Question about R1b and IE languages in Iberia

[Mikewww]

... With R1b-P312, on the other hand, you have places where 70, 80 or nearly 90% of the men belong to that haplogroup and yet they speak/spoke non-IE languages, although they presumably descend from the people who at some point imposed their rule in that particular area. So the question is, even if R1b-P297/M269 and later subclades did spread IE languages, which I believe they did, why was the adoption of indigenous languages apparently such a common phenomenon among these populations? Were they just more soft-hearted than R1a folks or what?

What information are you looking at that makes you think that R1b whatever adoption of indigenous languages was common? ... or what % do you think is common?

 

[Mikewww]

...
To me based on ancient DNA and DNA research on Indo European people it is pretty obvious R1b P297 and R1a M417 existed in proto Indo Europeans probably in Russia and Ukriane... .

I am not saying your wrong, but what research makes you think that R1b P297 existed in Russia and Ukraine in the PIE homeland timeframe?

 

[Fire Haired]

because the steppes(aka Russia and Ukraine) gave birth to R1b M73 which s a son of R1b P297. Also all R1b M269 subclades seem to have migrated out of the steppes with Indo European languages and M269 is a son of P297.

 

[Mikewww]

....
The Germans where pretty good warriors u know about the Vikings they where teh last western Europeans to keep their traditional Indo European culture that is why they where so violent.

I'm not saying that there wasn't violence. There obviously was, but I'm not sure we should attribute all or even most population changes to violence. You didn't say it was, but I see referrals to warriors, etc. quite often. Disease, immunities, cultural practices, minor biological advantages and may just plain good luck could all be very important, if not more important. These aren't mentioned as often as "conquering", etc.

Maybe it is all about tolerance for milk drinking? or a minor ratio difference in boy/girl births?

 

[Fire Haired]

i know there where diff factors and indo European cultures liife was not 100% war not even the spartens where 100% war. The main or only way they spread their language is by war eve in Irish tradition they say ther Celtic ancestors conquered ireland. the only way to force ur y dna on someone is by killing the old y dna aka killing the men in war. The Indo Euopeans where ever they went became the dominate culture almost always by war so i know they where not all bloodthrsty but over 1,000's of years that s how they spread their language and y dna.

 

[Mikewww]

... The main or only way they spread their language is by war eve in Irish tradition they say ther Celtic ancestors conquered ireland. the only way to force ur y dna on someone is by killing the old y dna aka killing the men in war.....

Again, I'm not saying that there was no violence, but it is rather simplistic to assume that men killing men is the primary way Y DNA was redistributed. In some cases, i.e. the Neolithic (farming) vs. the Mesolithic (hunting/gathering), some families just outgrew and outsurvived the others.

Irish tradition is just that. It is not necessarily factual and was "traditionally" written many years after the proposed incidents. I have ancestors from Ireland but a story is just a story. That doesn't make it totally false, but we can hardly assume a story is true. The whole concept of the discipline of history relates to documentation, backup evidence, etc.

 

[Fire Haired]

why did indo europeans where ever they want kill off the old y dna but not mtdan because they killed the men in war. in my opinon that is the only possible answer

 

[Mikewww]

why did indo europeans where ever they want kill off the old y dna but not mtdan because they killed the men in war. in my opinon that is the only possible answer

Okay, that is a legitimate opinion. Is there evidence for your opinion? What Y haplogroups do you associate with the Indo-European incomers? What Y haplogroups do you associate with prior men in Europe? What evidence is there for a dramatic event / war change? I mean, can you show the massive replacement happened quickly, in dramatic fashion? Does the archaeology and does the technologies support the war scenario on a broad scale across Europe?

 

[Degredado]

What information are you looking at that makes you think that R1b whatever adoption of indigenous languages was common? ... or what % do you think is common?

Just looking at Central/Western Europe, we have/had:
- Basque/Aquitanian (in ancient times, it was spoken in a much larger area than today, from the Central Pyrenees to all around the Bay of Biscay);
- Iberian language(s), from the Eastern Pyrenees to the Southern Coast of Spain;
- Etruscan language (granted this might be a different scenario, because the Etruscans are said to have arrived in Italy as recently as the 8th century BC, which I personally am suspicious of);
- Raetic language in the Alps, which was probably non-IE.

Pictish has always been controversial, but from what I've read, it has recently been linked with Celtic or at least IE languages.

Anyways, P312 and subclades reach anywhere from 50-80% in all of those regions. So we are looking at P312 "invaders" adopting possibly three unrelated aboriginal languages, in distinct regions.

 

[Fire Haired]

picts where with no doubt celts. that is a theory some people have held but all evidence points to them being celts. they defintley hd celtic culture, red hair(which was spread in western europe by Germanic Italo Celts), and r1b l21. we dont have any written records of their language but i did hear there is evidence they spoke a related languge to brythonic which is welsh. they where insular celtic speakers but where in the brythonic branch irish are in the gealic branch gealic then conquered scotland they where called scotia i think it was in the middle ages.

 

[MOESAN]

Just looking at Central/Western Europe, we have/had:
- Basque/Aquitanian (in ancient times, it was spoken in a much larger area than today, from the Central Pyrenees to all around the Bay of Biscay);
- Iberian language(s), from the Eastern Pyrenees to the Southern Coast of Spain;
- Etruscan language (granted this might be a different scenario, because the Etruscans are said to have arrived in Italy as recently as the 8th century BC, which I personally am suspicious of);
- Raetic language in the Alps, which was probably non-IE.

Pictish has always been controversial, but from what I've read, it has recently been linked with Celtic or at least IE languages.

Anyways, P312 and subclades reach anywhere from 50-80% in all of those regions. So we are looking at P312 "invaders" adopting possibly three unrelated aboriginal languages, in distinct regions.

I 'll try later to take part in this interesting (already debated in other threads) debate - but for now just a thought of mine:
Rhaetic lands appears as having known two sorts of language: a non-I-Ean one seeming akin to etruscan (a kind of anatolian-caucasian pre-I-Ean one?) and an Indo-European one, we can see as archaic on the scarce traces we have, maybe akin in some say to the old-north-west-european language (pre- or proto-Belgae?): it's to say: a wave of I-E preceding the clear cut into proto-celtic, proto-italic and proto-germanic languages?
I recall latine phonetics is different enough from celtic phonetics when we eliminate the loan words and that the traces of ligurian we have seem placing it closer to celtic than to italic concerning phonetics (bit it'strue: scarces are the traces)

 

[Ziober]

I'm not saying that there wasn't violence. There obviously was, but I'm not sure we should attribute all or even most population changes to violence. You didn't say it was, but I see referrals to warriors, etc. quite often. Disease, immunities, cultural practices, minor biological advantages and may just plain good luck could all be very important, if not more important. These aren't mentioned as often as "conquering", etc.

Maybe it is all about tolerance for milk drinking? or a minor ratio difference in boy/girl births?

I agree with you, indeed celts didn't being imperialist. They were coexist in Iberia with other tribes during thousans of years. They cames to Rome, Pissing off the romans and returned to their homes, they haven't wanted the lands of other people, they teach other people.

 

[Ziober]

Hello Fire Haired. I agree with you in many terms.

Iberians have a subclade of R1b S116 which is Italo Celtic R1b their subclade is R1b Df27. The first Italo Celtic speakers to migrate to Iberia where Hallstatt Celts from Gaul 2,700ybp that is probably when R1b first came to Iberia.

According to Caesar the Aquitaine(basque ancestors) where Celts he said they did not speak a Gaulic language but they where still Celts. So basque ancestors where Celts by culture but not by language. The same areas that stayed non Celtic speaking in Iberia have the highest amount of I2a1a in Iberia Basque have the highest over all at 10-15%.

But I think you are wrong accepting Halstat and La Tenne as first celts to entering Iberia. I think those cultures were the most developed, so obviosly, not the first, but the last.

There are a thread about basques and R1b. I agree with you Fire Haired in the mixture between I2a (cromagnoids) and R1b. And probably one of the most homogeneous populations in a modern country.

