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Thread: Were the Irish pure R1b before the Viking and British invasions ?

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    Post Were the Irish pure R1b before the Viking and British invasions ?

    I have scrutinised FamilyTreeDNA's Ireland Y-DNA Project and noticed that practically all the Irish surnames belonged to haplogroup R1b, while almost all members of other haplogroups had English, Scottish, or occasionally even Welsh surnames.

    The Germanic haplogroup R1b-U106 is also dominated by English and Lowland Scottish surnames, as is to be expected.

    Irish do turn up in some other haplogroups, but represent under 5% of the total. It has been estimated that the number of non-paternity events in most populations ranged from 2 to 15% - depending on how religious or sexually liberated the culture is. An average of 5% was estimated for the United Kingdom by the Institute of Human Genetics in Newcastle.

    The extremely rare R1b1* (P25), a very old branch of R1b thought to date back to the Palaeolithic period (in the Middle East of Central Asia) is virtually absent from Europe, except in Ireland, which has an unusually high frequency of 1% of the population. Interestingly, the surnames are very mixed, with roughly one third of Irish, one third of Scottish and one third of English names. Could it be that this haplogroup found its way to the British Isles as early as the Mesolithic or the Neolithic ?

    Only one haplogroup outside R1b does have more native Irish surnames than imported ones : I2a. There had to be at least one other haplogroup pre-dating the Bronze-age arrival of R1b-P312 in Ireland. It would be almost unthinkable that the entire Neolithic male population of the island was wiped out by the R1b invaders. The most likely candidates were I2a (now called I2a1 in the ISOGG nomenclature), I2b (ISOGG I2a2) and G2a. I2a is the assumed lineage of Mesolithic southern Europeans, I2b of the Mesolithic Central Europeans, and G2a (and E1b1b ?) of the Neolithic farmers.

    One question that was still unresolved is whether the Mesolithic British Isles belonged to I2a, I2b or another type of I ? The other question was how much impact did the G2a (and E1b1b) Neolithic farmers have in the British Isles. I expected that they had a considerable impact in Great Britain, but wasn't so sure about Ireland.

    Out of 51 members of haplogroup G in the project, only four surnames (Lannin, Murphy, McCauley, McQuate) could be considered Irish - although McQuate and McCauley can also be Scottish. The vast majority of I2b members have Germanic names.

    E1b1b is even more extreme, with only 5 native Irish surnames out of 96 members.

    I counted 87 members of I2a (I-P37.2) or I2a1 in the Ireland Y-DNA Project, out of which approximately 30 were clearly non-Irish surnames.

    Based on the modern population, it can be said that the native Irish almost completely lack both G2a and I2b, but have a fair amount of I2a.

    I2a is therefore the only haplogroup aside from R1b to have a majority of Irish surnames. It is enough for me to consider that Ireland before the 9th century was probably exclusively populated by R1b (98%) and I2a (2%) lineages.

    Once we have determined that these are the only ancient Irish haplogroups, we can estimate what was the real genetic impact of the Vikings, Normans, English and Scots on the modern Irish population. The project has 4700 members to this day, out of which 910 belong to other haplogroups than R1b or I2a. Within R1b, roughly 125 members belong to R1b-U106. Considering that R1b-L21 is as common in Britain as R1b-U106, it would be fair to add another 125 members to the count, which is also approximately the number of Germanic surnames turning up in the Irish R1b-L21.

    In total, that is 1160 foreign lineages out of 4700, or 24.7% of the Irish population. This is far more than I expected. But of course that is only paternal lineages, which foreign invaders have surely spread much more abundantly than maternal lineages. I did not calculate the proportion of foreign autosomal DNA in the Irish gene pool, but I would guess between something like 15% (more in Northern Ireland and around Dublin, of course - perhaps over 30%).


    The break-up of Germanic lineages in Ireland is also interesting, because quite different from that of England or Scotland, and much closer to that of Scandinavia. I counted approximately :

    - hg I1 : 250 members (50%)
    - hg R1a : 125 members (25%)
    - hg R1b-U106 : 125 members (25%)

    Nowadays, Sweden comes to closest to these proportions between the three main Germanic haplogroups. The Normans were of Danish origin, though modern Denmark has as much R1b as I1 and R1a combined. It's possible that the Norman nobility had a considerably higher percentage of I1 due to a founder effect. This also appears to be the case in Sicily.

