Does Lutheranism lead to Atheism?

[spongetaro]

I've noticed a correlation in Europe between predominantly Lutheran countries and countries with strong Atheism rates.
According to this link:http://www.infobarrel.com/25_Most_At...s_in_the_World, you find 6 Lutheran countries (Estonia, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Sweden) among the top ten Atheist countries in the World. Germany is 11th on the list, and I've read that Atheists are mostly found in the east where Lutheranism used to prevail.

[hope]

Yes, but interestingly outside of Europe, Lutheranism seems to be holding up or even increasing, especially in parts of Africa. According to Wikipedia 50% of Namibias population is Lutheran (seems quite a lot ). Also it appears to be thriving in Madagascar and Tanzania.

No,I don`t think Luther-ism is specifically much to do with the increase of atheism (IM0) I think the West in particular has been going in that direction for a while.

[spongetaro]

I think the West in particular has been going in that direction for a while.

I don't think that Western Europe as a whole is heading toward a more atheistic society, especially in some catholic countries/areas like Ireland, Italy, Portugal, Austria, Southern Germany etc

Yes, but interestingly outside of Europe, Lutheranism seems to be holding up or even increasing,

yes but as I said, I've only noticed that correlation in Europe. I must say that "historic" Lutheran societies have all became increasingly atheistic.

[hope]

QUOTE: I don't think that Western Europe as a whole is heading toward a more atheistic society,


No I don`t mean the West is running to-wards atheism, but for a while I have noticed more and more people (and not always the young) state on different places that they are atheists or "spiritual" in regards to pagan beliefs and such. Don`t you think ?

Quote : especially in some catholic countries/areas like Ireland

Yes in both the Republic of Ireland and the North of Ireland the two main Christian denominations are still "believers" and attend religious services (but we are not without atheists either)

[ElHorsto]

I've noticed a correlation in Europe between predominantly Lutheran countries and countries with strong Atheism rates.
According to this link:http://www.infobarrel.com/25_Most_At...s_in_the_World, you find 6 Lutheran countries (Estonia, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Sweden) among the top ten Atheist countries in the World. Germany is 11th on the list, and I've read that Atheists are mostly found in the east where Lutheranism used to prevail.

At least there are many exceptions like Switzerland, Latvia, USA, North Germany, Estonia. Further, it's actually the three scandinavian countries which are on top, and they could be considered as only one country due to their strong mutual cultural similarities.

Therefore it is my opinion, that atheism is less a protestant but rather a scandinavian peculiarity. One explanation could be the scandinavian collectivism (I'm aware that others disagree on that) and welfare state, which means that it is considered very important for every individual to be embedded in the society, improving the feeling of security. That makes belief in god less important than in the USA for instance. Poverty and fear have been important fuels of religion usually.
Another interesting fact is that approx. 80% of Norwegians are members of the norwegian church (collectivism?), regardless of atheism. That's one of the highest rates in europe. In Sweden there are 69% baptized members today, although still in 1972 they were staggering 95%.

[spongetaro]

Therefore it is my opinion, that atheism is less a protestant but rather a scandinavian peculiarity. One explanation could be the scandinavian collectivism (I'm aware that others disagree on that) and welfare state, which means that it is considered very important for every individual to be embedded in the society, improving the feeling of security. That makes belief in god less important than in the USA for instance. Poverty and fear have been important fuels of religion usually.

I agree that the belief in god balances the existence of inequalities in a society.

[Keegah]

Actually, coming from an American standpoint, our culture seems to be secularizing more and more each generation. I lived in the South for most of my life, where religious belief - Protestantism for the most part - is strongest. I still knew plenty of agnostics, people who self-reported as Christians but didn't attend church, and outright atheists. I've been told that there's a similar trend in Ireland.

Overall, it seems to me that Western culture as a whole is progressing towards secularism, and some countries are simply going slower than the others.

[spongetaro]

This guy found interesting relationship between HDI and Atheism http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvcDLTJZehg.
This is basically what you said: the absence of poverty makes religion useless.

[spongetaro]

Actually, coming from an American standpoint, our culture seems to be secularizing more and more each generation. I lived in the South for most of my life, where religious belief - Protestantism for the most part - is strongest. I still knew plenty of agnostics, people who self-reported as Christians but didn't attend church, and outright atheists. I've been told that there's a similar trend in Ireland.

Overall, it seems to me that Western culture as a whole is progressing towards secularism, and some countries are simply going slower than the others.

The trend seems indeed to be the same for the West as a whole although Northern American societies remain more attched to religion.
This is noticeable between European and American protestants but also between French Canadians and French from France. French canadian people are far more Catholics than the French nowadays.

[hope]

[is QUOTE=Keegah;396391]Actually, coming from an American standpoint, our culture seems to be secularizing more and more each generation. I lived in the South for most of my life, where religious belief - Protestantism for the most part - is strongest. I still knew plenty of agnostics, people who self-reported as Christians but didn't attend church, and outright atheists. I've been told that there's a similar trend in Ireland.

