Pre Indo European languages in Europe

@Kamani

Etruscans were nemed by Greeks as Thyrrenians Thyrsenians etc,

the sea from Sardinia to central- North Italy carries their name Thyrennian sea,
and 1 possible explanation is that Adriatic is after Hatria-Atria Etruscan or Mycenean city, (the other is after Greek abra and adra sea, soft and rough sea)


ETruscans can also be connected with sea peoples, or are the same.

their move to Italy is about same time with sea peoples,
Means after the Troyan war, and almost same time with Minoan Navy decline (worked as traffic police in East mediterennean) and Mycenae destruction,
that put devastation of Etruscans to Italy after 1200 BC to almost 900 BC when we have the Dorian descent and the Early olympic in Ellanas river
the final move of Etruscan speaking people is about 500 BC from Lemnos
Cardium pottery is milleniums before, means it made its circle much before Etruscans,
Cardium pottery reach Italy 4-5 milleniums before Etruscans,
so we cannot combine these 2 events cause Cardium pottery existed in Italy when Etruscans went

there are threads about them in the forum, with very interesting historical linguistic and gennetical data.
 
Lemnian and Etruscan are very similar (perhaps Catalan vs. Castillian Spanish). If there was a Cardium Pottery connection it would date back in the 7th/6th millennium BC, and it would be extremely unlikely for two languages to be so similar. If I were to hazard a guess, I would expect a similarity of the degree at such deep time to be comparable to the difference between, for example, Hebrew and Hausa.

Assuming they're that simmilar, that would mean Lemnos was an etruscan colony. If you consider the non-IE pelasgians in the middle as a possible connection, Etruria and Lemnos do not seem that far. However this connection was severely weakened when the IE Illyrians and Mychaneans came in the balkans. Cardium pottery is still a candidate in the ethnogenesis of etruscans because of G and E V-13 hg, maybe as a contribution from an older neolithic crowd of the area.
 
To understand the IE languages expansion, we might need to study pre-IE languages in Europe. The best candidate pre-IE language is basque since it is still spoken today. Another pre-IE population in europe are the pelasgians, the earliest known inhabitants of the balkans. So my attempt is to compare pelasgian and basque. Since we don't know much about pelasgian, I am making an assumption that we will find traces of it in modern albanian. After digging in online dictionaries for about 1/2 hour, I think I found some suprising similarities.

dog - txakur, zakur (basque) - zagar (albanian)
mountain - mendi(basque) - mali(albanian)
forest - pinudi (basque) - pylli (albanian)
nut - intxaur (basque) - arre (albanian)
soldier - gudari (basque) - ushtari (albanian)

If I am on the right track with this, this would mean that Basque is the survivor of a family of languages that once were used in most of Europe. Since the basque people are 88% R1b, and many scientists claim that R1b has been in europe before the bronze age and IE-languages expansion, the whole R1a+R1b expansion in Europe with IE-languages seems flawed. Which would mean that we don't really have a model how the IE languages expanded in Europe.
Zagar seems to be a satem version of the English dog.
The word mendi is much more similar to the Spanish montaña or the English mountain rather than the Albanian mali.
Pinudi seems to have been derived from the Latin Pinoideae(Different types of pines), pinu means pine in Basque. While pylli seems related to forest.
Intxaur and arrë are quite similar to the English walnut.
I don't know the etymology of the word ushtar, but gudari is more similar even to the English soldier, or other words like guard etc.

I have my doubts about the validity of the very concept of "Pelasgian" (that is, a common pre-IE language on the Balkans), and honestly I find any connections of "Pelasgian" with Albanian spurious. By the original meaning (how the Greeks used the word), it either refered to the ancestors of the Greeks or to the first people that lived in Greece before the Greeks (which may not be mutually exclusive). In the linguistic sense, it may make sense to dubb the Pre-Greek substrate "Pelasgian", but it's an unfortunate term since there certainly was not "one" Pelasgian language but several: Greek has borrowings from Anatolian (Luwic), Semitic and very probably also the as-of-yet-undeciphered Minoan language. You might talk about 'Pelasgian languages' (plural), but considering how they were obviously not related with each other, this seems without purpose. If the "Pelasgian" hypothesis in the sense of a common Balkans pre-IE substrate was correct, we would expect a common substrate found in both Greek and Albanian, but I haven't seen a convincing example of this yet.