    That would mean that the 12th-century Normans had a remarkably big impact on the modern Irish gene pool - probably much more than the Lowland Scots and the English settlers who came from the 16th century onwards.

    Another possibility is that Norwegian Vikings also had a considerable (and mostly unrecorded) impact on the Irish population. After all, it has been recently estimated that nearly on quarter of the modern Icelandic population carry Irish (or Highland Scottish) Y-DNA, and that the peak of R1b-L21 in Southwest Norway is also due to the import of Gaelic slaves to Norway in Viking times. So it would only be logical that the Norwegian only left a major genetic print on the Irish population. After all, many places in Ireland, including counties (Longford, Waterford, Wexford) have (Anglicised) Viking names.

    If we add hg I2b into the mix, it looks even stranger :

    - hg I1 : 250 members (35%)
    - hg I2b : 225 members (31%)
    - hg R1a : 125 members (17%)
    - hg R1b-U106 : 125 members (17%)

    Where did all that I2b come from ?
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    interesting
    but I have not well understood the calculation for the 125 R1b-L21 attributed to english or germanic origin people - is it based on the respective %s of L21 compared to other R1b in Ireland and England?

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    Really interesting observations, Maciamo, thanks. I'm curious also as to how similar the patterns would be for the Welsh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    One question that was still unresolved is whether the Mesolithic British Isles belonged to I2a, I2b or another type of I ?
    I2a1b2-Isles is usually cited for its age in Ireland, although recent findings have suggested that it probably arrived there 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and bottlenecked to two individuals with modern descendants about 2,500 YBP. So unfortunately, it doesn't tell us a lot about much of anything more ancient than that.

    Some I2a1a could have arrived in Ireland during the Neolithic, particularly I2a1a-Gen, which could have arrived there around 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and is a bit younger than that in terms of TMCRA (but older than the I2a1b2 IIRC). Again, this doesn't say a lot about Mesolithic continuity.

    As for I2 M223+, it's a bit messy but the only one that seems to be worth mentioning is M284+, which is very old in Britain and almost certainly Mesolithic or Neolithic there, and there may be some hope for an ancient presence in Ireland, too. In fact, the greatest outlier (marked as "Gordon") is split between a Gordon family from England and a Dunphy family from Ireland. The "Isles-Scot" branch is also particularly prevalent in Ireland, possibly just as much as in Scotland. So I'd guess that M284+ is the best shot at Mesolithic continuity in Ireland. Ireland also has a lot from the Cont branch, but they seem to be later arrivals. L623+ (Cont2c) is another possibility, as it seems to be ancient in Britain, but it doesn't look Irish at all.

    All said... we're not really sure whether I2a1 or I2a2 was more prevalent in Mesolithic Ireland. But guessing that more modern Irish carry Mesolithic Irish I2a2 than Mesolithic Irish I2a1 is probably correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    interesting
    but I have not well understood the calculation for the 125 R1b-L21 attributed to english or germanic origin people - is it based on the respective %s of L21 compared to other R1b in Ireland and England?
    About half of the R1b England is U106 and the other half L21 (or other P312 subclades). That's why I added similar 125 members of non-Irish origin among the thousands of L21 in the Ireland Project.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I2a1b2-Isles is usually cited for its age in Ireland, although recent findings have suggested that it probably arrived there 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and bottlenecked to two individuals with modern descendants about 2,500 YBP. So unfortunately, it doesn't tell us a lot about much of anything more ancient than that.

    Some I2a1a could have arrived in Ireland during the Neolithic, particularly I2a1a-Gen, which could have arrived there around 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and is a bit younger than that in terms of TMCRA (but older than the I2a1b2 IIRC). Again, this doesn't say a lot about Mesolithic continuity.
    I2a1 was found in early Neolithic France, so I assume it took part to the Atlantic expansion of the Neolithic culture. Ireland was obviously part of the Western European Megalithic culture, so there must have been migrants from the continent spreading the culture to Ireland. Apparently it was a group of I2a1 people, since G2a and E1b1b are virtually absent.

