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Thread: Pre Indo European languages in Europe

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    Pre Indo European languages in Europe



    To understand the IE languages expansion, we might need to study pre-IE languages in Europe. The best candidate pre-IE language is basque since it is still spoken today. Another pre-IE population in europe are the pelasgians, the earliest known inhabitants of the balkans. So my attempt is to compare pelasgian and basque. Since we don't know much about pelasgian, I am making an assumption that we will find traces of it in modern albanian. After digging in online dictionaries for about 1/2 hour, I think I found some suprising similarities.

    dog - txakur, zakur (basque) - zagar (albanian)
    mountain - mendi(basque) - mali(albanian)
    forest - pinudi (basque) - pylli (albanian)
    nut - intxaur (basque) - arre (albanian)
    soldier - gudari (basque) - ushtari (albanian)

    If I am on the right track with this, this would mean that Basque is the survivor of a family of languages that once were used in most of Europe. Since the basque people are 88% R1b, and many scientists claim that R1b has been in europe before the bronze age and IE-languages expansion, the whole R1a+R1b expansion in Europe with IE-languages seems flawed. Which would mean that we don't really have a model how the IE languages expanded in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    To understand the IE languages expansion, we might need to study pre-IE languages in Europe. The best candidate pre-IE language is basque since it is still spoken today. Another pre-IE population in europe are the pelasgians, the earliest known inhabitants of the balkans. So my attempt is to compare pelasgian and basque. Since we don't know much about pelasgian, I am making an assumption that we will find traces of it in modern albanian.
    I have my doubts about the validity of the very concept of "Pelasgian" (that is, a common pre-IE language on the Balkans), and honestly I find any connections of "Pelasgian" with Albanian spurious. By the original meaning (how the Greeks used the word), it either refered to the ancestors of the Greeks or to the first people that lived in Greece before the Greeks (which may not be mutually exclusive). In the linguistic sense, it may make sense to dubb the Pre-Greek substrate "Pelasgian", but it's an unfortunate term since there certainly was not "one" Pelasgian language but several: Greek has borrowings from Anatolian (Luwic), Semitic and very probably also the as-of-yet-undeciphered Minoan language. You might talk about 'Pelasgian languages' (plural), but considering how they were obviously not related with each other, this seems without purpose. If the "Pelasgian" hypothesis in the sense of a common Balkans pre-IE substrate was correct, we would expect a common substrate found in both Greek and Albanian, but I haven't seen a convincing example of this yet.

    Independent of this, it's possible (and probable) that there are pre-IE substrate words in Albanian, but there is no connection what so ever with the so-called 'Pelasgians'.

    So let's see...

    After digging in online dictionaries for about 1/2 hour, I think I found some suprising similarities.

    dog - txakur, zakur (basque) - zagar (albanian)
    mountain - mendi(basque) - mali(albanian)
    forest - pinudi (basque) - pylli (albanian)
    nut - intxaur (basque) - arre (albanian)
    soldier - gudari (basque) - ushtari (albanian)
    I don't want to discourage you (rather the opposite), but to me, I'm afraid, most of the words look only superficially similar:

    - "mendi" requires an earlier *bendi.

    - "pinudi" is very probably a Latin loanword, from Latin "pinetum" (grove).

    - "intxaur" ("walnut") is probably a compound word - see "hur" ("hazelnut").

    - "gudari" is a compound word, derived from "gudu" ("battle"). It is formed in a similar way as for instance "edan" (to drink) > edari (beverage). Albanian "ushtri" is usually thought to be derived from Latin "hostis" - in any case the two words look not particularly similar to me.

    On the flip side, I have noticed these two peculiar words which have no parallel outside Albanian:

    - "hekur" (iron)
    - "xeheror" (ore, mineral)

