European Tree Names (offtopic from NE autosomal component)

[ElHorsto]

- concerning the Saami, they are speakers of Uralic languages (the language family that also includes Finnish, Estonian and much more distantly, Hungarian). The Uralic languages are generally thought to be Mesolithic (or, lacking that, at least, the language of hunter-gatherers), but there's considerable reason to assume that the Uralic languages were not native to Europe. In the past there have been attempts to link the Uralic languages to the Turkic languages (Uralo-Altaic), and more recently (and perhaps more fruitful), the Yukaghir languages of Siberia. Regardless of this, Haplogroup N (which is usually associated with the Uralic-speaking peoples) did evidently originate somewhere in Northeast Asia, and it would seem thus likely that the Proto-Uralic peoples arrived from the east across the taiga zone some time during the Mesolithic. If this is the case, then the Proto-Uralic peoples would have intermixed with the native hunter-gatherers of Europe (who, if we follow the idea, may have been bearers of the North European component).

- regarding the question of the Indo-Europeans, it should be pointed out that the Proto-Indo-European language is merely a reconstruction of a (essentially hypothetical) "point" from which all descendant branches of the proto-language (Proto-Italo-Celtic, Proto-Germanic, Proto-Armenian, Proto-Indo-Iranic, Proto-Balto-Slavic, Proto-Tocharian etc.) all diverged. This point is usually assumed to have been in the late(st) Neolithic (most importantly, the Proto-Indo-Europeans are usually thought to have been in possession of wheeled vehicles). In reality, it would not have been a single point but a rather long time period (probably spanning centuries), and the Proto-Indo-Europeans must have had a history before that, one that (in however way) must go back into the early Neolithic (and Mesolithic before that). What this means for this context is that the Proto-Indo-Europeans may very well have been bearers of the North European component as a result of their pre-history.

There seems to exist an interesting word for birch trees which is common among all major IE languages:

Germanic, Slavic, Baltic:

Germanic: Berko
Old Prussian: Berse
Lith.:Berlas
Slavic: Bereza

Celto-Italic:

Irish: Beith
Galician: Bidueiro
Italian: Betulla
Latin: Betulis

Birches are the typical flora of north-eastern europe, exactly where North_european/Atlantic_Baltic components are modal.
Yet the Celto-Italic words seem to be somewhat different from the Baltic/Slavic/Germanic, but still similar. (I'm not so skilled yet in linguistics)

These languages seem to have unrelated words:

Basque: urki
Finnish: koivu
Spanish: abedul
Romanian: mesteacăn
Turkish: huş ağacı
Hungarian: nyírfa, vesszőkorbács

[ElHorsto]

Basque: urki
Spanish: abedul

Or is urki related to berko and abedul to betulla?

[Taranis]

There seems to exist an interesting word for birch trees which is common among all major IE languages:

Germanic, Slavic, Baltic:

Germanic: Berko
Old Prussian: Berse
Lith.:Berlas
Slavic: Bereza

Celto-Italic:

Irish: Beith
Galician: Bidueiro
Italian: Betulla
Latin: Betulis

Birches are the typical flora of north-eastern europe, exactly where North_european/Atlantic_Baltic components are modal.
Yet the Celto-Italic words seem to be somewhat different from the Baltic/Slavic/Germanic, but still similar. (I'm not so skilled yet in linguistics)

These languages seem to have unrelated words:

Basque: urki
Finnish: koivu
Spanish: abedul
Romanian: mesteacăn
Turkish: huş ağacı
Hungarian: nyírfa, vesszőkorbács

Or is urki related to berko and abedul to betulla?

Hmm... "abedul" is likely from Latin "betula". You can also add Catalan "bedoll", French "bouleau" which derive too from Latin "betula".

In the Celtic context, there's also Welsh "bedu" and Breton "bezv", which together with Irish "beith" suggests a Proto-Celtic *betu-, which is, I think obviously, a cognate with Latin "betula".

