Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 56

Thread: West asians vs Mediterranean neolithic farmers

  1. #1
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    West asians vs Mediterranean neolithic farmers



    We can split the Neolithic of South East Europe in two stages.

    The first starts in 6850 BC with the Seklo culture in Greece and lead to the foundation of Starcevo (former yougoslavia) and Körös culture (Hungary) . Those very first farmers may have carry the Mediterranean/ Southern admixture as well as haplogroups I2a and G2a.



    The second one saw the foundation around 5500 BC of Vinca and Dimini culture with clear links with the Anatolian area and Syria (the Halaf culture ) together forming the Dark Burnished Ware complex.
    M. Özdögan and N. Baseglen talk about a "common developping zone" between north west Anatolia and North East Balkans. Vinca style houses can be found in the Marmara sea area BEFORE the Black sea deluge ( Ilipinar, 6000 BC).
    The ofshoots of the Vinca culture (Karanovo etc) overtook the former local neolithic cultures and forced the local folks to flee in the peripheral regions (Moldavia, Illyria, etc) where we found high levels of I2a today.
    In the same time, the LBK culture also starts out of the old Starcevo körös neolithic stock that's why we've found G2a and I2a in LBK, and also Printed Cardium ancient dna.

    In the map below, the first culture that have their roots in the Seklo culture are shown in blue. They probably brought the Southern admixture to southwestern Europe.


    The second Neolithic wave is shown in orange. The LBK (rubanné in French) is red.


    The second neolithic wave in South eastern Europe may have been caused by the Black sea deluge with populations living in the southern Black sea shores probably carrying J2 (and maybe R1b L23 already) fleeing to Greece, and the Northern Balkan region via the Bosphorus. Hence the replacement of the old I2a and G2a by the J2 newcomers.
    Accordng to wikipedia:

    The "invasion theory" states that the Sesklo culture lasted more than one full millennium up until 5000 BC when it was violently conquered by people of the Dimini culture. The Dimini culture in this theory is considered different from that found at Sesklo



    In the two pictures below, we see the stricking resemblance between Vinca and the obeid (Mesopotamia) mother godess which ponts to a clear West asian link.

    mother godess from Vinca



    An other evidence of the Link between Vinca and West asian culture is the use of Swastika.
    Accordng to wikipedia:
    Among the earliest cultures utilizing swastika is the neolithic Vinča culture of South-East Europe .
    Interestingly, you also find swastika in the Hassuna-Samarra culture( -56000 - 5000 BC, Irak)



    The West asians farmers living in Anatolia and Caucasus may have been pushed westward to Europe and southward to the middle east, spreading their refined culture to the south (Halaf, Samarra, Obeid and ultimately Sumer) and the west (Vinca, Dimini).



    That second wave of Neolithic didn't reach Western, Northern and Southwestern Europe (except Sicily and southern Italy which are high in J2) that is why western and northern european have more Mediterranean than west Aian admixture.


    West-Asian-admixture.jpg



    What is tricky with the West asian distribution map is that it doesn't make the difference between mostly J2 and mostly R1b populations. The high levels of west Asian in south east europeans and Southern Italians is probably due to that later neolithic wave coming from Anatolia and carrying J2.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    739
    Points
    4,896
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,896, Level: 20
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    The first starts in 6850 BC with the Seklo culture in Greece and lead to the foundation of Starcevo (former yougoslavia) and Körös culture (Hungary) . Those very first farmers may have carry the Mediterranean/ Southern admixture as well as haplogroups I2a and G2a.
    That second wave of Neolithic didn't reach Western, Northern and Southwestern Europe (except Sicily and southern Italy which are high in J2) that is why western and northern european have more Mediterranean than west Aian admixture.
    Right now in another thread a new paper about iranian Y-lineages is being discussed, where Y-IJ has been found. It seems to support my theory that near-eastern immigrants were not only neolithic farmers, but some were still hunter-gatherers.

    "F-M89* and IJ-M429* were observed in the Iranian plateau: the first represents the ancestral state of the main Euro-Asiatic haplogroups [36] while the second probably moved toward southeast Europe sometime before the Last Glacial Maximum where it differentiated into the “western Eurasian” haplogroup I"

    Further, J2a-M92 variance distribution seems surprisingly stronger in the Balkans and Italy than the near-east, according to the maps. So maybe even J2 could have been already in Europe during the palaeolithic?

