italian genetics

[zanipolo]

Bologna is Emilia, not Romagna.

Romagna starts in the eastern province of Bologna: Borgo Tossignano, Casalfiumanese, Castel del Rio, Dozza, Fontanelice, Imola, Mordano, Monterenzio (frazione Villa Sassonero, nella val Sillaro).

err ok, but its only 1 region .
then I guess Ferrara is "capitol" of romagna, Parma is "capitol" of Emilia
the Este family of Ferrara and the Farnese family of Parma

ty

 

[zanipolo]

In regards to missing R1a1 in NEI, I looked through the ancient studies of illyrians from 2007-2010 ( USA, spanish and croatian paper) and also noticed no R1a for the veneti?

but I have seen some numbers of R1a before...........maybe these are friulian numbers for R1a

Survey only noted R1a, R1b, E, J and I

the FST of this survey placed the Veneti, Histri, Luburni and Norici as being very similar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_index

 

[Vallicanus]

Maciamo, I have a question on nomenclature.
Boattini's Italy study separates R1b-L2 and RIb-U152.

Do you say they both come under the R1b-U152 umbrella?

 

[adamo]

They would maybe both go under the P312 umbrella but no L-21 and U-152 are 2 different sub-branches of P312, L-21 does not go under u152 as a same category

 

[Vallicanus]

I actually wrote L2 not L21, Adamo.

 

[Nobody1]

Maciamo, I have a question on nomenclature.
Boattini's Italy study separates R1b-L2 and RIb-U152.

Do you say they both come under the R1b-U152 umbrella?

No, Boattini et al 2013 does not seperate it;
-it branches it into R1b-U152 and its sub-clades [L2 / L20]

U152 - R1b1b2a1b4
___ L2 - R1b1b2a1b4c
_____ L20 - R1b1b2a1b4c1

 

[Nobody1]

@ Yetos

the story of the Arbereshe

Adrian Fortescue - The Uniate Eastern Churches (1923)
It is difficult to fix the exact date of the first arrival of the Albanian colonists in these parts. The first date I have found for certain, so far, is 1448. In that year Alphonsus I of Aragon, in return for services rendered by Albanian soldiers in his pay against the French, granted them lands in Sicily with a certain measure of autonomy under their Captains George and Basil Reres.*

In 1456 there was a great earthquake throughout Calabria and Apulia. After this the Neapolitan Government granted large districts of the country laid waste to Albanian colonists, in order that they might reclaim it.

When Scanderbeg had fought for Ferdinand I of Naples, he was rewarded by the grant of land at S Pietro in Galatina. He did not himself occupy his new estate; but his son and many of his countrymen came.

Other Albanians came in 1467 after Scanderbeg's death, many more during the Pontificate of Paul II (1468-1471); others, again, after the year 1478, when the Sultan finally subjected all Albania to his rule.

The town of Korone (Κορώνη) in the Peloponnesos had surrendered freely to the Venetians in 1204. Later many Albanians came to settle here (-Korone). In 1498 Bayazed II seized the town. In 1532 Charles II sent a fleet under Andrew Doria to retake it. The Christian Albanians rose against the Turks and helped the Imperial fleet. But soon after the Turks recaptured the place. Then, fearing their vengeance, the Albanians fled to Italy. There were more than 200 ships full of them; their bishop Benedict came too. So they arrived in the kingdom of Naples. The Government gave them grants of land and money. The Albanians of Korone spread throughout the kingdom. Some joined Greek refugees in the city of Naples, and there formed a community of the Byzantine rite; under Prince Thomas Palaiologos.

*These were the sons of Demetrio Reres. who had led the Albanian forces for Alphonsus. His diploma is printed by Rodota iii, 52-53. The name Reres occurs constantly among the Albanians in Italy.
---

So, there were many waves of Albanians (Arbereshe) coming to the South of Italy [Kingdom of the two Sicilies] from 1448 - 1532;

Albanian soldiers of Reres and Skanderbeg and the Albanian citizens of Korone. 1448-1532

and acc. to latest census ~310,000 Arbereshe in South Italy - post#86 Edwin E. Jaques; many more in the New World;

Skanderbeg was great firends with
King Ferdinand I of Aragon-Naples and Pope Pius II;

Skanderbeg - statue in Rome

---

as for Byzantine times

Michael Attaleiates - 11th cen. Byzantine
Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command against their leaders...

there were already Albanians in the Byzantine Catapanate of Italy, but they all were Latinised (later on) by the Normans;

---

The Arbereshe of the former Two Sicilies [Calabria, Sicily, Basilicata, Molise] --- Have and always had a very strong Albanain Identity and Consciousness;
- Mussolini was not needed for that!

