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Thread: Serbs and Croats origin from Germanic Scirii and Hirri?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    zanipolo, I will not waste my time discussing things with you, because your purpose is not to understand what I write but to attack it and often with very ill arguments or by twisting what i said and without actually reading core of theories that I propose....

    I think that theory I propose makes lot of sense under certain assumptions
    I challenge you because you make no sense , no timing of age and the rubbish that everyone that the slavs absorbed was proto-slavic


    I do realize that...
    and I have cited text with numbered remarks and explained "it is suggested that Scirii and Hirri are tribes of Sclavish Venedi"
    You suggest they where sclavish ....are you a historian? I can suggest something as well!


    he speaks in short text of very large area including "island" of Scandinavia and Finland...also of Cimbri (Denmark)...

    he does not pinpoint where those 4 tribes exactly live except that some writers "as far as Vistula"...which is probably "as close as Vistula" since core of these tribes is on other side of Vistula....

    but in any case those gulfs are just east of Lithuania and whole area south of them all the way to Slovakia is Vistula with its tributaries...
    I do not know where you get your text about Pliny from, but here is another historian

    (a) Ptolomaeus (A.D. 161-182), the famous ancient geographer, mathematician and astronomer, in his treatise Geogr. lib. 3. cap. 5. writes:

    Elattova de eunh vemetai Saomatian, paoa men ton Ouistoulan potamon. Upo touj Ouenedaj, Guuwnej. Eita Finnoi. Eita Boulanej. Uf ouj Foougondiwvej. Eita Auaohnoi, paoa thn cefalhn tou Ouistoula potamou.

    This, when translated into English, means: "The less significant people abide in Sarmatia, near the mouth of the Vistula river. Beyond the Venedi are Guthones. Then the Finns. Then the Boulanes (= Poles). Beyond them are the Frugundians. Then the Avarens, near the head of the Vistula river". Here we notice, that Ptolomaeus enumerated different nations starting from north southward. Hence his statement "beyond the Venedi, are Guthones" is correct. Venedi were the ancient people living near Vindau, in Latvia; and the Guthones living alongside Venedi surely could be no other people but the inhabitants of old Lithuania.





    why is this important?
    Vistula is birth place of Slavic people...
    Russian primary chronicle says proto-Slavs moved from Danube area (Hungary and Bugaria in time of writing translates more or less to north Serbia both above and bellow Danube which are at that time settled with Scor+disci and possibly Pannonian plane with Slavonia and north Bosnia - where Pannonians lived) to Vistula due to Roman empire expanding....

    ....also lower Vistula and upper Vistula is where key I2a-Din South hotspots are apart from Serb settled areas and their previous location in Bohemia....

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap
    from polish historians 2008



    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    Map of Wielbark Culture with divisions on zones and periods (I can't see well # near letter of periods)
    a (orange) - Zone A (200 BC - and of 4th century AC)
    b (blue) - Zone B (150 BC - 200 AC)
    c (yellow) - Zone CN "Gothiskandza" (abt. 70-200 AC)
    d (light yellow) - Zone CS (abt. 80-200 AC)
    e (green) - Zone D (abt. 100-350 AC)

    Clearly there is no slavs in lower of middle vistula if the goths are there....you must mean only the Upper vistula. All these colours are for movement of the Goths, clearly the venedi are further east...in the middle of old baltic prussian lands

    not really
    what I claimed is that Venedi are originally Baltic language speakers of R1a carpathian branches...

    but that around 1st century there is settlement wave in Vistula region from Danube area described by Russian primary chronicle ...

    what I claim is that due to this settlement wave genetics and language of Venedi in Vistula region is affected.....

    so before the settlements they were Baltic speakers, some time after it they are proto-Slavic speakers.....

    these new waves are genetically: R1a-M458 (ancient old in area of Serbia, which shows likely earlier location) and I2a-Din (which shows clear trend of spreading along Danube)

    these are proto-Slavic speakers...they move to live among original Venedi and their culture and language become dominant...

    for neighbouring tribes such as Germans and Finnish there is no big difference as proto-Slavic is more or less branch of Baltic languages.....
    impossible the Venedi where absorbed and became the Vidivarii....from your beloved Jordanes
    The Vidivarii are described by Jordanes in his Getica as a melting pot of tribes who in the mid-6th century lived at the lower Vistula:[1][2]
    Ad litus oceani, ubi tribus faucibus fluenta Vistulae fluminibus ebibuntur, Vidivarii resident ex diversis nationibus aggregati.[3]
    Though differing from the earlier Willenberg culture, some traditions were continued,[2] thus the corresponding archaeological culture is sometimes described as the Vidivarian or widiwar stage of the Willenberg culture. The bearers of the Willenberg culture have been associated with a heterogeneous people comprising Vistula Veneti, Goths, Rugii, and Gepids.[4] One hypothesis, based on the sudden appearance of large amounts of Roman solidi and migrations of other groups after the breakdown of the Hun empire in 453, suggest a partial re-migration of earlier emigrants to their former northern homelands.[2]


    but as I said I believe that early Venedi were speaking Baltic-alike languages which have changed with settlement wave of Pannonians...
    at the time in question Pannonia was a mix of illyrian and celtic people, which pannonians moved north?



    Seneca is explicit that Serians are not Sarmatians (because they also dare to live in Caucasus unguarded from Sarmatians which could be about Serboi of Asian Sarmatia living next to Alans those Serboi are thought to be the same people as later Siraces) ...

    so if Serians rule over Scythians but they are not Sarmatians
    who is left in area except Scirii?
    word association .....very bad

    same Serians he mentions in relation to Danube...

    this is clear overlap with claim of Russian primary chronicle that puts early Slavs in Danube area (described area matches Scordisci and Pannonians) and describes movement from there to Vistula...
    which russian I will check, please name him/them


    Scirii are classified as Alans by Jordanes...and he being educated Goth from influential family should know which tribes are Germanic and which are not....he is not guessing whether tribes are germanic based on whether they live in houses - like Tacitus does.... he knows which tribes are Germanic and which not as it is part of his personal history...maybe they were not Alans, but if Jordanes claims they are something else than Germanic than you can be 100% sure they were not germanic...
    and 40 years ago the slovenians claimed the scirii as settling in stryia.
    Alans where people form the north of the black sea and where replaced by the bulgars....where you going with this


    Pytheas writes
    Pytheus who sailed the baltic in 320BC states

    Pytheas credidit Guttonibus Germaniae genti, accoli Aestuarium oceani, MENTO NOMON nomine, spatio stadiorum sex millium. Ab hoc die navigatione
    insulam abesse Abalum. Illo vero fluctibus advehi et esse concreti maris purgamentum.

    as translated -"Pytheas believed that the Guttones were of German race, living by the Aestuarian sea (Baltic sea), at the mouth of the river named NOMON, at the stretch of 6,000 stadii. Sailing a day. Pytheus never knew of baltic people, so called them germanics, but the river Nomon is stated.
    native land of the Goths was by the Aestuarian sea (by the Baltic sea), exactly where the Aestians (Aestii = Lithuanian ancestors) lived. The same author is still more definite when he points out that they lived nowhere else but at the mouth of NEMON river. And in the original Greek manuscript would be Men to Nouon. Hence the word "MENTO" equals the Greek people, to which means "MOUTH of the RIVER"; --- and the word "NOMON" means "NEMON" (= Niemen).


    looking at old prussian lands and there markers in ftdna - where venedi and aestii lived
    they comprise of the following markers

    R1a: 11%
    R1b: 33%
    N: 35%
    I1: 18%
    others: 3%

    which is the slavic ones?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    I do realize that...and I have cited text with numbered remarks and explained "it is suggested that Scirii and Hirri are tribes of Sclavish Venedi"
    Correct, but its not suggested by Pliny, its suggested by M. Parisot who translated Pliny [Histoire Naturelle de Pline - Ajasson] in the 19th cen. Thats important to note.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    he speaks in short text of very large area including "island" of Scandinavia and Finland...also of Cimbri (Denmark)...
    No, Pliny doesnt mention Cimbric Jutland (Denmark), he mentions the peninsula Cartris. Jutland was known as Cimbria or Chersonesus Cimbrica. Not Cartris.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    he does not pinpoint where those 4 tribes exactly live
    Correct, but he clearly separates them form one another. As does Tacitus, Ptolemy and Strabo

    I agree with you that Tacitus is guessing about the Venedi but he clearly locates them between the Peucini and the Fenni [poss. baltic origin]. with the Peucini having a strange kinship with the Bastarnae further south.