As for a connection between the Celtic/Latin word and the Germanic/Balto-Slavic word, I'm sceptical about that. The ancestral form of the former is *gwit- (via the development *gw > *b), and the as such has cognates in Germanic (Anglo-Saxon "cwidu", English "cud", German "Kitt") and Indic (Sanskrit "jatu", meaning "gum"). The original word may have had the meaning of 'resin'.

To demonstrate that the above isn't all bogus, which one might think if one reads that out of context, you can also make a comparison between Irish "bean" ("woman"), English "queen" and Sanskrit "jani".

On the Basque word, the word is also found as "burki" late vascologist Trask certainly noted the similarity:

urki (B G HN), urkhi (L), burkhi (LN), bǘrkhi (Z), epurki (G), turki (B) n. ‘birch’ (bot.) Ca. 1800, but attested much earlier as an element in surnames and in toponyms, such
as Urkiola in Vizcaya.

Probably from *burki, OUO; common variant by P9. The last variant is mysterious, though M. (1961a: 260) suggests an assimilated intermediate form *kurki or *gurki. A
link has often been suggested to the Germanic word represented by English ‘birch’, but
there is no certain case of a Germanic word taken into Bq. without Romance mediation.

EDIT: I have moved this discussion into a separate thread. The original discussion can be still found here.

[ElHorsto]

As for a connection between the Celtic/Latin word and the Germanic/Balto-Slavic word, I'm sceptical about that. The ancestral form of the former is *gwit- (via the development *gw > *b), and the as such has cognates in Germanic (Anglo-Saxon "cwidu", English "cud", German "Kitt") and Indic (Sanskrit "jatu", meaning "gum"). The original word may have had the meaning of 'resin'.

Very interesting, thanks! Possibly one might then speculate that Italic/Celtic speakers were not big experts for trees, because they had no special word for birches in particular, just for 'raisin'-trees in general. Possibly they did not live in the northern forests, which is not so surprising I think.

But the Germanic berko/birke/björk seems to represent yet a third branch, right? Because the word is a cognate of the satem berse/bereza, but yet it is centum because of the 'k' instead of 'z/s', right?

On the Basque word, the word is also found as "burki" late vascologist Trask certainly noted the similarity:

The basques never cease to surprise. 'Burki' and german 'Birke' sound very similar.

[Taranis]

Very interesting, thanks! Possibly one might then speculate that Italic/Celtic speakers were not big experts for trees, because they had no special word for birches in particular, just for 'raisin'-trees in general. Possibly they did not live in the northern forests, which is not so surprising I think.

No, I meant resin (German "Harz"). Not raisins. And it's actually a very good description for the tree. It would actually be interesting to post a more extensive list of tree names for various languages here.

But the Germanic berko/birke/björk seems to represent yet a third branch, right? Because the word is a cognate of the satem berse/bereza, but yet it is centum because of the 'k' instead of 'z/s', right?

I think the Germanic and Balto-Slavic words are cognates (and yes, it's an example of the Centum/Satem split), from a common root *bherg´-. In my opinion the Albanian word "bredh" is also a cognate of this, but the word means 'fir' or 'spruce' instead.

The basques never cease to surprise. 'Burki' and german 'Birke' sound very similar.

Yes certainly, but the problem is convincingly demonstrating a link. The development *g > *k is uniquely Germanic (part of Grimm's Law), so the question is really explaining the /k/ in Basque.

EDIT:

back on the topic of birches, there's Albanian "mështekna" and Romanian "mesteacăn".

[Maciamo]

Or is urki related to berko and abedul to betulla?

I would think so too.

Btw, the French for birch is bouleau, which has been so corrupted from the Latin betulla in just a few centuries that it is almost unrecognisable (just the 'b' and 'l' are shared). It comes from the Old French boulel, itself probably from boudel, which seems to be an inversion of the vowel sounds of betul(la) with 't' becoming 'd'.

The Walloon word is beyôle or bôle.

[ElHorsto]

No, I meant resin (German "Harz"). Not raisins. And it's actually a very good description for the tree.