From Luca Matrenga - Gavril Dara - Today, always strong Albanian identity;

 

[adamo]

My error sorry lol

 

[binx]

The Arbereshe of the former Two Sicilies [Calabria, Sicily, Basilicata, Molise] --- Have and always had a very strong Albanain Identity and Consciousness;
- Mussolini was not needed for that!

From Luca Matrenga - Gavril Dara - Today, always strong Albanian identity;

The Arbereshe identity and consciousness was created/powered during the XIX century (Chetta, De Rada, Giuseppe Crispi).

 

[MOESAN]

Second look at the new sturvey about Italy Y and mt-DNA:
Y-DNA (I have too less data for mt-DNA in general)


some percentages seem very astonishing compared to previous surveys, but I remember these samples are not so big, not enough yet, and Italy is still a very morceled «patchwork» country with a lot of different origins plus founder effects not already erased by crossings:


compared to Maciamo %s this survey gives few % to Y-I2b (M223 in the survey, before M284) as a whole (0,8%, 1,3% in central Italy, against a supposed 4-6%), being Sardinia the most (2,4%) -


Y-J2a seems very stronger than Y-J2b (the Balkans one) – as a whole it seems stronger in East than in West – for the South and Sicily no surprise, a greek influence was waited – for the N-E I hesitate: no Greeks there, so: a coming through Danau river or (maybe «and») an etruscan influence? I have no sufficient knowledge about more recent history of Italy but I do not remember an important colonization coming there from South or Greece... Y-J2b shows a slightly stronger imput in East vs West, for South vs North it too unsure, there is no evidence here – the 5,2% of C-S and 3,0% in S could be the result of some Balkans people, apparently more by sea than by land (the 0% of N-E Italy amazes me: it is not the only amazing % of this survey: already at Neolithic and Calcholithic ages it seems people came by land through N-E Italy, coming from the Balkans... -
as a whole too the total percentages of Y-J2 seem to me very weak in South and N-East: from other surveys I have vaguely calculated a 22% for all Y-J2 in South, and found a 27% in E-N-E Italy, against 16,1% and 13,8% in this survey ?...


Y-R1a absent from N-E Italy?!? it seems a nonsense! - even if upon tiny enough samples, I noticed 9,1% around Friul and 6,7% in Trentin – S-R1a in South could really be from Greeks...


Same surprise for Y-G2 on the other side: I had only around 7% in -Italy when they found there 16,2%!) -


a surprise too with Y-I1 found at high values here in N-E >> 9% and Emilia >> 10% - no big surprise for N-E (Longobards apport?+ some Goths?) but in Emilia: somes Goths there too, ecause Celts were not so rich of it – I accept a history lesson immediatly!!!


no surprise about Y-E1b – majority of V13 (some M81 in Emilia and Sicily, but very tiny)


the only percentages that did not afraid me are the Y-R1b ones: it is true they are the denser ones in every study – Y-R1b more common in Emilia and Toscana: OK, Lombardia is strong too I think, but here it was put along with Liguria and Piemonte – their N-E seems poor enough ut...
interesting: the percentages of «new R1b» (down U106 and P312) vs «old R1b» (up) are very denser in the regions where global R1b is denser - in North-East where R1b in this survey is less dense, we found a bit more «old R1b»... compare:
Emilia: tot R1: 58,5% vs old: 11,8% / N-E-Italy: 37,0% vs 21,4% / S-Italy: 25,7% vs 33,5% / Sardinia: 18,2% vs 44,5% ! no comment! - this central position of N-E makes me to think their «old R1b» came for a part from the Balkans, even if I have no proof at this moment – the U152 relative percentages compared to global Y-R1b are slightly stronger in North as a whole (but best: Toscana) but compared to «new Y-R1b» we see some discrepancies: it is not always the strongest places for total Y-R1b nor for «new-R1b» which have the better scores: Sardinia is ahead with 80,2% U152/ «newR1b» preceding Toscana: 77,9% and S-C-Italy: 65, 2%: so the N-N-W traditional lands in italy for Y-R1b received proportionally less U152 than central regions, and, if leaving aside the «old R1b» in Sardinia, Sardinians received I think lately enough «new R1b» and they were Italics, maybe more on the Umbrians side than on the Latins side – the high percentage of L21 in Emilia even if too magnified in this survey, could the proof of a strong celtic element there and explain the relative «paucity» for U152/totla R1b... Emilia received a lot of Celts if not more than Lombardia (look at dialects in italy) -
I wait more and more surveys of this kind but upon more detailed regions: history of Italy requires it -
buona sera

 

[zanipolo]

Here is the mtDNA table from the supplementary data.