    To me it still looks more like the bulk of Atlantic/Mediterranean admixture comes from near-eastern hunter-gatherers, subsequently enriched by neolithic farmers.

  3. #3
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second Class10000 Experience PointsOverdriveVeteran
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,858
    Points
    18,906
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,906, Level: 41
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 44
    Overall activity: 46.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c PF3881+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Right now in another thread a new paper about iranian Y-lineages is being discussed, where Y-IJ has been found. It seems to support my theory that near-eastern immigrants were not only neolithic farmers, but some were still hunter-gatherers.
    I'm not sure I understand you here. You're saying that hunter-gatherers immigrated alongside farmers during the Neolithic? If so, I don't understand how finding IJ* supports that. Finding IJ* is also consistent with one branch of IJ (the one that became I) splitting from the others in West Asia and then bottlenecking in Europe during the Paleolithic, and then J not coming until the Neolithic. That said, I'm still leaving multiple possibilities open for European Haplogroup J in particular.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    739
    Points
    4,896
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,896, Level: 20
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I'm not sure I understand you here. You're saying that hunter-gatherers immigrated alongside farmers during the Neolithic?
    Not alongside, but before (Late Glacial, 12–19 kya). If I understand correctly the section "Evidence of Late Glacial expansions from a Near Eastern Y-chromosome reservoir", the authors suggest a connection to mtDNA T and J:

    "Although the Y-chromosome molecular clock is far from reaching the mtDNA level of accuracy, evidences of Late Glacial dispersals from the Middle East are provided by the large number of deep rooting lineages (rare elsewhere), from which diverged different branches that underwent Neolithic expansions."

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Right now in another thread a new paper about iranian Y-lineages is being discussed, where Y-IJ has been found. It seems to support my theory that near-eastern immigrants were not only neolithic farmers, but some were still hunter-gatherers.

    "F-M89* and IJ-M429* were observed in the Iranian plateau: the first represents the ancestral state of the main Euro-Asiatic haplogroups [36] while the second probably moved toward southeast Europe sometime before the Last Glacial Maximum where it differentiated into the “western Eurasian” haplogroup I"

    Further, J2a-M92 variance distribution seems surprisingly stronger in the Balkans and Italy than the near-east, according to the maps. So maybe even J2 could have been already in Europe during the palaeolithic?

    To me it still looks more like the bulk of Atlantic/Mediterranean admixture comes from near-eastern hunter-gatherers, subsequently enriched by neolithic farmers.
    so west-asian is the caucasus in the majority.

    some say, J1 was inland and J2 coast people .........If J2 came out of J* then they are more hunters than farmers as compared to J1 ........IMO

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registeredOverdrive10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Posts
    1,541
    Points
    11,248
    Level
    31
    Points: 11,248, Level: 31
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 2
    Overall activity: 99.4%


    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Well in agriculture and junters-gotherers we must notice few things

    Sheppards belong where? in agriculture or in gatherers?

    and early farmers
    knew about pasterizing?

    knew about irrigation?

    cause its another thing to farm millet or wheat
    and another to farm the above with irrigation

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    739
    Points
    4,896
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,896, Level: 20
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Well in agriculture and junters-gotherers we must notice few things

    Sheppards belong where? in agriculture or in gatherers?
    For instance in the Levant, there existed the Natufian culture of hunter-gatherers still 13000-10000 years ago.
    It belongs to the Epipaleolithic which technologically merged with the european Mesolithic.
    Though the authors are refering to an earlier period of 12000-19000 years ago.

    and early farmers
    knew about pasterizing?

    knew about irrigation?

    cause its another thing to farm millet or wheat
    and another to farm the above with irrigation
    I think these are all neolithic, not hunter-gatherer techniques.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    739
    Points
    4,896
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,896, Level: 20
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    so west-asian is the caucasus in the majority.

    some say, J1 was inland and J2 coast people .........If J2 came out of J* then they are more hunters than farmers as compared to J1 ........IMO
    Maybe. J2a-M92 variance has a maximum in Anatolia, but not in the Levant. On the other hand, Göbekli Tepe is in Anatolia, which was right in a transition to the neolithic, thus it is still not clear whether J2a-M92 is really related to paleolithic migrations.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    20-12-11
    Posts
    57
    Points
    1,447
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,447, Level: 10
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 103
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Kosovo



    I don't think I2a males were early Neolithic Mediterranean farmers that came from Middle East.They were local people that joined the early farmers.Moreover all of I2a in Balkans is of I2a2-Dinaric cluster which is supposed to come with Slavic migrations.