Independent of this, it's possible (and probable) that there are pre-IE substrate words in Albanian, but there is no connection what so ever with the so-called 'Pelasgians'.

So let's see...



I don't want to discourage you (rather the opposite), but to me, I'm afraid, most of the words look only superficially similar:

- "mendi" requires an earlier *bendi.

- "pinudi" is very probably a Latin loanword, from Latin "pinetum" (grove).

- "intxaur" ("walnut") is probably a compound word - see "hur" ("hazelnut").

- "gudari" is a compound word, derived from "gudu" ("battle"). It is formed in a similar way as for instance "edan" (to drink) > edari (beverage). Albanian "ushtri" is usually thought to be derived from Latin "hostis" - in any case the two words look not particularly similar to me.

On the flip side, I have noticed these two peculiar words which have no parallel outside Albanian:

- "hekur" (iron)
- "xeheror" (ore, mineral)



That's a lot of assumptions. The oldest find of R1b thus far comes from a Beaker-Bell site in Germany, but it's absent from the various Neolithic sites in western and central Europe - in so far I find the evidence for a founder effect in western Europe quite compelling. If R1b was anywhere in Europe before, it would have been the Balkans (L23 cluster on the Balkans, which is sitting outside of Western Europe L51, however). I'm also not very convinced on the Basque-R1b connection, it's also possible that the Basques were formerly predominantly I2-M26.
Hekur seems related to the Spanish hierro and even the English hard.
Xeheror is strange, but both words that you mentioned seems to be related, first we have ore <> xeheror and than we have mineral <> xeheror.
I guess you answered your own questions.

I wonder for their etymology. In modern Albanian "heq" (in Gheg: "hek") means "extract" (v);
"hequr" (in Gheg: "hekur") means "extracted".
Is it possible to be a coincidence?
Maybe, or maybe not. Notice than as you yourself pointed out, heq means extract. Also I don't know if you're not actually Geg or are trying to fool the forum members, but in Geg extracted is said hekun and not hekur.

Old Georgian ძაღ-ალ Dzag-al - Dog
Exactly Dzag-al <> Dog.

I found some more albanian - basque similar words:

flower - lore (basque)- lule (alb.)
eat - ano (food supply ) - ha
circle - korru (basque) - korr (harvest in a circular motion with a sicle alb.)
square - karratu (basque) - katror (alb.)
house - etzea (basque) - e zene (occupied alb.)
edge, border - hegi (basque) - hendek (alb.)
head - buru (basque) - burim (source alb.)
exchange - truka (basque)- truk (trick alb.) I guess this is close to english too.
bird - txori (basque) - zok, zog (alb.)
luck - zori (basque) - zorr (barely, luckily alb.)
:petrified:
Well, lule is much more related to the English flower. While the Basque lore seems to derive from the Spanish flor(flower).
Food supply in Basque is said elikagaien hornidura.
This circle thing was really funny. First, circle in Basque is said zirkulu and that explains itself. While as you said të korrësh means to harvest, and it's very similar to the English correspondent.
The Albanian katror derives from the Latin quattor(four).
Etxea is no way related to the Albanian zënë(busy or occupied, not in the military meaning), etxea seems to have derived from the Latin tectum(rooftop).
:LOL:<about this hendek thing. Do you realize that hendek is a Turkish word right? And it has been adopted from Albanian not too much time ago. While hegi and edge seems quite similar.
How are the words head and source related to each others? Buru(head) seems to have the same origin as the Albanian burrë(man), both from the Spanish hombre(man). While burim(source) has the same origin as the Dutch bron(source).
After reading this truk thing I'm starting to have concerns about you, or you're a ***** or a total i...
...well, totally iiiiignorant in linguistics. The Albanian truk cannot even be understood from the old generations, because it's a word that has entered in the Albanian language after the fall of the communist dictatorship via the French truc(trick). On the other side the Basque truka is a lot similar to the English trade or even the Albanian treg(market).
The Albanian(satem) zog(bird) is related to the Scandinavian(centum) languages, the Danish and Norwegian fugl(bird) and the Swedish fågel[FONT=arial, sans-serif](bird). On the other side[/FONT] txori[FONT=arial, sans-serif](bird) seems to be related a lot to the Albanian [/FONT]sorrë[FONT=arial, sans-serif](crow).[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]The Basque [/FONT]zori[FONT=arial, sans-serif](luck) probably derives from the Latin [/FONT]fors[FONT=arial, sans-serif](chance), while the Albanian me zorr(barely) derives from the Turkish zar zor (barely).[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, sans-serif]Conclusion you just made yourself look ridiculous and made me involuntary find by mistakes two clear similarities between Albanian and Basque.
It was more easy for me to find them by mistake than you by intention. Linguistics is a science and in science you study the evidence and came up with a conclusion and not vice-versa, that would be religion. Your claims are pure myth.
[/FONT]
 