Right, resin of course. I understood what you meant, I just introduced a typo, sorry. My point was that a word which describes resin-producing trees is more general than a word for birch-trees in particular, hence assuming a less differentiated vocabulary for particular northern trees in celtic-italic. But of course, this assumption has yet to be checked by us for different trees.

It would actually be interesting to post a more extensive list of tree names for various languages here.

Yes, definitely. Some maps showing the distribution of certain trees would be helpful as well, ideally for ancient flora, since the climate might have changed. The presence or lack of mediterranean or steppe flora in certain languages would be especially interesting. Maybe I'll have time later to research more.

back on the topic of birches, there's Albanian "mështekna" and Romanian "mesteacăn".

Interesting.

Yes certainly, but the problem is convincingly demonstrating a link. The development *g > *k is uniquely Germanic (part of Grimm's Law), so the question is really explaining the /k/ in Basque.

I think almost every modern language must have aquired a word for any tree meanwhile, at least by borrowing. Languages like Latin, Arabic, or today English, are very prone to be lenders of new words due to fashion and popularity. Loan words might be indicative for an initial vocabulary gap. So maybe urki/burki is a loan from germanic (or related proto languages) due to a vocabulary gap for birches in basque. Still strange, because actually latin rather than germanic borrowings should be expected for the basque language.

[zanipolo]

I would think so too.

Btw, the French for birch is bouleau, which has been so corrupted from the Latin betulla in just a few centuries that it is almost unrecognisable (just the 'b' and 'l' are shared). It comes from the Old French boulel, itself probably from boudel, which seems to be an inversion of the vowel sounds of betul(la) with 't' becoming 'd'.

The Walloon word is beyôle or bôle.

interesting......northern italian word is biola and/or bedol

bedol, similar to catalan with a single L

[ElHorsto]

I think the Germanic and Balto-Slavic words are cognates (and yes, it's an example of the Centum/Satem split), from a common root *bherg´-.

According to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch , *bherg´ (*bherəg) means "white, bright; to shine". That is a strong hint that the designation of birches was genuine and specific in proto-IE from the beginning, as opposed to a later adapted meaning of a more general or different word for trees, because only birches are white colored trees.

[MOESAN]

I would think so too.

Btw, the French for birch is bouleau, which has been so corrupted from the Latin betulla in just a few centuries that it is almost unrecognisable (just the 'b' and 'l' are shared). It comes from the Old French boulel, itself probably from boudel, which seems to be an inversion of the vowel sounds of betul(la) with 't' becoming 'd'.

The Walloon word is beyôle or bôle.

'bouleau'
for the origin of words you are right -
for the word evolution I think details are different: no inversion of vowels here ('bouleau'):
betul- >> beoul- >> boul- & diminutive suffix '-el' >> '-eau' (masculine)
that does not contradict your global meaning

[ElHorsto]

More translations for 'birch' that seem to be indo-european:

Bengali: Bārca
Gujarati: Bhūrjavr̥kṣa


The basque word 'urki' could have a link to Georgian:

Georgian: arqis

[Selwyn Greenfrith]

List of British tree names...


Sallow
Firn
Whitethorn
Wild
Wayfaring
Withy
Dogwood
Redwood
Quickbeam
Rodenbeam
Whispering tree
Witchbane
Wingnut
Hemlock
Beech
Elm
Larch
Yew
Holly
Birch
Wych
Fir
Ash
Alder
Aspen
Apple
Cherry
Walnut
Blackthorn
Sloe
Plum
Wild
Linden
Lime
Elder
Maple
Fig
Hawthorne
Hazel
Hornbeam
Chestnut
Rowan
Buckthorn
Spindle
Strawberry
Wayfaring
Whitebeam
Mulberry
Heaven
Pear
Box
Chokers


most oft endfasts seem to be:

-thorn(e), -horn, (the build)

-wood, (its worth)

-beam, (the old word for what it straightforwardly is)

-nut, -berry, (as foodstuff)

-bane, (its healing properties)

-tree, (nowadays word for what it straightfordwardly is)

Any thoughts on how it works in Dutch, German, Danish and Norwegian for names of the above trees?