Overall, it seems to me that Western culture as a whole is progressing towards secularism, and some countries are simply going slower than the others.[/QUOTE]

Yes Keegah there are certainly people here that state they are Christian but don`t attend services ( but I think you will probably find that pretty much anywhere).
There are always those who feel they are believers without going to Church, just as there are those who do go and might not actually be living the Christian life, if you understand.
As for increasing secularism, I don`t know Keegah. If we take it at it`s meaning ( living life and making decisions without any religious pressure) I think in some cases this will not always be the case.(looking at secularism in the religious context here that is)

[ElHorsto]

This guy found interesting relationship between HDI and Atheism http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvcDLTJZehg.
This is basically what you said: the absence of poverty makes religion useless.

Thanks! He rather considers Atheism as cause for higher HDI, while I prefer to consider high HDI as cause of Atheism. It could be actually both ways.

Again regarding protestantism: It could actually be that protestantism indirectly promotes higher HDI by pushing for harder work and less mercy. That HDI in turn can further push atheism. There is also a saying that catholizism is linked to poverty. Maybe there is some truth in it (no offense, I like catholics).

But now I start to wonder about eastern europe and the orthodox countries in particular. Orthodox bulgarians and russians seem to be also quite atheist while having (still) low HDI. Czech are catholics (forced to be, protestants by desire) but very atheist. On the other hand the catholic poles and hungarians seem much less atheist. Maybe in east europe there is a slight correlation between orthodoxy/protestantism and atheism. Or maybe east european situation is just too difficult to analyze due to the special communist history, I don't know.

[LeBrok]

I agree that better economical situation correlates with less religiosity in people. The harder the life, the more people need heavenly help.
There are also underlying genetic predisposition too. The farther north of Europe one goes the less emotional, impulsive, and more stoic, pragmatic or practical people are. Either this or fewer god genes, have a big effect on need, or rather lack of it, to go to church, pray, or need to believe. Same genetic predispositions, together with good sense of justice and equality, might have lead the way to separation from corrupted Vatican. I think that Lutheran "philosophy/ways" were better fitted to characters of north europeans, and that's why there was quickly and strongly accepted.
Farther south we go, europeans are generally more emotional and more traditional in every way, this includes religion too. It is much harder for them to switch the "teams". Simple example: It was much easier to allow women as priests in christianity of norht (evangelical/lutheran) than christianity of south, or south/east (catholics and orthodox).

[spongetaro]

There are also underlying genetic predisposition too. The farther north of Europe one goes the less emotional, impulsive, and more stoic, pragmatic or practical people are. Either this or fewer god genes, have a big effect on need, or rather lack of it, to go to church, pray, or need to believe. Same genetic predispositions, together with good sense of justice and equality, might have lead the way to separation from corrupted Vatican. I think that Lutheran "philosophy/ways" were better fitted to characters of north europeans, and that's why there was quickly and strongly accepted.

Interestingly, a large part of American population is of Northern European origin although Americans are one of the most religious people in the World.

[spongetaro]

Czech are catholics (forced to be, protestants by desire) but very atheist. On the other hand the catholic poles and hungarians seem much less atheist. Maybe in east europe there is a slight correlation between orthodoxy/protestantism and atheism. Or maybe east european situation is just too difficult to analyze due to the special communist history, I don't know.

I only see a link between Lutheranism and Atheism, not between Protestantism and Atheism because there are also non-protestant atheistic countries like as you said Czech republic. France is quite atheistic too.

[ElHorsto]

I only see a link between Lutheranism and Atheism, not between Protestantism and Atheism because there are also non-protestant atheistic countries like as you said Czech republic. France is quite atheistic too.

Yes, sorry I was imprecise. Then lutheranism focuses the analysis even more to scandinavia.

[Taranis]

In my opinion, the view may be a bit distorted here due to the communist legacy in the former eastern bloc countries (ie, former East Germany, Estonia). If you look at such serveys and take the Czech Republic, it is also a very irreligious country.

[spongetaro]

In my opinion, the view may be a bit distorted here due to the communist legacy in the former eastern bloc countries (ie, former East Germany, Estonia). If you look at such serveys and take the Czech Republic, it is also a very irreligious country.

Has the communist legacy more influence than the religious legacy?
Lutheranism was prominent in both East Germany and Estonia. According to this study, Estonia is the least religious country in Europehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14635021.
In return, Poland, also a former Soviet satellite state, is one of the most religious country in Europe. Here the Catholic legacy is higher than the communist one.


As for the Czech republic, we must not forget that the Hussites were the forunners of the Lutheran Reformation.

[Taranis]

Has the communist legacy more influence than the religious legacy?
Lutheranism was prominent in both East Germany and Estonia. According to this study, Estonia is the least religious country in Europehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14635021.
In return, Poland, also a former Soviet satellite state, is one of the most religious country in Europe. Here the Catholic legacy is higher than the communist one.


As for the Czech republic, we must not forget that the Hussites were the forunners of the Lutheran Reformation.

These are fair points. I always suspected it was the combination of a Lutheran legacy and a communist legacy. I guess though, with Poland, the present situation might be a bit special in so far as that the late Pope John Paul II. was of Polish descend, and due to his entanglement in the events that ended of the Cold War (especially, the events in Poland that forewent it). I mean, you have on the other traditionally Catholic countries that are very unreligious (most notably France).

