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Thread: Jewish people, where they are from?

  1. #276
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Woops, it wasn't in the cave of Makhpela (silly me) but in the tomb of the shroud in Akeldama (Jerusalem).
    Most samples belonged to MtDNA haplogroups W (5 samples) and H (around four samples). Some of the (presumably) H samples might've been V or J1 instead.
    This is all to be found in Matheson et al. 2009.
    Oh I see, it's alright, people make mistakes. But wouldn't we expect also to find subclades of K? I reckon K1a9 for example arose in the near east before coming to Europe, otherwise it wouldn't be near eastern.

    P.S What would haplogroup W stand for today?

    Edit: Nevermind, silly me, just Googled W:

    Possible time of origin 23,900 ybp[1]
    Possible place of origin Western Asia
    Ancestor N2
    Descendants W1, 194
    Defining mutations 195 204 207 1243 3505 5460 8251 8994 11947 15884C 16292[2]



    So we're looking at another west Asian haplogroup which shouldn't be surprising to see pre exile Jews carrying?

  2. #277
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
    Half-Jewish (paternal) & Half-British (maternal)
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Oh I see, it's alright, people make mistakes. But wouldn't we expect also to find subclades of K? I reckon K1a9 for example arose in the near east before coming to Europe, otherwise it wouldn't be near eastern.

    P.S What would haplogroup W stand for today?

    Edit: Nevermind, silly me, just Googled W:

    Possible time of origin 23,900 ybp[1]
    Possible place of origin Western Asia
    Ancestor N2
    Descendants W1, 194
    Defining mutations 195 204 207 1243 3505 5460 8251 8994 11947 15884C 16292[2]



    So we're looking at another west Asian haplogroup which shouldn't be surprising to see pre exile Jews carrying?
    We shouldn't expect to find only modern Ashkenazi lineages, in fact because of the bottleneck Ashkenazim have only retained a part of the Judean gene-pool and aren't fully representative of its diversity.
    In fact, this is also in line with one of the conclusions in Fernandez et al. 2014: "Moreover, in the light of the evidence presented here of a loss of lineages in the Near East since Neolithic times, the absence of Ashkenazi mtDNA founder clades in the Near East should not be taken as a definitive argument for its absence in the past."

    So while I do think we'll end up finding Ashkenazi mtDNA founder clades (including K1a9) in Judean remains, we must also expect to find other lineages which have disappeared since then and didn't make it into the Ashkenazi gene pool either.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    We shouldn't expect to find only modern Ashkenazi lineages, in fact because of the bottleneck Ashkenazim have only retained a part of the Judean gene-pool and aren't fully representative of its diversity.
    In fact, this is also in line with one of the conclusions in Fernandez et al. 2014: "Moreover, in the light of the evidence presented here of a loss of lineages in the Near East since Neolithic times, the absence of Ashkenazi mtDNA founder clades in the Near East should not be taken as a definitive argument for its absence in the past."

    So while I do think we'll end up finding Ashkenazi mtDNA founder clades (including K1a9) in Judean remains, we must also expect to find other lineages which have disappeared since then and didn't make it into the Ashkenazi gene pool either.

    Interesting, I suppose that makes sense.

  4. #279
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    @Semitic Duwa Do you know if there was some gene flow from Spaniards to Sephardis (I know that it's almost certain there was gene flow the other way around) and therefore Ashkenazis (because many Sephardis fled to eastern Europe and assimilated into the AJ community)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    @Semitic Duwa Do you know if there was some gene flow from Spaniards to Sephardis (I know that it's almost certain there was gene flow the other way around) and therefore Ashkenazis (because many Sephardis fled to eastern Europe and assimilated into the AJ community)?
    Possible, yet again you'd expect more WHG if there was a substantial amount of gene flow.
    Statistically-speaking, all Ashkenazim have Sephardic ancestry.

  6. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Possible, yet again you'd expect more WHG if there was a substantial amount of gene flow.
    Statistically-speaking, all Ashkenazim have Sephardic ancestry.
    Okay, once again, thanks for the answer. :)
    I suppose that the only meaningful gene flow from any European population probably comes from pre Slavic Greeks, but it should be noted that northern Spaniards get about 12% WHG, which, even though being double than what modern mainland Greeks get, but we're talking about northern Spaniards, people who I suppose come from north of Madrid, we're not even talking about Spaniards from places like Toledo or Extremadura or Andalucia and, it's still not the amount that modern French, Pommy's (Englishmen) or Czechs get, all of these have WHG above 30.