    Dienekes made a good comparison linking the Middle Eastern/Southern component with G2a and Atlantic_Baltic with I2a.It fits well.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    03-07-12
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    259
    Points
    2,509
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,509, Level: 14
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 241
    Overall activity: 25.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-m223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H64

    Ethnic group
    Irish, English, French, German, Swedish, and Finnish
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    I don't think I2a males were early Neolithic Mediterranean farmers that came from Middle East.They were local people that joined the early farmers.Moreover all of I2a in Balkans is of I2a2-Dinaric cluster which is supposed to come with Slavic migrations.

    Dienekes made a good comparison linking the Middle Eastern/Southern component with G2a and Atlantic_Baltic with I2a.It fits well.
    Yeah, all of Haplogroup I1 and 2 are native, paleolithic haplogroups from Europe. These were not late farming folk. These were the Europeans who hunted mammoth, lived in Doggerland, and otherwise chillaxin' jackson'd in Ice Age Europe.

  11. #11
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Paleolithic or not, I2a and even I1 might have carried the Southern/Mediterranean admixture. Folks of the Megalithic, Cucuteni Tripolje and even the Scandinavian TRB cultures are all described as Mediterraneans, gracile Mediterraneans.
    Mediterranean doesn't mean "foreign" or "Middle East" at all. It is a human type that appeared BEFORE the neolithic in some part of Europe.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    20-12-11
    Posts
    57
    Points
    1,447
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,447, Level: 10
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 103
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Kosovo



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Paleolithic or not, I2a and even I1 might have carried the Southern/Mediterranean admixture. Folks of the Megalithic, Cucuteni Tripolje and even the Scandinavian TRB cultures are all described as Mediterraneans, gracile Mediterraneans.
    Mediterranean doesn't mean "foreign" or "Middle East" at all. It is a human type that appeared BEFORE the neolithic in some part of Europe.
    We don't know the genetic composition of Cucuteni folks yet.There is no evidence for what are you saying.Early Neolithic farmers(Mediterraneans) are supposed to come with Cardium Pottery Culture who were predominantly carrying G2a uniparental marker with maybe small amount of EV13.I2a could have well been already found in Europe.

  13. #13
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    We don't know the genetic composition of Cucuteni folks yet.There is no evidence for what are you saying.Early Neolithic farmers(Mediterraneans) are supposed to come with Cardium Pottery Culture who were predominantly carrying G2a uniparental marker with maybe small amount of EV13.I2a could have well been already found in Europe.
    In many archeological books Cucuteni folks and Danubian neolithic farmers are described as Mediterraneans.
    There isn't evidences either that the Mediterraneans came with the early farmers. In North Western France (Téviec and Hoëdic), you find Mediterraneans as early as the Mesolithic so why would Mesolithic Greeks not be Mediterraneans too? Do you believe that before the begining of the Neolithic, the Greeks carried the Northern Europe admixture?
    Also, you might have noticed that Sardinians are I2a rather than G2a and Nevertheless the most Mediterranean population in Europe.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registeredOverdrive10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Posts
    1,541
    Points
    11,248
    Level
    31
    Points: 11,248, Level: 31
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 2
    Overall activity: 99.4%


    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Well I am still uncertain

    cause

    1) case of G2a send us to Otzi meaning IE was an early farming (shepperds, millet grain farmers, probably no irrigation ) before 6 000 BC
    So how old is I Hg?
    what do you say Sparkey? what extracts from Nortverd

    2) case of R1b and R1a which I used in other posts, lacks in some no IE populations that are carriers
    Tumuli case about 4500 BC

    3) case of J2 is strange
    if we connect it with irrigation colonisation and merchant and late R1b M-23 (hettites) is giving us max 3 000 BC
    but if we don't?
    But I wonder chronologically can we connect early forms of IJ with G2 or not?