MtDna ...no african L?


"whole control region and 39 coding SNPs of mtDNA ... which yielded to 79 distinct mtDNA haplogroups (including sublineages) ... 865 samples were successfully sequenced for the whole control region"

All samples are 10400+ (M) or 10873+ (N)

The coding region confirms that there were no L present and all of the latter were either M or N.
The paper uses the control region to further differentiate - for example the various types of T, J, U etc.

 

[zanipolo]

as others stated from other studies of this paper:............

The conclusion, that men of the G haplogroup are MESOLITHIC in Europe.

G is concentrated now in the mountains of the Caucasus. And sporadically in the rest of Europe.

Previous orthodoxy was that G's distribution was clinal, radiating from the Caucasus through the Middle East, to Europe, consistent with a Neolithic spread of the "farming" haplogroups.

With recent studies showing:

-G is old
-G is widely distributed and concentrated in refuge/isolated areas from the Alps to the Pyrenees to islands like Sardinia
-G in so many ancient samples

That G was the best candidate for the "original" YC Hg in Europe.

It would make sense that subsequent waves - wave after wave - pushed the marker into the most remote areas, where it survived.

This paper seems to conclude that too. Especially with the age and the close relationship with the G men in remote parts of Germany and remote parts of Italy.

IMO, I agree that G is the first ydna marker in Italy

 

[MOESAN]

Oh, you mean the Irish-American soldier ref;
who knows, def. not an option that is the primary, but an option nonetheless;



I dont know, why you consider the Umbrians as the the last Indo-European wave, given what the classical authors wrote:

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy. —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

Dionysius - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people.

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit]

Also, the Herodotus map only mentions the Ombri - [next to Thyrreni, Eneti, Ligyes]

The Ligurians are a key people in the Po valley, (also Rhone Valley and Maritime Alps);
It seems [based on Anthropology] that the Ligurians were already present in the Neolithic and were [Brachycephalic] Pre-Indo-Europeans akin to Lapps.

Smithsonian Institution - Report of the Board of Regents: Vol.45 (1891)
In another Neolithic cave, called the Caverna della Matta [north Italy], an Iberian skull was found with an index of 68, and a Ligurian skull with an index of 84. No anthropologist would admit that these skulls could have belonged to men of the same race.

Roberto Bosi - The Lapps (1977)
Then [Rudolf Karl] Virchow. examining a number of Lappish skulls at Helsinki, Lund and Copenhagen, in conjunction with ancient Ligurian skulls, discovered many mutual features suggesting an identical strain.

The Umbrians must have mixed with the Ligurians,
as Plutarch informs us that the Ligurians referred to themselves as AMBROnes in connections to their Origins;

Anthropological evidence:

Anthropological Society of London - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
"when I look upon the delineations of the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between Allemands and Germans.

The same scenario happened in the Swiss Lake Dwellings - Indo-Europeans mixed with a Brachycephalic (pos. Ligures) Pre-Indo-European people.

George Bradshaw - Bradshaw's illustrated hand-book to Switzerland and the Tyrol (1899)
Swiss Lake-dwellings - In his careful investigations of pile dwellings, Dr. Studer met with two extreme types of skulls, the brachycephalic and the dolikoccphalic; the former, at Schaffis and Lüschery (Lake of Bienne), belonging to the pure Stone period, and the latter, at Vinolz and Sutz, to the Bronze period. The facts point to an invasion by the Bronze men, involving a complete transformation of the group of domestic animals; the horse appears for the first time, and new races of sheep and dogs replace the older forms of the Stone period. The occurrence of mesocephalic, and even considerably shortened skulls, in the Bronze period, shows that there was no extinction of the brachycephalic race, but that the two races mixed.

I will post more about the Ligures in History & Civilisations > Who were the Sabines?


Personally, i think the last Indo-Europeans arriving in Italy were
the Illyrians in the South-East [Messapii / Iapyges]


I disagree about your Y-DNA Hg E analysis.
Area I = Liguria + Lombardy + Piedmont and is only high on E-V13 [9.3%]
1.8% other E-M78 sub-clades and 0.6% E-M123; thats all;
- so i wouldnt consider Liguria isolated to be any stronger;

I agree with your view about the present-Ligurians in contrast to the ancient-Ligurians;
but there is an historic region Lunigiana that was/is still very remote and has a grand ancient-Ligurian (Archaeological) Legacy.
One sample-set of Tuscany (in Boattini et al 2013) is from that region. Tuscany being 37% R1b-U152

Some remarks about your constructive contestation:
Herodote lived since 484 BC and so did not see the Umbrians installation in Italy - (to be correct I have to say I 'm born later...) - Herodote can inspire confidence about what he saw with his eyes, here he does only report some opinions - the same for the others authors you cite about the Umbrians age - I red somewhere Umbrians came about -1000 in Italy - have we a witness from the -1000s ? -
concerning Y-E in N-Italy I spoke about Y-E1b in general, not only about V-13 even if I think V13 is the dominant SNP there - but in a surveys (short enough concerning samples it's true) I saw a total Y-DE of 24,1% in coastal modern Liguria, and as I don' t think Y-D was the majority, I could suppose Y-E was strong enough there... I affirm again here that every survey we have is to light for sampling and we are obliged to compile all the surveys to have a more accurate view but then the regions are more or less mixed, too imprecise, helas!about skulls and old Ligurians, you and me know the Ligurians, I-E of Western I-E stock, acculturated pre-I-E populations where "autochtonous" dominated by number the ex-newcomers of agricultrual colonists-

&: I'm confused by the comparisons between Ligurians and Umbrians (where found them this Umbrians skulls?) or Germans and "Allemands" (curious terminology) - for these last ones, it is sure the Germanics tribes getting down toward South Germany mixed with different pre-(not proto-) germanic people, and "Allemands" are a modern population but here we are a bit far from the present subject - good night

 

[Nobody1]

MtDna ...no african L?


"whole control region and 39 coding SNPs of mtDNA ... which yielded to 79 distinct mtDNA haplogroups (including sublineages) ... 865 samples were successfully sequenced for the whole control region"

All samples are 10400+ (M) or 10873+ (N)

The coding region confirms that there were no L present and all of the latter were either M or N.
The paper uses the control region to further differentiate - for example the various types of T, J, U etc.

I have also noticed that;
All mtDNA Haplogroups being either of the 10400 M* (minority) or 10873 N* (majority) lineage

I double checked it and it is correct; all figures add up to over 98% - over 99%;
something also other studies have confirmed;

 

[oriental]

Don't forget megalithic Europe was matriarchal before arrival of Indo-Europeans so women mtdna would dominate in regions as men would have to leave home. With patriarchal system it is the opposite with women leaving home.

As we are all living in the modern age in patriarchal societies, we have that perspective which distorts analysis of ancient societies.

 

[MOESAN]

as others stated from other studies of this paper:............

The conclusion, that men of the G haplogroup are MESOLITHIC in Europe.

G is concentrated now in the mountains of the Caucasus. And sporadically in the rest of Europe.

Previous orthodoxy was that G's distribution was clinal, radiating from the Caucasus through the Middle East, to Europe, consistent with a Neolithic spread of the "farming" haplogroups.

With recent studies showing:

-G is old
-G is widely distributed and concentrated in refuge/isolated areas from the Alps to the Pyrenees to islands like Sardinia
-G in so many ancient samples

That G was the best candidate for the "original" YC Hg in Europe.

It would make sense that subsequent waves - wave after wave - pushed the marker into the most remote areas, where it survived.

This paper seems to conclude that too. Especially with the age and the close relationship with the G men in remote parts of Germany and remote parts of Italy.

IMO, I agree that G is the first ydna marker in Italy

interesting point! I think too that some remote places could serve as refuge for older populations but here too we have to be cautious: we need more than a scientific tool to make our opinion:
for Switzerland, by instance, we konw southern populations came from mediterranea through the Rhone river valley: we have their culture: neolithical post-cardial (Y-G supposed ot have send this culture) chassean, we have their skulls! we have other diverse skeletal remnants of mediterranean subtypes of cardial assignation taking the Garonne valley about the -3000 going northwards to Poitou: these traces do not evocate the mesolithic/...
other points: some conquering populations leave the rivers sides to vanquished populations, keeping the lands between plain and highlands... we saw in past more than a time very different ways to hold land so... concerning mountains, I think that at some stage of History they were very attractive because it was there men found mineral ores...
in more recent time, with more organised politics and economy, the populations accumulated on axis of communication, it is true: but has that been the unique rule at avery time??? and at old times these axis of communication (rivers) could lead people
until very high places! mountain pass were used! and the BBs by instance were not afraid by mountains nor by coasts, not at all...from sea to rivers, from rivers to mountains, and with help of passes, from moutains to rivers and from rivers to sea (not the same sea)

