italian genetics

[albanopolis]

One thing is sure, italics people in being infoeuroean and coming from central europe Pannonia area were more phenotypically similar with celts than with non indoeuropean peole in italy from wich italians took the mediterranean phenotype

Its more fair to say that Italy is a coctail of people, very distinct genetically and phenotipycally. Why should be haplogroup R1b be avregaed out when its clear the ratio south to north is 3:1 and clades are different. Countries like Albania have it evenly spread out around the country. So Lega Nord has a valid point when asking for confederation. I am not a Lega fan, but genetically it makes sense.

 

[binx]

Its more fair to say that Italy is a coctail of people, very distinct genetically and phenotipycally. Why should be haplogroup R1b be avregaed out when its clear the ratio south to north is 3:1 and clades are different. Countries like Albania have it evenly spread out around the country. So Lega Nord has a valid point when asking for confederation. I am not a Lega fan, but genetically it makes sense.

Genetically, Albania is divided in many different haplogroups, the biggest one is E1b E-V13 with 30 % more or less. For the same reason, I guess Albania should be separated or divided into a conferedation.

Albania
I1 2%
I2a 12%
I2b 1,5%
R1a 9%
R1b 16%
G2a 1,5%
J2 19,5%
J1 2%
E1b1b 27,5%
T 1%

 

[binx]

But how is this possible?This is the biggest study so far right? I mean where do u have 5000 from? Family Tree and 23andme combination is not good or combining different studies. My opinion is that a good study is a study of minimum 500 non related people from all over the country. I thought this is the only such on Italians. Can u give links to the other good studies please

5000 sample size considering all the genetics studies about Italy, I think.

 

[albanopolis]

Genetically, Albania is divided in many different haplogroups, the biggest one is E1b E-V13 with 30 % more or less. For the same reason, I guess Albania should be separated or divided into a conferedation.

Albania
I1 2%
I2a 12%
I2b 1,5%
R1a 9%
R1b 16%
G2a 1,5%
J2 19,5%
J1 2%
E1b1b 27,5%
T 1%

Albanian sample is too small (30 pple), to be taken seriously. R1b should be 2% higher, J is overblown, should be at least 5% lower, I1 should be at least 2% higher.. My estimates come from Albanians in Macedoni studies. When sample became 115 people E in Albanins from macedonia from 38% came down to 32%, but R1a shot up.

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And this is Y-DNA from Albanians(25% of population Of R. Macedonia) in Macedonia:

Noveski,Trivodalieva, Efremov 2006-09
Y Haplogroup	Macedonians	Albanians	Others	Total
E1b1b1a-M78	15.60%	28.80%	14.30%	19.80%
E1b1b1b-M81	0	1.80%	0	0.60%
E1b1b1c1-M34	2.40%	1.80%	0	2%
G-M201	3.80%	2.70%	4.80%	3.50%
H-M69	1.40%	1.80%	14.30%	2.30%
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170	0	1.80%	4.80%	0.90%
I1-M253	1.90%	6.30%	0	3.20%
I2a-P37b	27.50%	1.80%	0	17.50%
I2b1-M223	1.90%	1.80%	4.80%	2%
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2	3.30%	1.80%	0	2.60%
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172	4.70%	2.70%	9.50%	4.40%
J2a4b-M67	2.80%	2.70%	9.50%	3.20%
J2b2-M241	5.20%	13.50%	4.80%	7.90%
L-M22	0.50%	0%	0	0.30%
N1c-Tat	0.50%	0	0	0.30%
P*(xR1)-92R7	0.50%	0	4.80%	0.60%
R1*-M173	0.50%	0	0	0.30%
R1a1-SRY1532 *moe podolu	14.20%	12.60%	4.80%	13.10%
R1b1-P25	11.40%	18%	23.80%	14.30%
T-M70	1.90%	0	0	1.20%
TOTAL	100.00%	99.90%	100.20%	100.00%
* M448=L122 M459 SRY10831.2=SRY1532.2 | M516=L120 mutations

Its a study by Macedonian Forensic Laboratory. Some Mavedonian member on this forum posted the results. The Albanian section shows big difference from previous studies. And this study too has it shortcomings since 115 people in statistical point of view do not guarantie 2.5% accuracy.
But my point in Italian genetics is that haplogroups are not spread out evenly. North Italia is R1b, R1a majoritty and south Italians are E+G+J+T majority. In Albanian case are more or less even.That's why Lega Nord see themselfs differently and want their Padania Republic, or Venetians for that matter. So Umberto Bossi without being a genetists by training has noted the differences. This was my point. THat geneticaly Italy is a union of more than two people. Culturaly though is one country.
​

 

[adamo]

I would say more north-central Italians are R1b dominant, southern Italians are E3b+J2+R1b with G2 being present and T being present at even lower levels than G. The celts of course brought R1b from the north of the alps (north-west particularly.) the Greeks and Etruscans brought J2 ( the latter may have had a minor middle eastern J1+T substratum among them.) the Greeks are also responsible for much E3b (colonies of Magna Grecia) of which the majority is balkanian E-V13, whatever E3b that isn't V-13 probably arrived via north-Africa (Tunisia) being E-M81, as we can see in low % in parts of Sicily ( also has V13). As for hg's T and G they are much more mysterious, G seems to be a very ancient migration from Greece and turkey before that, tracing its way eventually to the mountains of Georgia (P15-G2a). T is even more difficult to figure out; some say its linked to the ancient Canaanite Phoenicians; this is possible as studies are revealing the oldest ages of T seem to be found near the levant and in Iran.