    As for I2 M223+, it's a bit messy but the only one that seems to be worth mentioning is M284+, which is very old in Britain and almost certainly Mesolithic or Neolithic there, and there may be some hope for an ancient presence in Ireland, too. In fact, the greatest outlier (marked as "Gordon") is split between a Gordon family from England and a Dunphy family from Ireland. The "Isles-Scot" branch is also particularly prevalent in Ireland, possibly just as much as in Scotland. So I'd guess that M284+ is the best shot at Mesolithic continuity in Ireland. Ireland also has a lot from the Cont branch, but they seem to be later arrivals. L623+ (Cont2c) is another possibility, as it seems to be ancient in Britain, but it doesn't look Irish at all.

    All said... we're not really sure whether I2a1 or I2a2 was more prevalent in Mesolithic Ireland. But guessing that more modern Irish carry Mesolithic Irish I2a2 than Mesolithic Irish I2a1 is probably correct.
    But I2a2 looks overwhelmingly Germanic in Ireland. It's true that it makes up a tremendous proportion of Germanic haplogroup (see edit above), but over 90% of these surnames are English or Scottish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I2a1b2-Isles is usually cited for its age in Ireland, although recent findings have suggested that it probably arrived there 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and bottlenecked to two individuals with modern descendants about 2,500 YBP. So unfortunately, it doesn't tell us a lot about much of anything more ancient than that.
    Hey Sparkey, could you give me a link to these recent discoveries suggesting that I2a1b2 only arrived in Ireland 6,000 YBP at the earliest? I was under the impression that we were most likely the original post-LGM settlers of the British Isles. I know that it doesn't really matter one way or another, but I always thought that that was kind of cool nonetheless. Oh well, science marches on I suppose. What do you feel the earliest Y-haplogroup in Ireland was, personally?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I2a1 was found in early Neolithic France, so I assume it took part to the Atlantic expansion of the Neolithic culture. Ireland was obviously part of the Western European Megalithic culture, so there must have been migrants from the continent spreading the culture to Ireland. Apparently it was a group of I2a1 people, since G2a and E1b1b are virtually absent.
    It's OK if it's a pretty small group, though, either way. Only a few Irish are I2a1a-Gen (surnames Cullen, Dunn, Healy, O'Donoghue, Crowley, and Carberry at the I2a Project). And like I said before, I2a1b2 badly bottlenecked in Ireland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    But I2a2 looks overwhelmingly Germanic in Ireland. It's true that it makes up a tremendous proportion of Germanic haplogroup (see edit above), but over 90% of these surnames are English or Scottish.
    I think that's because a lot of Irish are on the Cont (mostly Germanic) branch, and among those on the Isles M284+ (anciently British Isles) branch, many came to Ireland much later, with only some, like maybe the Dunphy family, being particularly ancient there.

    Do you see any patterns?:

    Some Irish Cont surnames:
    Alford
    Brown
    Butler
    Carr
    Cloud
    Colfer
    Dougherty
    Ennis
    Galbreath
    Hall
    Hayde
    Hogan
    Humes
    Hunter
    Jackson
    Johnson
    Johnston
    Kelly
    Kilker
    McGoogan
    O'Driscoll
    Patterson
    Pollock
    Rollins
    Russell
    Simpson
    Spearin
    Sterling
    Stewart
    Watson


    Some Irish Isles M284+ surnames:
    Agnew
    Anderson
    Arvin
    Byrne
    Callahan
    Carroll
    Cassidy
    Conners
    Corbett
    Coyle
    Crowley
    Cullen
    Dello
    Diamond
    Dunphy
    Ferguson
    Finucan
    Fraser
    Gillespie
    Griffin
    Gunning
    Hart
    Henry
    Hession
    Jackson
    Kelly
    Kilcoyne
    Lavery
    Lemon
    Lindsey
    Lough
    Malone
    McGimpsey
    McGinnis
    McInerney
    McKeen
    McKinstry
    McManus
    McVay
    McWhaw
    Mullin
    Norrill
    O'Neill
    Quinn
    Rice
    Rogan
    Smyth
    Stewart
    Walsh
    Waters