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    BTW Are Gedmatch calculators such as Eurogenes, Dodecad and MDLP considered reliable? Also on the map French seem to have equal geneflow as Poles, Hungarians and Bulgarians (it gets even higher in southwest France and I don't mean the Basques), does this represent geneflow from both sides or just from the AJs outwards?

    P.S I took a look at the study and it says Spaniards get 7% while Basques get 12% http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/001552-1.pdf
    Last edited by John Doe; 31-08-14 at 19:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    BTW Are Gedmatch calculators such as Eurogenes, Dodecad and MDLP considered reliable? Also on the map French seem to have equal geneflow as Poles, Hungarians and Bulgarians (it gets even higher in southwest France and I don't mean the Basques), does this represent geneflow from both sides or just from the AJs outwards?

    P.S I took a look at the study and it says Spaniards get 7% while Basques get 12% http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/001552-1.pdf
    go to gedmatch

    run EUTEST and note numbers , then run JTEST and compare against the Eutest numbers.

    jtest has jewish numbers and eutest has zero jewish..........they where made to be run against each other.
    Then go to the hsplogroup you belong to and the subclades which are jewish.

    with these tests most can tell if their jewishness is paternal or maternal and where they are from ...................I envy the jews in genetics.........they have the ability to narrow down to subclades their origins, me, I have to search through the whole haplogroup
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    go to gedmatch

    run EUTEST and note numbers , then run JTEST and compare against the Eutest numbers.

    jtest has jewish numbers and eutest has zero jewish..........they where made to be run against each other.
    Then go to the hsplogroup you belong to and the subclades which are jewish.

    with these tests most can tell if their jewishness is paternal or maternal and where they are from ...................I envy the jews in genetics.........they have the ability to narrow down to subclades their origins, me, I have to search through the whole haplogroup

    Jtest:

    Population
    SOUTH_BALTIC 3.60%
    EAST_EURO 1.41%
    NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 7.42%
    ATLANTIC 11.01%
    WEST_MED 11.20%
    ASHKENAZI 28.29%
    EAST_MED 22.46%
    WEST_ASIAN 8.27%
    MIDDLE_EASTERN 5.58%
    SOUTH_ASIAN -
    EAST_AFRICAN -
    EAST_ASIAN 0.30%
    SIBERIAN -
    WEST_AFRICAN 0.46%



    EUtest:

    Population
    SOUTH_BALTIC 4.05%
    EAST_EURO 3.27%
    NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 9.42%
    ATLANTIC 14.88%
    WEST_MED 14.56%
    EAST_MED 29.89%
    WEST_ASIAN 12.28%
    MIDDLE_EASTERN 10.43%
    SOUTH_ASIAN -
    EAST_AFRICAN 0.24%
    EAST_ASIAN 0.35%
    SIBERIAN -
    WEST_AFRICAN 0.63%



















    I get 95.1% AJ on 23andme, so I'm pretty sure I'm a full AJ. My maternal lineage is exclusively AJ and I don't know the exact branch of E-M35.1 which I belong to.

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    BTW Gedmatch became the first recipient of the "Technology Advances Award" made by the Federation of Genealogical Societies. The award certificate is "in recognition of an innovative product that enhances the genetic genealogy experience." So perhaps it is reliable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    BTW Gedmatch became the first recipient of the "Technology Advances Award" made by the Federation of Genealogical Societies. The award certificate is "in recognition of an innovative product that enhances the genetic genealogy experience." So perhaps it is reliable.
    Gedmatch is reliable in its own peculiar way, it proves useful in fitting you with contemporary populations for instance.
    Until we have a reliable assessment of genetic prehistory, Gedmatch's calculators will be based on pure conjecture and will only uncover contemporary ancestry.

