Economy The US and European Economic crisis

[Yetos]

So, Yetos, you would kill most of your ancestors like IE and Macedonians, who at some point came illegally (by force) to Greece. Without them there wouldn't be Greece, there wouldn't be Yetos.

hahahaha

Do you believe the one you call IE (for me is still uncertain if they spoke IE) came with no fight?
do you believe that these people did not shot ? or the before them did not shot them?

Makedonian were Greeks so that was mostly an inner strangle of who will rule? who will be the one 'King'

on the other hand do you know how modern slavery works?

you want to show you videos?

they drop their pappers to sea, they come with no name, and the most exciting is that they pay 3-5000 each to pass borders to modern slave merchants.
did the ones you call IE came that way?

or you believe that the previous people did not shoot them?

do you believe that the previous habitants told them to come? 'you new IE newcomer you are gonna sleep today in my house, we have prepaired meal for you'.
or IE payed slave merchants to drive them?
come on

 

[Templar]

I think that instead of going to other countries, they should try to make their own countries better (be active in protests, vote for politicians that are against corruption, expose corruption, etc). For example I read somewhere that there is more Ethiopian doctors in NYC than in all of Ethiopia, that is insane.

 

[LeBrok]

I think that instead of going to other countries, they should try to make their own countries better (be active in protests, vote for politicians that are against corruption, expose corruption, etc). For example I read somewhere that there is more Ethiopian doctors in NYC than in all of Ethiopia, that is insane.

It works if most all population wants the same thing, like same political and economic system.
What if you want to live in different political and economic system than most of your countrymen? Forget dictator, even in democracy you won't achieve what you want. It is more logical to look for a country you fit the best, instead of being Don Quixote. One can be more productive member of new society, and happier.
Under dictatorships changing political or economic systems is extremely difficult. The stronger dictator the greater the chance of losing one's life, or being tortured and imprisoned for life. Only few are brave enough to protest in these circumstances, and seldom it changes anything. Finally, when revolution hits, like in Middle East these days, the chances of living in democratic and well-off country is minimal. It will take another generation or two for the things to improve, given the right conditions.

In many countries the doors are kicked wide open and people are spilling around the planet. It's time for EU to get real and address illegal emigration, or the problem will get even bigger in next few years, the conditions are ripe for it. Life on Social Services in Europe is still much better, even in recession, than working in Egypt for one dollar a day, like most do over there.

 

[Templar]

Under dictatorships changing political or economic systems is extremely difficult. The stronger dictator the greater the chance of losing one's life, or being tortured and imprisoned for life. Only few are brave enough to protest in these circumstances, and seldom it changes anything.

Abandoning your country just seems like a very cowardly and disloyal move to me. Every country's people are reaping the fruits of their ancestors' labor, it is one's duty to continue the process. If noone is willing to risk themselves for the greater good, then no progressive change is possible. I can understand if someone immigrates to avoid genocide or because they are trying to get wealth in a First World country which they can then use to help their homeland, but if you immigrate SOLELY to improve ONLY your life, that is selfish beyond belief.

 

[LeBrok]

Abandoning your country just seems like a very cowardly and disloyal move to me.

If noone is willing to risk themselves for the greater good, then no progressive change is possible

In first sentence you condemned most successful countries of 20th century, built on emigration, Australia, Canada, USA, New Zealand. How should we put it "Countries of cowards"? Though countries of emigrants, they proved your second sentence wrong, as they seamed to be ones of most progressive in the world.
We should mentioned that no matter where we are, we always work for greater good, for society good, we never live alone.

I'm sure there are some people that would make even more constrictive argument than yours. Does it make us cowards and disloyal, if we "emigrate" from a village or city where we were born? Shouldn't we stay in a village where ancestral labor is?
Should we be loyal to the blind faith giving us place to live on earth?

Every country's people are reaping the fruits of their ancestors' labor, it is one's duty to continue the process.

On other hand, our ancestors ruined our countries as well on many occasions, leaving no benefits for future generations. They were disloyal too, forsaking religion of our ancestors for Christianity or Muslim, or cowardly leaving their ancestors' lands(because of foreign invasions from east), attacking people and taking their lands, creating new nation in the process. It's good to be faithful on many occasions, but it is also wise to see how the world works, and not to be led like sheep to the slaughterhouse.

