E1b1b1a1b (V-13): Balkan or Middle Eastern?

[MOESAN]

just to add some details:
in a regions survey about Romania (but based upon scarce samples: around 100 or a bit less by region) I noticed that Bessarabia (extreme N-E, in it the romanian Moldovia, so close to the Black Sea and not far from S-W Ukraina) present veru different %s of some Y-HGs - we know no official country in Europe is completely homogenous but here I found strong enough the differences:
Y-R1b : 0,0% !!! (Rom- 10-14%) even if more samples will give more, it would not be too high I think -
Y-I-P37 (I2a1b?) only 17,2% (Rom- 20-26%) / Y-R1a only 6,8% (Rom- 16-18%) / Y-J2 : 34,4% (Rom- 12-13%) AND Y-E1b-V13: 34,5% (Rom- 15-18%) -
so: even if by a possible drift, Kossovars have higher %s of E-V13 than Bessarabians, we can see in Bessarabia a hotspot of AND Y-J2 AND Y-E-V13 - the linguistic affirmations Albanians have some phonetic traits that put them close to some people of Romania have maybe some basis? their supposed proximity (linguistic) to dacian and thracian does not seem contradicted by that; surely the Y-J2 could be broken down into two sorts (neolithic and bronze age) but here we can suppose the Starcevo agricultural group was rich for this two haplogoroups (Y-E + One of the Y-J2) and that the subsequent Cucuteni-Tripolje group was not too poor... the "southern caucasian" diverse types (which left non neglictible remnants in the today populations bording the western Black Sea shores) was surely heavy in these populations before Bronze (confirmed by anthropological surveys on Cucuteni-Tripolje), crossed in some regions with Y-I2a2 (maybe 'dinarids') - the South Caucasus population involved in later moves (I-E or not) and the Scythes could have send more same southern types but the study of modern populations cannot help us to assign precise periods to the origin of these types (only ancient sepultures) -
what appears is that Y-R1b was not among them as a principal component!!!
ll that relativises a bit the conclusions about armenians highlands types being the ancestors of all the first I-Eans... because the regions bordering Bessarabia, Romanian or not, show more of other Y-Hs (R1a, R1b) - or we have to consider I-Eans were a part of the first neolithic agricultors entering Balkans?

in some aspects this post concerns also the threads about first I-E and the link between them and haplo Y-R1b
good afternoon

 

[Ike]

Your problem is that you talk about 5000 yrs BC and have in mind today's Egyptians. Egypt was not a negroid country. Mummyes show that faraoes were I, R1b or E folks. Majority of Indians are R1a but do they look like slavs to you? EV13 predates 8000 yrs. Ballkan E people and Egyptian E people share a distant common ancester. But the same is true for swedish and arabs.

Where did you get that? This is sucha white-supremacy statement

 

[LeBrok]

just to add some details:
in a regions survey about Romania (but based upon scarce samples: around 100 or a bit less by region) I noticed that Bessarabia (extreme N-E, in it the romanian Moldovia, so close to the Black Sea and not far from S-W Ukraina) present veru different %s of some Y-HGs - we know no official country in Europe is completely homogenous but here I found strong enough the differences:
Y-R1b : 0,0% !!! (Rom- 10-14%) even if more samples will give more, it would not be too high I think -
Y-I-P37 (I2a1b?) only 17,2% (Rom- 20-26%) / Y-R1a only 6,8% (Rom- 16-18%) / Y-J2 : 34,4% (Rom- 12-13%) AND Y-E1b-V13: 34,5% (Rom- 15-18%) -

Bessarabia might be the descendants of Cucuteni Trypillian neolithic farming culture.

 

[kamani]

just to add some details:
in a regions survey about Romania (but based upon scarce samples: around 100 or a bit less by region) I noticed that Bessarabia (extreme N-E, in it the romanian Moldovia, so close to the Black Sea and not far from S-W Ukraina) present veru different %s of some Y-HGs - we know no official country in Europe is completely homogenous but here I found strong enough the differences:
Y-R1b : 0,0% !!! (Rom- 10-14%) even if more samples will give more, it would not be too high I think -
Y-I-P37 (I2a1b?) only 17,2% (Rom- 20-26%) / Y-R1a only 6,8% (Rom- 16-18%) / Y-J2 : 34,4% (Rom- 12-13%) AND Y-E1b-V13: 34,5% (Rom- 15-18%)

This made me think: what if we're all wrong and E-v13 came to the Balkans from the Middle East but through the North of the Black sea route. Meaning: Levant, Caucasus, Ukraine, Romania. This would explain a lot of things, one of which is why Albanians are less North-African than the English in Dodecad, despite their high E-v13.
Another thing it would explain are the J2b hotspots above the Caucasus.