    The Middle East's genetic prehistory is unknown territory as of now, terra incognita!
    The best we have right now are educated guesses (such as Polako's "AME" or "NEF", and even then it's a bold undertaking).
    So we can expect a few surprises when actual data will come to us from these areas (kind of logical, given the amount of surprises we're encountering in Europe, a continent with a mildly complex demographic history, so it definitely is a cautionary tale for areas with very complex population dynamics such as the Near East).

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Jtest:

    Population
    SOUTH_BALTIC 3.60%
    EAST_EURO 1.41%
    NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 7.42%
    ATLANTIC 11.01%
    WEST_MED 11.20%
    ASHKENAZI 28.29%
    EAST_MED 22.46%
    WEST_ASIAN 8.27%
    MIDDLE_EASTERN 5.58%
    SOUTH_ASIAN -
    EAST_AFRICAN -
    EAST_ASIAN 0.30%
    SIBERIAN -
    WEST_AFRICAN 0.46%



    EUtest:

    Population
    SOUTH_BALTIC 4.05%
    EAST_EURO 3.27%
    NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 9.42%
    ATLANTIC 14.88%
    WEST_MED 14.56%
    EAST_MED 29.89%
    WEST_ASIAN 12.28%
    MIDDLE_EASTERN 10.43%
    SOUTH_ASIAN -
    EAST_AFRICAN 0.24%
    EAST_ASIAN 0.35%
    SIBERIAN -
    WEST_AFRICAN 0.63%


















    I get 95.1% AJ on 23andme, so I'm pretty sure I'm a full AJ. My maternal lineage is exclusively AJ and I don't know the exact branch of E-M35.1 which I belong to.
    your greatest jewishness is East-Med at over 7%
    go into documentation for this test and check the populace that represent East-med for this test ............or sent a note to Polako
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    your greatest jewishness is East-Med at over 7%
    go into documentation for this test and check the populace that represent East-med for this test ............or sent a note to Polako
    As far as I'm aware, "East_Med" in these tests = Druze.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Gedmatch is reliable in its own peculiar way, it proves useful in fitting you with contemporary populations for instance.
    Until we have a reliable assessment of genetic prehistory, Gedmatch's calculators will be based on pure conjecture and will only uncover contemporary ancestry.

    The Middle East's genetic prehistory is unknown territory as of now, terra incognita!
    The best we have right now are educated guesses (such as Polako's "AME" or "NEF", and even then it's a bold undertaking).
    So we can expect a few surprises when actual data will come to us from these areas (kind of logical, given the amount of surprises we're encountering in Europe, a continent with a mildly complex demographic history, so it definitely is a cautionary tale for areas with very complex population dynamics such as the Near East).
    Alright, thanks. What Gedmatch tells me is genetic similarities with Sicilians/south Italians/Greeks, so while the genetic similarities and gene flow/admixture/IBD sharing is most likely genuine in the case of the last one, I doubt there's clear direct gene flow/admixture/IBD sharing with the first two. Also I sometimes have similarities with Spaniards in mixed populations (usually Valencia Spaniards) also makes me wonder, while it's clear most if not all AJs have been heavily influenced by Sephardi admixture, and while it's certain there was large gene flow FROM Sephardis to Spaniards, I doubt that happened to a large degree the other way around, what do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    As far as I'm aware, "East_Med" in these tests = Druze.
    Really? Interesting... And what does the "Atlantic" and "West Mediterranean" represent? because I seem to get double the amount of Atlantic from what the average AJ is supposed to get.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    so while the genetic similarities and gene flow/admixture/IBD sharing


    IBD sharing is not equivalent to the first two. It does not indicate the direction of the gene flow, and it could simply be due to remote ancestors that two or more otherwise unrelated peoples had in common.

    and while it's certain there was large gene flow FROM Sephardis to Spaniards, I doubt that happened to a large degree the other way around, what do you think?
    I think such a claim is quite implausible. Jews were only about 1% of the population of Spain:

    "One percent of the population of al-Andalus is estimated to have been Jewish"

    http://books.google.com/books?id=7ma...ish%22&f=false

    So if anything it was them (and the much ballyhooed "Moors" too, who were only around 5% of the population) who were influenced by the vastly numerically superior native Spaniards, not the other way around. The demographics simply weren't there to support any "large gene flow FROM Sephardis to Spaniards".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post


    IBD sharing is not equivalent to the first two. It does not indicate the direction of the gene flow, and it could simply be due to remote ancestors that two or more otherwise unrelated peoples had in common.



