic to get out some sensible conclusions, not more -
I 'll try to find my sources for this abstract that interess you -

when searching a first time, i found some percentages of ancient J2e and J2f that show the first as strong enough between Anatolia Caucasus, and very strong among Albanians, and the second presen in these lands too, but weaker as a whole, BUT almost the only one in Iberia - I 'll try to find out if "J2e" is for J2b and "J2f" for J2a
good luck!

[MOESAN]

cảm ơn vi thông tin bổ ích........................

thank you very much
could you translate in french, breton, spanish, italian, english or some language more or less known of me?
it could help!

[MOESAN]

Interesting, where did you find it? or is it yours?

it just fit with all historical events that we we know about Greece and even more.

the strange in Balkans is that show no Mesolithic,
from upper Paleolithic they go straight to Neolithic, even epiPaleolithic is almost missing,

I found it! here under:
Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic.

King RJ, Ozcan SS, Carter T, Kalfoğlu E, Atasoy S, Triantaphyllidis C, Kouvatsi A, Lin AA, Chow CE, Zhivotovsky LA, Michalodimitrakis M, Underhill PA.

Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Stanford University, 401 Quarry Road, Stanford, CA 94305-5722, USA.
Abstract

by the way, it's not 2 but 3 imputs: 2 differents neolithical waves and 1 Bronze Age one
good night