    Overall, I'm seeing similar patterns as you, with the thought that more I2a1 in Ireland has been there since the Neolithic than I2a2 in Ireland; while the most ancient (that is, possibly Mesolithic) I subclades in Ireland are more likely some rare members of I2a2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keegah View Post
    Hey Sparkey, could you give me a link to these recent discoveries suggesting that I2a1b2 only arrived in Ireland 6,000 YBP at the earliest? I was under the impression that we were most likely the original post-LGM settlers of the British Isles.
    Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if I2a1b2 arrived really early in Ireland... I should reword what I wrote. Modern I2a1b2 Irish clades (C and D in particular) are unlikely to descend from such a group, so modern I2a1b2 Irish are unlikely to descend from the earliest post-LGM settlers in the British Isles. Group B, the eldest, is very likely continental. Yorkie and jdanel have been emphasizing this a lot on this thread, with support from Nordtvedt, apparently. Then, if you look at Nortdvedt's tree, you can see that the C/D branch split from B & Alghaffaar 6,000 YBP. That means that the earliest it could have gotten to Ireland is 6,000 YBP.

    It's possible, of course, that B and Alghaffaar descend from a fellow living in Ireland 6,000 YBP. That isn't ruled out. It just seems less likely than a more central location... I'd guess close to B's founding in northwest continental Europe or even Doggerland. But jdanel has gone so far as to guess Ukraine... so it's still a bit up in the air.

    Either way, C/D are pretty darn early arrivals in Ireland... earlier than R1b, with some certainty. It's just that it may look more Neolithic than Mesolithic now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keegah View Post
    I know that it doesn't really matter one way or another, but I always thought that that was kind of cool nonetheless. Oh well, science marches on I suppose. What do you feel the earliest Y-haplogroup in Ireland was, personally?
    I'd guess I2a2a1 M284+ in terms of surviving haplogroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if I2a1b2 arrived really early in Ireland... I should reword what I wrote. Modern I2a1b2 Irish clades (C and D in particular) are unlikely to descend from such a group, so modern I2a1b2 Irish are unlikely to descend from the earliest post-LGM settlers in the British Isles. Group B, the eldest, is very likely continental. Yorkie and jdanel have been emphasizing this a lot on this thread, with support from Nordtvedt, apparently. Then, if you look at Nortdvedt's tree, you can see that the C/D branch split from B & Alghaffaar 6,000 YBP. That means that the earliest it could have gotten to Ireland is 6,000 YBP.

    It's possible, of course, that B and Alghaffaar descend from a fellow living in Ireland 6,000 YBP. That isn't ruled out. It just seems less likely than a more central location... I'd guess close to B's founding in northwest continental Europe or even Doggerland. But jdanel has gone so far as to guess Ukraine... so it's still a bit up in the air.

    Either way, C/D are pretty darn early arrivals in Ireland... earlier than R1b, with some certainty. It's just that it may look more Neolithic than Mesolithic now.



    I'd guess I2a2a1 M284+ in terms of surviving haplogroups.


    Sparkey,
    You mention me previously. Well, to be honest I've changed my tune about I2a1b2 a little. Much as I respect Nordtvedt, his age estimates are just that- estimates. I've talked to both Bryan Sykes and Peter Forster about the age and origins of L161 I2a1b2 [or 'Isles' as Ken Nordtvedt calls the 9 subclades]. Sykes in particular can see no evidence in terms of substantive dates that suggest I2a1b2 is so old in the isles, i.e, early post-LGM. In fact, both he and Forster see my I2a1b2 signature as most likely Anglo-Saxon in origin, or at least carried to England by that wave of invaders. Nordtvedt sees L161 as founded in northern Germany, so in a sense this might well add up. With regard to the Irish distribution of I2a1b2- perhaps the Belgae play a role here, i.e the Erainn and Fir Bolg. I am really not comfortable with the idea that I2a1b2 is always so ancient.

    This is a tiny clade but all of the subclades-A1, A2 etc have some small presence over the north German plane. When Forster ran my English example of I2a1b2 through his database, the hotspot was actually northern Germany not Ireland.

    Maciamo's point earlier about the Normans being Danish is misleading. The historian, Gwyn Jones ['History of the Vikings'] makes it clear that although Danes formed the bulk of Rollo's band, there were Anglo-Danes from the Danelaw amongst them, some Hiberno-Norse, a few Swedes and a small Norwegian contingent that allegedly settled the Cotentin. Duke William recruited from the whole of northern France with some outliers. The bulk of his invasion force of 1066 were 'native Norman' but these men would not be Scandinavian on all lines due to intermarriage with women of the Gallo-Frankish culture. The second largest contingents were from Flanders and Brittany. Other areas of recruitment were Ile De France, Gascony etc. The invasion force of 1066 was, far from being 'Danish', something of a mixed Celto-Germanic bag- native Normans, Bretons, Flemings, Franks, Gascons etc.