    Y-DNA = Dead End

    I would leave Y-DNA out of it, Y-DNA is a good indicator for modern day regional affiliations, but not for ancient internal Indo-European migrtaions. R1a was already found west of the Elbe river as early as ~2,600 BC [Corded Ware Culture]
    http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.long

    And apparantely the I-M438 complex is Pre-Indo-European to begin with.

    The Sciri

    You connect the Scirii to alot of other Peoples, so lets take a look at the Scirii proper.
    Zosimus and Sidonius inform us that the Scirii are vassals of the Huns and part of the invasions of Uldin (defeated) and into Gaul 451 AD.
    Jordanes (great source) informs us that after Attila's death [453 AD] the Scirii take refuge by the Romans in Scythia Minor and Moesia Inferior.
    Jordanes also tells us about two Scirian uprisings against the Ostrogoths [Valamir], which end in desaster for the Scirii.
    And last but not least, Procopius asserts the Scirii to be a Gothic nation.

    Procopius - De Bello Gothico (550 AD)
    Now it happened that the Romans a short time before had induced the Sciri and Alani and certain other Gothic nations to form an alliance with them;

    Jordanes was a Byzantine of Alani ancestry his father was a certain Alanoviimuthes

    I have a diff. theory of the Slavic origin, and its pretty simple.

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    The Sciri

    You connect the Scirii to alot of other Peoples, so lets take a look at the Scirii proper.
    Zosimus and Sidonius inform us that the Scirii are vassals of the Huns and part of the invasions of Uldin (defeated) and into Gaul 451 AD.
    Jordanes (great source) informs us that after Attila's death [453 AD] the Scirii take refuge by the Romans in Scythia Minor and Moesia Inferior.
    Jordanes also tells us about two Scirian uprisings against the Ostrogoths [Valamir], which end in desaster for the Scirii.
    And last but not least, Procopius asserts the Scirii to be a Gothic nation.

    Procopius - De Bello Gothico (550 AD)
    Now it happened that the Romans a short time before had induced the Sciri and Alani and certain other Gothic nations to form an alliance with them;

    Jordanes was a Byzantine of Alani ancestry his father was a certain Alanoviimuthes

    I have a diff. theory of the Slavic origin, and its pretty simple.
    correct me if I am wrong, but did'nt the Goths hate the scirii so much that they nearly wiped them out as a tribe in and around 100AD. I further recall, the remnants later on , joined the huns for protection as the huns warred the Goths

    Let me know, your slav theory as the map I uploaded early on in the thread is what the current slav historians claim as original slav lands.
    I beleive it makes sense to a degree as well as knowledge of river names in germanic lands was taught to them by the Bastanae.....there might even be a union between bastanae and slavs over time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Correct, but its not suggested by Pliny, its suggested by M. Parisot who translated Pliny [Histoire Naturelle de Pline - Ajasson] in the 19th cen. Thats important to note.
    i thought it is clear as remarks with numbers in historic books are always by editor/translator not by author
    but still it is suggested....

    No, Pliny doesnt mention Cimbric Jutland (Denmark), he mentions the peninsula Cartris. Jutland was known as Cimbria or Chersonesus Cimbrica. Not Cartris.
    Cartris is part of Jutland

    point was that he gives in few sentences overview of very large area from Cimbri to Finnish areas...
    "Some writers state that these regions, as far as the river Vistula, are inhabited by the Sarmati, the Venedi21, the Sciri, and the Hirri22, and that there is a gulf there known by the name of Cylipenus23, at the mouth of which is the island of Latris, after which comes another gulf, that of Lagnus, which borders on the Cimbri. The Cimbrian Promontory, running out into the sea for a great distance, forms a peninsula which bears the name of Cartris24.
    ...
    24 The modern Cape of Skagen on the north of Jutland.
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ighlight=sciri


    Correct, but he clearly separates them form one another. As does Tacitus, Ptolemy and Strabo
    I separate as well...
    as I claim based on Seneca's statement that Serians/Scirii rulled over Venedi... they were separate tribe but also rulled over Venedi influencing their genetics and language (and gene flow also went other way around as well)....

    e.g. I2a-Din south is younger than I2a-Din north and is found only where proposed locations of Scirii proper are - on Vistula first close to Baltic, later closer to Carpathians and Black sea...
    while I2a-Din north is found all over Scythia...


    Y-DNA = Dead End
    I would leave Y-DNA out of it, Y-DNA is a good indicator for modern day regional affiliations, but not for ancient internal Indo-European migrtaions.
    without enough clear historic data, YDNA is only clue to what actually happened..


    R1a was already found west of the Elbe river as early as ~2,600 BC [Corded Ware Culture]
    http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.long
    there are different branches of R1a...they are waves of different people..
    the one you talk about expanded to Europe much earlier and is called "old Scandinavian branch"
    http://r1a.org/3.htm#13



    The Sciri
    You connect the Scirii to alot of other Peoples, so lets take a look at the Scirii proper.
    Zosimus and Sidonius inform us that the Scirii are vassals of the Huns and part of the invasions of Uldin (defeated) and into Gaul 451 AD.
    Jordanes (great source) informs us that after Attila's death [453 AD] the Scirii take refuge by the Romans in Scythia Minor and Moesia Inferior.
    Jordanes also tells us about two Scirian uprisings against the Ostrogoths [Valamir], which end in desaster for the Scirii.
    And last but not least, Procopius asserts the Scirii to be a Gothic nation.

    Procopius - De Bello Gothico (550 AD)
    Now it happened that the Romans a short time before had induced the Sciri and Alani and certain other Gothic nations to form an alliance with them;
    are Alani Gothic nation?
    they are known to be iranian people
    so for Procopius Gothic nation prob means living under rule of Goths or being tightly connected to them


    Jordanes was a Byzantine of Alani ancestry his father was a certain Alanoviimuthes
    Jordanes is in many sources said to be of Gothic origin...
    e.g. http://books.google.nl/books?id=1piMMqjAf1MC&lpg=PA589&dq=Jordanes%22goth ic%20origin%22%20%20Croke&pg=PA589#v=onepage&q=Jor danes%22gothic%20origin%22%20%20Croke&f=false

    I have a diff. theory of the Slavic origin, and its pretty simple.
    can you share it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I challenge you because you make no sense , no timing of age and the rubbish that everyone that the slavs absorbed was proto-slavic[
    nope, you make no sense.. you keep quoting some suspicious sources...and discrediting known historical sources...
    I do not claim that all people absorbed by Slavs are proto-Slavic...


    You suggest they where sclavish ....are you a historian? I can suggest something as well!
    its clear that it is not my suggestion, but a suggestion of a historian who translated book of Pliny..
    visit the link and read...
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...t=sciri#note24



    I do not know where you get your text about Pliny from, but here is another historian

    (a) Ptolomaeus (A.D. 161-182), the famous ancient geographer, mathematician and astronomer, in his treatise Geogr. lib. 3. cap. 5. writes:

    Elattova de eunh vemetai Saomatian, paoa men ton Ouistoulan potamon. Upo touj Ouenedaj, Guuwnej. Eita Finnoi. Eita Boulanej. Uf ouj Foougondiwvej. Eita Auaohnoi, paoa thn cefalhn tou Ouistoula potamou.