 

[Nobody1]

Some remarks about your constructive contestation:
Herodote lived since 484 BC and so did not see the Umbrians installation in Italy - (to be correct I have to say I 'm born later...) - Herodote can inspire confidence about what he saw with his eyes, here he does only report some opinions - the same for the others authors you cite about the Umbrians age - I red somewhere Umbrians came about -1000 in Italy - have we a witness from the -1000s ? -
concerning Y-E in N-Italy I spoke about Y-E1b in general, not only about V-13 even if I think V13 is the dominant SNP there - but in a surveys (short enough concerning samples it's true) I saw a total Y-DE of 24,1% in coastal modern Liguria, and as I don' t think Y-D was the majority, I could suppose Y-E was strong enough there... I affirm again here that every survey we have is to light for sampling and we are obliged to compile all the surveys to have a more accurate view but then the regions are more or less mixed, too imprecise, helas!about skulls and old Ligurians, you and me know the Ligurians, I-E of Western I-E stock, acculturated pre-I-E populations where "autochtonous" dominated by number the ex-newcomers of agricultrual colonists-

For all those questions there is Archaeology for answers,
take a look Page 2 post #44

I dont know the person that told you about Umbrians emerging in 1000 BC, so i wouldnt know about that;

Terremare emerged [Archaeological attested] 1500 BC and Urnfield Villanova [Archaeological attested] 1300 BC;
Those are the Solid Facts

Anthropology [the sources i quoted] is very clear and speaks for itself; i cant add anymore specifics to it; the studies and sources i quoted are (very) specific enough;

 

[Yetos]

@ Nobody

the difference is obvious

you name Arberesh all Albanians of Italy.

while terminology for Greek academics Arberesh is only for the Corone Migrants to Italy,

so for Arvanites and Greeks all Albanians who went to Italy are not Arberesh,

only the areas I mention. the 9 villages.

now if want to tell me that in Taranto migrated Albanians, ok I do not Deny, But they are not Arberesh,
they are Albanians.

so I agree that in Italy might live 200 000 or 500 000 Albanians, but not Arberesh,

Arberesh until 1939 where isolated in their own culture, Mussolini forced them to change names and toponyms etc,

the distinguish all Albanians that live in italy are Arberesh, and all Orthodox Albanians are Arbanites is wrong
is a propagandistic claim, that started from Mussolini etc

Arberesh was the name of 9 villages around Hora Sicily and Ai Dimitri Corone, which share common History.
the rest are Albanians of Italy, Shqiptars of Italy etc etc etc.

IT IS LIKE NAMING ALL GREEKS THAT LIVE IN ITALY AS GRECANI.

if you ask zanipolo he will tell you about a church in Venice San Giorgio, where Greeks settled and merchandisefrom 1400.
these people were Greeks not Gracani, cause their story is different,
cause Grecani are the remnants of ancient Greeks in Magna Grecia, and not the Greeks that went after Con/polis fall.
if you name the Greeks that went to Italy at ottoman times 500 years, same with the Greeks of Lecce which are there more than 2500 years you are making a big mistake.



the difference is obvious.

Now if Mussolini order to build statues or change names does not change History,

ARBERESH ARE THE ONES WHO REVOLT WITH MANIAKIS, MOVED NEXT TO PALAIOLOGOS IN MANIAKI/CORONE, AND LEAVE WITH ANDREA DORIA TO SOUTH ITALY.
THE REST ARE ALBANIANS of ITALY.

their songs speak about bukure Morea and Corone.

read their own story.


Il Arberesh che formano la comunità Arvaniti del sud d'Italia, ha lasciato la Grecia (Peloponneso) nel 1534 dopo la caduta del castello di Koroni e la loro consegna alle Turkalbanesu e si stabilì in Italia meridionale e Sicilia.