    Maciamo's other point about R1b-U106 being 'Germanic' is also potentially misleading. We might reasonably label U106 as perhaps 'Germanic-leaning' but I'd imagine its ultimate origins are proto-Celtic and it is certainly not effectively absent from Celtic lands as are I1 and R1a1a. A safer bet for a 'Germanic' label in R1b is the rarer, R1b-U198 which is found in small numbers almost exclusively in areas of Anglian settlement in England and in corresponding continental locations.

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    Concerning surnames in Ireland, anyone knows timeline when they were introduced?

    One concern i have is if they were introduced relatively recently, they wont be a very good reference

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    Concerning surnames in Ireland, anyone knows timeline when they were introduced?

    One concern i have is if they were introduced relatively recently, they wont be a very good reference
    Many Irish surnames date at least back to the Norman conquest (12th century), but some clans names (such as O'Connor or O'Brien) go back even deeper in time (although under the Gaelic form, not the modern Anglicised one).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Many Irish surnames date at least back to the Norman conquest (12th century), but some clans names (such as O'Connor or O'Brien) go back even deeper in time (although under the Gaelic form, not the modern Anglicised one).

    I did some quick search, and it seems that oldest surnames in Ireland 12th century were almost exclusively starting with "O'" or "Mac", but still, i think surnames are to much of an variable to be used as sure reference.

    Lets take obvius example for even later period in American history, most Aframs have A-S surnames, but they are not even of European ancestry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Sparkey,
    Maciamo's point earlier about the Normans being Danish is misleading. The historian, Gwyn Jones ['History of the Vikings'] makes it clear that although Danes formed the bulk of Rollo's band, there were Anglo-Danes from the Danelaw amongst them, some Hiberno-Norse, a few Swedes and a small Norwegian contingent that allegedly settled the Cotentin. Duke William recruited from the whole of northern France with some outliers. The bulk of his invasion force of 1066 were 'native Norman' but these men would not be Scandinavian on all lines due to intermarriage with women of the Gallo-Frankish culture. The second largest contingents were from Flanders and Brittany. Other areas of recruitment were Ile De France, Gascony etc. The invasion force of 1066 was, far from being 'Danish', something of a mixed Celto-Germanic bag- native Normans, Bretons, Flemings, Franks, Gascons etc.
    Obviously there were also French people of Gallo-Frankish descent among the Normans. This is especially apparent among the names of members of haplogroup E1b1b in Ireland (such as Fitzgerald, Fleming, French, Joyce, Roche, Rose) and a few J2 (like the ubiquitous Montgomery).

    Maciamo's other point about R1b-U106 being 'Germanic' is also potentially misleading. We might reasonably label U106 as perhaps 'Germanic-leaning' but I'd imagine its ultimate origins are proto-Celtic and it is certainly not effectively absent from Celtic lands as are I1 and R1a1a. A safer bet for a 'Germanic' label in R1b is the rarer, R1b-U198 which is found in small numbers almost exclusively in areas of Anglian settlement in England and in corresponding continental locations.
    I disagree with that. I would say that R1b-U106 is the true Germanic branch, justly because it is closely related to the Proto-Italo-Celtic branch of R1b. Haplogroup I1 and I2a2 are pre-Germanic, because they lived in Europe well before the Indo-European invasions. Germanic languages were probably also influenced by the R1a descendants of the Corded Ware culture, which explains some similarities with Balto-Slavic languages that the Italo-Celtic branch lacks. But Germanic being a Centum branch, it is categorised alongside Italo-Celtic rather than Balto-Slavic. I believe that Germanic culture only started when R1b-U106 moved up from Central Europe to North Germany and Scandinavia and blended with the I1, I2a2 and R1a people they encountered. Prior to that there was an Indo-European culture in the region (Corded Ware), but not one that can be defined as Germanic or Proto-Germanic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    Lets take obvius example for even later period in American history, most Aframs have A-S surnames, but they are not even of European ancestry
    That's a completely different situation. The USA was created with culturally uprooted immigrants from all over the world, who often took English-sounding names to fit in their host society. Nothing like that happened in Ireland.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's a completely different situation. The USA was created with culturally uprooted immigrants from all over the world, who often took English-sounding names to fit in their host society. Nothing like that happened in Ireland.
    Concept is the same, i don't see much difference.