    This, when translated into English, means: "The less significant people abide in Sarmatia, near the mouth of the Vistula river. Beyond the Venedi are Guthones. Then the Finns. Then the Boulanes (= Poles). Beyond them are the Frugundians. Then the Avarens, near the head of the Vistula river". Here we notice, that Ptolomaeus enumerated different nations starting from north southward. Hence his statement "beyond the Venedi, are Guthones" is correct. Venedi were the ancient people living near Vindau, in Latvia; and the Guthones living alongside Venedi surely could be no other people but the inhabitants of old Lithuania.
    don't know how credible source this is, but:

    this is order on Vistula from north to south...
    there is no Finnish haplogroup N anywhere in mid Vistula...
    Finnoi are not Finnish, but Fenni
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni

    keep in mind that Estonians and Finish people call Russia Vennema and Venäjä respectively
    in my opinion this Fenni/Venni are root word for Slo-veni
    slo could come from "slobodni" = free
    perhaps ancestors of Slovaks and Slovenians...
    iBoulanes expand to nortwest and Slo-Fenni to south






    Clearly there is no slavs in lower of middle vistula if the goths are there....you must mean only the Upper vistula. All these colours are for movement of the Goths, clearly the venedi are further east...in the middle of old baltic prussian lands
    Goths are not all population of all areas they keep under control...
    this is also why Procopius mistakenly counts Alani (and Scirii) in Gothic nations...
    it is like saying Kurds are turkish nation, because majority of them lives in Turkey....





    at the time in question Pannonia was a mix of illyrian and celtic people, which pannonians moved north?
    don't mix Roman province ofIllyricum with actual Illyria...
    actual Illyria most likely never extended much further north than Montenegro....

    naming of provinces in Roman empire was intended to create melting pots in which actual ethnical identities would be weakened and eventually lost....e.g. province of Macedonia was more north than actual Macedonia.....its like if you would name half of Turkey and of Iran - Iranian province, and half of Turkey and half of Greece - as Turkic province, and half of Greece and half of Albania - Greece province... and everywhere only official language is latin... so you deliberatelly confuse national identities and create melting pot that speaks latin as that is only language both ethnicities in misnamed province will understand....

    Pannonians are neither Illyrians nor Celts...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...bes_in_Illyria

    Pannoni that migrate northeast (towards Dacia) can easily be the same people as Fenni in Vistula region where Russian primary chronicle says Danubian Slavs settled...
    do you see the similarity in tribal names Pannoni and Fenni?
    and similarity with Finnish and Estonian words for Russians (Venni)
    I do not say tribal name changed..
    its just written down differently in different times and languages...




    which russian I will check, please name him/them
    Russian primary chronicle is medival russian document that captures their memory about their origin
    it is written down in year 1113
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Primary_Chronicle
    here's the text
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

    and 40 years ago the slovenians claimed the scirii as settling in stryia.
    Alans where people form the north of the black sea and where replaced by the bulgars....where you going with this
    Alani are iranian (sarmatian) nation from Caucasus..
    they were also living all over Europe..
    went to Spain with Suebi and Vandali

    iranian speaking Ossetians are considered to origin from Alani
    their main haplogroup is G, which is in accordance with origin from Alani

    interestingly in north Ossetians there is some I2a-Dinaric
    and Serboi tribe was just northeast of them in Asian Sarmatia

    this is why Serboi are considered Alanian/Sarmatian in origin...
    but I make claim that Serboi/Serbi that Ptolomeus captures in Caucasus are those Serians that Seneca mention as living unguarded among Sarmatians...
    such an expression strongly suggests that they are not Sarmatians...
    also its clear that they are not Alani but just their neighbours

    Jordanes puts Scirii in Alani... i think he does that because they are alies and have nearby settlements in Caucasus and perhaps elsewhere..
    that is Serians like Alani have settlements in various not directly connected locations....

    whole point of such a strategy is in trading...
    Serians/Seres are known as traders across Asia...
    Siraces on east shores of Black sea are traders....



    click for larger map
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ma...es_ca_1770.jpg

    looking at old prussian lands and there markers in ftdna - where venedi and aestii lived
    they comprise of the following markers

    R1a: 11%
    R1b: 33%
    N: 35%
    I1: 18%
    others: 3%

    which is the slavic ones?
    this is non-sense...
    I am speaking about Vistula river area...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    nope, you make no sense.. you keep quoting some suspicious sources...and discrediting known historical sources...
    I do not claim that all people absorbed by Slavs are proto-Slavic...



    its clear that it is not my suggestion, but a suggestion of a historian who translated book of Pliny..
    visit the link and read...
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...t=sciri#note24



    don't know how credible source this is, but:

    this is order on Vistula from north to south...
    there is no Finnish haplogroup N anywhere in mid Vistula...
    Finnoi are not Finnish, but Fenni
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni

    keep in mind that Estonians and Finish people call Russia Vennema and Venäjä respectively
    in my opinion this Fenni/Venni are root word for Slo-veni
    slo could come from "slobodni" = free
    perhaps ancestors of Slovaks and Slovenians...
    iBoulanes expand to nortwest and Slo-Fenni to south







    Goths are not all population of all areas they keep under control...
    this is also why Procopius mistakenly counts Alani (and Scirii) in Gothic nations...
    it is like saying Kurds are turkish nation, because majority of them lives in Turkey....






    don't mix Roman province ofIllyricum with actual Illyria...
    actual Illyria most likely never extended much further north than Montenegro....

    naming of provinces in Roman empire was intended to create melting pots in which actual ethnical identities would be weakened and eventually lost....e.g. province of Macedonia was more north than actual Macedonia.....its like if you would name half of Turkey and of Iran - Iranian province, and half of Turkey and half of Greece - as Turkic province, and half of Greece and half of Albania - Greece province... and everywhere only official language is latin... so you deliberatelly confuse national identities and create melting pot that speaks latin as that is only language both ethnicities in misnamed province will understand....

    Pannonians are neither Illyrians nor Celts...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...bes_in_Illyria

    Pannoni that migrate northeast (towards Dacia) can easily be the same people as Fenni in Vistula region where Russian primary chronicle says Danubian Slavs settled...
    do you see the similarity in tribal names Pannoni and Fenni?
    and similarity with Finnish and Estonian words for Russians (Venni)
    I do not say tribal name changed..
    its just written down differently in different times and languages...






    Russian primary chronicle is medival russian document that captures their memory about their origin
    it is written down in year 1113
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Primary_Chronicle
    here's the text
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf


    Alani are iranian (sarmatian) nation from Caucasus..
    they were also living all over Europe..
    went to Spain with Suebi and Vandali

    iranian speaking Ossetians are considered to origin from Alani
    their main haplogroup is G, which is in accordance with origin from Alani

    interestingly in north Ossetians there is some I2a-Dinaric
    and Serboi tribe was just northeast of them in Asian Sarmatia

    this is why Serboi are considered Alanian/Sarmatian in origin...
    but I make claim that Serboi/Serbi that Ptolomeus captures in Caucasus are those Serians that Seneca mention as living unguarded among Sarmatians...
    such an expression strongly suggests that they are not Sarmatians...
    also its clear that they are not Alani but just their neighbours

    Jordanes puts Scirii in Alani... i think he does that because they are alies and have nearby settlements in Caucasus and perhaps elsewhere..
    that is Serians like Alani have settlements in various not directly connected locations....

    whole point of such a strategy is in trading...
    Serians/Seres are known as traders across Asia...
    Siraces on east shores of Black sea are traders....



    click for larger map
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ma...es_ca_1770.jpg


    this is non-sense...
    I am speaking about Vistula river area...

    why don't you concentrate on something more real like the article below

    http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/peucini-tribes/

    Who Were The Bastarnae ? Filed under: Archaeology, History, Numismatics5 Comments
    August 3, 2012


    Mac Congail




    ‘…the Bastarnæ, the bravest nation of all.
    (Appianus, Mithridatic Wars. 10:69)



    The most enigmatic ‘barbarian’ people to appear in southeastern Europe in the late Iron Age are undoubtedly the Bastarnae (Βαστάρναι / Βαστέρναι).
    While archaeological/numismatic evidence indicates that the Bastarnae tribes had reached the Danube Delta as early as the second half of the 4th c. BC (see ‘Bastarnae Coinage’ and ‘Peucini’ articles), they first appear in historical sources in connection with the events of 179 BC as allies of Philip V of Macedonia in his war with Rome (Livy 40:5, 57-58), and remain a constant factor in the history of southeastern Europe for over 500 years.
    Due to the fact that archaeologists have failed to associate a particular archaeological culture with the Bastarnae, the ethnic origin of this people has hitherto remained shrouded in mystery, with a lack of clarity on whether they were initially of Scythian, Germanic or Celtic origin. However, as illustrated below, a chronological analysis of the ancient sources relating to the Bastarnae in general, and archaeological, numismatic and linguistic evidence from the territory of the Bastarnae Peucini tribe in particular, enables us to finally shed some light on this question.





    Silver Bastarnae tetradrachma of the Huşi-Vovrieşti type.
    Obverse: bearded head of Zeus right; reverse: horseman riding right, star before, symbols below (see ‘Bastarnae Coins’ article)






    The Sources

    Later authors such as Dio Cassius (3rd c. AD – Dio LI.23.3, 24.2) and Zosimus (late 5th/early 6th c. AD – Zosimus I.34) define the Bastarnae as ‘Scythians’, and to a great extent this is true. By the late Roman period the Bastarnae tribes had been living in the region vaguely referred to as ‘Scythia’ for over half a millennium, and mixing with the local tribes (‘mixed marriages are giving them to some extent the vile appearance of the Sarmatians’ – Tac. Ger. 46).


    instead of talking to yourself about the venedi when they are proto-letts/latvian Venedi who came from the vends

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends

    more slavic destruction of the baltic people...is that what you want?

    The venedi clearly are shown to be by the sea, they would definetly would have been sailors and also as per you fenni article - The Fenni are first mentioned by Cornelius Tacitus in Germania in 98 A.D. Their location is uncertain, due to the vagueness of Tacitus' account:"they (Venedi) overrun in their predatory excursions all the woody and mountainous tracts between the Peucini and the Fenni".[1][2]
    fought against the incursion of the fenni and peucini. The fenni according to some historians are also present on the eastern banks of the middle vistula opposite the gepids on the west bank

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    there are different branches of R1a...they are waves of different people..
    the one you talk about expanded to Europe much earlier and is called "old Scandinavian branch"
    http://r1a.org/3.htm#13
    Good point
    But unfortunately the exact R1a branch of Eulau is not known; but acc. to the Strontium isotope analyses (Teeth) the Males and Children were locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    I claim based on Seneca's statement that Serians/Scirii rulled over Venedi... they were separate tribe but also rulled over Venedi influencing their genetics and language (and gene flow also went other way around as well)....
    You would have to post a link to that claim, im not familiar with Seneca claiming that the Scirii are the Serians and that they (the Serians) rule over the Venedi (the Baltic Venedi?).

    from what i know:
    1.) Jordanes places the Scirii amongst the Alani
    2.) Procopius places the Scirii amongst the Goths [with the Alani]
    3.) Pliny places the Scirii on the Baltic

    None claim any connections to the Venedi.

    Slavic Origin theory

    Very simple,

    Procopius and Jordanes [both 6th cen AD] are the first to mention the Slavs [Sclaveni and Antes]
    Procopius considers the Antes and the Sclaveni to be the ancient Spori and considers them to be Nomads.
    Jordanes claims that the Antes and Sclaveni are both peoples of the ancient Baltic Venedi and together inhabit the land between Vistula, Dniester and Dnieper.

    Jordanes - Getica (~550 AD)
    Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.
    The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the Sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart.


    So from Procopius and Jordanes we are informed that the Slavs are Antes and Sclaveni and if Jordanes is correct that the ancient baltic Venedi of Pliny, Ptolemy and Tacitus; are indeed the Proto-Slavs and the Antes and Sclaveni the off-springs; than the entire Balto-Slavic (Indo-European) complex is well explained and historically attested.

    Some open questions remain:
    1.) What does Tacitus mean by calling the Venedi [proto-slavs] Germanic and Sarmatian ?
    Is Tacitus informing us that the proto-slavs [Venedi] are a mix of Germanic and Sarmatian ?
    which would explain Polish Sarmatism and Sarmatian origin theory
    2.) Who are the Peuceni and Bastarnae ? are they equally proto-slavic ?
    3.) Who are the Vandals (Vindili) ? and the Slavic Wends of Adam von Bremen ? - This is the real interesting Question!
    4.) What role do the Sarmatians play in total in the Slavic origin ???
    they are neighbours of the Venedi [Pliny] and "the Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways" - Tacitus.

    The Sarmatians couldnt just have disappeared, especially not between Dniester and Dnieper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    correct me if I am wrong, but did'nt the Goths hate the scirii so much that they nearly wiped them out as a tribe in and around 100AD. I further recall, the remnants later on , joined the huns for protection as the huns warred the Goths
    Not in 100 AD, much later.
    Jordanes states that after the Scirii killed king Valamir the Ostrogoths went to war and annihilated the Scirii, Valamir was killed ~465 AD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    instead of talking to yourself about the venedi when they are proto-letts/latvian Venedi who came from the vends

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends

    more slavic destruction of the baltic people...is that what you want?

    The venedi clearly are shown to be by the sea, they would definetly would have been sailors and also as per you fenni article - The Fenni are first mentioned by Cornelius Tacitus in Germania in 98 A.D. Their location is uncertain, due to the vagueness of Tacitus' account:"they (Venedi) overrun in their predatory excursions all the woody and mountainous tracts between the Peucini and the Fenni".[1][2]
    fought against the incursion of the fenni and peucini. The fenni according to some historians are also present on the eastern banks of the middle vistula opposite the gepids on the west bank
    well, let me point out the following from the link that you have used:

    The Vends were a small tribe who lived in the twelfth-sixteenth centuries in the area around the town of Wenden (now Cēsis) in what is now north-central Latvia
    ...
    Prior to their arrival in the area of Wenden in the 12th century, the Vends are believed to have settled in Wynda county (Latvian: Ventava) by the Venta River near the present city of Ventspils in western Latvia. Their proximity to more numerous Finnic and Baltic tribes inclined the Vends to ally with the German crusaders
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends

    Existence of Vends is in fact proof that tribal name Venedi is not Balt related.

    Because those Vends:
    1) are small tribe surrounded by Baltic and Finnish
    2) they feel jeopardised from Balts and Finnish and allie with Germans
    3) name of their town is completely changed when it was overtaken by Balts, suggesting that name Vend was completely foreign to Balts

    the glotochronolgy shows that .Bulgarian is estimated to separate from proto Slavic around 130AD and east Slavic at 270 AD..method shows that serbo-croat branch splits from west Slavic around 670 AD which fits with known historical facts....
    [Starostin, presented in Santa Fe, 2004]

    Baltic languages are very similar to Balto-Slavic and Slavic languages start of like dialect of this language
    this implies that Baltic community has continued living in isolation, while proto-Slavic area was exposed to interaction with tribes of different languages and was therefore changing faster....

    furthermore east Slavic (language of Anti) spliting from proto-Slavic branch as early as 250 AD tells us that Slavs were at that time already in central Europe....

    So, Venedi = proto-Slavs
    and I believe they have migrated to central Europe from Pannonia and Balkan as Russian primary chronicle and Dalmil's chronicle suggest... as this migration was caused by spreading of Roman empire, we can set the time frame of the movement to the beginnng of first century AD or somewhat earlier

    as I have explained, this is in genetics represented with displacement of R1-M458 out of its high diversity area (ex-Yugoslavia) and with appearence of I2a-Din in Venedi and Sarmatian area but not in Baltic areas...

    considering that Antes have somewhat different tribal names but still with recognizable derivation from original tribal name Veneti, we can postulate that Ants lived north of Danube near Black sea coast even before Danubian Slavs moved to north... they spoke the same language with Danubian Slavs suggesting that there was continuity of proto-Slavs along Danube (that is north of it in east parts) for long period of time ....

    this fits well with Jordanes saying all of early Slavs (Venedi, Sclaveni and Antes) are from Venethi race...
    and with account of Russian primary chronicle saying
    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie
    the only reason you try so much to undermine Venethi origin of Slavic people, is that it rightfully puts strong question mark on who were actually Illyrians...

    I am fine with idea that they were not proto-Slavic, but I believe their actual spread was never more north from Montenegro...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    You would have to post a link to that claim, im not familiar with Seneca claiming that the Scirii are the Serians and that they (the Serians) rule over the Venedi (the Baltic Venedi?).
    [369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.

    Seneca - Thyestes
    27. i.e. the frozen surface.
    28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

    http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

    Seneca says that Serians live around Danube and also rule over Scythians and have outpost in Caucaus among Sarmatians (hence they are not Sarmatians) and even on red sea....
    "for fleece famous" - is reference to the area of Seres in south Siberia / northwest China where silk was made...

    I claimed that Scirii is same tribal name as Serians
    because if Sclaveni = Sloveni
    than Scirii/Scirians = Sirians or Serians

    but my interpretation that Venedi are Scythians is probably wrong...

    Venedi are probably also Serians (as I have explained this is probably religion oriented name related to Dagon worship and name of his wife Ishara/Ishtar/Danu(Asura)/slavic Zorya ) and according to Russian primary chronicle they move from Danube (river related to godess Danu ... it is also known as Isthar) area to the area of Vistula in times when Roman empire spreads to their areas (first century AD)...

    in fact, I make mistake trying to relate Serians to I2a-Din... Scirii might be I2a-Din, but Serians in general are more likely to be R1a


    Serians trading routes and settlements in Asia fit well with spread of R1a... this happened long time ago...

    and corresponds to eastern eurasian branch of R1a
    http://r1a.org/3.htm#11

    e.g. subbranch of eastern eurasian branch found in modern Kyrgiz is dated to have separated from main branch in 1000 BC
    which is exactly when the trading center Sayram came to existence together with town of same name in northwest China... those are Seres or "Serians for the fleece famous"..Seres is in narrow sense area in northwest China where silk was made...in wider sense, it is an arc from that place to India....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayram_(city)




    Slavic Origin theory

    Very simple,

    Procopius and Jordanes [both 6th cen AD] are the first to mention the Slavs [Sclaveni and Antes]
    Procopius considers the Antes and the Sclaveni to be the ancient Spori and considers them to be Nomads.
    Jordanes claims that the Antes and Sclaveni are both peoples of the ancient Baltic Venedi and together inhabit the land between Vistula, Dniester and Dnieper.
    ancient Spori might be same thing as with Sciri - corruption of name Serian

    J]

    So from Procopius and Jordanes we are informed that the Slavs are Antes and Sclaveni and if Jordanes is correct that the ancient baltic Venedi of Pliny, Ptolemy and Tacitus; are indeed the Proto-Slavs and the Antes and Sclaveni the off-springs; than the entire Balto-Slavic (Indo-European) complex is well explained and historically attested.
    exactly,Jordanes clearrly pinpoints that they are all from the race of Venethi, but many people on this forum keep denying any link of proto-Slavs with Venedi and Venethic race...
    reason to that is political... Albanian current conquest towards north is based on them learning that they are Illyrians and that their country was destroyed by Slavic invaders....so they cannot allow that proto-Slavs are in any relation to Venethi as there are speculations of Illyrians being Venethi related...


    Some open questions remain:
    1.) What does Tacitus mean by calling the Venedi [proto-slavs] Germanic and Sarmatian ?
    Is Tacitus informing us that the proto-slavs [Venedi] are a mix of Germanic and Sarmatian ?
    Tacitus has no good criteria.... his criteria is not language, but whether people live in houses (= germans) or as nomads (=Sarmatians)

    which would explain Polish Sarmatism and Sarmatian origin theory
    2.) Who are the Peuceni and Bastarnae ? are they equally proto-slavic ?
    3.) Who are the Vandals (Vindili) ? and the Slavic Wends of Adam von Bremen ? - This is the real interesting
    4.) What role do the Sarmatians play in total in the Slavic origin ???
    good questions

    they are neighbours of the Venedi [Pliny] and "the Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways" - Tacitus.
    what he says is that their culture is alike to sarmatian, but they live in houses so they cannot be Sarmatians and hence must be germans...

    The Sarmatians couldnt just have disappeared, especially not between Dniester and Dnieper.
    maybe they were just warriors and rulling elite....
    so their iranian language was lost with time...

    many ancient people disappeared...
    Alani were Sarmatians...
    today iranic speaking Osetians claim origin from Alani and I think rightfully...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism This is for you "how yes no 3"! And an other one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism This is for you "how yes no 3"! And an other one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
    i can only agree

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    well, let me point out the following from the link that you have used:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends

    Existence of Vends is in fact proof that tribal name Venedi is not Balt related.

    Because those Vends:
    1) are small tribe surrounded by Baltic and Finnish
    2) they feel jeopardised from Balts and Finnish and allie with Germans
    3) name of their town is completely changed when it was overtaken by Balts, suggesting that name Vend was completely foreign to Balts

    the glotochronolgy shows that .Bulgarian is estimated to separate from proto Slavic around 130AD and east Slavic at 270 AD..method shows that serbo-croat branch splits from west Slavic around 670 AD which fits with known historical facts....
    [Starostin, presented in Santa Fe, 2004]

    Baltic languages are very similar to Balto-Slavic and Slavic languages start of like dialect of this language
    this implies that Baltic community has continued living in isolation, while proto-Slavic area was exposed to interaction with tribes of different languages and was therefore changing faster....

    furthermore east Slavic (language of Anti) spliting from proto-Slavic branch as early as 250 AD tells us that Slavs were at that time already in central Europe....

    So, Venedi = proto-Slavs
    and I believe they have migrated to central Europe from Pannonia and Balkan as Russian primary chronicle and Dalmil's chronicle suggest... as this migration was caused by spreading of Roman empire, we can set the time frame of the movement to the beginnng of first century AD or somewhat earlier

    as I have explained, this is in genetics represented with displacement of R1-M458 out of its high diversity area (ex-Yugoslavia) and with appearence of I2a-Din in Venedi and Sarmatian area but not in Baltic areas...

    considering that Antes have somewhat different tribal names but still with recognizable derivation from original tribal name Veneti, we can postulate that Ants lived north of Danube near Black sea coast even before Danubian Slavs moved to north... they spoke the same language with Danubian Slavs suggesting that there was continuity of proto-Slavs along Danube (that is north of it in east parts) for long period of time ....

    this fits well with Jordanes saying all of early Slavs (Venedi, Sclaveni and Antes) are from Venethi race...
    and with account of Russian primary chronicle saying


    the only reason you try so much to undermine Venethi origin of Slavic people, is that it rightfully puts strong question mark on who were actually Illyrians...

    I am fine with idea that they were not proto-Slavic, but I believe their actual spread was never more north from Montenegro...

    LOL, old theories still persist

    read link on what the fabricated venethi is
    http://www.academia.edu/227794/Hidin...Slavic_Venethi

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism This is for you "how yes no 3"! And an other one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
    I assure you it is not sophism, but it can be fallacy to some extent.

    I would like to use opportunity to apologize to Albanians for my paranoia about certain forum members being so against recognizing that Slavs are of Venethi race due to possible link of Venethi and Illyrians...Well, I am from Serbia and after events in 90s people from Serbia tend to be paranoic about conspiracies against them and the truth.

    Regarding Albanians, I believe that modern Albanian language stems mostly from the language of Dardanians who have escaped romanisation by moving to the mountains of northern Albania during Roman empire. While there must be considerable Illyrian genetics in Albania proper, I think that trying to link Albanian language to Illyrian is fallacy. Reason to think so is that from dozen of Illyrian words whose meaning is captured in acient texts most have nothing to do with Albanan. Since Illyrians lived on sea coasts that were covered with Roman empire settlements, I think those people were romanized and the language was lost...

    now, let me explain my reasoning about Slavic people and than we can together try to determine where is fallacy in my thinking....

    1) Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it...

    For me this is a clue that search for Slavic origin should be directed towards Zeruiani who are either proto-Slavs or their overlords... but who are they? if their state is big it must be recorded in history

    2) Seneca speaks of Serians with description that gives impression of giant state all over Euroasia. Now Serians and Zeruiani is easily same tribal name recorded in German and Latin...

    3) Seneca mentions that they are for fleece famous, which relates them to Seres area of northwest China and arc from that place to India....this is ancient trading route... so we can confirm Serians in Asia

    4) Seneca mention Serians in relation to Danube and rulling over scattered Scythians
    rulling over scattered Scythians would easily pinpoint to Sarmatians, which would fit nice with Jordanes claiming that Scirii (Scirians) are Alans (=Sarmatians)

    5) but Seneca says they live also in Caucaus unguarded from Sarmatians
    this means they are not Sarmatians but perhaps related to them or allied with them...
    we also know that Scirii attack Goths and expect Sarmatians to help them, but since such help doesnot arrive they are in Black sea area almost destroyed by Goths

    6) Dalmil's chronicle says that Czechs origin from Poles who lived in Croatia that is a land in Serbian language area, from this I made link that perhaps Serians = Serbs.. Serboi and also Siraces tribes are captured in Caucasus just northeast and northwest of Alani, which explains why they may be seen as Alans

    7) Serians around Danube and Serians rulling over scattered Scythians are puzzle....
    only big tribes with related names are Scordisci on Danube and Scirii close to Venedi
    so I have assumed that Scirii (and perhaps Scordisc) are those Serians

    8) Russian primary chronicle says early Slavs lived along Danube and moved to Vistula region due to spreading of Roman empire and it explicitly names Serbs and Croats among those tribes...