[MOESAN]

I would think so too.

Btw, the French for birch is bouleau, which has been so corrupted from the Latin betulla in just a few centuries that it is almost unrecognisable (just the 'b' and 'l' are shared). It comes from the Old French boulel, itself probably from boudel, which seems to be an inversion of the vowel sounds of betul(la) with 't' becoming 'd'.

The Walloon word is beyôle or bôle.

BOULEAU << BOULEL (-EL diminutive) << BOUL << *BEDOUL/BEDOL considered in France as from vulgar late latin from GAULISH what would make sense as the I-E root wouldn't have given a B- word in italic

[sparkey]

List of British tree names...

You mean English tree names? Or just English names of British trees? Because Welsh names for trees tend to have little overlap with English names for trees, in my experience. And some that you list, like redwoods, aren't native to Britain.

Any thoughts on how it works in Dutch, German, Danish and Norwegian for names of the above trees?

I don't know many of them, and have had to look up most, but I'm finding that a lot of the German names have shared etymology with the English, whether that's due to proto-Germanic connection or later shared naming:

English	German	Connection?
Sallow	Salweide	yes
Fern	Farne	yes
Whitethorn	Weißdorn	yes
Wayfaring tree	Wolliger Schneeball	no
Dogwood	Hartriegel	no
Redwood	Mammutbaum	no
Quickbeam (usually Rowan)	Quickenbaum (usually Mehlbeeren)	yes
Wingnut	Flügelnüsse	yes
Hemlock	Shierling	no
Beech	Buche	yes
Elm	Ulme	yes
Larch	Lärche	yes
Yew	Eibe	yes
Holly	Hülsdorn (usually Stechpalme)	yes
Birch	Birke	yes
Wych	Bergulme	no
Fir	Tanne	no
Ash	Esche	yes
Alder	Erle	yes
Aspen	Espe	yes
Apple	Apfel (or Appel)	yes
Cherry	Kirsche	sort of
Walnut	Walnüsse	yes
Blackthorn (or Sloe)	Schwarzdorn (usually Schlehdorn)	yes

...etc., that's all I have time for now.

[Diurpaneus]

1. I think the Germanic and Balto-Slavic words are cognates (and yes, it's an example of the Centum/Satem split), from a common root *bherg´-. In my opinion the Albanian word "bredh" is also a cognate of this, but the word means 'fir' or 'spruce' instead.



2. back on the topic of birches, there's Albanian "mështekna" and Romanian "mesteacăn".

1.Cognates of Albanian 'bredh'


Romanian 'brad'
meaning 'fir'
Sanskrit 'bhadra[ka]'


http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?s...e&direction=AU



2.Both came from Latin 'mastichinus'[gummy], Sicilian 'mastigona'[piney thistle] is a related word.

[Taranis]

Sparkey, I didn't know that you speak German!

I have a quick addition regarding cherry / Kirsche, this is a borrowing from Latin "cerasium". The English word is almost certainly via French mediation.

[Yetos]

we have 2 trees the Κερανος and the Κερασος.

Κερανος Keranos Ceranos modern Greek κρανια krania (Lat Cornacae)
the red-brown tree known from Homer in Odyssee,
Pausanias also say about the hard wood of the tree.
Theophrastos names the wood as hard as Κερας (horn)
herodotos also about Lycian bow.

so Κερανος means hard as horn-corn wood.

Κερασος kerasos-Cerasos
The home land of Prunus is South Caucas, and enter surely fast in ancient world.

I don't know if the word is from the homeland of cherry tree (S Caucas-minor asia) (I mean S Caucas languages)
But I know that the name is after the city Κερασους (Turkish Giresun) in Pontus black sea
Κερασους means the city at the cape, Keras- Kersos = cape- horn, solid rock soil (modern Gr Xερσος Ηersos)
the Latin Cerasium is after the city Κερασος-ουντος the old city before Pharnakeia, from which cherries spread the 7th century BC all over Europe.