 

[adamo]

That would be highly unlikely. In stead it is well established that the dominant subclade of north-African E3b in southeastern Europe (E-V13) took a Mediterranean maritime route, probably exiting Egypt from the levant and entering the general Albania/Greece region via turkey. There are neither significant signs of E3b (at all) on Crete (destroying a direct Egypt-to southern Greece theory) nor in the northern Balkans. If looking for an E3b trail crossing the Caucasus and then moving from Ukraine down into the Balkans, this theory is evidently a dead-end as well.

 

[MOESAN]

Sorry I was not clear enough at the end of my last post (#101)
I want say: all the so called* 'mediterranean' types bordering the Black Sea are not by force a) Armenia highlands guys (and girls, other problem) - maybe a lot of them did not include Y-R1b bearers (Armenians include some greater %s) - the question of first I-E people still remains: steppic people accultured by Cucuteni-Tripolje OR by highlands "Armenians" OR by East Caspian agriculturalists (the same as "Armenians"?) or some I-E people are Cucuteni-Tripolje neolithic people accultured by steppic ones???

concerniing Y-EV13 I don't think it came through East Caspian and North Caspian or Caucasus -
it has big variance in western Dinaric Alps and coastal Dalmatia and has dense distribution almost everywhere in Greece, Alabania, Montenegro, and parts of Bulgaria and Romania - as others I think it is more western (since all times) than the ancient Y-J bearers - concerning ancient Y-G bearers I think so (look at Pakistan...) - but i'm not able to say if they come directly by sea (very possible) or by coastal "roads" of Levant -
in western and southern Europe (except Atlantic) Y-E-V13 seems linked to farmers communities and in eastern Europe it is the same: my point for the moment: E-V13 where acculturated by the first farmers from Anatolia (Y-G2 and some kind of Y-J2 bearers) in northern Greece Southern Balkans: I suppose their positive drift is linked to demographic positive effets linked to agriculture and maybe (if only a male mediated flow) by some military superiority upon more pacific anatolian farmers?
I think they were allied to more Y-G2 along the Donau river but to more Y-J2 people in eastern Balkans valleys or transylvanian plains and eastern Carpathians slopes (Starcevo and then Cucuteni-Triploje were rich of them I suppose) - it seems corresponding to the mix 'mediterranean (sardinian)' - 'caucasian' tongue we see climbing from Balkans to East-carpathians for finally erode itself into Bela-Russia... One can say too the 'caucasian' part was not so strong at first and was reinforced by later Y-J2 Bronze arrivals BUT I have no right to say this Y-EV13 were bearers by themselves of the 'mediterranean' component, maybe only responsible for a part of it - if male dominants they could have "possessed" the Y-G2 females... all that is only speculation for now -


*: a mount of things could be said about this physical anthropologic precise aspect

 

[kamani]

it has big variance in western Dinaric Alps and coastal Dalmatia and has dense distribution almost everywhere in Greece, Alabania, Montenegro, and parts of Bulgaria and Romania - as others I think it is more western (since all times) than the ancient Y-J bearers - concerning ancient Y-G bearers I think so (look at Pakistan...) - but i'm not able to say if they come directly by sea (very possible) or by coastal "roads" of Levant -
in western and southern Europe (except Atlantic) Y-E-V13 seems linked to farmers communities and in eastern Europe it is the same: my point for the moment: E-V13 where acculturated by the first farmers from Anatolia (Y-G2 and some kind of Y-J2 bearers) in northern Greece Southern Balkans

agree. And I guess I did not explain my supposition fully: E-M35 and E-M78 came to the Balkans from the Caucasian-route (maybe late Paleolithic); then E-v13 was born in the Balkans and started spreading agriculture in the Neolithic, when it learned it from Middle-Eastern sources. We know that the E-M35 has been in the Upper Levant and has had a population expansion there because a lot of its subgroups are born there. If the movement happened in the paleolithic, this is the most probable because ship technology did not allow mass migrations back then and even the Anatolian route has no land connection with the Balkans. The scenario would be: end of LGM these people start moving north in the Caucasus along the Black Sea shores and after a few hundered years end up in the Balkans. They expand and settle there because that is as warm as they could get in their situation. Just a supposition..