I can understand if someone immigrates to avoid genocide or because they are trying to get wealth in a First World country which they can then use to help their homeland, but if you immigrate SOLELY to improve ONLY your life, that is selfish beyond belief.

It is rarely the case, because most of us live in families, the smallest group unit. Improving once life improves whole family life too. It is very natural process; offspring and their survival is what counts in nature. This is what is left, the part of your DNA, long after your are gone. After good few generations nobody will remember your name, your religion, your language and your way of life. Do you know your grand, grand, grand, grand mother? (to be precise all 16 of them , and 16 ggggand fathers)

Summing it up, what emigrants are doing now, is exactly what your ancestors did, at least the once who introduced the biggest changes to your country/nation. They moved from place to place, they changed religion and culture, they lost and screwed up on many occasions too. Even if you feel a proud Bosnian, you are a descendant of emigrants, as we all are.

 

[Templar]

In first sentence you condemned most successful countries of 20th century, build on emigration, Australia, Canada, USA, New Zealand. How should we put it "Countries of cowards"? Though countries of emigrants, they proved your second sentence wrong, as they seamed to be ones of most progressive in the world.

LeBrok, I am talking about it in terms of modern times, and I think you also misunderstood my motives and train of thought. Canada and the US were extremely underpopulated due to diseases killing a majority of the native population, but this is a whole different issue entirely. Also keep in mind that during the 17th and 18th centuries peasants had very few rights and very little political/military strength. In modern times, in MOST countries, a united populist front can do truly amazing things. Look at how Castro arrived with only 100 soldiers to Cuba, 90 of them died, but the 10 that survived infiltrated the eastern part of the island and spread their revolutionary views among the disenfranchised masses. After only a few months, they had a huge army behind him, and he successfully created one of the most developed countries in the region (I am not advocating communism, I am just using this as an example of what a populist movement can accomplish with enough effort).

It is rarely the case, because most of us live in families, the smallest group unit. Improving once life improves whole family life too. It is very natural process; offspring and their survival is what counts in nature. This is what is left, the part of your DNA, long after your are gone. After good few generations nobody will remember your name, your religion, your language and your way of life. Do you know your grand, grand, grand, grand mother? (to be precise all 16 of them , and 16 ggggand fathers)

Summing it up, what emigrants are doing now, is exactly what your ancestors did, at least the once who introduced the biggest changes to your country/nation. They moved from place to place, they changed religion and culture, they lost and screwed up on many occasions too. Even if you feel a proud Bosnian, you are a descendant of emigrants, as we all are.

I am not trying to seem super-nationalist (even though my avatar pic seems to create the image that I am) I am looking at it from an utilitarian perspective. If you are a well-educated "third-worlder" and you decide to stay in your country to help improve it, then you are developing a country that is in need of people such as yourself to launch forward a new wave of progress. If you instead immigrate to an already developed country, then: you aren't helping people who need the most help, you are creating resentment by going to a place where the culture/religion/language is different from your own, and you are helping create a greater imbalance between developed and developing countries.

 

[kamani]

In modern times, in MOST countries, a united populist front can do truly amazing things.

amazing yes, good maybe not, that's how all dictatorships have started in modern times. Most under-developed countries nowadays enter a cycle of dictatorship -> chaos -> another dictatorship. Nationalism has become just another tool in the hands of the powerful.

 

[Templar]

amazing yes, good maybe not, that's how all dictatorships have started in modern times. Most under-developed countries nowadays enter a cycle of dictatorship -> chaos -> another dictatorship. Nationalism has become just another tool in the hands of the powerful.

That is only because the movement ends up being hijacked by greedy bastards.

 

[Boss]

That is only because the movement ends up being hijacked by greedy bastards.