    If I am on the right track with this, this would mean that Basque is the survivor of a family of languages that once were used in most of Europe. Since the basque people are 88% R1b, and many scientists claim that R1b has been in europe before the bronze age and IE-languages expansion, the whole R1a+R1b expansion in Europe with IE-languages seems flawed. Which would mean that we don't really have a model how the IE languages expanded in Europe.
    That's a lot of assumptions. The oldest find of R1b thus far comes from a Beaker-Bell site in Germany, but it's absent from the various Neolithic sites in western and central Europe - in so far I find the evidence for a founder effect in western Europe quite compelling. If R1b was anywhere in Europe before, it would have been the Balkans (L23 cluster on the Balkans, which is sitting outside of Western Europe L51, however). I'm also not very convinced on the Basque-R1b connection, it's also possible that the Basques were formerly predominantly I2-M26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    To understand the IE languages expansion, we might need to study pre-IE languages in Europe. The best candidate pre-IE language is basque since it is still spoken today.
    I agree. I am currently working on Basque and trying to find connections between Basque and its neighbouring languages (Gaulish, French, Breton, and Spanish) and see which features connected with Basque could be substratic. I have already a few ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Another pre-IE population in europe are the pelasgians, the earliest known inhabitants of the balkans. So my attempt is to compare pelasgian and basque. Since we don't know much about pelasgian, I am making an assumption that we will find traces of it in modern albanian. After digging in online dictionaries for about 1/2 hour, I think I found some suprising similarities.

    dog - txakur, zakur (basque) - zagar (albanian)
    mountain - mendi(basque) - mali(albanian)
    forest - pinudi (basque) - pylli (albanian)
    nut - intxaur (basque) - arre (albanian)
    soldier - gudari (basque) - ushtari (albanian)
    Excellent. The zakur/zagar especially is really puzzling.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    If I am on the right track with this, this would mean that Basque is the survivor of a family of languages that once were used in most of Europe. Since the basque people are 88% R1b, and many scientists claim that R1b has been in europe before the bronze age and IE-languages expansion, the whole R1a+R1b expansion in Europe with IE-languages seems flawed. Which would mean that we don't really have a model how the IE languages expanded in Europe.
    This is Venneman's hypothesis too. I am not sure what to think about that. I agree with you for the R1b. LeBrok suggested different waves of R1b penetration into Europe (attested by their haplogroups), that one being pre-IE and some others being IE.

    From a linguistic point of view, I think that Venneman (and you as well) rely too much on languages known to us today. How much prehistorical languages disappeared, about which we know nothing ? The idea of Basque-speaking Europe, does not look realistic to me. As for the PIE warriors, we have a tendency to oversimplify situations which were certainly very complex. But this is only a feeling.

    In any case, your idea about working the Albanian dictionary and compare it to Basque is very interesting. Did you think about Etruscan too ? I will start working on Etruscan in a few days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentel View Post
    I agree. I am currently working on Basque and trying to find connections between Basque and its neighbouring languages (Gaulish, French, Breton, and Spanish) and see which features connected with Basque could be substratic. I have already a few ideas.



    Excellent. The zakur/zagar especially is really puzzling.



    This is Venneman's hypothesis too. I am not sure what to think about that. I agree with you for the R1b. LeBrok suggested different waves of R1b penetration into Europe (attested by their haplogroups), that one being pre-IE and some others being IE.

    From a linguistic point of view, I think that Venneman (and you as well) rely too much on languages known to us today. How much prehistorical languages disappeared, about which we know nothing ? The idea of Basque-speaking Europe, does not look realistic to me. As for the PIE warriors, we have a tendency to oversimplify situations which were certainly very complex. But this is only a feeling.

    In any case, your idea about working the Albanian dictionary and compare it to Basque is very interesting. Did you think about Etruscan too ? I will start working on Etruscan in a few days.
    I think (for now) too that Y-R1b was introduced 2 times in Europe, BUT the obstacle is that the most of western european ligneages seam not too old and being cognates of a same little number of upstream ancestors living between N-Italy, E-France and SW-Germany at some stage - W-Europe for me does not show an important dicotomy - I believe the 2 streams and different occurrences of R1b would be around Balkans and Greece...
    hard to prove - the datation of the W-European first ancestors arriving is not so easy to do and so their affiliation to an I-E or a pre-I-E wave - we lack more ancient DNA studies about Meso-Neolithic-Bronze ages transition -

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    I agree with a lot of the points you make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kentel View Post
    The idea of Basque-speaking Europe, does not look realistic to me. As for the PIE warriors, we have a tendency to oversimplify situations which were certainly very complex. But this is only a feeling.
    I think just like the IE language family took over europe, a pre-IE language family might have taken over parts of europe before it. Basque was part of that family. Genetically these pre-IE people were also considerably R1b (disputable), which breaks the whole R1b-IE exclusive connection and complicates things more. In any case I believe the IE family came from only one of the neolithic R-cultures of east-europe/west-asia; the one that became the most advanced militarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kentel View Post
    In any case, your idea about working the Albanian dictionary and compare it to Basque is very interesting. Did you think about Etruscan too ? I will start working on Etruscan in a few days.
    since Etruria is in between albania and spain, it is a candidate for finding simmilarities.
    The difficulty with etruscan is that it probably has heavily influenced latin, and latin has
    influenced everything else (not to mention spanish). So now it is hard to tell what part of latin is pre-IE etruscan. Also, etruscan is also considered IE by many, which leaves us with pre-etruscan as a pre-IE candidate :).