 

[Sile]

Sorry I was not clear enough at the end of my last post (#101)
I want say: all the so called* 'mediterranean' types bordering the Black Sea are not by force a) Armenia highlands guys (and girls, other problem) - maybe a lot of them did not include Y-R1b bearers (Armenians include some greater %s) - the question of first I-E people still remains: steppic people accultured by Cucuteni-Tripolje OR by highlands "Armenians" OR by East Caspian agriculturalists (the same as "Armenians"?) or some I-E people are Cucuteni-Tripolje neolithic people accultured by steppic ones???

concerniing Y-EV13 I don't think it came through East Caspian and North Caspian or Caucasus -
it has big variance in western Dinaric Alps and coastal Dalmatia and has dense distribution almost everywhere in Greece, Alabania, Montenegro, and parts of Bulgaria and Romania - as others I think it is more western (since all times) than the ancient Y-J bearers - concerning ancient Y-G bearers I think so (look at Pakistan...) - but i'm not able to say if they come directly by sea (very possible) or by coastal "roads" of Levant -
in western and southern Europe (except Atlantic) Y-E-V13 seems linked to farmers communities and in eastern Europe it is the same: my point for the moment: E-V13 where acculturated by the first farmers from Anatolia (Y-G2 and some kind of Y-J2 bearers) in northern Greece Southern Balkans: I suppose their positive drift is linked to demographic positive effets linked to agriculture and maybe (if only a male mediated flow) by some military superiority upon more pacific anatolian farmers?
I think they were allied to more Y-G2 along the Donau river but to more Y-J2 people in eastern Balkans valleys or transylvanian plains and eastern Carpathians slopes (Starcevo and then Cucuteni-Triploje were rich of them I suppose) - it seems corresponding to the mix 'mediterranean (sardinian)' - 'caucasian' tongue we see climbing from Balkans to East-carpathians for finally erode itself into Bela-Russia... One can say too the 'caucasian' part was not so strong at first and was reinforced by later Y-J2 Bronze arrivals BUT I have no right to say this Y-EV13 were bearers by themselves of the 'mediterranean' component, maybe only responsible for a part of it - if male dominants they could have "possessed" the Y-G2 females... all that is only speculation for now -


*: a mount of things could be said about this physical anthropologic precise aspect

Take care on terminology of some of these autosomal testing sites. east Mediterranean (pontid race) to them refers to Bulgaria and Anatolia region, levant is levant , middle-east is Mesopotamian areas

 

[MOESAN]

Take care on terminology of some of these autosomal testing sites. east Mediterranean (pontid race) to them refers to Bulgaria and Anatolia region, levant is levant , middle-east is Mesopotamian areas

I do with the terminology proposed to me by the Dodecad pooling - at the fine grain level all these groupings can be broken down (as by example 'gedrosia'-'caucasus' for 'west-asian') , even if they show a solid common genetic basis one with another- as an amateur of ancient physical anthropology I can tell you too much subdivisions don't give too much help - there is no clear break between some types of Levant, Mesopotamia, and say, someones of Spain - the most of the time we speak about overlapping populations and crossings more or less complicated - it is clearer to do with phenotypes (results for a big part of autosomals genes controling external features) than to do with regional or national means which "drown" these phenotypes, but at the blind level of chemico-physical (?) analysis of a genome, it is hard to go in the details as some blocks of autosomals are typical and poorly distributed and other more common between neighbouring populations

 

[MOESAN]

I fear my comparisons could harm some Spaniards - what I mean is that at the individual phenotypic level, not only Iberians but too some British people or Dutches can show 'indo-aghan' features or other so called 'mediterranean' type (perhaps not so complete but very close) what is evident when their autosomals package would hardly reveal a so precise partial heritage; the global metric analysis with "distances" and other statistical methods cannot be so precise because they are based uniquely on populations taken as a group - the example could concern as well other types which have some reality -

 

[adamo]

For E3b*, I feel in my loins an origin in the Horn of Africa region ( Ethiopia/Somalia) before spreading from Sudan to Egypt. From there it would head west, eventually reaching the Algeria/morocco region, via more downstream E3b subclades. The Horn of Africa is the home of basal E3b to me. For B, I postulate a Central African origin.

 

[Savall]

It's a typical Balkan haplogroup E-V13 that diffused throughout Europe. It seems to be much more prominent in Southern Europe, especially Southern Italy and Southeastern Europe. It's a typical Mediterranean haplogroup, not middle eastern (though can be found at low rates in Anatolia/Caucasus).