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    20-12-11
    Posts
    57
    Points
    1,447
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,447, Level: 10
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 103
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Kosovo



    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    In many archeological books Cucuteni folks and Danubian neolithic farmers are described as Mediterraneans.
    There isn't evidences either that the Mediterraneans came with the early farmers. In North Western France (Téviec and Hoëdic), you find Mediterraneans as early as the Mesolithic so why would Mesolithic Greeks not be Mediterraneans too? Do you believe that before the begining of the Neolithic, the Greeks carried the Northern Europe admixture?
    Also, you might have noticed that Sardinians are I2a rather than G2a and Nevertheless the most Mediterranean population in Europe.
    There is.Southern component is a very important component in Middle East.Remember,SouthWestAsian is mostly Proto-Med with some East-African alleles.So they must have come with Early Neolithic farmers.

    Also,haplogroup percentages means nothing since they can drastically change throughout the age.Sardinians still have presence of G2a mostly concentrated in Northern Sardinia and Southern Corsica.

    Despite the Med Sardinians have a lot of Atlantic_Baltic component which can be explained with the presence of I2a haplogroup.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    There is.Southern component is a very important component in Middle East.Remember,SouthWestAsian is mostly Proto-Med with some East-African alleles.So they must have come with Early Neolithic farmers.

    Also,haplogroup percentages means nothing since they can drastically change throughout the age.Sardinians still have presence of G2a mostly concentrated in Northern Sardinia and Southern Corsica.

    Despite the Med Sardinians have a lot of Atlantic_Baltic component which can be explained with the presence of I2a haplogroup.
    Does old persia and assyria mean south-west asians?

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    739
    Points
    4,896
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,896, Level: 20
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    Despite the Med Sardinians have a lot of Atlantic_Baltic component which can be explained with the presence of I2a haplogroup.
    Actually it is a good point, which hints towards an interesting difference between K12b and K10a:

    According to K10a you are right, there is ca. 27% Atlantic_Baltic in Sardinians. But according to K12b they have exactly 0% North_euro. That's strange, since Atlantic_baltic and North_euro distributions are very similar elsewhere.

    That means that:

    1. these 27% of Atlantic_Baltic got suddenly added to the Atlantic_med component instead of North_euro by K12b. Let's call it the unknown admixture X.

    2. At the same time, another part of Atlantic_med seemingly became Caucasus in K12b for Sardinians.

    3. Does it mean that admixture X is exclusively mesolithic/paleolithic west european? I don't think so, since also the Greeks for instance have at least as much Atlantic_Baltic (28.9%) as Sardinians.

    The only logical conclusion is that there must have beem a rather old mediterranean component which got added to Atlantic_Baltic in K10a.

    (Contrary to some others, I don't consider K12b as invalid, because it just shows a different point of view, hiding and showing different features)

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,434
    Points
    5,865
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,865, Level: 22
    Level completed: 63%, Points required for next Level: 185
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian / Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    There is.Southern component is a very important component in Middle East.Remember,SouthWestAsian is mostly Proto-Med with some East-African alleles.So they must have come with Early Neolithic farmers.

    Also,haplogroup percentages means nothing since they can drastically change throughout the age.Sardinians still have presence of G2a mostly concentrated in Northern Sardinia and Southern Corsica.

    Despite the Med Sardinians have a lot of Atlantic_Baltic component which can be explained with the presence of I2a haplogroup.
    Malsori, you are mixing apples with oranges. First, because Southwest Asian and Southern are not the same, and you assume that its huge presence in the Middle East makes both things equivalent. Wrong.

    If you check the Fst distances, you'll see that the Southern component is a lot more removed from Black African clusters than the Southwest Asian is. Sardinians and Basques (as well as some Iberians), show very little West Asian and Southwest Asian, which are no way absent among Middle Eastern populations. If the resolution is very high, those populations show very high percents of Southwest Asian, and if the K's are lower, they get substantial West Asian despite being modal in Southern. So it's not clear at all that Southern must have come with Neolithic farmers, it could have been in Europe even long before considering its non despreciable presence in Southern Europe.

    Another explanation is that Neolithic Farmers were not as Middle Eastern as some people thinks, exactly the same valid IMO. Simply because, as I said in other threads, what is identified nowadays as Middle Eastern, is a composite of West Asian and hints of African superposed to the Mediterranean substratum. Hence, quite different considering what Southern in its "pure" form is: very distant from inner African groups, and not specially close to the West Asian cluster according to K7b.

    What I say it's more evident in the K10a run, check what Dienekes' said about Mediterranean (Modal in Sardinians, and quite high in both Basques and Iberians):

    As for the African/Sub-Saharan components, they tend to be closer to the Southwest Asian/Red Sea components, not the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med one.