    I am interested of how did you make such conclusion about Ireland, when you can basically take any nation in the world as reference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    It's OK if it's a pretty small group, though, either way. Only a few Irish are I2a1a-Gen (surnames Cullen, Dunn, Healy, O'Donoghue, Crowley, and Carberry at the I2a Project). And like I said before, I2a1b2 badly bottlenecked in Ireland.



    I think that's because a lot of Irish are on the Cont (mostly Germanic) branch, and among those on the Isles M284+ (anciently British Isles) branch, many came to Ireland much later, with only some, like maybe the Dunphy family, being particularly ancient there.

    Do you see any patterns?:

    Overall, I'm seeing similar patterns as you, with the thought that more I2a1 in Ireland has been there since the Neolithic than I2a2 in Ireland; while the most ancient (that is, possibly Mesolithic) I subclades in Ireland are more likely some rare members of I2a2.
    I thought the surnames O'Grady and O'Driscoll turned up in one of the old I2a2 clades.
    Regarding M284, some of that I'd say came from Scotland. I'm one of the names on your M284+ list (I'm I2-L126) and my two closest matches are a Scottish surname which is expected as my clade is called Scots. Planatation aside there has been a lot of back and forth mgrations between Scotland and the North of Ireland.
    One reason that R1b came to dominate might be that enough of it got into powerful gaelic families where males had concubines or a gaelic equivalent and had a lot of children who also went on to do the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inver2b1 View Post
    I thought the surnames O'Grady and O'Driscoll turned up in one of the old I2a2 clades.
    Probably. I just took a random-ish sample, my list isn't complete.

    Quote Originally Posted by inver2b1 View Post
    Regarding M284, some of that I'd say came from Scotland. I'm one of the names on your M284+ list (I'm I2-L126) and my two closest matches are a Scottish surname which is expected as my clade is called Scots. Planatation aside there has been a lot of back and forth mgrations between Scotland and the North of Ireland.
    Agreed. In fact, I2a2a-M284 is interesting in how it's a mix of native Irish, Scottish, and English names. I guess that's evidence of ancient spread across all of those places. Probably, modern Irish carriers of M284+ have a wide range of dates when their patrilineal ancestors came to Ireland... from many years ago (it's still too hard to say when the earliest was) to the modern period. Contrast that to I2a1a-Gen, whose Irish carriers are basically 100% native Irish in their surnames; I2a1b2-Isles, which looks a little more balanced to native Irish to me (although plenty of non-Irish still, it's actually pretty comparable to I2a2a-M284... Yorkie also brings up some good points about I2a1b2); and I2a2a-Cont, which looks to have more English surnames to me. At least, those are the patterns I see. I'd be interested if anybody has better metrics than casually eyeballing the data.

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    There was a book on Scottish DNA out recently and I think they claimed M284 arose in Iberia, it may have been based on a small number of samples from Portugal but some have explained that away due to portugal and britain being military allies in recent history.
    Isn't a problem with a lot of these analysis that it's mainly US samples that are used and in general the testees tend to come form a Isles background?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    About half of the R1b England is U106 and the other half L21 (or other P312 subclades). That's why I added similar 125 members of non-Irish origin among the thousands of L21 in the Ireland Project.
    thanks
    (even if a little bit simplistic: L21 and U106 have statistical results today in England but that doesn't prove ancient ties or origins before arrival in England at old times) -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    I did some quick search, and it seems that oldest surnames in Ireland 12th century were almost exclusively starting with "O'" or "Mac", but still, i think surnames are to much of an variable to be used as sure reference.