    Some info about etruscan from wikipedia:
    "Complex consonant clusters
    Speech featured a heavy stress on the first syllable of a word, causing syncopation by weakening of the remaining vowels, which then were not represented in writing: Alcsntre for Alexandros, Rasna for Rasena.[25] This speech habit is one explanation of the Etruscan "impossible consonant clusters." The resonants, however, may have been syllabic, accounting for some of the clusters (see below under Consonants). In other cases, the scribe sometimes inserted a vowel: Greek Hēraklēs became Hercle by syncopation and then was expanded to Herecele. Pallottino[29] regarded this variation in vowels as "instability in the quality of vowels" and accounted for the second phase (e.g. Herecele) as "vowel harmony, i.e., of the assimilation of vowels in neighboring syllables ....""

    Interestingly, albanian also exhibits considerably "stress on the first syllable and consonant clusters".
    For example: Hercle (etr) - Herkuli(alb), are more simmilar to each-other than to Hēraklēs (greek).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    On the flip side, I have noticed these two peculiar words which have no parallel outside Albanian:

    - "hekur" (iron)
    - "xeheror" (ore, mineral).
    I wonder for their etymology. In modern Albanian "heq" (in Gheg: "hek") means "extract" (v);
    "hequr" (in Gheg: "hekur") means "extracted".
    Is it possible to be a coincidence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I think (for now) too that Y-R1b was introduced 2 times in Europe, BUT the obstacle is that the most of western european ligneages seam not too old and being cognates of a same little number of upstream ancestors living between N-Italy, E-France and SW-Germany at some stage - W-Europe for me does not show an important dicotomy - I believe the 2 streams and different occurrences of R1b would be around Balkans and Greece...
    hard to prove - the datation of the W-European first ancestors arriving is not so easy to do and so their affiliation to an I-E or a pre-I-E wave - we lack more ancient DNA studies about Meso-Neolithic-Bronze ages transition -
    And we shouldn't forget the previous waves of I and G, whose languages probably had an impact on the languages of the newcomers. As long as substrata are considered, they are important too. But you're right, we lack accurate datings.

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    I might have found the historical connection between basque-etruscan-albanian. The key is "Cardium Pottery" neolithic culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery
    It certainly fits very well with the expansion of E-v13 and the R1b-269* (parent clade) through anatolia.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kentel View Post

    Excellent. The zakur/zagar especially is really puzzling.


    Old Georgian ძაღ-ალ Dzag-al - Dog

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Fao View Post
    I wonder for their etymology. In modern Albanian "heq" (in Gheg: "hek") means "extract" (v);
    "hequr" (in Gheg: "hekur") means "extracted".
    Is it possible to be a coincidence?
    I found some more albanian - basque similar words:

    flower - lore (basque)- lule (alb.)
    eat - ano (food supply ) - ha
    circle - korru (basque) - korr (harvest in a circular motion with a sicle alb.)
    square - karratu (basque) - katror (alb.)
    house - etzea (basque) - e zene (occupied alb.)
    edge, border - hegi (basque) - hendek (alb.)
    head - buru (basque) - burim (source alb.)
    exchange - truka (basque)- truk (trick alb.) I guess this is close to english too.
    bird - txori (basque) - zok, zog (alb.)
    luck - zori (basque) - zorr (barely, luckily alb.)