    The Mediterranean components appear to be the most remote ones overall (also evidenced by the fact that Basques and Sardinians nearly always form the peak in the West/East Eurasian/African triangle), which makes sense since the region where the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med component is modal is most remote from both Africa and Asia along the land migration routes.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Malsori, you are mixing apples with oranges. First, because Southwest Asian and Southern are not the same, and you assume that its huge presence in the Middle East makes both things equivalent. Wrong.

    If you check the Fst distances, you'll see that the Southern component is a lot more removed from Black African clusters than the Southwest Asian is. Sardinians and Basques (as well as some Iberians), show very little West Asian and Southwest Asian, which are no way absent among Middle Eastern populations. If the resolution is very high, those populations show very high percents of Southwest Asian, and if the K's are lower, they get substantial West Asian despite being modal in Southern. So it's not clear at all that Southern must have come with Neolithic farmers, it could have been in Europe even long before considering its non despreciable presence in Southern Europe.

    Another explanation is that Neolithic Farmers were not as Middle Eastern as some people thinks, exactly the same valid IMO. Simply because, as I said in other threads, what is identified nowadays as Middle Eastern, is a composite of West Asian and hints of African superposed to the Mediterranean substratum. Hence, quite different considering what Southern in its "pure" form is: very distant from inner African groups, and not specially close to the West Asian cluster according to K7b.

    What I say it's more evident in the K10a run, check what Dienekes' said about Mediterranean (Modal in Sardinians, and quite high in both Basques and Iberians):

    As for the African/Sub-Saharan components, they tend to be closer to the Southwest Asian/Red Sea components, not the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med one.

    The Mediterranean components appear to be the most remote ones overall (also evidenced by the fact that Basques and Sardinians nearly always form the peak in the West/East Eurasian/African triangle), which makes sense since the region where the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med component is modal is most remote from both Africa and Asia along the land migration routes.
    i do not know how you can state that Iberia has none or nearly none of south-west asian, when Q, L, K and T are present there, especially in the north

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    739
    Points
    4,896
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,896, Level: 20
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 154
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Actually it is a good point, which hints towards an interesting difference between K12b and K10a:

    According to K10a you are right, there is ca. 27% Atlantic_Baltic in Sardinians. But according to K12b they have exactly 0% North_euro. That's strange, since Atlantic_baltic and North_euro distributions are very similar elsewhere.

    That means that:

    1. these 27% of Atlantic_Baltic got suddenly added to the Atlantic_med component instead of North_euro by K12b. Let's call it the unknown admixture X.

    2. At the same time, another part of Atlantic_med seemingly became Caucasus in K12b for Sardinians.

    3. Does it mean that admixture X is exclusively mesolithic/paleolithic west european? I don't think so, since also the Greeks for instance have at least as much Atlantic_Baltic (28.9%) as Sardinians.

    The only logical conclusion is that there must have beem a rather old mediterranean component which got added to Atlantic_Baltic in K10a.

    (Contrary to some others, I don't consider K12b as invalid, because it just shows a different point of view, hiding and showing different features)
    Additional remark: The K12b North_euro comonent for Moroccans is also exactly 0%, but K12a Atlantic_Baltic still varies between 5% and 13%. That's similar to Sardinia, but it's already in Africa.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    03-07-12
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    259
    Points
    2,509
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,509, Level: 14
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 241
    Overall activity: 25.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-m223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H64

    Ethnic group
    Irish, English, French, German, Swedish, and Finnish
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Paleolithic or not, I2a and even I1 might have carried the Southern/Mediterranean admixture. Folks of the Megalithic, Cucuteni Tripolje and even the Scandinavian TRB cultures are all described as Mediterraneans, gracile Mediterraneans.
    Mediterranean doesn't mean "foreign" or "Middle East" at all. It is a human type that appeared BEFORE the neolithic in some part of Europe.
    Those who carried the haplogroup might have other relations to Mediterraneans, but the actual haplogroup is the earliest in Europe from Homo sapiens and the only Homo sapiens for 20,000 years (unless N came into NE Europe during the Ice Age). If we assume Mediterranean types emerged in the Middle East, then this type must have evolved well before 30,000 BC in order to associate it with I, as I migrated into Europe at around 30,000 BC.