    9) along Danube in that time are Scordisci and they didnot stay there as Strabo says
    The Scordisci lived along the Ister and were divided into two tribes called the Great Scordisci and the Little Scordisci. The former lived between two rivers that empty into the Ister — the Noarus,342 which flows past Segestica, and the Margus343 (by some called the Bargus), whereas the Little Scordisci lived on the far side of this river,344 and their territory bordered on that of the Triballi and the Mysi.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...trabo/7E*.html


    so, he says they lived along Danube...
    thus, Scordisci might be among people that Russian primary chronicle mentions moving from Danube to Vistula area and thus giving Scirii...

    10) Karlovac rodoslov says that Serbs worshiped Dagon and that Dacians got their name after Dagon, Serbs got their name after Ser. Now this implies that Serbs are Serians. But who is Ser?

    Ser is wife of Dagon, and from what I can see known in mythology under names Isthar, Ishara, Danu (Asura) and i think in Slavic mythology Dagon and Ser are transformed to Dajbog and Zorya...

    curiously Ishara is in Asia worshiped by Hurrians and Syrians...
    while we have same worship in Serbs that I link to Sciri and Hirri

    Danube is linked to this river goddess, both via name origin from Danu and in its old name Ishtar.... so it makes sense that early Serbs lived around Danube as Russian primary chronicle states



    11) I2a-Din south is young branch and unlike I2a-Din north that is spread accross east Europe, it only exists in Serb settled areas, in Bohemia from where Serbs came to Serbia, and hotspots in two locations around Vistula - upper and lower Vistula which does match supposed settlemt areas of Scirii....

    also biggest hotspot of I2a-Din is Galicia, clearly named after Galatians or Celts
    Scordisci are also known as Galatae according to Strabo...


    12) so far so good.....but Scordisci are Celtic speakers, Scirii is not celtic tribal name...
    and west Slavs according to Dalmil's chronicle live in area of Serbian language...

    13) furthermore, trade routes in Asia that match locations of Serians are related to eastern euroasian R1a and not to I2a-Din....

    14) furthermore, Scirii are of disputed origin - mentioned as Goths, Alani, turkic... as I explained Alani (Sarmatian) makes most sense... but according to Seneca, Serians dare to live unguarded among Sarmatians which implies they are not Sarmatians..

    15) who are Scytians that Seneca's Serians rulle over?
    if Serians are Scirii than they might have rulled over Venedi...
    but are Venedi same people as Scythians? and what is their language Baltic or proto-Slavic....

    16) chroncicle of priest Dukljanin says Serbs and Croats are Goths in origin...it also says that Bulgarians were big settlement wave that spoke the same language

    17) language study of common Slavic words in Slavic languages shows that Bulgarian split from common Slavic around 130 AD, while east Slavic separated around 270 AD and Serbo-Croat split from west Slavic around 670 AD...

    18) I have tried to explain it with genetics...
    Venedi and Antes would origin from Carpathian branches of R1a

    people moving from Danube area to Vistula would bring R1a-M458 (exclusively European branch and ancient old in Serbia) and I2a-Din... and would affect language....
    but it may have been other way around as well, that new settlers accepted the language of people they settled among....

    so, somewhere in points 12-18 I got lost in making a theory....as there was too much contradicting data

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    [QUOTE=how yes no 3;406149

    Regarding Albanians, I believe that modern Albanian language stems mostly from the language of Dardanians who have escaped romanisation by moving to the mountains of northern Albania during Roman empire. While there must be considerable Illyrian genetics in Albania proper, I think that trying to link Albanian language to Illyrian is fallacy. Reason to think so is that from dozen of Illyrian words whose meaning is captured in acient texts most have nothing to do with Albanan. Since Illyrians lived on sea coasts that were covered with Roman empire settlements, I think those people were romanized and the language was lost...

    [/QUOTE]

    One of the only things I agree with you on.


    The moderator ( IF HE EXISTS) I am still waiting for my notes to be placed..........has ruined my notes to you.
    Anyway, I really, really do not understand why you ignore the logical people called the Bastanae as proto-slav, they lived nearly exactly where the current slavic historian say is the original slavic homeland.......what have you got against this.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    One of the only things I agree with you on.


    The moderator ( IF HE EXISTS) I am still waiting for my notes to be placed..........has ruined my notes to you.
    Anyway, I really, really do not understand why you ignore the logical people called the Bastanae as proto-slav, they lived nearly exactly where the current slavic historian say is the original slavic homeland.......what have you got against this.?
    Bastarnae are way too small tribe...
    they are not influential nor strong enough nor culturally developed enough to impose the language to so many people......so Bastarnae may be among proto-Slavic people, but not the key core of them...

    it must be a tribe with large state and Bavarian geographer leaves data that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... and this large state is to certain extent confirmed by Seneca's accounts of Serians in large areas of Europe and Asia... so, Serians/Zeruiani are in my opinion key to Slavic origin...
    Karlovac geneaology (rodoslov) expalins that all Serbs worshiped Dagon and related to that were named after Ser, which also pinpoints to Serians..
    but could Serians have been the same tribal name as Scirii/Scirians (linguistically this is the same logic as roman historians writing Sloveni as Sclaveni)...and would Serians be overlords of proto-Slavic people or among proto-Slavic people....

    playing word associations....
    if Scirii and Hirri would be origin of tribal names of to Serbs and Croats, Bastarnae could be origin of Bosnian name...
    but even I do not think its very likely...

    I am curious whether Dacians ...
    note that if we look genetics of Romanians, it is very close to the one of Serbs....

    Karlovac rodoslov says

    "All Serbs worshipped Dagon. From Dagon the Dagonians and Dacians received their names; From Ser, all the Serbs.""


    such a statement suggests some relation of Serbs with Dacians, at least regarding religion...
    but it also clearly sets them apart

    to me it makes sense that Ser people (people who worship Ishtar/Ishara/Ser/Asura/Danu) live around the river named after Danu/Asura/Ser/IshtarIshara...
    this river is Danube...
    and that Dacians live near them....


    in lower Danube on one coast are Dacians on other are Thracians and Scordisci
    in upper Danube Scordisci are on both sides and Dacians are their neighbours...

    .. among Thracians is also tribe with name Serdi that comes to them from area of Scordisci.... Scordisci are Celts....that origin from Boii and De administrando imperio says that Serbs come from land that they in own language call Boiki (and that based on further description can be only Bohemia where another I2a-Din south hotspot is together with set of place names containing Srby) where they have also originally dwellt..

    furthermore if Serian is about religion...how would you call Boii that are Serians by religion
    perhaps Serian Boii or SerBoii?


    also -dava endings of Dacian towns makes me curious...
    tvdjava in serbo-croat = fortress, stronghold
    which could be coin word from tvrd(strong) + dava

    but fortress in other Slavic languages
    kreposti - russian
    forteca- ukrainian
    krepasci - belarus
    pevnost - slovak & czech
    twierdza - polish
    trdnjava - slovenian


    regarding polish ending -dza, diza is thracian word for fortiified settlement
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

    so, polish have thracian ending -diza
    serbs and croats dacian ending - dava
    slovenians have ending -njava or -dnjava

    and in other languages it is completely different - in ukrainian its loan word perhaps from Vikings... that founded Kievan Rus state in teritory of Ukraine...

    now time for
    some word associations:

    before reading be aware that the place names named after tribes are never found in mid of their living space but a bit further from its borders, where their settlements stand out by their ethnicity...

    in west most Dacia in Banat region there was stronghold Zuridava, which could be Seri(an) dava (Serian fortress) as Karlovac rodoslov sets Serbs as named after Ser and related in some way to Dacians...


    the Danish philologist and historian Gudmund Schütte to assume that Ziridava and Zurobara are one and the same.[7] This idea is deemed erroneous alongside with many other assumed duplications of names, by the Romanian historian and archaeologistVasile Pârvan in his work Getica.[8] Pârvan reviewed all localities mentioned in Ptolemy's Geographia, analyzing and verifying all data available to him at the time. He points out that Ziri and Zuro (meaning water) are the roots of two different Geto-Dacianwords.[9]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziridava

    Ziri means water in Dacian
    and Ser or Ishara or Istar or Danu (Asura) is water goddess in indo-european and middle east religions...

    Zurobara (Greek: Ζουρόβαρα) was a Dacian town located in today's Banat region in Romania.
    ...
    Unlike many other Dacian towns mentioned by Ptolemy, Zurobara is missing from Tabula Peutingeriana (1st–4th century AD), an itinerarium showing the cursus publicus, the road network in the Roman Empire.[4]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurobara

    it may have been missing because perhaps people who lived in area moved elsewhere (perhaps to Vistula according to Russian primary chronicle)... note that Strabo says how Scordisci lived along Danube...


    Zurobara name (that could have been a spelling variant for Zuropara[8]) was interpreted initially as "strong city" where: the ending term of name "bara" / "vara" means ‘city’ (the same as Thracian "para") and the first term of the name "Zuro" means ‘strong’ . Zuro ‘strong’ is also found in the name of Zyraxes, a Dacian king,.[9][10]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurobara

    now this is Dacian town far from Thrace but with Thracian ending?
    or maybe settlement of Zuro people..
    "bara" is used in Slavic for swamp
    and there are place names where "bara" is second word

    so maybe this is not fortified place, but a settlement near swamp...
    so, perhaps, Zurobara = Serian swamp



    hence, we can conceive that somewhere near west Dacia were perhaps people with tribal name Zuro/Ziri...

    Zyraxes was a Getae king who ruled north Dobruja in the 1st century BC.His capital, Genucla was besieged by the Romans in 28 BC, but he managed to escape and flee to his Scythian allies.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyraxes

    TheGetae (Greek: Γέται, singular Γέτης; Bulgarian: Гети; Romanian: Geţi, singular Get) was the name given by the Greeks to several Thracian tribes inhabiting the regions to either side of the Lower Danube, in what is today northern Bulgaria and Romania.
    ...
    Strabo, one of the first ancient sources to mention Getae and Dacians, stated in his Geographica (ca. 7 BC-20 AD) that the Dacians lived in the western parts of Dacia, "towards Germania and the sources of the Danube", and the Getae in the eastern parts, towards the Black Sea, both south and north of the Danube.[1] The ancient geographer also wrote that the Dacians and Getae spoke the same language[2], after stating the same about Getae and Thracians.[3]

    so, Getae, Dacians and Thracians speak the same language according to Strabo...

    could Dacians have been the Scythians that Serians rule over...Scythia is name used for teritory of Ukraine though and often for people living in that area regardless of their origin....so maybe this was about Galicia area probably named after some Celtic people....note that Galicia is probably largest hotspot of I2a-Din


    if Scordisci are Ser - people and resulted in Scirii when they moved to Vistula and tribal name SerBoii later, questions is who gave them Slavic language and when?

    because Dalmil's chronicle suggests that it is Serbian language that Poles, Czechs and Croats speak.....
    so either Dalmil's chronicle is wrong or Scordisci accepted language prior to mixing with west Slavs....
    Last edited by how yes no 3; 11-04-13 at 19:04.

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    and who are original Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryans (Slavic name of Ser is Zorya) ? the ones who were holding trading routes in Asia are not I2a-Din but R1a branch that in my opinion set of from Europe in times as far as sea people conquest...and first settles in Kurdish area and from there spreads to Syria and to south to red sea and persian gulf and to east to reach northwest China and Kyrgyz area around 1000BC and make there silk producing area known as Seres that besides northwest China also includied arc to India ....in my opinion those original Serians were spreading the Ser/Asura/Danu/Ishtar/Ishara worship to Asia....and were PIE people setting the basis of PIE religion....
    http://r1a.org/3.htm#11

    has Seneca speaking of Serians based it on same tribal name or he had data that Serians of Asia and Serians of Europe were same Serians (same language and culture)?

    what if their common name is a remain from PIE people times and there is no connection between Serians of Asia and Europe?

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    "also biggest hotspot of I2a-Din is Galicia, clearly named after Galatians or Celts
    Scordisci are also known as Galatae according to Strabo..."
    "The Ukrainian name Halych (Галич) (Halicz in Polish, Галич in Russian, Galic in Latin) comes from the Khwalis or Kaliz who occupied the area from the time of the Magyars."!The Chalyzians or Khalyzians or Khalis or Khwalis (Arabic: Khwarezmian, Byzantine Greek: Χαλίσιοι, Khalisioi, Magyar: Kaliz (pronounced Kalish)) were a people mentioned by the 12th-century Byzantine historian John Kinnamos.
    Kinnamos in his epitome twice mentions Khalisioi in the Hungarian army. He first describes them as practicing Mosaic law; though whether they were actually Jews is unclear. Other editions state that they were Muslims. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    Bastarnae are way too small tribe...
    they are not influential nor strong enough nor culturally developed enough to impose the language to so many people......so Bastarnae may be among proto-Slavic people, but not the key core of them...

    .
    LOL..too small, you a joking right!

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...tarnae&f=false

    they had huge armies, huge territories.

    You must be anti-germanic

    I can link many posts......... the lands they covered was from east side of the Carpathian mountains to the Dniester river...actually original names of the Carpathians was Monte Bastarnae


    powerful naion
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...tarnae&f=false

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "also biggest hotspot of I2a-Din is Galicia, clearly named after Galatians or Celts
    Scordisci are also known as Galatae according to Strabo..."
    "The Ukrainian name Halych (Галич) (Halicz in Polish, Галич in Russian, Galic in Latin) comes from the Khwalis or Kaliz who occupied the area from the time of the Magyars."!The Chalyzians or Khalyzians or Khalis or Khwalis (Arabic: Khwarezmian, Byzantine Greek: Χαλίσιοι, Khalisioi, Magyar: Kaliz (pronounced Kalish)) were a people mentioned by the 12th-century Byzantine historian John Kinnamos.
    Kinnamos in his epitome twice mentions Khalisioi in the Hungarian army. He first describes them as practicing Mosaic law; though whether they were actually Jews is unclear. Other editions state that they were Muslims. "
    thanks for info...
    I didnot know this... was sure that it ought to be related to Galatea in some way.... guess people see what they want to see and I am not exception there...

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    LOL..too small, you a joking right!

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...tarnae&f=false

    they had huge armies, huge territories.

    You must be anti-germanic

    I can link many posts......... the lands they covered was from east side of the Carpathian mountains to the Dniester river...actually original names of the Carpathians was Monte Bastarnae


    powerful naion
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...tarnae&f=false
    if they held large state in that area, than your hypothesis makes sense...

    I never heard that Carpathians were called Monte Basternae...
    but I know Carpathians were also Montes Serrorum (e.g. in writings of Ammianus Marcellinus) and Harvaða fjöllum (in Viking stories), and that east Carpatians were Montes Sarmatici, while west were Carpataes...and some think current name is derived from Carpi...

    but I believe that Russian primary chronicle and Dalmil's chronicle record memory of Slavs living in Danube area prior to moving to Vistula region...

    and am still puzzled with Zeruiani whose state was so big that all Slavs come from it and inclined to think that that is where origin of early Slavs needs to be searched for....

    I also find curious that Poles use Thracian ending for fortified settlement while Serbs and Croats use Dacian one...

    also Jordanes mention of Sclaveni, Venedi and Antes as Venethic race cannot be without any reason...

    key issue with early Slavs is pinpointing the source of language....and data regarding that is confusing... maybe Serbian language that Dalmil's chronicle mentions as language of Poles and Croats is not about modern Serbs but about old time PIE speaking Serians which was later adopted to Serbs as according to Karlovac genealogy Serbs derive the tribal name from Ser and are thus Ser people....

    if I look for those Serians based on genetics in Asia...it is eastern eurasian R1a (I cannot make clear link there but I think there was also J2 component there as J2 seems to stretches along same area)

    this old R1a branch is not (just) Slavic related but older and stretches from UK to India...perhaps those ancient Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryani were overlords of many people and their language gave birth to different peoples and after them for long times there were still tribes in various nations whose name was Dagon worship related and derived from Ser/Asura/Danu/Ishtar/Ishara...

    anyway, i came to the point where it is difficult to make clear theory without contradictions...
    so, I think its time for me to make some break from guessing and wait for more results from genetic and historical data...