    Lets take obvius example for even later period in American history, most Aframs have A-S surnames, but they are not even of European ancestry
    the irish surnames(as hereditary) seam the older ones in western Europe and I think people did not change surnames so easily - (clans, pride...) - the Normans retained their previous names for the most, even if gaelized -
    the case of African slaves in USA is not the same at all -

    &: the subsequent lost of O' and Mac in surnames didn' t change the trunk of the name to drastically I rhink -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    the irish surnames(as hereditary) seam the older ones in western Europe and I think people did not change surnames so easily - (clans, pride...) - the Normans retained their previous names for the most, even if gaelized -
    the case of African slaves in USA is not the same at all -

    &: the subsequent lost of O' and Mac in surnames didn' t change the trunk of the name to drastically I rhink -
    Very interested in what others, particularly those knowledgable about Irish history, have to say about this. My current geneaology efforts - concerning my father's line anyway - hinge on whether we are of Ulster Scot heritage or native Irish heritage. My surname is Lowland Scottish and Northern English, but my ancestors in Ireland seem to have been thoroughly integrated into the native Irish culture. Any input on this from people knowledgable on the subject would be greatly appreciated. Though I understand it would obviously warrant a different topic.

    Also - thanks Sparkey for the reference to M284+. In the process of researching it.

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    Regarding Dunphy, if you search for them (assuming it's the same one) through a website "semargl me" (I haven't enough posts to put up a link) at 37 markers you get matches that seem English (or are some Norman) at a close enough distance to suggest recent migration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inver2b1 View Post
    Regarding Dunphy, if you search for them (assuming it's the same one) through a website "semargl me" (I haven't enough posts to put up a link) at 37 markers you get matches that seem English (or are some Norman) at a close enough distance to suggest recent migration.
    That's interesting. I guess I'm having difficulty finding any particularly ancient (potential for Mesolithic continuity) M284+ in Ireland, then. Just about all of looks to be more recently from England or Scotland. The age of that clade in Britain still suggests to me that there likely was some I2a2a of some sort in Ireland during the Mesolithic, but maybe it all bottlenecked away in Ireland.

    Assuming that Yorkie is also right about I2a1b2, the modern I2 carriers in Ireland whose patrilines have been around in just Ireland (no Britain allowed) for the longest continuous period of time seems to be I2a1a-Gen, represented by surnames like Cullen, Dunn, Healy, O'Donoghue, Crowley, Carberry, and O'Shea. That subclade, as already mentioned, seems to have gotten to the British Isles during the Neolithic. But they represent only about 15-20% of the I2a1 in Ireland, if the proportion of members in the I2a Project is representative.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Some notes on Irish surnames

    Francis J. Byrne in his book "Irish Kings and High Kings" has a pre-chapter about the origin of Irish surnames. Here are some notes from that. Pages xxxiii through xlii.

    Ireland was earlier than other countries in adopting surnames. Even Wales and Scotland, who shared a common culture at that time, were later in adopting them.

    From the time of the earliest Ogham in the 4th century, a gentilic (not familial) form had existed in the form of MOCU followed by a real or imaginary, male or female ancestor. This fell out of favor and was later confused with mac ui or "son of the son of", but this form was never used. There was also a rarely used female form dercu. The prominent families did not use this form.

    Ecclesiastical families were the first to adopt surnames in the 8th century.

    Most royal surnames derive from a 10th century ancestor, but a few may be older. These were the Ua then Ó form.

    The Mac surnames derive from an 11th century ancestor. Mac is really a contraction of Mac meic which means "son of the son of" and is an alternative for grandson. The great MacLochlain family was called Ua Lochlain and even Mac meic Lochlain from the 11th to 12th centuries.

    It was often the case that the grandfather so honored was not really prominent, but that the grandsons had become so. In Ireland, a family had to be successful for three generations to move up in the world, so the grandfather received retroactive elevation.

    Surnames were originally used only by Ecclesiastical, Royal and Bardic families, and then only within the Derbfhine or True Family within the larger. The Derbfhine was the unit of aristocratic rule in Ireland. For royal families, it was composed of all of the male descendants of the great grandfather of the current king. So it include his first and second cousins and assorted uncles.

    Only later did all men take surnames which makes them less useful than would be liked, for tracing ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keegah View Post
    Very interested in what others, particularly those knowledgable about Irish history, have to say about this. My current geneaology efforts - concerning my father's line anyway - hinge on whether we are of Ulster Scot heritage or native Irish heritage. My surname is Lowland Scottish and Northern English, but my ancestors in Ireland seem to have been thoroughly integrated into the native Irish culture. Any input on this from people knowledgable on the subject would be greatly appreciated. Though I understand it would obviously warrant a different topic.