  22. #22
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by JFWR View Post
    Those who carried the haplogroup might have other relations to Mediterraneans, but the actual haplogroup is the earliest in Europe from Homo sapiens and the only Homo sapiens for 20,000 years (unless N came into NE Europe during the Ice Age). If we assume Mediterranean types emerged in the Middle East, then this type must have evolved well before 30,000 BC in order to associate it with I, as I migrated into Europe at around 30,000 BC.
    Haplogroup I is indeed one of the earliest in Europe but maybe not the first. You can at least say that haplogroup I was in Europe at the end of the Gravettian culture (31 000 BP - 24 000 BP) but you can't say that it was already there during the Aurignacien (37 000 BP-30 000 BP) since haplogroup I is 25 000 years old.
    The first modern humans in Europe might have been just IJ*.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    20-12-11
    Posts
    57
    Points
    1,447
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,447, Level: 10
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 103
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Kosovo



    SouthWestAsian is pulled toward Africa because they have some East-African alleles while most of it is Paleo-Med.Read well before you reply.Eitherway the Southern component is widespread and ancient in MENA to not have originated there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Malsori, you are mixing apples with oranges. First, because Southwest Asian and Southern are not the same, and you assume that its huge presence in the Middle East makes both things equivalent. Wrong.

    If you check the Fst distances, you'll see that the Southern component is a lot more removed from Black African clusters than the Southwest Asian is. Sardinians and Basques (as well as some Iberians), show very little West Asian and Southwest Asian, which are no way absent among Middle Eastern populations. If the resolution is very high, those populations show very high percents of Southwest Asian, and if the K's are lower, they get substantial West Asian despite being modal in Southern. So it's not clear at all that Southern must have come with Neolithic farmers, it could have been in Europe even long before considering its non despreciable presence in Southern Europe.

    Another explanation is that Neolithic Farmers were not as Middle Eastern as some people thinks, exactly the same valid IMO. Simply because, as I said in other threads, what is identified nowadays as Middle Eastern, is a composite of West Asian and hints of African superposed to the Mediterranean substratum. Hence, quite different considering what Southern in its "pure" form is: very distant from inner African groups, and not specially close to the West Asian cluster according to K7b.

    What I say it's more evident in the K10a run, check what Dienekes' said about Mediterranean (Modal in Sardinians, and quite high in both Basques and Iberians):

    As for the African/Sub-Saharan components, they tend to be closer to the Southwest Asian/Red Sea components, not the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med one.

    The Mediterranean components appear to be the most remote ones overall (also evidenced by the fact that Basques and Sardinians nearly always form the peak in the West/East Eurasian/African triangle), which makes sense since the region where the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med component is modal is most remote from both Africa and Asia along the land migration routes.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    SouthWestAsian is pulled toward Africa because they have some East-African alleles while most of it is Paleo-Med.Read well before you reply.Eitherway the Southern component is widespread and ancient in MENA to not have originated there.
    would this help

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,434
    Points
    5,865
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,865, Level: 22
    Level completed: 63%, Points required for next Level: 185
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian / Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    SouthWestAsian is pulled toward Africa because they have some East-African alleles while most of it is Paleo-Med.Read well before you reply.Eitherway the Southern component is widespread and ancient in MENA to not have originated there.
    The Southern component is an admixed cluster even if possibly the most West Eurasian, as well as the Atlantic_Baltic is. The fact it's more widespread it could just mean it's older and had more time to move, we don't know it. Note that both Basques and Sardinians are almost fully Atlantic_Baltic + Med at k10a, and at K7b they are Atlantic_Baltic + Southern (worth to mention that Sardinians are very high in Med and Southern). And as Dienekes' points pretty well, both represent the peak in the West Eurasian cline when running genetic plots. Then, Southern could have originated in Southern Europe according to this results, although of course I am not saying it's 100% true.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Neolithic farmers: Southwest Europeans or West Asians ?
    By Maciamo in forum Autosomal Genetics
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 29-05-12, 04:16
  2. Who do you think are the greatest Asians in history?
    By Zauriel in forum History & Civilisations
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 25-11-11, 20:03
  3. Dna reveals origin of first European farmers
    By Melusine in forum Ancient DNA studies
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-11-11, 00:22
  4. Mesolithic and Neolithic inhabitants of West-Europe
    By Haganus in forum mtDNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 15-05-10, 17:19

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •