less homogeneous "populations" are Italians and French ?
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zanipolo
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@Maciano
regarding the slovenes and based on the knowledge that they state they are from modern Poland/czech lands and that M458 ( slavic marker ) is no longer a "polish" marker, do you think that the slovenes might have always been there ( in slovenia ) but became slavic via language after 700AD.
I found no slovene migration unless the Avars where these slovenes OR where the slovenes the "east germanic" tribe and later became slavic via language?
focus on the possibility that it was rather the Przeworsk culture expanding south-east that managed to include those "Carpathian" M458 people.
We know that Przeworsk has also influenced some territories further east (in Western Ukraine just north of the Carpathian region) and this is quite commonly interpreted as invading the territory of the local Dacian tribe named Costoboci (commonly identified with the so-called Lipiţa culture located on the upper Dniester). Intriguingly, such a potential "clash" has been reported in ancient sources as a conflict between the Costoboci and the Vandalic tribe of Asdingi (which happened around 170-180 AD), hence some people consider this to be just another proof that Przeworsk was in fact a Germanic culture represented by Vandals (who were supposed to be reported earlier as Lugii because of their hypothetical initial association with the assimilated Celtic population of Southern and Central Poland).
Since it is quite obvious that M458 and especially CTS11962, including of course L1029, are all very strongly associated with the entire Slavic population, let's assume for the sake of this discussion that Przeworsk was not a Germanic but rather a Pra-Slavic culture while its relatively small South-Eastern part that could have shown a significant proportion of M458 became a center of the subsequent Slavic expansion. One problem with this scenario is that this relatively small region (encompassing SE Poland and some neighboring territories) has actually never become a significant and independent cultural center that would be responsible for spreading not only the Slavic culture but also the Slavic genes in all directions. Importantly, just like all remaining parts of the Przeworsk culture, this region has undergone a significant collapse in the late 4th and early 5t century, and this is a period when we would expect the Slavic population (and especially M458) to significantly increase in size rather than shrink down. Finally, it is well documented that the Korchak-Prague culture (evidently Early Slavic!) that has been occupying the SE Poland since the late 5th and early 6th century AD, has come to this region from the East (before expanding further west and north-west), so this would rather speak against SE Poland as a potential initial center of the Slavic expansion.
Despite the above counter-arguments, there is, however, a small chance that M458 was born in SE Poland. We can, for example, imagine that once the local population has been included into the expanding Przeworsk culture, the two major sub-branches of M458 have been separated, with the larger CTS11962 "clan" having moved further east, while its much younger (and less numerous) brother lineage L260 having been left somewhere in SE Poland. Assuming that the CTS11962 clade contributed to the formation of the Zarubintsy culture and all Post-Zarubintsy Early Slavic (or Proto-Slavic) formations, this would explain its presence in nearly all modern Slavic cultures. Additionally, when some of those Early Slavs in Western Ukraine (Korchak-Prague) have started to expand west they met (and "assimilated") a local population representing the young L260 clade. This would explain not only the presence of CTS11962 (including L1029) in all Slavic populations, but also the characteristic distribution pattern of L260 (showing the highest frequency in some sub-populations of Western Slavs).
regarding the slovenes and based on the knowledge that they state they are from modern Poland/czech lands and that M458 ( slavic marker ) is no longer a "polish" marker, do you think that the slovenes might have always been there ( in slovenia ) but became slavic via language after 700AD.
I found no slovene migration unless the Avars where these slovenes OR where the slovenes the "east germanic" tribe and later became slavic via language?
focus on the possibility that it was rather the Przeworsk culture expanding south-east that managed to include those "Carpathian" M458 people.
We know that Przeworsk has also influenced some territories further east (in Western Ukraine just north of the Carpathian region) and this is quite commonly interpreted as invading the territory of the local Dacian tribe named Costoboci (commonly identified with the so-called Lipiţa culture located on the upper Dniester). Intriguingly, such a potential "clash" has been reported in ancient sources as a conflict between the Costoboci and the Vandalic tribe of Asdingi (which happened around 170-180 AD), hence some people consider this to be just another proof that Przeworsk was in fact a Germanic culture represented by Vandals (who were supposed to be reported earlier as Lugii because of their hypothetical initial association with the assimilated Celtic population of Southern and Central Poland).
Since it is quite obvious that M458 and especially CTS11962, including of course L1029, are all very strongly associated with the entire Slavic population, let's assume for the sake of this discussion that Przeworsk was not a Germanic but rather a Pra-Slavic culture while its relatively small South-Eastern part that could have shown a significant proportion of M458 became a center of the subsequent Slavic expansion. One problem with this scenario is that this relatively small region (encompassing SE Poland and some neighboring territories) has actually never become a significant and independent cultural center that would be responsible for spreading not only the Slavic culture but also the Slavic genes in all directions. Importantly, just like all remaining parts of the Przeworsk culture, this region has undergone a significant collapse in the late 4th and early 5t century, and this is a period when we would expect the Slavic population (and especially M458) to significantly increase in size rather than shrink down. Finally, it is well documented that the Korchak-Prague culture (evidently Early Slavic!) that has been occupying the SE Poland since the late 5th and early 6th century AD, has come to this region from the East (before expanding further west and north-west), so this would rather speak against SE Poland as a potential initial center of the Slavic expansion.