 

[adamo]

Maybe the Etruscans had scarce/rare J1+T+L elements, as they arrived from Central Asia, maybe that's why some 31% of aquilean men are T+L.

 

[Nobody1]

I would say more north-central Italians are R1b dominant, southern Italians are E3b+J2+R1b with G2 being present and T being present at even lower levels than G. The celts of course brought R1b from the north of the alps (north-west particularly.) the Greeks and Etruscans brought J2 ( the latter may have had a minor middle eastern J1+T substratum among them.) the Greeks are also responsible for much E3b (colonies of Magna Grecia) of which the majority is balkanian E-V13, whatever E3b that isn't V-13 probably arrived via north-Africa (Tunisia) being E-M81, as we can see in low % in parts of Sicily ( also has V13). As for hg's T and G they are much more mysterious, G seems to be a very ancient migration from Greece and turkey before that, tracing its way eventually to the mountains of Georgia (P15-G2a). T is even more difficult to figure out; some say its linked to the ancient Canaanite Phoenicians; this is possible as studies are revealing the oldest ages of T seem to be found near the levant and in Iran.

Yes, G2a is def. from the Neolithics [Ötzi was G2a2b (L91)]; and its still very consistant across Italy (8.1% North - 16.2% South) and Sardinia (13.4%);

I wouldnt associate E-V13 with the Greeks of Magna Graecia since E-V13 is also high in the North
(9.3% NW - 11% NE);
prob. also Neolithic: From the Near Eat via the Balkans;
Cruciani et al 2007 - p.1307
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

R1b-L21 in Sicily could be also widespread in the Lombard communities arrived in Sicily with the Norman conquest.

I would assume that the 7.1% R1b-U152 in Sicily is associated with the Medieval Lombards from Lombardy

 

[binx]

Albanian sample is too small (30 pple), to be taken seriously. R1b should be 2% higher, J is overblown, should be at least 5% lower, I1 should be at least 2% higher.. My estimates come from Albanians in Macedoni studies. When sample became 115 people E in Albanins from macedonia from 38% came down to 32%, but R1a shot up.

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That Italy is a country historically and genetically divided with many internal differences is a very well-known fact. Albania is not genetically heterogeneous too, it's also a fact. National identity is not only a genetics matter.

 

[binx]

- The highest frequency of R1b-U152 + subclades are found in Tuscany (37.4%), Emilia-Romagna (31%), Piedmont-Lombardy (31%) and Lazio-Umbria-Marche (21%). This roughly correspond to my R1b-U152 map and is in line with my hypothesis that U152 represents the Bronze Age Italic people. If U152 were merely Gaulish Celtic it wouldn't peak in Tuscany and would not be so high in Central Italy in general.

Etruscans settled mainly in Southern Tuscany (roughly south of the river Arno), Northern Latium (roughly north of the river Tevere), Western Umbria (roughly west of the river Tevere). In Northern Tuscany there were also Ligurians and Celts. In Eastern Tuscany there were also Umbrians.

 

[binx]

I1 only in North East Italy and romagna area

Stronger in North East (9 %) and Bologna (10%) (not Romagna area), but also in North West Italy (3,1 %), Tuscany (2,4), Umbria-Marche (1,5%) and South Italy (2,5%). In any case, all the samples seems to be too small.

 

[binx]

Yes, G2a is def. from the Neolithics [Ötzi was G2a2b (L91)]; and its still very consistant across Italy (8.1% North - 16.2% South) and Sardinia (13.4%);

I wouldnt associate E-V13 with the Greeks of Magna Graecia since E-V13 is also high in the North
(9.3% NW - 11% NE);
prob. also Neolithic: From the Near Eat via the Balkans;
Cruciani et al 2007 - p.1307
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

I would assume that the 7.1% R1b-U152 in Sicily is associated with the Medieval Lombards from Lombardy

I completely agree with you. R1b-U152 in Sicily could be associated with the Medieval Lombards from medieval Lombardy (Piedmont, Northern Liguria, modern-day Lombardy, Western Emilia).

 

[Vallicanus]

Etruscans settled mainly in Southern Tuscany (roughly south of the river Arno), Northern Latium (roughly north of the river Tevere), Western Umbria (roughly east of the river Tevere). In Northern Tuscany there were also Ligurians and Celts. In Eastern Tuscany there were also Umbrians.

WEST of the Tiber (Tevere).

 

[binx]

Maybe the Etruscans had scarce/rare J1+T+L elements, as they arrived from Central Asia, maybe that's why some 31% of aquilean men are T+L.

Thomas Jefferson belonged to T haplogroup.