    Also - thanks Sparkey for the reference to M284+. In the process of researching it.
    a try concerning some surnames: waiting the help of somebody with accurate and vaster knowledge
    Irish and British surnames :
    from some books :
    « Normans » common surnames in Ireland :


    BARRY from France via Wales, 1170
    BLAKE from Wales, previously CADDELL, named 'the black', maybe not from France ?
    BROWNE 'le brun' - VII°C.
    BURKE/BOURKE William descendants ; 'de Burgo' – XII°C.
    BUTLER previously FITZWALTER name changed in 1177 ('chief butler' function, french « bouteiller »)
    CUSACK anglo-norman 1211 from french Guienne (Aquitain) origin, gaelicized
    MAC IOSOG (Isaac 's son?)
    DILLON from Brittany but came with the Anglo-Normans
    FITZGERALD 'Maurice son of Gerald' - 1170
    JOYCE from France via Brittain (supposed meaning 'joy')
    LACY from France Lascy in Normandy via Brittain
    NUGENT from France (more than a town)- with Normans via Brittain? XII°C.
    PLUNKETT from France, but arrived via Denmark before the Normans

    POWER 'de paor' ('pauvre = 'poor') from France via Brittain
    ROCHE supposed from Flanders (french speaking area) arrived with the Normans via Wales (Roch Castle)
    TAAFFE from Wales – 1196 (surely with Normans)
    BARRETT from France, with Normans
    COSTELLO(E) branch of Normans NANGLE 'de Angulos' gaelicized as MAC OISDEALBH
    JENNINGS branch of the BURKE
    REDMOND norman origin
    TOBIN french fromBrittany De St Aubyn (Normans)
    WALL norman : De Valle, 'du val'


    WALSH 'welsh', 'britton' : name of a lot of Welshmen that accompagnied the Normans


    for norman origin I think we can put :
    FITZPATRICK, FITZGIBBON, FITZWILLIAM, FITZHUGH, FITZMAURICE, FITZIMMONS... + DESMOND, D'ARCY, REYNOLDS ?


    confusing names :
    COLLINS 1- gaelic O COILEAN ('whelp' or 'young creature') > anglicized
    2- british later immigrant, the surname is common among Scottish people and common enough among Welsh people, from french christian name Colin from grecian Nicolas
    HIGGINS 1- gaelic O hUIGIN ('knowledge') set of the O'NEILLS >> O'HIGGINS
    2- british surname (what geographically distribution ? Some HIGGINSON in Scotland...
    LYNCH 1- (Galway) : norman(where from?)
    2- (Clare, Sligo, Limerick, Donegal) gaelic LABRADH LONGSEACH
    MARTIN 1- french and latin surname become very common surname in Scotland, rarer elsewhere
    2- gaelic MACGIOLLA-MARTIN
    MOORE 1- gaelic O MORDHA ('noble') cognate with the O'MORE
    2- english surname common in England (not so in Wales and Scotland)

    LEE 1- well known english surname

    2- (rare?) gaelic O LAOIDHIGH = 'poetic'
    LYONS 1- french norman origine (town name in Normandy)
    2- english for 'lion' ?
    3- gaelic O LAIGHIN cognate with LEHANE, irish LANE (# english LANE)




    other confusing names :
    KENNEDY 1- gaelic (irish) O CINNEIDE
    2- gaelic scottish clan (but pictish origin?) - gaelic spelling unkown to me -
    CAMPBELL irish and scottish


    scandinave families gaelicized (as in Scotland) :
    BOLAND norwegian (old ! When?) gaelicized O'BOLAN
    DOYLE gaelic 'dubh-gall' ('dark foreigner') – viking – see scottish Dugald, MACDOUGALL, McDOWELL
    possibly :
    (MC)SWEENEY ? Not sure : See scottish gaelic MacSuibhne : MACQUEEN, MCSWEYN viking name Svein-r

    MCAULIFFE see scottish gaelic MacAmhladh : MACAULAY, MCCAULEY – viking Olaf-r



    • some surnames common in Irlande seem of scottish origin (when?) :

    GIBSON, DALTON, HENDERSON, MILLAR, GRAHAM,


    BOYD seams scottish gaelic, as BOYLE (but found too in Ireland)

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