Conclusion you just made yourself look ridiculous and made me involuntary find by mistakes two clear similarities between Albanian and Basque.
It was more easy for me to find them by mistake than you by intention. Linguistics is a science and in science you study the evidence and came up with a conclusion and not vice-versa, that would be religion. Your claims are pure myth.

wow, you're so smart, thank you for putting me to my place. We should raise you a monument or something.
 
Would Schakal/Jackal then be a German/English cognate?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_jackal
"...indigenous to north and northeastern Africa, southeastern and central Europe (up to Austria and Hungary), Asia Minor, the Middle East and southeast Asia.")

Hmm, interesting... although I am not sure...

Jackal <----- from Turkish chakāl , from Persian shagāl , from Sanskrit srgāla
 
Hmm, interesting... although I am not sure...

Jackal <----- from Turkish chakāl , from Persian shagāl , from Sanskrit srgāla

Maybe
Zagar and shagāl are simplified versions of srgāla...
 
interesting,

I wonder Greek θως where cognates?
 
in albanian: jackal = cakall (and it's a different animal from dog), so zagar still sounds closer to zakur, (k is a silent g). BTW, albanian also has the latin cognate for dog: qen = canis. Notice that like etruscan, albanian puts value on the first syllable. As far as the english "dog", it probably came from the latin verb indago=search, track.
 
another basque - albanian similar word, "stone, on the ground": gur (alb) - gur (bas). Lets see if an IE cognate comes up for "gur".
 
Zagar seems to be a satem version of the English dog.
I don't know the etymology of the word ushtar, but gudari is more similar even to the English soldier, or other words like guard etc.
Hekur seems related to the Spanish hierro and even the English hard.
Exactly Dzag-al <> Dog.

Well, lule is much more related to the English flower. While the Basque lore seems to derive from the Spanish flor(flower).
Food supply in Basque is said elikagaien hornidura.
How are the words head and source related to each others? Buru(head) seems to have the same origin as the Albanian burrë(man), both from the Spanish hombre(man). While burim(source) has the same origin as the Dutch bron(source).
After reading this truk thing I'm starting to have concerns about you, or you're a ***** or a total i...
The Albanian(satem) zog(bird) is related to the Scandinavian(centum) languages, the Danish and Norwegian fugl(bird) and the Swedish fågel(bird).
Conclusion you just made yourself look ridiculous and made me involuntary find by mistakes two clear similarities between Albanian and Basque.
It was more easy for me to find them by mistake than you by intention. Linguistics is a science and in science you study the evidence and came up with a conclusion and not vice-versa, that would be religion. Your claims are pure myth.

just some points:
satem Z has more chances to derive fromI-E *G'
english guard is surely from an ancient germ- *war-d
spanish (castillan) hierro is for other dialects fierro/ferro, english hard surely comes from a IE *kar- (brittonic celtic caled/kaled "hard"???)
castillan hombre cannot be broken down as ****hom-bre, it comes from latin word hom-ine- (here the H is old and etymologic (latin), but doesn't correspond to original *f- as in other castillan and gasconoccitan words
zog <> fowl/vogel/fugl ??? the F- in germanic is for the most the reflex of an old PIE/IE P- (see breton polog, french poule, latin pullis??? just a track very unsure...)
for the remnant I 'm not in position to say anything, I regret I don't speak albanian nor basque
 
Old Georgian ძაღ-ალ Dzag-al - Dog

Before comparing Georgian with English, have you looked what the word for 'dog' is in the other Kartvelian languages? Bear in mind that Georgian is not an isolate language.