Perhaps it is that nationalism by its very nature attracts wicked people. Or, worse, it may even be that nationalism creates wicked people. Of course, it clearly depends on what one means when one says that he is a nationalist. E.g., in some ways, I am a nationalist. That is, I am not in favour of any internationalist revolution and I do think that the nation state can not at present be replaced by anything else. But I do not think that simply being a member of a nation should confer upon you all kinds of goodies at the expense of outsiders. That is because I think that the circumstances of one's birth should not affect life outcomes in a magnificent way. Where you are born today is the single most important factor that determines your life outcomes. Forget about class, ethnicity, IQ, etc. The exclusionary nature of nationality is far and away the most important reason for why some people are poor, unhealthy, uneducated whist others rich, healthy and educated without the latter being more virtuous or intelligent or whatever (bus drivers in Denmark for example earn 5+ times what bus drivers earn in India without them being any better drivers. The only reason for the wage differential is that they are citizens of Denmark). So maybe nationalism is not evil itself but it will inevitably attract people who do not care about fairness or justice (or even truth). And if they do, they are going think that these values are not as important as jingoistic, irrational tribalism.

 

[Templar]

Perhaps it is that nationalism by its very nature attracts wicked people. Or, worse, it may even be that nationalism creates wicked people. Of course, it clearly depends on what one means when one says that he is a nationalist. E.g., in some ways, I am a nationalist. That is, I am not in favour of any internationalist revolution and I do think that the nation state can not at present be replaced by anything else. But I do not think that simply being a member of a nation should confer upon you all kinds of goodies at the expense of outsiders. That is because I think that the circumstances of one's birth should not affect life outcomes in a magnificent way. Where you are born today is the single most important factor that determines your life outcomes. Forget about class, ethnicity, IQ, etc. The exclusionary nature of nationality is far and away the most important reason for why some people are poor, unhealthy, uneducated whist others rich, healthy and educated without the latter being more virtuous or intelligent or whatever (bus drivers in Denmark for example earn 5+ times what bus drivers earn in India without them being any better drivers. The only reason for the wage differential is that they are citizens of Denmark). So maybe nationalism is not evil itself but it will inevitably attract people who do not care about fairness or justice (or even truth). And if they do, they are going think that these values are not as important as jingoistic, irrational tribalism.

Basically selfishness is the root cause of nationalism gone wrong. But the kind of nationalism that I am talking about is having a sense of duty to help improve the country of your birth. Simply leaving an impoverished country doesn't solve the problem. You have to be a "man" and tackle the issues head on.

 

[kamani]

Basically selfishness is the root cause of nationalism gone wrong. But the kind of nationalism that I am talking about is having a sense of duty to help improve the country of your birth. Simply leaving an impoverished country doesn't solve the problem. You have to be a "man" and tackle the issues head on.

The "citizen hero" mentality becomes sort of a joke in some of these rundown overcrowded countries where the individual is pretty much fighting hard to stay alive. For example in india the buses never stop, you have to jump off the bus if you want to get off. In the philiphines, it is common in case of an accident for the driver to back-up into the victim to make sure they're dead, so that they don't have to pay for damages. You can't go in places like that and be altruistic and think of the greater good, people will simply take whatever you give them and ungratefully continue in their ways. Hence, extremely authoritarian societies and poverty go hand in hand.

 

[Templar]

The "citizen hero" mentality becomes sort of a joke in some of these rundown overcrowded countries where the individual is pretty much fighting hard to stay alive. For example in india the buses never stop, you have to jump off the bus if you want to get off. In the philiphines, it is common in case of an accident for the driver to back-up into the victim to make sure they're dead, so that they don't have to pay for damages. You can't go in places like that and be altruistic and think of the greater good, people will simply take whatever you give them and ungratefully continue in their ways. Hence, extremely authoritarian societies and poverty go hand in hand.

I think you are being way too pessimistic. You just gotta find link-minded individuals and then proceed to create organization, clubs, movements, etc.

 

[LeBrok]

I think you are being way too pessimistic. You just gotta find link-minded individuals and then proceed to create organization, clubs, movements, etc.

Look at how Castro arrived with only 100 soldiers to Cuba, 90 of them died, but the 10 that survived infiltrated the eastern part of the island and spread their revolutionary views among the disenfranchised masses. After only a few months, they had a huge army behind him, and he successfully created one of the most developed countries in the region

That's actually a good example how your well meaning efforts and life scarifice could be totally wasted. Castro changed one dictatorship for his dictatorship and communist party members became new oligarchy with more rights and privileges than masses they were fighting for. They have closed the borders and didn't even let the unhappy citizens go in pursuit of better fitted place. Talking about complete enslavement of population. Communists actually were masters of making people work and die for their cause the "greater good". Who is against, dies in labor camps.

he successfully created one of the most developed countries in the region

The region consists and consisted of other communist regimes or feudal oligarchies. Not exactly a steep competition in this backward part of the world. After 60 years of Castro, there is still severe shortage of everyday goods and food in particular. Imagine this, shortage of food when the climate allows you to grow food all year round. This shows you pretty much how efficient Castro-communism is to produce things.

 

[Templar]

That's actually a good example how your well meaning efforts and life scarifice could be totally wasted. Castro changed one dictatorship for his dictatorship and communist party members became new oligarchy with more rights and privileges than masses they were fighting for. They have closed the borders and didn't even let the unhappy citizens go in pursuit of better fitted place. Talking about complete enslavement of population. Communists actually were masters of making people work and die for their cause the "greater good". Who is against, dies in labor camps.The region consists and consisted of other communist regimes or feudal oligarchies. Not exactly a steep competition in this backward part of the world. After 60 years of Castro, there is still severe shortage of everyday goods and food in particular. Imagine this, shortage of food when the climate allows you to grow food all year round. This shows you pretty much how efficient Castro-communism is to produce things.

I think the US trade embargo has a lot to do with Cuba's economic woes. The best possible trading partner is right next to you, yet you cannot trade with him, that is quite a liability. Cuba IS developed, it has a very high rate of doctors which are world-class. The Venezuelan president himself is being treated in Cuba. Anyways as bad as communism might sometimes seem, it is hell of a lot better than fascism and military dictatorships. Going back to my general point, don't you think brain-drain immigration does more bad than good when looked at from a global perspective? By the way, Canada is one of the best examples of a brain-drain magnet. Anyways we disagree on this lets just leave it at that and respect each other opinion

 

[Yetos]

That's actually a good example how your well meaning efforts and life scarifice could be totally wasted. Castro changed one dictatorship for his dictatorship and communist party members became new oligarchy with more rights and privileges than masses they were fighting for. They have closed the borders and didn't even let the unhappy citizens go in pursuit of better fitted place. Talking about complete enslavement of population. Communists actually were masters of making people work and die for their cause the "greater good". Who is against, dies in labor camps.The region consists and consisted of other communist regimes or feudal oligarchies. Not exactly a steep competition in this backward part of the world. After 60 years of Castro, there is still severe shortage of everyday goods and food in particular. Imagine this, shortage of food when the climate allows you to grow food all year round. This shows you pretty much how efficient Castro-communism is to produce things.

I am not going to support Castro, 99% of communistic countries are governed by by a nomen class a dictaorship of a party that always 'knows' !!! what is good for me. but was it better before? when sugar plantations belong all to USAers? was it better when Cuban people were shot for fun, or lived in straw cabines? did you prefer the law of first night at your marriage? in Bolivia and south America still use airplanes to spread Farming medicines, how will you feel if they spread DDT with airplanes outside your city in Canada? we are living the days of Madness, we are argueing and sometimes we even fight (civil wars) for Capitalism or Communism, and we deny to see the truth, we sold our souls for a bottle of cola. just go back and see your video you posted us about how Banksters system became strong. some people died believing for freedom or country, but they died for bankers'. soon another big eye, not that of Egyptian Chorros is going to watch what i write, I buy, I eat, etc we are consuming Nitric and Choric Ammoniun (Νιτρικο και χλωριουχο αμμωνιο) to find some taste in our foods.

 

[LeBrok]

I think the US trade embargo has a lot to do with Cuba's economic woes. The best possible trading partner is right next to you, yet you cannot trade with him, that is quite a liability.

Less than you expect. The real problem of Cuba, also the rest of communist countries, was failure to produce. You need to produce to be able to exchange your goods for other country's goods, or simply produce things for your own citizens.

Cuba IS developed,

No it's not, and it is not my opinion, by all economic standards it is a developing country.

it has a very high rate of doctors which are world-class.

Without modern equipment, and training on it, you can't have world-class doctors. Cuba, as many countries of communist block, produced many doctors, but hospitals were poorly equipped and lacked even basic medications (again a failure of economy and production). If you go to Cuba on vacation, make sure you don't get sick! And bring dollars in case you happened to be sick, so you can buy medication in special stores that sell western medication and other goods for dollars (oh yes, Castro knows how to suck the green bucks from the population). Far from the reach of poor locals, that's the Cuban reality.

The Venezuelan president himself is being treated in Cuba.

Let's not kid ourselves, he is in hospital for Cuban elite, the rest of hospitals are in disrepair and without medication. Even best doctors can't do much in these circumstances.

Anyways as bad as communism might sometimes seem, it is hell of a lot better than fascism and military dictatorships.

You can't put everything in one bag. Communism in Stalin edition was much worst than Franco or Mussolini's fascism. Castro's communism is milder than N. Korea's, and so on.

Going back to my general point, don't you think brain-drain immigration does more bad than good when looked at from a global perspective? By the way, Canada is one of the best examples of a brain-drain magnet.

It's good for Canada, and it's bad for South Africa for example. It should actually tell some countries to get their act together and first of all improve their economic situation. Otherwise smart people will always fly away. You can't just tell people "wait 50-100 years and things will improve". Smart people are very mobile these days, you can't keep them by force. Well, Cuba is trying, but people will risk their lives to get out. You don't see Americans escaping to Cuba, but thousands Cubans escape (or trying, because you just can't travel freely if you Cuban) every year. It should tell you something how "developed" Cuba is.

Anyways we disagree on this lets just leave it at that and respect each other opinion

No hard feelings here, I just love talking.

 

[LeBrok]

I am not going to support Castro, 99% of communistic countries are governed by by a nomen class a dictaorship of a party that always 'knows' !!! what is good for me. but was it better before? when sugar plantations belong all to USAers? was it better when Cuban people were shot for fun, or lived in straw cabines? did you prefer the law of first night at your marriage? in Bolivia and south America still use airplanes to spread Farming medicines, how will you feel if they spread DDT with airplanes outside your city in Canada? we are living the days of Madness, we are argueing and sometimes we even fight (civil wars) for Capitalism or Communism, and we deny to see the truth, we sold our souls for a bottle of cola. just go back and see your video you posted us about how Banksters system became strong. some people died believing for freedom or country, but they died for bankers'. soon another big eye, not that of Egyptian Chorros is going to watch what i write, I buy, I eat, etc we are consuming Nitric and Choric Ammoniun (Νιτρικο και χλωριουχο αμμωνιο) to find some taste in our foods.

lol Yetos put some happy glasses from time to time. Stress kills, you know.I have to mention again that you see things as black and white only, and this is what obstructs your understanding of the world. Life is always about a good balance, moderation. Don't overdose but also don't avoid everything in panic. The moderation and sometimes picking the lesser bad (in absence of good) is the key to health, either in economy or your own.I admit that even communism wasn't totally bad, it actually produced very educated, egalitarian (well, at least was teaching) societies,...but it failed to give them work and good money for it.You agree that water is a good thing, right? But if you drink 20 liters a day for couple of days it will kill you! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxicationThere is good cholesterol and bad cholesterol, we have them both, but the healthy people have a good balance between them two.Is capitalism good and socialism bad? What we discovered is that the happiest societies have good balance between them. Good capitalist productivity, but also good social support and services.Same is with banking. It's neither totally good or bad. As water for humans, banking is for economy. If you overdose it, it will be toxic. In moderation it is a vital part of our economy and way of life.But remember, even good things will kill you when overdosed.PS. Actually DDT is a good example of overdosing. In 50-60s we didn't know how to use it and sprayed way too much. DDT is still used today in many African countries, sprayed inside houses (but in way smaller quantities) to keeps bugs away. One quick (invisible to the eye, nothing like the clouds of DDT on documentaries from 60s) spraying keeps mosquitoes and malaria away for 6 months, not mentioning other bugs. When you use it right it is as good as miracle.

 

[kamani]

This talk reminds me of a quote from the movie Avatar: "They're not gonna give up their home. They're not gonna make a deal. For-for what? A light beer and blue jeans? There's nothing that we have that they want. Everything they sent me out here to do is a waste of time. They're never gonna leave Hometree." A lot of these colonized countries have sold their stupid souls for a pair of blue jeans. They would probably be better of eating berries and living in the forest. Some of these people don't even have the genetics to compete in a modern world.

 

[Yetos]

lol Yetos put some happy glasses from time to time. Stress kills, you know.I have to mention again that you see things as black and white only, and this is what obstructs your understanding of the world. Life is always about a good balance, moderation. Don't overdose but also don't avoid everything in panic. The moderation and sometimes picking the lesser bad (in absence of good) is the key to health, either in economy or your own.I admit that even communism wasn't totally bad, it actually produced very educated, egalitarian (well, at least was teaching) societies,...but it failed to give them work and good money for it.You agree that water is a good thing, right? But if you drink 20 liters a day for couple of days it will kill you! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxicationThere is good cholesterol and bad cholesterol, we have them both, but the healthy people have a good balance between them two.Is capitalism good and socialism bad? What we discovered is that the happiest societies have good balance between them. Good capitalist productivity, but also good social support and services.Same is with banking. It's neither totally good or bad. As water for humans, banking is for economy. If you overdose it, it will be toxic. In moderation it is a vital part of our economy and way of life.But remember, even good things will kill you when overdosed.PS. Actually DDT is a good example of overdosing. In 50-60s we didn't know how to use it and sprayed way too much. DDT is still used today in many African countries, sprayed inside houses (but in way smaller quantities) to keeps bugs away. One quick (invisible to the eye, nothing like the clouds of DDT on documentaries from 60s) spraying keeps mosquitoes and malaria away for 6 months, not mentioning other bugs. When you use it right it is as good as miracle.

I am stunned, did you say that even Communism was not that bad? is it you Le brok? well in some areas was a must, a need, but when stays decades becomes an enemy, creates a nomen class, becomes an elite, same with bankgsters, they become elite, and they do not pay, they ask more tax, and more work, and more sacrifices from simple people, so they become a nomen class, and illegal immigration is a good tool-weapon to their hands, it works like that, about DDT if is as you say then why it is forbidenn in Europe, North America etc, DDT is a poison that act as sum, never reduced, only added, but is cheap, very cheap. that is why still in use, DDT even kills storks, by reducing their ability to absorve calcium for eggs, Toronto is considered as one the most ECO cities, a fantastic system of recycle and save money, and produce with low cost to enviroment, until today one of the best, how about spread that little DDT, how will you feel and how will you react? told you we are living the days of madness. in small quantities is good for Africa, but forbitten in Europe, N America etc? and what about some other not even searched chemicals, Αμιαντος (kind of asbestos) in 50's till 80's was in general use, it was a cheap matterial, with some special abilities like ant-iheat, no burning, light weight, most of houses had that matterial, bank and industry become rich, but today we know that Amiantos is no 1 reason for cancer of pneumons. from 1990's the usage of amiantos is forbiden as building matterials. but how many had cancer? did the bank or the industries that was supporting ever pay one 1 E for help of pneumons cancer? they earned unknown money, did they change that matterial from houses? answer is NO they sell a cheap, full of death matterial, they become rich, and they pay not even a penny, to remove that from houses or to help cancer cure. and finnaly comes the state, that 'eats' the deposits of health for the shake of Bankers, Salomi's dance. told you, days of madness,

 

[Yetos]

This talk reminds me of a quote from the movie Avatar: "They're not gonna give up their home. They're not gonna make a deal. For-for what? A light beer and blue jeans? There's nothing that we have that they want. Everything they sent me out here to do is a waste of time. They're never gonna leave Hometree." A lot of these colonized countries have sold their stupid souls for a pair of blue jeans. They would probably be better of eating berries and living in the forest. Some of these people don't even have the genetics to compete in a modern world.

yet the strange is that these societies kept a rule, for example, Muslim countries, they drink cola and wear jeans and watch TV but they never eat pork !!!!!! India, they drive cars, but outside Delhi a cow has priority in the road, Pensylvania Amish Quakers etc, are the ones that kept a rule in western world, they still live in another season, with horses and chariots in 2013 USA, the rest just kept a custom, at a seasoning.