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    "also Jordanes mention of Sclaveni, Venedi and Antes as Venethic race cannot be without any reason..."
    I´m sorry,but Jordanes is not a trustworthy source.About Antes:unfortunately such ethnonyms as Antes don´t tell us very much.The Iranian word anta,ossetian aeddae/aendae means (people on the) border/borderer/borderland,margin,outside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "also Jordanes mention of Sclaveni, Venedi and Antes as Venethic race cannot be without any reason..."

    I´m sorry,but Jordanes is not a trustworthy source.About Antes:unfortunately such ethnonyms as Antes don´t tell us very much.The Iranian word anta,ossetian aeddae/aendae means (people on the) border/borderer/borderland,margin,outside.
    that is actually quite interesting data regarding this topic....

    as I wrote before

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...f-tribal-names

    PIE words related to tribal names of Serbs and Wends and Venedi are:

    *uend = turn
    *suerb = turn

    i was explaining that those tribal names meant "border" people...
    because tribal names such as "Wend/Serb/Sorb/Sarban" appear on ends of R1a spread
    and have postulated that word *uend is even now preserved in e.g. english as "end"



    and related to this it is Slavic custom even today to give names related to "end" to its border people
    end = kraj in Slavic

    and hence names like:
    Ukraine, vojna krajina (military frontier of Austor-Hungarian empire in east parts of what is now Croatia and modern day "srpska krajina" from 90s in that area), Timocka krajina (east most Serbia), Bela Krajina (in Slovenia's region bordering Croatia)....


    so,
    Antes= border people
    Serbs = border people
    Wends/Venedi = border people

    and all of those gave Slavs... that's curious...
    while Sclaveni are in the core surrounded with these people on borders that needs to be defended...

    so all together are Sclaveni/Sloveni, which is the name of the core....



    original name of the core is perhaps preserved today in Slovenians
    (called Slovenci n Slavic languages)

    note that Dacians that are not subjugated by Roam empire take name "free Dacians"

    in same way "slo" is easily abbreviation from "slobodni" = free
    because while border people exist, the core is free...

    so,perhaps Slovenci (/sloˈʋeːntsi/) = free venti?




    Venethi probably had different meaning though

    *uent = blowing
    *uentos = wind

    Jordanes:
    Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.
    this "wind" reference always remind me on myth from ancient Greece and Rome about wind gods (Anemoi in Greek, Venti in latin)

    Boreas
    - north wind
    Eurus - east wind
    Zephyrus - west wind born in caves of Thrace and his son Carpus
    Notus - south wind

    let me try to map this myth to ancient tribes...

    in caves of Thrace are born Serdi... they were originally Celtic tribe from Scordisci area, but entered Thrace and were thrachanized or born as Thracians there....

    Carpus may be Carpi... which are in that case, mapping the relation from the myth above, offspring of Serdi....

    most north one Borea would be Buri (Dacian Buri - different from Germanic Buri)...


    minor wind gods (little Venti) are

    Kaikias was the Greek deity of the northeast wind. He is shown as a bearded man with a shield full of hail-stones, and his name is cognate to the Latin word caecus "blind", that is, he was seen as a "dark" wind. The Roman spelling of Kaikias was Caecius.
    Apeliotes, sometimes known to the Romans as Apeliotus, was the Greek deity of the southeast wind. As this wind was thought to cause a refreshing rain particularly beneficial to farmers, he is often depicted wearing gumboots and carrying fruit, draped in a light cloth concealing some flowers or grain. He is cleanshaven, with curly hair and a friendly expression. Because Apeliotes was a minor god, he was often synthesized with Eurus, the east wind.Subsolanus, Apeliotes' Roman counterpart, was also sometimes considered the east wind, in Vulturnus' place.
    Skiron, or Skeiron, was the Greek god of the northwest wind. His name is related to Skirophorion, the last of the three months of spring in the Attic festival calendar. He is depicted as a bearded man tilting a cauldron, representing the onset of winter. His Roman counterpart is Caurus, or Corus. Corus was also one of the oldest Roman wind-deities, and numbered among the di indigetes ("indigenous gods"), a group of abstract and largely minor numinousentities.
    Lips was the Greek deity of the southwest wind, often depicted holding the stern of a ship. His Roman equivalent was Afer ventus ("African wind"), orAfricus, due to Africa being to the southwest of Italy. This name is thought to be derived from the name of a North African tribe, the Afri.
    Other minor wind deities included:

    • Argestes "clearing", a wind blowing from about the same direction as Skiron (Caurus), and probably another name for it
    • Aparctias, sometimes called the north wind instead of Boreas (Septentrionarius)
    • Circius or Thrascius, the north-north-west wind
    • Euronotus, the wind blowing from the direction, as its very name suggests, between Euros and Notos, that is, a south-south-east wind (Euroauster to the Romans)
    • Iapyx, the north-west wind about the same as Caurus
    • Libonotus, the south-south-west wind, known as Austro-Africus to the Romans
    • Meses, another name for the north-west wind
    • Olympias, apparently identified with Skiron/Argestes
    • Phoenicias, another name for the south-east wind ("the one blowing from Phoenicia", due to this land lying to the south-east of Greece)
    NE - Kaikias = Caucoense or Cauci
    NW - Iapux => Iapodes
    NW - Meses -> Moesians
    SW - Lips -> Liburnians
    SSW Libonotus = Lib + Notus
    NW - Skiron -> Scordisci or Skires?
    Argetes wind blowing from same direction as Skiron = Tyrgetes (tribe south of Skires)





    essentially, following the mapping of Venti wind gods to tribes, the ancient race of Venethi, that is according to Jordanes origin of early Slavs, are:

    Thracians, Dacians and few north Dalmatia tribes..
    Last edited by how yes no 3; 12-04-13 at 20:29.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Serbs and Croats do not have Germanic origins. 40 or so percent of Croats and 35-45% of Serbs are haplogroup I-M423, the Balkans haplogroup I. Some studies onSerbs even show frequencies as high as 50%. These men are indigenous to the Balkans and have been in that area for thousands of years. I personally call them "southern proto-Europeans". They share a same haplogroup but different subclade as their Scandinavian I cousins that dominate Sweden and Norway (northern proto-Europeans). Croats have slightly higher Slavic R1a blood, 30-38% or so versus Serbia's 15-20% of men. Serbia has significantly higher north-African blood ( Balkans haplogroup E found in Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, is also found in Serbs at about 20-25% of Serbian males.) overall, I-M423 and R1a dominate most Croatian men and I-M423 with almost exact levels of R1a and E ( slightly more E than R1a ) dominates Serbian men. "Germanic" blood is very low in both these countries with haplogroup R1b around 10- max 15% in both countries and haplogroup I1a ( I don't even refer to this as Germanic I just call it Nordic or Nordic haplogroup I) being low in both countries. They are both predominantly Southern proto European (balkanian I) and Slavic, although Serbia has more haplogroup E presence and maybe 10% more I-M423 whereas Croatia has maybe 10% more R1a.

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    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "also Jordanes mention of Sclaveni, Venedi and Antes as Venethic race cannot be without any reason..."
    I´m sorry,but Jordanes is not a trustworthy source.About Antes:unfortunately such ethnonyms as Antes don´t tell us very much.The Iranian word anta,ossetian aeddae/aendae means (people on the) border/borderer/borderland,margin,outside.
    as per my post #63, it is explained that the word Venethi is a fabricated word created for the first time by Jordanes to celebrate the gothic victory over the insignificant venedi tribe on the coast of the baltic sea, the goths then destroyed the venedi neighbours the aestii and then marched to the black sea.
    Jordanes, a goth was only trying to tell how great the Goths are.

    He is truly untrustworthy as a historian


    There is plenty more on the ventics in Italy
    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/people/research/perego


    http://ucl.academia.edu/ElisaPerego/Talks


    Last edited by zanipolo; 14-04-13 at 00:21.

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