    I think such a claim is quite implausible. Jews were only about 1% of the population of Spain:

    "One percent of the population of al-Andalus is estimated to have been Jewish"

    http://books.google.com/books?id=7ma...ish%22&f=false

    So if anything it was them (and the much ballyhooed "Moors" too, who were only around 5% of the population) who were influenced by the vastly numerically superior native Spaniards, not the other way around. The demographics simply weren't there to support any "large gene flow FROM Sephardis to Spaniards".
    I see... Thanks for the answer! I suppose it does make more sense the native Spaniards would have influenced the Jews and the Moors more than the other way around, it's not that impossible I must say, especially when talking about Jews, because Jews lived in Iberia at least since the days of the late Roman empire, and I doubt orthodox anti intermingling/converting to Judaism Catholic papacy reached the authority that it did in say early 16th century Iberia back then, especially with the take over of the Arian Visigoths who were quite tolerant of Jews, and most of the latter supported the Visigoths, so there were about 3 centuries for something to happen. Modern mainland Greeks have 6% WHG ancestry, modern NORTHERN Spaniards get 12% WHG and average Spaniards get 7%, therefore it's not that impossible genetically speaking either. This is all speculation but I doubt it's completely implausible. "Ballyhooed Moors", while it's obvious they weren't peace loving perfect hippies, they weren't just blood thirsty barbarians either, but their "golden age" was long gone by the time of the Almoravid dynasty.

    Here's the link for my source: http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6639.pdf

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Alright, thanks. What Gedmatch tells me is genetic similarities with Sicilians/south Italians/Greeks, so while the genetic similarities and gene flow/admixture/IBD sharing is most likely genuine in the case of the last one, I doubt there's clear direct gene flow/admixture/IBD sharing with the first two. Also I sometimes have similarities with Spaniards in mixed populations (usually Valencia Spaniards) also makes me wonder, while it's clear most if not all AJs have been heavily influenced by Sephardi admixture, and while it's certain there was large gene flow FROM Sephardis to Spaniards, I doubt that happened to a large degree the other way around, what do you think?
    The Spaniards show up because Ashkenazim & Sephardim stand in between Samaritans/Druze/Mizrahim and Spaniards/North Italians/Portuguese, typical overfit because the oracle is trying to cut your ancestry in neat halves or quarters... Which is idiosyncratic since this model isn't going to tell you much about Jewish genetic history.
    So on a contemporary basis, yes it could work, that is to say that the offspring of a Lebanese/Druze/Samaritan & Iberian/North Italian person will end up plotting with Ashkenazim and Sephardim.
    However such fits don't tell us anything about the model which lead to the emergence of the Western Jewish cluster... Unless you believe that Ashkenazi-Sephardic ancestry can be resumed as half-Iberian/Italian half-Levantine (which undermines the whole concept of course), I'd ignore that for the time being.

    Long story short: Contemporary populations are no substitute for aDNA and shouldn't be used as proxies.

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    It is interesting that Jewish people all over the world don't descend from the same origin, and they have different haplogroups in their genetic pool. In fact, it is the same with all races on earth, but Judaism seems to focus more on the roots. Though this, it is strange to observe so many varieties of haplogroups among Jewish people. How do you explain this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Really? Interesting... And what does the "Atlantic" and "West Mediterranean" represent? because I seem to get double the amount of Atlantic from what the average AJ is supposed to get.
    Atlantic is Irish/Basque & Breton, all the Atlantic façade.
    West Med stands for Sardinian, if I'm not mistaken that is!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nr9 View Post
    It is interesting that Jewish people all over the world don't descend from the same origin, and they have different haplogroups in their genetic pool. In fact, it is the same with all races on earth, but Judaism seems to focus more on the roots. Though this, it is strange to observe so many varieties of haplogroups among Jewish people. How do you explain this?
    Actually, what I find even more interesting is the fact that Jews from Tunisia cluster closer to Jews from Russia than to their host population, the opposite is true as well.
    In fact, Sephardic & Ashkenazi Jews form a single cluster, have high IBD sharing and have many haplogroups in common:



    In fact I could go even further and highlight the fact that Ashkenazi Jews often cluster closer to Mizrahi Jews than to their host populations.