Zagar seems to be a satem version of the English dog.
Could you explain to us what exactly is, according to you, 'Satem', about this?

seems related to the Spanish hierro and even the English hard.

But Spanish "hierro" is a cognate with Latin "ferrum", French "fer", Italian "ferro".
Also compare Spanish "hija" - Latin "filia", French "fille", Italian "figlia". I might pick more examples, the point is that the *h in Spanish corresponds regularly to *f in Latin or other Romance languages. And the English word "hard" is clearly unrelated.

Conclusion you just made yourself look ridiculous and made me involuntary find by mistakes two clear similarities between Albanian and Basque.
It was more easy for me to find them by mistake than you by intention. Linguistics is a science and in science you study the evidence and came up with a conclusion and not vice-versa, that would be religion. Your claims are pure myth.

While I see that you have taken quite an effort in to this, no doubt like, many of your proposed cognates or etymologies, no offense, are essentially based on superficial similarity. Or you are taking individual letters out of a word and equate them with another word in another language. Where is your regularity and rigourosity?

Would Schakal/Jackal then be a German/English cognate?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_jackal
"...indigenous to north and northeastern Africa, southeastern and central Europe (up to Austria and Hungary), Asia Minor, the Middle East and southeast Asia.")

I'm pretty sure the word is a wanderwort.
 
A puppy in (Kurmanji) Kurdish = 'tulja' and a dog in Kurdish = 'kûçik' ('kutjik').
 
zagar is a hunting dog in Albania, alternate word is "langua" or qen gjahu. because the hunting dog is used by its master to collect prey Albs use to speak negatively of a person who is like an obedient servant or tool etc. puppy is kelysh or klish in Alb qenushe (fem dog) bushter (bad connotation fem dog) etc you could use the online shqip-shqip dictionary for meaning of words http://fjalorshqip.com/
 
Before comparing Georgian with English, have you looked what the word for 'dog' is in the other Kartvelian languages? Bear in mind that Georgian is not an isolate language.

Georgian ძაღ-ალ dzag-al has a perfect cognateს in Laz/Megrelian ჯოღ-ორ jog-or and Svan ჟეღ zheg
 
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It's very strange to see that the main ancestors of the Kurds, the Medes, had a different name for a dog. They called a dog = 'spake' ('spaka'), while the Scythians called a dog = 'kutha' ('kuti'). Scythian 'kutha' ('kuti') is the same as Kurdish 'kûçik' ('kutjik').

So there're even different names for a 'dog' in (ancient & modern) Iranic languages:

DOG

Median: spake (spaka) close to Russian 'sabaka'
Farsi: sag
Kurdish: kûçik (kutjik)
Scythian: kutha (kuti)

http://steppes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=board22&action=display&thread=1369
 
A puppy in (Kurmanji) Kurdish = 'tulja' and a dog in Kurdish = 'kûçik' ('kutjik').

interesting: if 'kûçik' can be broken as *kû-çik it shows a link with celtic singular cu/ci/ki >> plural cuin/cwn/kon
 
wow, you're so smart, thank you for putting me to my place. We should raise you a monument or something.
That wasn't my goal. I was just pointing out that Albanian isn't some sort of super ancient language or whatever the Albanian nationalism claims.

interesting,

I wonder Greek θως where cognates?
It's really curious, even I would like to hear more about this.

another basque - albanian similar word, "stone, on the ground": gur (alb) - gur (bas). Lets see if an IE cognate comes up for "gur".
Well you have the Armenian քար(k'ar), no big deal anyway.

Guys and girls, I'm not a linguist. As you might have noticed I usually just reply on the topics that include the Albanian language in it. I do it because I'm tired of these nationalists, they're destroying the future of my country. They live in Wonderland, they believe that the Ancient Egyptians were speaking some sort of Proto-Albanian dialects along Ancient Greeks and Ancient Romans, because even these ones were 'Albanians' stand to these pothead nationalists. My point is to show them that Albanian is not a Gods' language but just a random IE language. About my IP and flag usage, I used the Canadian flag mostly because I love Canada. It's true that for now I live in Albania despite I might move in Canada. But the point was, I used the Canadian flag to avoid spam from the Albanian members, they usually call a traitor anyone that doesn't like their stupid propaganda. I want the future generations of Albania to live in the reality and not with romantic nationalist dreams.
 

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