Interesting is that ancient Greek call the cherry also as Βυσσον (bysson = dark red)

Now about the words concerning mastich,
In Greek we see 3 kind of plantation juices.
1 is ρητινη resin mainly the yellow-brown from pinales trees or prunus etc.
2 is υγρα χυμοι all the water like juices
3 is μαστιχη all the white colour juices, like the σχινος Tree (Pistacia) Ιξος Tree (Viscum) κιχωριο-ραδικι (Cichorium)
Mastiche probably has to do with Mastos (woman's Breast-tits) and means the milk of the tree.

probably concerning that many people drink or eat a syrup made by birches we probably speak that gave the name 'Breast-tree' or 'milking tree'
Although last is a think, it is possible that Mastos (breast-tits) and Mastiche may have the same root and meaning,
since the terminology mastiche at least in Greek means the white colour juice (milk) of plants

to be more specific στηθος = breast for men and women,
mastos is only for women. (search etymology of mastitis. mastalgia)
mastiche is the white juice or resin (milk) of plants.

and I like some thoughs of the linguists here for the difference in mammal mimik (kurdi) mastos and Breast and simmilar of The Northen IE.
Does anyone know or can guess the Thracian word for breast?

PS have someone thought that Birch tree might also mean breast tree?

[Sennevini]

Okay, this is a good excercise not only for translating tree names, but also
for learning the more obscure trees in my own language.
Here some Dutch tree names, enjoy:

Sallow - (=Willow) Wilg
Firn - varen
Whitethorn - acacia
Wayfaring - wollige sneeuwbal
Withy - knotwilg
Dogwood - kornoelje
Redwood - ? (this isn't an origianlly European tree)
Rowan - lijsterbes (litt. lark-berry)
Wingnut - vleugelnootboom
Hemlock - scheerling
Beech - beuk
Elm - iep/olm
Larch - lariks/lork
Yew - venijnboom
Holly - hulst
Birch - berk
Fir - spar
Ash - es
Alder - els
Aspen - esp
Apple - appel
Cherry - kers
Walnut - walnoot
Blackthorn - sleedoorn
Sloe - sleedoorn
Plum - pruim
Linden - linde
Lime - limoen
Elder - vlierboom
Maple - esdoorn
Fig - vijg
Hawthorne - meidoorn
Hazel - hazelaar
Hornbeam - haagbeuk
Chestnut - kastanje
Buckthorn - wegedoorn
Spindle - kardinaalsmuts (litt. cardinal's hat)
Strawberry - aardbei
Mulberry - moerbei
Pear - peer (from Latin)
Box - buxus

[Sennevini]

Did I miss the oak?
it is 'eik' in Dutch.

PS have someone thought that Birch tree might also mean breast tree?

This can not be, as breast is from Indo-European *bhreu-,
and birch is from Indo-European *bhreHg/bhrHg, a different root, which
may be more connected to the "bright" color of the birch bark.

[MOESAN]

english	french	breton
		(collective w;)
Oak	chêne	derw
Salow/willow	saule	haleg
Hawthorne	aubépine	spern-gwenn
Alder	aulne	gwern
Birch	bouleau	bezw
Hornbeam	charme	chalm???
Chestnut tree	châtaigner	kistin
Dogwood	cornouiller
Maple	érable
Firn? Fern?	fougère	raden
Strawberry -tree	fraisier	plant-sivi
Ash tree	frêne	onn/oulm-gwenn ???
Beech	hêtre	faou
Holly	houx	kelen
Yew	if	ivin
Horse chesnut tree	marronnier	kistin-Spagn/kistin-moc'h
Larch	mélèze	melwez / gwez-tourmantin
Hazel wood	noisetier	kraoñ-kelvez / knaou-garzh
Walnut tree	noyer	kraoñ-gall
Elm	orme	oulm
Sloe	prunelle	irin
Blackthorn	prunellier	irin
Plum tree	prunier	prun
Fir tree	sapin	sapin/sapr
Rowan tree	sorbier	hiliber
Elder	sureau	skaw
Linden / Lime	tilleul	tilh / oulm-Spagn
Aspen	tremble	kren
most oft endfasts seem to be:	in breton, very often the fruits have the same name
	as the tree they come from – sometimes, people
-thorn(e), -horn, (the build)	put the word gwezenn (sing.) or gwez (coll.)
	before it -
-wood, (its worth)	ex: (Si-Pl) kistinenn / kistin (fruit)
	kistinenn / kistin (tree)
-beam, (the old word for what it straightforwardly is)	gwezenn-gistin / gwez-kistin
-nut, -berry, (as foodstuff)
-bane, (its healing properties)
-tree, (nowadays word for what it straightfordwardly is)
Any thoughts on how it works in Dutch, German, Danish and Norwegian for names of the above trees?