[spongetaro]

These are fair points. I always suspected it was the combination of a Lutheran legacy and a communist legacy. I guess though, with Poland, the present situation might be a bit special in so far as that the late Pope John Paul II. was of Polish descend, and due to his entanglement in the events that ended of the Cold War (especially, the events in Poland that forewent it). I mean, you have on the other traditionally Catholic countries that are very unreligious (most notably France).

In the Czech Republic and France, the Hussite movement (Forerunner of the Lutheran Reformation) and the French Revolution (atheistic cult of Reason) perhaps eventually lead to more irreligiosity.
In return, the English and American revolution were lead by Puritans which is why religirous ideas have lasted longuer there.

A difference between Lutheran and Catholic countries is that Catholic countries such as Poland and Ireland hold Catholicism as part of their own identity while Lutheran countries (Estonia and the Scandinavian countries especially) do not consider religion as their greatest value which is maybe why atheism is not viewed as a threat to Scandinavian values (Welfare state etc).

[sparkey]

Interestingly, a large part of American population is of Northern European origin although Americans are one of the most religious people in the World.

And further: The most Scandinavian part of the US (North Dakota and Minnesota) is also the most Lutheran and among the least atheistic. North Dakota in particular is known for having a strong German and Scandinavian heritage, with a lot of Lutherans, and hardly any atheists.

[spongetaro]

And further: The most Scandinavian part of the US (North Dakota and Minnesota) is also the most Lutheran and among the least atheistic. North Dakota in particular is known for having a strong German and Scandinavian heritage, with a lot of Lutherans, and hardly any atheists.

Interesting. Do you have an explanation for such a difference between religiosity among Scandinavian and their American cousins? (which is somewhat the same that between the French and Quebecers).

[LeBrok]

Interestingly, a large part of American population is of Northern European origin although Americans are one of the most religious people in the World.

Keep in mind that many emigrants to America were escaping religious persecutions. One might say that thanks to it, Americans have more instances of god gene, other words genetic predispositions towards spirituality through a founder effect. We should also mention that at the moment maybe one third of Americans are of north europeans heritage. Plus the balancing fact for America is a big population of blacks and latinos who are, one might say, extremely spiritual and religious.

[sparkey]

In return, the English and American revolution were lead by Puritans which is why religirous ideas have lasted longuer there.

What English revolution? The Glorious Revolution? That didn't happen until James II upset the Anglican Tories. It was an allied overthrow, not a Puritan victory.

Also, I think calling the American Revolution "led by Puritans" is a bit of an oversimplification. It was more of a Southern/Northern allied victory, and only New Englanders had a strong Puritan background. The South did start to get a Puritan influence over the course of the war and beyond it, though, as their traditional Anglicanism became unpopular, and they began to be converted to the Puritan-influenced Baptist religion. But even then, it's interesting that the most Puritan area of the country (New England) has become one of the less religious over time.

So I almost see the opposite pattern. Religious conservativism (in this case, Anglicans and traditional-Anglicans-becoming-Baptists) tends to lead to greater religious practice in the future than religious reformism and radicalism (in this case, Puritans, "true" Baptists, Quakers, etc.). It's not really inherent in the religion itself--different Lutherans have different patterns, different Baptists have different patterns, etc.--I think it's more of a product of how different groups use the same religion. It's just that closely-related groups with similar ideas tend to share the same religion (largely because culture influences religion so much and similar cultures tend to unite around things like religion), so you get a lot of correlation.

I've also read about how religious reformism and radicalism bred Mormonism. I think "conversion" to atheism is a comparable process in terms of who is most susceptible. The most likely convert is one from a culture that encourages questioning, glorifies religious conversion, and has a diversity of sects within reach.

[spongetaro]

Keep in mind that many emigrants to America were escaping religious persecutions. One might say that thanks to it, Americans have more instances of god gene, other words genetic predispositions towards spirituality through a founder effect. We should also mention that at the moment maybe one third of Americans are of north europeans heritage. Plus the balancing fact for America is a big population of blacks and latinos who are, one might say, extremely spiritual and religious.

Most of the migrants that came to the USA after the Independance war only went for Wealth and I 'm not sure that they carried the "god" gene. In my mind, the main reason why USA remain a religious country is that religion is deep rooted in the American values ("In God we trust"...).

[sparkey]

Interesting. Do you have an explanation for such a difference between religiosity among Scandinavian and their American cousins? (which is somewhat the same that between the French and Quebecers).

I think that this is a typical pattern, where a displaced population will hold onto a lot more of the old traditions than the original population will. It's like how English Quakers stopped dressing like George Fox within a few generations, but there are still some American Quakers who dress like that. I can think of a few reasons this pattern tends to occur, but I'm not sure which ones are the most important. It might vary. For example, it may be the "homesickness" of the displaced population encourages holding onto old traditions. It may also be that the displaced population tends to be the more conservative to begin with. And it may be that the relative isolation of the displaced population allows them to be free from the influence of new lines of thought.