    As far as uniparental lineages go, expecting all Jews to belong to a single marker is sheer madness.
    Even extremely-inbred groups such as the Samaritans have different uniparental lineages, and no one would even think to deny them a common origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    The Spaniards show up because Ashkenazim & Sephardim stand in between Samaritans/Druze/Mizrahim and Spaniards/North Italians/Portuguese, typical overfit because the oracle is trying to cut your ancestry in neat halves or quarters... Which is idiosyncratic since this model isn't going to tell you much about Jewish genetic history.
    So on a contemporary basis, yes it could work, that is to say that the offspring of a Lebanese/Druze/Samaritan & Iberian/North Italian person will end up plotting with Ashkenazim and Sephardim.
    However such fits don't tell us anything about the model which lead to the emergence of the Western Jewish cluster... Unless you believe that Ashkenazi-Sephardic ancestry can be resumed as half-Iberian/Italian half-Levantine (which undermines the whole concept of course), I'd ignore that for the time being.

    Long story short: Contemporary populations are no substitute for aDNA and shouldn't be used as proxies.
    Nah for AJs Eastern Iberian/Druze combo fits very well. Western Iberians are to much African and North Italians are too much East Med/West Asian. Another god combo is muslim Lebanese/French Basque, but it is less precise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    I see... Thanks for the answer! I suppose it does make more sense the native Spaniards would have influenced the Jews and the Moors more than the other way around, it's not that impossible I must say, especially when talking about Jews, because Jews lived in Iberia at least since the days of the late Roman empire, and I doubt orthodox anti intermingling/converting to Judaism Catholic papacy reached the authority that it did in say early 16th century Iberia back then, especially with the take over of the Arian Visigoths who were quite tolerant of Jews, and most of the latter supported the Visigoths, so there were about 3 centuries for something to happen. Modern mainland Greeks have 6% WHG ancestry, modern NORTHERN Spaniards get 12% WHG and average Spaniards get 7%, therefore it's not that impossible genetically speaking either. This is all speculation but I doubt it's completely implausible. "Ballyhooed Moors", while it's obvious they weren't peace loving perfect hippies, they weren't just blood thirsty barbarians either, but their "golden age" was long gone by the time of the Almoravid dynasty.

    Here's the link for my source: http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6639.pdf
    There's been a number of autosomal studies on the DNA of Jews and I can't remember any that found any particular link between Iberians and any Jewish groups. Greeks and Italians are usually found to be genetically closer to them, but there could be several explanations for this, it does not necessarily have to be Jewish-to-gentile population gene flow. It could for example be the other way around (gentile-to-Jewish population influence), or also a product of both, or perhaps simply a matter of having some remote ancestors in common.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    So on a contemporary basis, yes it could work, that is to say that the offspring of a Lebanese/Druze/Samaritan & Iberian/North Italian person will end up plotting with Ashkenazim and Sephardim.
    However such fits don't tell us anything about the model which lead to the emergence of the Western Jewish cluster...
    Long story short: Contemporary populations are no substitute for aDNA and shouldn't be used as proxies
    .
    Exactly so.

    Admixture, and PCAs for that matter, are very imperfect tools for figuring out how different clusters formed. Indeed, they are very imperfect even for discovering individual ethnicity. An adoptee searching for information about ancestry who plots in the Balkans could indeed have Balkan ancestry, or could be a product of a British and Ashkenazi union. I know it can happen, because I used to share with someone with that mix who did indeed plot, there.

    Absent ancient dna, the best tool we have is IBD analysis, and to the best of my recollection, the most IBD sharing between Ashkenazim/Sephardim and gentile European populations is with Greeks, and secondarily and in a more minor way, with Eastern Europeans.


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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    Nah for AJs Eastern Iberian/Druze combo fits very well. Western Iberians are to much African and North Italians are too much East Med/West Asian. Another god combo is muslim Lebanese/French Basque, but it is less precise.
    Western Iberians often show up with Mizrahim, North Italians + Druze is what you observe most of the time.

    Lebanese_Muslim + French_Basque also pops up quite a few times.

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