This is the thread:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28386-How-did-the-Basques-become-R1b

And this is one of my posts on that thread:

Hi adeof. I can agree with you about I2a which I was calling cromagnoids, The genuine european natives before the IE migrations, it is a branch of "I" haplogroup fully originated in Europe. But when you talk about celts and celtiberian you must to notice that these terms were for people whose had lived lots of time after we are talking, I'm talking before Bronze age. Celtiberian is a confusing term, because it is used to call at modern spaniards as an ethnic group, but still is used for the celts which came from central Europe and were mixed with iberians (Example the city of Numancia, near Soria, Castilla León. They were celtiberians). In the peninsula had living together, the celts that never gone out (in the west), and the celts from central Europe (in the north east of Iberia) whose indeed returned to home. I'm proposing That R1b(M343) had originated in the Iberian peninsula from M173.

That you say about I2a have sense, there are a noticiable link in Sardinia, as the Kurgan Stelae people use sardinia as bridge to Iberia. Maybe Stelae People brought M-173 to Iberia?

 

[Ziober]

In the same thread:

My hypothesis:

I think R1b were nonconformist people whose were exploring to settle where they wish, always looking for a better way of life. Spreading from their original core in SW Iberia, and probably an important part of them were seduced by basque-aquitanian country way of life,country which in the surroundings were inhabited in those times by cromagnoids whose had speaks the language known as basque, So the R1b basques became sedentary with very attachment about their land, adopting a foreign language, the cromanoid language. R1b and cromagnoids were mixed forming the modern celtiberians (all around Iberia, not only in basque country). Another R1b people continued their voyage to French Brittany, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England. Then became another expansion from the isles to Norway, and from Brittany-Aquitania to Central Europe. the R1b Central European people spreads to north Italy, the East Europe and Catalonia-Aragón-Rioja-Navarra in Iberia. The most plausible origin of R1b was in the SW of Iberia. At this point is very important to considerate the celtic "castros"(spanish word) in Cogotas I y II, and all about Vettons in general.

 

[Tabaccus Maximus]

Fair enough. But then again, aren't "Basque" R1b and "Celtic" R1b too similar in terms of SNP's (they're all P312, with about 20% of Basque R1b being L21) and too close chronologically, for these groups to develop two language families that are as related as Arabic and Cherokee?

I do think the IE scenario makes more sense than the others, I'd just like to understand what happened in eastern Iberia and SW France. The idea that the majority of R1b's in Iberia were some sort of "absent fathers" who neglected their kids' upbringing and left it to the sole responsibility of conquered women just doesn't ring true to me.

You asked previously why members of a dominate or more populous culture would identify or assimilate with a smaller, genetically dissimilar culture. Well you don't have to look far to see this happening. From Egypt to Finland you see people who identify strongly with a population that in its origin was probably differnent than their own.

Many people in the Middle East disregard their own native history and insist they are Arab. In America, a bizarre situation occurs in which the U.S. Census has found in multiple enumerations that people who have a mixed ancestry that includes Anglo-Saxon always identifies with the other culture.
There are probably many reasons for this.

 

[Noman]

As a matter of fact, it seems every R1b theory has a gigantic hole in it.

I think it's pretty simple. Original theory is correct, it spread out from iberia and north africa after the ice age. IE language is entirely cultural spread from people who are inherently migratory and therefore have a big range. Basques don't speak IE because they are more settled and never got conquered. End of story.

The only scrap of contrary evidence is the molecular clock nonsense and some dna that obviously comes from farmers. Unless they get some ancient dna in iberia they know is bell beaker they don't have any evidence to contrary.

 

[sparkey]

The only scrap of contrary evidence is the molecular clock nonsense and some dna that obviously comes from farmers.

R1b phylogeny? Relative molecular diversity of R1b populations and cline from the Near East? Relatively low molecular diversity compared to other local haplogroups? Utter lack of the earliest R1b clades in Iberia? Higher I2a1a diversity than R1b diversity in Basques? The fact that it's ridiculous to expect the supposedly most successful hunter-gatherer clade to have completely avoided farming, and yet remained more successful than those who did? Positive association of R1b-M269 (L11-) and IE in Iran?

What do you have? Modern frequency?