[MOESAN]

érable (maple): breton : 'skaw-gwrac'h'

[sparkey]

Adding Cornish names to Moesan's Breton table out of curiosity, after finding a pretty good compilation of words for trees and hedges in Cornish. It's interesting to see similarities...

English	Cornish	Breton (per Moesan)
Oak	dar	derw
Salow/willow	helagon	haleg
Hawthorne	spern	spern-gwenn
Alder	gwernam	gwern
Birch	bedewen	bezw
Strawberry -tree	seavy	plant-sivi
Ash tree	onnen	onn/oulm-gwenn ???
Holly	kelinan	kelen
Hazel wood	collan	kraoñ-kelvez / knaou-garzh
Elm	elaw (I've also heard elowen which has become a Cornish girl's name)	oulm
Blackthorn	dreyn, drannack, or (probably cognate to Breton) yrynen	irin
Rowan tree	kerdhynen	hiliber
Elder	scawan	skaw
Linden / Lime	kalx	tilh / oulm-Spagn

[MOESAN]

Thanks Sparkey - I saw you used the singular forms (singulatives upon collectives very often) in place of my collective or plural ones - I saw also you used the one of the three cornish spelling that tries to approach the late cornish speakers (terminal speakers); we can see the hesitation for the equivalent of welsh 'yn(n)'/-'en(n)' and breton '-enn' singulatives: this cornish shows '-en'/'-an'/'-on' for the same thing... the two others spellings, more 'scholar like', are simpler, closer to breton and welsh, it is not to say they help better to guess the genuine pronunciation -
as you say, the shared origin is very evident for the most of the names -
I'll try to put welsh tomorrow
nos vad deoc'h!

[MOESAN]

english	breton	welsh
Oak	derw	derw
Salow/willow	haleg	helyg
Hawthorne	spern-gwenn	draen-gwyn
Alder	gwern	gwern
Birch	bezw	beddw
Hornbeam	chalm???	oestrwydd
Chestnut tree	kistin	castan(wydd?)
Dogwood
Maple		masarn /gwniol
Firn? Fern?	raden	rhedyn
Strawberry -tree	plant-sivi	mefis / syfi
Ash tree	onn/oulm-gwenn ???	onn
Beech	faou	ffawydd
Holly	kelen	celyn(n)
Yew	ivin	yw
Horse chesnut tree	kistin-Spagn/kistin-moc'h
Larch	melwez / gwez-tourmantin	llarwydd
Hazel wood	kraoñ-kelvez / knaou-garzh	collen
Walnut tree	kraoñ-gall	cnau Ffrengig
Elm	oulm	llwyf
Sloe	irin	eirin du / draen du
Blackthorn	irin	draen du
Plum tree	prun / irin	eirin
Fir tree	sapin/sapr	ffynidwydd
Rowan tree (mountain ash?)	hiliber	cerddin / pren criafol
Elder	skaw	ysgaw
Linden / Lime	tilh / oulm-Spagn	pisgwydd / palalwyf
Aspen	kren	aethen?

[MOESAN]

ending -wydd in welsh is for -gwydd (treeS), collective for singulative gwyddyn(n) = coeden(n) - breton: gwez/gwezenn