 

[Ike]

But it could emerged in Middle East, spread throughout the Europe during millenniums of peace and prosperity, and then become extinct in Middle East for various reason. Until we excavate, we won't know.

 

[Italian Norman]

E-V13 likely originated somewhere between Aegean Turkey and Serbia, according to STR diversity.
E-M215 is Eurasian in origin. The only underived sample of E-M215* was found in the Khorasan region of North-Eastern Iran by Di Cristofaro et al. (2013). All the previously identified East African and Yemeni samples said to be underived E-M215* have been shown by Trombetta et al. (2011) to be in the sibling sub-clade of E-M35, that is E-M281.

 

[enzstarr1963]

Hi,

I am a e1b1b1a1b E-V13 and my father's family is from the Black Forest in Germany(Wagenstadt). Wagenstadt sits on the Western edge of the Black Forest. To tell you the truth I thought the lab got my results were wrong. What I am wondering is how my V13 haplogroup got to Wagenstadt?

 

[Maleth]

Hi,

I am a e1b1b1a1b E-V13 and my father's family is from the Black Forest in Germany(Wagenstadt). Wagenstadt sits on the Western edge of the Black Forest. To tell you the truth I thought the lab got my results were wrong. What I am wondering is how my V13 haplogroup got to Wagenstadt?

Hi enzstarr1963, I am also E-V13 and from Malta. My SNP map on FTdna shows a cluster in Southwest Germany and east England. Our family name is recorded to have entered the Islands in 1200's soon after the Hohenstaufen period (Swabian era)

 

[albanopolis]

Maybe your problem is you do not read carefully. We don't speak about haplogroups in Ancient Egypt, but about routs of spread (and time) of haplogroup E in Balkans and Europe generally. You can see that members of forum write about different routs (Middle East, Anatolia, Balkans; by sea from North Africa and Lebanon; over the Gibraltar etc.).

We don't know a lot of things and the science will discover with new findings. However, one of thing is sure. E-M78 (Egyptian origin) is ancestor of following subclades:

E-V12 Egypt, Sudan, etc.
E-V13 Balkans, and also South Europe, Lebanon etc.
E-V22 Egypt, Middle East, etc.
E-V65 North Africa, Spain, etc.

Is E-M78* still exist? Yes, carriers this haplogroup, although rare, were found in Egypt, and interestingly, two carriers of E-M78 found in the Balkans (two Albanians).

Its not a surprise the existence of Egyptian strain of haplogroup E in Albania. It could be more than that. The problem is the presence of Egyptian E in Albania is not necessary ancient. A number of colored people in Albania maintain that they originate from Egypt. If that is true then it could be Gypsy miscegenation. So your theory of direct Egyption origin of E-V13 Albanians is in doubt.

 

[Maleth]

We don't know. Maybe Balkans, maybe Anatolia, maybe Lebanon. We know that E-M78 is Egipt origin and that E-V13 derived from E-M78.

And it is high probability that first E-V13 in the Balkans were Negroids.

If this was true then the least you would expect is that Kosovars and Peleponese reaching nearly 50% of e-v13 would be at least be half cast, which is not the case. Not even most North Africans are considered Negroid. The mutation from e-78 to E-V13 is believed to have happened in a time when homosapien sapiens where all dark skinned anyway so skin colour is not much of a factor to determine haplogroups.

 

[albanopolis]

We don't know. Maybe Balkans, maybe Anatolia, maybe Lebanon. We know that E-M78 is Egipt origin and that E-V13 derived from E-M78.

And it is high probability that first E-V13 in the Balkans were Negroids.

Agree! The first E-v13 was negroid, and later the negroid part of E-v13 became non negroid. At least this is your judgement. The problem is there is no negroid E-v13. There is negroid E. And the negroid E is missing in Europe. E-M78 Egyptian is not necessary negroid. Can you explain how did you deduct the conclusion that first e-v13 was negroid?

 

[Maleth]

Agree! The first E-v13 was negroid, and later the negroid part of E-v13 became non negroid. At least this is your judgement. The problem is there is no negroid E-v13. There is negroid E. And the negroid E is missing in Europe. E-M78 Egyptian is not necessary negroid. Can you explain how did you deduct the conclusion that first e-v13 was negroid?

According to main stream believe all homosapiens sapiens were negroid. Diet and climate and the mixing with other homosapiens could have changed the Physiognomy. Not sure maybe new theories would come out, but I think thats what we are led to believe so far.