Gli sforzi per la dehellenize Arberesh continua fino ad oggi. Un esempio è la nuova denominazione della frazione Piana dei Greci a Piana dei Albanesi nel 1939 dal regime di Mussolini, anche se fino ad oggi si chiama HORA.

their song (a kind of anthem) say

Abbiamo lasciato alle spalle in Corone (Peloponnese-Grecia), i nostri beni e le nostre merci, ma hanno preso Cristo con noi, oh mia bella Morea (Peloponneso). Profondamente triste, con le lacrime agli occhi, ci duole per voi Arberia. mia battenti rondinella lieve, quando si torna ancora una volta a Corone, non troverete le nostre case, né i nostri ragazzi bello, ma solo un cane (il Τurki), può venire una morte su di lui. Quando le navi diffondere le vele e le nostre terre è stato perso per gli occhi, tutti gli uomini con un sospiro e le donne con un gemito gridò: Get out Ghost, divorare noi. oh mia Morea. oh Arberi.

do you want it in their own dialect?

I have travel S Italy for a whole summer as student. and I want to go again.

 

[albanopolis]

@ Nobody

the difference is obvious

you name Arberesh all Albanians of Italy.

while terminology for Greek academics Arberesh is only for the Corone Migrants to Italy,

so for Arvanites and Greeks all Albanians who went to Italy are not Arberesh,

only the areas I mention. the 9 villages.

now if want to tell me that in Taranto migrated Albanians, ok I do not Deny, But they are not Arberesh,
they are Albanians.

so I agree that in Italy might live 200 000 or 500 000 Albanians, but not Arberesh,

Arberesh until 1939 where isolated in their own culture, Mussolini forced them to change names and toponyms etc,

the distinguish all Albanians that live in italy are Arberesh, and all Orthodox Albanians are Arbanites is wrong
is a propagandistic claim, that started from Mussolini etc

Arberesh was the name of 9 villages around Hora Sicily and Ai Dimitri Corone, which share common History.
the rest are Albanians of Italy, Shqiptars of Italy etc etc etc.

IT IS LIKE NAMING ALL GREEKS THAT LIVE IN ITALY AS GRECANI.

if you ask zanipolo he will tell you about a church in Venice San Giorgio, where Greeks settled and merchandisefrom 1400.
these people were Greeks not Gracani, cause their story is different,
cause Grecani are the remnants of ancient Greeks in Magna Grecia, and not the Greeks that went after Con/polis fall.
if you name the Greeks that went to Italy at ottoman times 500 years, same with the Greeks of Lecce which are there more than 2500 years you are making a big mistake.



the difference is obvious.

Now if Mussolini order to build statues or change names does not change History,

ARBERESH ARE THE ONES WHO REVOLT WITH MANIAKIS, MOVED NEXT TO PALAIOLOGOS IN MANIAKI/CORONE, AND LEAVE WITH ANDREA DORIA TO SOUTH ITALY.
THE REST ARE ALBANIANS of ITALY.

There is not propoganda here. Arbereshe even if they were 1 mil would make no difference for Albania. They are Italian citizens, in Italian land. The truth is: Arbereshe are all Albanians that went to Italy from 15th to 16th centuary, as a result of Ottoman conquest. Some of them went there From Morea (peloponesis), others from Albania itself. Many were orthodox but some were catholics. The Endonim of Albania at that time was Arberia that's why they call themselves Arberesh. After 17th centuary the endonim of Albania became Shqiperia, so from that time and on Albanians call themself Shqipetare. If I settle today in Italy I will not call myself Arberesh. So ther are 200 000 of them today in Italy. Had they not immigrated en masse to USA, Argentina, Canada, Australia, Brasil their numbers would have been close to 3 milion. Most of Arbereshe settled in not so productive land, and were extremly poor so immigration was a strong magnet. As for Albannians in Italy officialy are 500 000.(excluding Arbereshe). Most of them are italian citisens too. So, again there is no propoganda here. There is nothing to gain from false propoganda. We are stating facts. Either way those facts don't make us look good or bad in any way, so there is no need for propoganda.

 

[zanipolo]

if you ask zanipolo he will tell you about a church in Venice San Giorgio, where Greeks settled and merchandisefrom 1400.
these people were Greeks not Gracani, cause their story is different,
cause Grecani are the remnants of ancient Greeks in Magna Grecia, and not the Greeks that went after Con/polis fall.
if you name the Greeks that went to Italy at ottoman times 500 years, same with the Greeks of Lecce which are there more than 2500 years you are making a big mistake.

you mean this church, not the other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Giorgio_dei_Greci