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    Some of you should really stop playing pseudolinguistis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    I found some more albanian - basque similar words:

    flower - lore (basque)- lule (alb.)
    eat - ano (food supply ) - ha
    circle - korru (basque) - korr (harvest in a circular motion with a sicle alb.)
    square - karratu (basque) - katror (alb.)
    house - etzea (basque) - e zene (occupied alb.)
    edge, border - hegi (basque) - hendek (alb.)
    head - buru (basque) - burim (source alb.)
    exchange - truka (basque)- truk (trick alb.) I guess this is close to english too.
    bird - txori (basque) - zok, zog (alb.)
    luck - zori (basque) - zorr (barely, luckily alb.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Some of you should really stop playing pseudolinguistis.
    Kamani, I would have put it more diplomatically than eldritch, but he's right. As I elaborated here, there are very clear, rigorous rules of how one establishes a relationship between two languages. You're comparing superficially similar words in modern Albanian and modern Basque without considering the changes that these languages made in the past (which was the point of my earlier post), and without considering if the words you perceive as similar exist elsewhere. If there was a relationship between Basque and a hypothetical pre-IE substrate in Albanian, the words would have thousands of years of separate development.

    With regards for the Etruscans, while they spoke a non-Indo-European language, there's considerable genetic evidence that the Etruscans immigrated to Italy from Anatolia:

    The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA

    Mitochondrial DNA variation of modern Tuscans supports the near eastern origin of Etruscans

    In other words, they were not pre-Indo-Europeans in Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Kamani, I would have put it more diplomatically than eldritch, but he's right. As I elaborated here, there are very clear, rigorous rules of how one establishes a relationship between two languages. You're comparing superficially similar words in modern Albanian and modern Basque without considering the changes that these languages made in the past (which was the point of my earlier post), and without considering if the words you perceive as similar exist elsewhere. If there was a relationship between Basque and a hypothetical pre-IE substrate in Albanian, the words would have thousands of years of separate development.

    Maybe I came of as a little pretentious, ofcourse I know that I am presenting nothing academically rigorous. I have neither the tools
    nor the time for that; if I had a rigorous study I wouldn't post it for free on a forum but publish it and get
    some academic credit for it. I am just talking from the intuitive position of somebody who speaks 4+
    IE languages, albanian being one of them. I am fully aware that a lot of my connections might fall
    under a linguistic study. Whoever is a linguist can take my ideas and run with them,
    or choose to ignore them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    With regards for the Etruscans, while they spoke a non-Indo-European language, there's considerable genetic evidence that the Etruscans immigrated to Italy from Anatolia:

    The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA

    Mitochondrial DNA variation of modern Tuscans supports the near eastern origin of Etruscans

    In other words, they were not pre-Indo-Europeans in Italy.
    That doesn't contradict my point, I am also saying they came from anatolia, as part of the Cardium Pottery culture.

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    Reply

    I don't think you sound pretentious, I appreciate both your and Yetos's contributions. As an utter novice, I pick-up interesting tidbits like "blood tax" and Pelasgians--and this isn't a peer review journal so the free flow of ideas between "citizen scientists" should be encouraged. (I will say peer reviewed journals might acutally benefit from browsing through these threads, because I've seen few gems bantered about here on Eupedia.)

    You mentioned speaking four languages... this might be an idea for a seperate thread, but what four languages would give the best understanding of European history? My vote would be 1. Modern English 2. Modern Albanian 3. Old Norse 4. Ancient Greek (A working knowledge of Basque would be nice too.)

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    Albanian would almost have to be toward the top of the list because of it's unique genetic consistency. Slices of E, G2, I1, I2, J1, R1a, and R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    what four languages would give the best understanding of European history? My vote would be 1. Modern English 2. Modern Albanian 3. Old Norse 4. Ancient Greek (A working knowledge of Basque would be nice too.)
    That's a good choice. I would also add something from the latin family, like italian or spanish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Maybe I came of as a little pretentious, ofcourse I know that I am presenting nothing academically rigorous. I have neither the tools
    nor the time for that; if I had a rigorous study I wouldn't post it for free on a forum but publish it and get
    some academic credit for it. I am just talking from the intuitive position of somebody who speaks 4+
    IE languages, albanian being one of them. I am fully aware that a lot of my connections might fall
    under a linguistic study. Whoever is a linguist can take my ideas and run with them,
    or choose to ignore them.
    I could go into greater length, but, I suggest nontheless that you might want to check out this article, which goes into great detail of the problems.

