West asians vs Mediterranean neolithic farmers

[Kardu]

Remark: without violence and aggression no progress would have happened and we would become long time extinct :):) And this has nothing to do with 'being African'

[MOESAN]

Remark: without violence and aggression no progress would have happened and we would become long time extinct :):) And this has nothing to do with 'being African'

curious developpment of this thread!!!
I agree and disagree with a lot of persons here
1- yes, violence was/is everywhere, less or more, attached I suppose to greediness -
2- no, violence and aggressivity never send progress in Humanity - everyone has to be skilful for defense, but does not need being aggressive - the first axes was for cutting wood and timber, not for killing or only killing animals at first (and yet this last interprétation is very uncertain) - when man want he can transform every stool into an arm and every medical mixture into poison, but it is not an everduring natural condition of living beings - if one makes something and is immediatey challenged by someone else for possession, there is no progress but stagnation - progress comes when the other man tries to do the same farther, or side by side, or even tries to do better: competition is not always aggression... when man keeps too long time his skills and competences for himself in place of sharing, regression is not far, when he shares, progress comes quickly -
3- we are very far here from the topic: autosomals an their significations!
I do not see too well all these argumentations about ice age, toundra and so on... even in the hardest of the LGM tribes of men was running Europe from every direction to every direction, the only difference being that the most harder climatic regions saw less people- the so called "refugiums" at this period was not as populated the one as the other and some northernly places at the frontiers of glaciers was settled by nomadic tribes as today in every toundra - what we can suppose is that the southern regions was the heavier ones for demographic at the worst of the climate, but after that, quickly enough, other people, less numerous at first, begun to grow in number too - about all that I say i 'm a little confused by some analysis of DODECAD: someones shows something, others put only confusion, the terminologies are unstable - D-9 and D-10 seams to me more usefull and appears showing a first arrival from east into S-W Europe (in Basques for the most) a second arrival populating Sardigna and S-E Europe - I am not sure this "basque" component is pure as showed but a good bit of it could be paleo- or old mesolithic (see Finnland); and could be passed by North better than by South - the Sardinian do not appear as very autochtonous finally, even if ancient enough in their island and they show some possible links with West Asians and even with S-W Asians-
I avow i am not helped too much by the namings as 'atlant-balt' or 'atlant-med' or 'mediterranean' or 'NW european' - I wait better defined pools of autosomals

[Yetos]

Remark: without violence and aggression no progress would have happened and we would become long time extinct :):) And this has nothing to do with 'being African'

Violence is not the God that some try to show

in Fact I do not believe that All Europe and IE DNA is after violence,

A good point is also diseases, resist in virus, and strange forms,

A good example is some anaimias, the one who has these anaimias, might not be so strong, but he will not suffer from diseases like Mallaria, West Nile virus etc.

Virus and diseases can change DNA map more easily and more Heavy than war and Battles,
consider that in ancient times, we had war and battles among Rulers major and not among Farmers-Workers-Slaves, the winner took titles and the slaves and workers of the other, But did not kill them cause they were usefull,

So I don't believe that violence change so much Genetical maps, except in some cases of Genocides (like Rwanda),
Violence change mainly the rulers class, and after the marriage of new rulers class with local women gave New Hg to the older population.

[Kardu]

In the Bronze Age the people were African in mentality so there was warfare. Tribal warfare has always been with us. Look at the Middle East now it is still here.

Of course, don't forget it was dangerous outside as there were plenty of wolves, lions, bears around.

My remark was mainly directed to Oriental's post :)
Indeed, I wouldn't like to go off-topic, but have still to mention that the history and technological progress was made by warlike tribes and peoples. Even now the direction of scientific/technological research is controlled and guided by the military complex. Pacifists would be upset but I doubt anyone can point to a peaceful tribe, society, civilization which made a significant contribution to technological development.

[Yetos]

My remark was mainly directed to Oriental's post :)
Indeed, I wouldn't like to go off-topic, but have still to mention that the history and technological progress was made by warlike tribes and peoples. Even now the direction of scientific/technological research is controlled and guided by the military complex. Pacifists would be upset but I doubt anyone can point to a peaceful tribe, society, civilization which made a significant contribution to technological development.

well it depends the kind of technology,

I don't believe that Cancer cure is after military actions, neither Golden gate was done for military reason, neither Aristotle when started the Taxonomy which is considered starting of clear thought science had his mind in wars and battles, neither electricity was searched for military reasons.

Allthough I have to agree that huge amount of founds are being spend to make 'perfect weapons'
Internet starts from RPnet which was a military 'weapon'
I agree that in war times we had perfection of some knowledge and rapid developement due to the presure of winning.
a good example is nitroglygerine which was found to help miners and become a massive weapon like dynamite at its time,

on the other hand sometimes wars stop progress of searching field and technology,
a good example is the Antikythera mechanism. the first mechanical computer made in Syracuses,
if Romans care about navigation and astronomy more than searching military sciences, then Antikythera mechanism technology might be known 2000 years before, and could help us calculate more complex phenomena,

[oriental]

curious developpment of this thread!!!

History helps in understanding how genetic patterns occurred. As Maciamo pointed out in various threads that there were great discontinuities in the European populations as shown by the genes found in the ancient corpses. Hunter-gatherers were the healthiest people around as they were few and they moved around thus they were not disease carriers. It is the agriculturalists living in static and dense areas that carried diseases. The Nomads wouldn't be disease carriers either as they moved around. Disease killing the hunter-gathers doesn't quite match.