 

[binx]

WEST of the Tiber (Tevere).

You're Right.

 

[Maciamo]

Etruscans settled mainly in Southern Tuscany (roughly south of the river Arno), Northern Latium (roughly north of the river Tevere), Western Umbria (roughly west of the river Tevere). In Northern Tuscany there were also Ligurians and Celts. In Eastern Tuscany there were also Umbrians.

The Etruscans came after the Italics and intermingled with them. The Etruscans probably brought various Y-haplogroups like E1b1b, G2a and J2. In any case, R1b-U152 is higher in northern Tuscany than in southern Tuscany, probably because the latter has a higher proportion of Etruscan lineages.

 

[Maciamo]

Yes, G2a is def. from the Neolithics [Ötzi was G2a2b (L91)]; and its still very consistant across Italy (8.1% North - 16.2% South) and Sardinia (13.4%);

I wouldnt associate E-V13 with the Greeks of Magna Graecia since E-V13 is also high in the North
(9.3% NW - 11% NE);
prob. also Neolithic: From the Near Eat via the Balkans;
Cruciani et al 2007 - p.1307
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

Actually a lot of E-V13 and J2b in southern Italy (Salento and Calabrian Sila) and along the Adriatic coast can be attributed to the Albanians who settled in those regions from the late Middle Ages onwards. These also happen to be the hotspots for both E1b1b and J2 in Italy. Obviously the Greeks also brought both haplogroups, but the Albanians were the biggest group of immigrants to southern Italy in the last 600 years and surely contributed to raise the frequencies of both haplogroups.

 

[Vallicanus]

The Etruscans came after the Italics and intermingled with them. The Etruscans probably brought various Y-haplogroups like E1b1b, G2a and J2. In any case, R1b-U152 is higher in northern Tuscany than in southern Tuscany, probably because the latter has a higher proportion of Etruscan lineages.

Maciamo, do we know if the 76pc of R1b in the Garfagnana (NW Tuscany) is mainly R1b-U152?

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, do we know if the 76pc of R1b in the Garfagnana (NW Tuscany) is mainly R1b-U152?

No, it was just PxR1a, so it includes all subclades of R1b and even Q and R2. Anyway the sample size was tiny (n=42) and therefore not very reliable.

However this new study has similar figures for La Spezia-Massa (Northwest Tuscany, only 40 km away from Garfagnana):

- 17 samples out of 24 are R1b (71%)
- 9 samples out of 24 are R1b-U152 (37.5%)

53% of all R1b is R1b-U152.

The 8 other R1b samples are M269 (2x), P312 (4x) and L21 (2x). Mostly Celtic R1b (25% of all haplogroups), although M269 could also be Greek/Albanian or Etruscan/Anatolian.

In contrast there is less R1b in Grosetto-Siena (southern Tuscany):

- 42 out of 86 samples are R1b (49%)
- 32 samples out of 86 are R1b-U152 (37%)

Even though R1b is lower, this time 76% of all R1b is R1b-U152.

Among the 10 other R1b samples we find five Greco-Etruscan M269, four Germanic U106 (incl. one L48), and one Celtic P312. The high proportion of M269 could indeed point to an Etruscan origin. Let's also note the 5% of Germanic R1b.


The sample size from Pistoia (central northern Tuscany) is very small but fits just in between the two other Tuscan regions:

- 8 out of 13 samples are R1b (61.5%)

Among which 5 are U152 (38.5% of the total, or 62.5% of all R1b), 1 is M269, 1 is P312 and 1 is U106.


Amazingly the percentage of R1b-U152 is so-to-say identical in all three Tuscan regions, around 37-38% of all lineages.

This analysis supports the hypothesis that Italic people brought R1b-U152 to Italy.

Just a quick comparison with Umbria.

In Foligno (central-east Umbria):

- 14 of 37 samples are R1b (38%)
- 9 of 37 samples are R1b-U152 (24.5%)

64% of all R1b in Foligno is U152.

 

[zanipolo]

Stronger in North East (9 %) and Bologna (10%) (not Romagna area), but also in North West Italy (3,1 %), Tuscany (2,4), Umbria-Marche (1,5%) and South Italy (2,5%). In any case, all the samples seems to be too small.

?
Bologna (Italian pronunciation: [boˈloɲɲa] ( listen); Emilian: Bulåggna pronounced [buˈləɲɲa]; Latin: Bononia) is the largest city (and the capital) of Emilia-Romagna Region in Northern Italy.

The I1 in NEI comes from west-finland satakunda lands. As per STRs
The J1a-410 comes from between north-ossetia and georgia lands and not the levant for NEI. As per STRs
The L-M20 only comes from the Ladins in Friuli and Veneto ( alpine areas )
G2a-P15 is the same in NEI as per other alpine and pyrennes areas
E-V13 in NEI comes from grecian thrace area ( ie North-east Greece)

I left all other data at work...maybe tomorrow if I remember

 

[zanipolo]

Thomas Jefferson belonged to T haplogroup.

yes, but his line/alleles/STRs was traced from saudi-arabia, through Egypt, ship to Spain, Portugal, wales and USA