    That doesn't contradict my point, I am also saying they came from anatolia, as part of the Cardium Pottery culture.
    It does. We are talking about an early iron age immigration, while Cardium Pottery was in the Neolithic. There is also the Lemnian language, which is staunchingly similar to Etruscan. The two languages couldn't be so similar if the common ancestor was spoken in the 7th or 6th millennium BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    It does. We are talking about an early iron age immigration, while Cardium Pottery was in the Neolithic. There is also the Lemnian language, which is staunchingly similar to Etruscan. The two languages couldn't be so similar if the common ancestor was spoken in the 7th or 6th millennium BC.
    The article did not give any proof of the time-period when the migration took place. Wikipedia also confirms this:

    Another team of Italian researchers showed that the mtDNA of cattle (Bos taurus) in modern Tuscany is different from that of cattle normally found elsewhere in Italy, and even in Europe as a whole.[27][28][29] An autochthonous population that diverged genetically was suggested as a possibility by Cavalli-Sforza.[2] The mtDNA is similar to that of cattle typically found in the Near East. Many tribes who have migrated in the past have typically taken their livestock with them as they moved. This bovine mtDNA study suggests that at least some people whose descendants were Etruscans made their way to Italy from Anatolia or other parts of the Near East. However, the study gives no clue as to when they might have done so. There is the possibility that Etruscan civilization arose locally with maritimecontacts from all across the Mediterranean, and the genetic presence could have been all along since the Neolithic and the expansion of the seaborne Cardium Pottery cultures of same origin.

    The Lemnian-etruscan connection is another confirmation to my point, because Lemnos is on the maritime ways of Cardium Pottery culture, and Cardium Pottery spread along the coasts in a maritime fashion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Maybe I came of as a little pretentious, ofcourse I know that I am presenting nothing academically rigorous. I have neither the tools
    nor the time for that; if I had a rigorous study I wouldn't post it for free on a forum but publish it and get
    some academic credit for it. I am just talking from the intuitive position of somebody who speaks 4+
    IE languages, albanian being one of them. I am fully aware that a lot of my connections might fall
    under a linguistic study. Whoever is a linguist can take my ideas and run with them,
    or choose to ignore them.
    You would be surprised by the lack of objectivity and the absurdities of some speeches if you attended academic linguistic conferences. You have already a good insight into this when reading etymological dictionaries... Linguists are generally not likely to question unproven ideas upon which there is a common agreement (ex: the PIE left the Pontic steppe around 3000 BC). Moreover, ideology underlies many arguments, and when we are talking about the Indo-Europeans, their language, their homeland and their way of life, we fall very rapidly into ideological quicksand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    The Lemnian-etruscan connection is another confirmation to my point, because Lemnos is on the maritime ways of Cardium Pottery culture, and Cardium Pottery spread along the coasts in a maritime fashion.

    It is not a confirmation rather the opposite, because, as I elaborated:

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    It does. We are talking about an early iron age immigration, while Cardium Pottery was in the Neolithic. There is also the Lemnian language, which is staunchingly similar to Etruscan. The two languages couldn't be so similar if the common ancestor was spoken in the 7th or 6th millennium BC.
    Lemnian and Etruscan are very similar (perhaps Catalan vs. Castillian Spanish). If there was a Cardium Pottery connection it would date back in the 7th/6th millennium BC, and it would be extremely unlikely for two languages to be so similar. If I were to hazard a guess, I would expect a similarity of the degree at such deep time to be comparable to the difference between, for example, Hebrew and Hausa.

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    @Kamani

    Etruscans were nemed by Greeks as Thyrrenians Thyrsenians etc,

    the sea from Sardinia to central- North Italy carries their name Thyrennian sea,
    and 1 possible explanation is that Adriatic is after Hatria-Atria Etruscan or Mycenean city, (the other is after Greek abra and adra sea, soft and rough sea)


    ETruscans can also be connected with sea peoples, or are the same.

    their move to Italy is about same time with sea peoples,
    Means after the Troyan war, and almost same time with Minoan Navy decline (worked as traffic police in East mediterennean) and Mycenae destruction,
    that put devastation of Etruscans to Italy after 1200 BC to almost 900 BC when we have the Dorian descent and the Early olympic in Ellanas river
    the final move of Etruscan speaking people is about 500 BC from Lemnos
    Cardium pottery is milleniums before, means it made its circle much before Etruscans,
    Cardium pottery reach Italy 4-5 milleniums before Etruscans,
    so we cannot combine these 2 events cause Cardium pottery existed in Italy when Etruscans went

    there are threads about them in the forum, with very interesting historical linguistic and gennetical data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Lemnian and Etruscan are very similar (perhaps Catalan vs. Castillian Spanish). If there was a Cardium Pottery connection it would date back in the 7th/6th millennium BC, and it would be extremely unlikely for two languages to be so similar. If I were to hazard a guess, I would expect a similarity of the degree at such deep time to be comparable to the difference between, for example, Hebrew and Hausa.
    Assuming they're that simmilar, that would mean Lemnos was an etruscan colony. If you consider the non-IE pelasgians in the middle as a possible connection, Etruria and Lemnos do not seem that far. However this connection was severely weakened when the IE Illyrians and Mychaneans came in the balkans. Cardium pottery is still a candidate in the ethnogenesis of etruscans because of G and E V-13 hg, maybe as a contribution from an older neolithic crowd of the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    To understand the IE languages expansion, we might need to study pre-IE languages in Europe. The best candidate pre-IE language is basque since it is still spoken today. Another pre-IE population in europe are the pelasgians, the earliest known inhabitants of the balkans. So my attempt is to compare pelasgian and basque. Since we don't know much about pelasgian, I am making an assumption that we will find traces of it in modern albanian. After digging in online dictionaries for about 1/2 hour, I think I found some suprising similarities.

    dog - txakur, zakur (basque) - zagar (albanian)
    mountain - mendi(basque) - mali(albanian)
    forest - pinudi (basque) - pylli (albanian)
    nut - intxaur (basque) - arre (albanian)
    soldier - gudari (basque) - ushtari (albanian)

    If I am on the right track with this, this would mean that Basque is the survivor of a family of languages that once were used in most of Europe. Since the basque people are 88% R1b, and many scientists claim that R1b has been in europe before the bronze age and IE-languages expansion, the whole R1a+R1b expansion in Europe with IE-languages seems flawed. Which would mean that we don't really have a model how the IE languages expanded in Europe.
    Zagar seems to be a satem version of the English dog.
    The word mendi is much more similar to the Spanish montaña or the English mountain rather than the Albanian mali.
    Pinudi seems to have been derived from the Latin Pinoideae(Different types of pines), pinu means pine in Basque. While pylli seems related to forest.
    Intxaur and arrë are quite similar to the English walnut.
    I don't know the etymology of the word ushtar, but gudari is more similar even to the English soldier, or other words like guard etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I have my doubts about the validity of the very concept of "Pelasgian" (that is, a common pre-IE language on the Balkans), and honestly I find any connections of "Pelasgian" with Albanian spurious. By the original meaning (how the Greeks used the word), it either refered to the ancestors of the Greeks or to the first people that lived in Greece before the Greeks (which may not be mutually exclusive). In the linguistic sense, it may make sense to dubb the Pre-Greek substrate "Pelasgian", but it's an unfortunate term since there certainly was not "one" Pelasgian language but several: Greek has borrowings from Anatolian (Luwic), Semitic and very probably also the as-of-yet-undeciphered Minoan language. You might talk about 'Pelasgian languages' (plural), but considering how they were obviously not related with each other, this seems without purpose. If the "Pelasgian" hypothesis in the sense of a common Balkans pre-IE substrate was correct, we would expect a common substrate found in both Greek and Albanian, but I haven't seen a convincing example of this yet.

    Independent of this, it's possible (and probable) that there are pre-IE substrate words in Albanian, but there is no connection what so ever with the so-called 'Pelasgians'.

    So let's see...



    I don't want to discourage you (rather the opposite), but to me, I'm afraid, most of the words look only superficially similar:

    - "mendi" requires an earlier *bendi.

    - "pinudi" is very probably a Latin loanword, from Latin "pinetum" (grove).

    - "intxaur" ("walnut") is probably a compound word - see "hur" ("hazelnut").

    - "gudari" is a compound word, derived from "gudu" ("battle"). It is formed in a similar way as for instance "edan" (to drink) > edari (beverage). Albanian "ushtri" is usually thought to be derived from Latin "hostis" - in any case the two words look not particularly similar to me.

    On the flip side, I have noticed these two peculiar words which have no parallel outside Albanian:

    - "hekur" (iron)
    - "xeheror" (ore, mineral)



    That's a lot of assumptions. The oldest find of R1b thus far comes from a Beaker-Bell site in Germany, but it's absent from the various Neolithic sites in western and central Europe - in so far I find the evidence for a founder effect in western Europe quite compelling. If R1b was anywhere in Europe before, it would have been the Balkans (L23 cluster on the Balkans, which is sitting outside of Western Europe L51, however). I'm also not very convinced on the Basque-R1b connection, it's also possible that the Basques were formerly predominantly I2-M26.
    Hekur seems related to the Spanish hierro and even the English hard.
    Xeheror is strange, but both words that you mentioned seems to be related, first we have ore <> xeheror and than we have mineral <> xeheror.
    I guess you answered your own questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Fao View Post
    I wonder for their etymology. In modern Albanian "heq" (in Gheg: "hek") means "extract" (v);
    "hequr" (in Gheg: "hekur") means "extracted".
    Is it possible to be a coincidence?
    Maybe, or maybe not. Notice than as you yourself pointed out, heq means extract. Also I don't know if you're not actually Geg or are trying to fool the forum members, but in Geg extracted is said hekun and not hekur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Old Georgian ძაღ-ალ Dzag-al - Dog
    Exactly Dzag-al <> Dog.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    I found some more albanian - basque similar words:

    flower - lore (basque)- lule (alb.)
    eat - ano (food supply ) - ha
    circle - korru (basque) - korr (harvest in a circular motion with a sicle alb.)
    square - karratu (basque) - katror (alb.)
    house - etzea (basque) - e zene (occupied alb.)
    edge, border - hegi (basque) - hendek (alb.)
    head - buru (basque) - burim (source alb.)
    exchange - truka (basque)- truk (trick alb.) I guess this is close to english too.
    bird - txori (basque) - zok, zog (alb.)
    luck - zori (basque) - zorr (barely, luckily alb.)

    Well, lule is much more related to the English flower. While the Basque lore seems to derive from the Spanish flor(flower).
    Food supply in Basque is said elikagaien hornidura.
    This circle thing was really funny. First, circle in Basque is said zirkulu and that explains itself. While as you said të korrësh means to harvest, and it's very similar to the English correspondent.
    The Albanian katror derives from the Latin quattor(four).
    Etxea is no way related to the Albanian zënë(busy or occupied, not in the military meaning), etxea seems to have derived from the Latin tectum(rooftop).
    <about this hendek thing. Do you realize that hendek is a Turkish word right? And it has been adopted from Albanian not too much time ago. While hegi and edge seems quite similar.
    How are the words head and source related to each others? Buru(head) seems to have the same origin as the Albanian burrë(man), both from the Spanish hombre(man). While burim(source) has the same origin as the Dutch bron(source).
    After reading this truk thing I'm starting to have concerns about you, or you're a ***** or a total i...
    ...well, totally iiiiignorant in linguistics. The Albanian truk cannot even be understood from the old generations, because it's a word that has entered in the Albanian language after the fall of the communist dictatorship via the French truc(trick). On the other side the Basque truka is a lot similar to the English trade or even the Albanian treg(market).
    The Albanian(satem) zog(bird) is related to the Scandinavian(centum) languages, the Danish and Norwegian fugl(bird) and the Swedish fågel(bird). On the other side txori(bird) seems to be related a lot to the Albanian sorrë(crow).
    The Basque zori(luck) probably derives from the Latin fors(chance), while the Albanian me zorr(barely) derives from the Turkish zar zor (barely).

    Conclusion you just made yourself look ridiculous and made me involuntary find by mistakes two clear similarities between Albanian and Basque.
    It was more easy for me to find them by mistake than you by intention. Linguistics is a science and in science you study the evidence and came up with a conclusion and not vice-versa, that would be religion. Your claims are pure myth.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelless View Post

    Conclusion you just made yourself look ridiculous and made me involuntary find by mistakes two clear similarities between Albanian and Basque.
    It was more easy for me to find them by mistake than you by intention. Linguistics is a science and in science you study the evidence and came up with a conclusion and not vice-versa, that would be religion. Your claims are pure myth.
    wow, you're so smart, thank you for putting me to my place. We should raise you a monument or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Old Georgian ძაღ-ალ Dzag-al - Dog
    Would Schakal/Jackal then be a German/English cognate?
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_jackal
    "...indigenous to north and northeastern Africa, southeastern and central Europe (up to Austria and Hungary), Asia Minor, the Middle East and southeast Asia.")

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