Despite the above counter-arguments, there is, however, a small chance that M458 was born in SE Poland. We can, for example, imagine that once the local population has been included into the expanding Przeworsk culture, the two major sub-branches of M458 have been separated, with the larger CTS11962 "clan" having moved further east, while its much younger (and less numerous) brother lineage L260 having been left somewhere in SE Poland. Assuming that the CTS11962 clade contributed to the formation of the Zarubintsy culture and all Post-Zarubintsy Early Slavic (or Proto-Slavic) formations, this would explain its presence in nearly all modern Slavic cultures. Additionally, when some of those Early Slavs in Western Ukraine (Korchak-Prague) have started to expand west they met (and "assimilated") a local population representing the young L260 clade. This would explain not only the presence of CTS11962 (including L1029) in all Slavic populations, but also the characteristic distribution pattern of L260 (showing the highest frequency in some sub-populations of Western Slavs).
zanipolo
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maybe scythian from when the goths settled north of the black sea for so many years
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Wow! This is huge news. Can you site a link or source?
I have been saying for quite some time that I1 looks like it should be pushed more towards Prussia or even Finland. The term Norse would apply probably even more so though because of the Northern orientation of this haplogroup.
It not always easy being a genius...
Actually I never said that Albanian women slept around. I was rather imagining that some Goths (both men and women) became assimilated to the population of the Eastern Roman Empire in the Balkans in the 4th and 5th centuries and their DNA pervaded the whole gene pool in the region.
What you are saying is that male Gothic lineages reached the Albanian gene pool because either:
a) Albanian women slept around (cheated on their Albanian husbands) with Gothic men
b) Gothic men raped Albanian women (unlikely on a big scale since the Goths were poor immigrants wishing to become Roman citizens, not mighty conquerors)
I think that neither can explain the 9% of Gothic lineages among the Albanians. The only way to know if that is true is to look at mtDNA lineages and try to identify the exact percentage of Gothic mtDNA among the Albanians. If there is less than 1%, then you may be right. But I expect it to be of a similar percentage as the Y-DNA. Unfortunately we don't know what Gothic mtDNA lineages were at present, and anyway we don't have a study on Albanian mtDNA that includes deep subclades.
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In find a bit insulting your "incest" vocabulary! (maybe it was not your purpose)
and do not confuse wide intermarriages basis (contrary to narrow, short endogamy) with populations crossings in them very diverse sources of "exogenes" -
but I think it is sometimes difficult to tell a self within differentiation (by time and/or by number) from an outside come differentiation (far foreign populations introgression) - continuity on place or discontinuity perhaps can be differentiated if some parts of the genome use to vary faster than others (I need some more knowledge about their methods on this point) -i it is the same problem we see about HT "variance",
MOESAN
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on what basis? 6% only of -Y1 in baltic lands...
surely they were denser previously but before I-Eans, and they were overflowed - they have been for a long time all over the baltic shores until Finnland and in Denmark
today they are more a germanic marker or finnic marker than whatever else and without any other proof I consider Y-I1 as a reasonably sure germanic marker in southern lands of Europe - maybe sometime I 'll know I'm wrong?
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you name neolithic settlements as illyrian,
I ask you, Illyrians spoke IE and you did not answer.
Simply I got bored of Albanian extra Nationalistic imagination,
TELL US NOW,
PULE/POLA WAS AN ILLYRIAN SETTLEMENT?
ILLYRIAN WAS OR NOT IE?
EVEN SCIENCE FICTION WRITERS WOULD ENVY YOUR IMAGINATION.
nordicwarrior
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I'm not at all convinced the I1 was brought southward by the Gothic tribal movements. I'm thinking it happened much later.
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Nope. Later.
ElHorsto
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Maciamo said:
I don't understand. According to Eupedia y HG table Albanian I1,I2b figures are not high. Every neighbour country has more I1 and I2b, even Greece and Bulgaria.
I tend to agree with nordicwarbler that it came later than Goths.
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Ken N stated in 2012 that I2b was Eastern balkans and went to anatolia
he stated recently that I1 was south baltic marker
he also stated that I2a was ukraine and moldovian ( its moldovia's highest marker )
So, maciano I1 comment seemed to have meant that it could not come before the "germanic" invasions of the balkans . The goths could have taken I2a with it as they settled in ukraine and moldovian areas for a long time before they began their invasion. and I2b was ancient bulgarian and romanian lands.
The albanian I markers could be dregs of goths who remained after their balkan kingdom declined. Its Albanian by default.
I2b was already in Italy in the early iron-age
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I's not that they are underrepresented. It's their size. Montenegrins are around 200 000 people. The rest of the people in Montenegro are Servs (around 40%), Albanians (around 8%) and Boshniacs, Croats the rest. So, that's why is a single person.
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So according to their population Montenegrins should have less than one person. Since its not practical to halve a person, they have given them a full person. So in this study they appear overrepresented.
That table is not that accurate about Albania. It's an average of Albanian and Kosovar y-dna, which are a bit different. Pericic found more I1 in Kosovars than in all other ex-Jugoslavs thou; and they're supposed to be the least germanic of Albanians because they descend from Pelasgian refuge-mountain areas. There is no published study about South/Middle Albania, where you would expect to find the most traces of the "germanic" tribes.
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the survey you mention is of 2004, new surveys came after and these %s ought to be changed, for Albanese as for french regions (and evidently mayby for others too) -
I red very contradictory things concerning Y-I2a2 ex I2B ex I1c as for Provence where it was supposed to be high and now is low - I saw old maps where at first it was centered around Provence and other where it was centered around Rouergue (south to Auvergne, just north to the central mediterranean coasts of Languedoc. So...
Well yes i can post other studies but anyway it's still reliable, just the terminology has changed.
For example in Pericic paper Kosovar Albanians (No Albanians from Albania) show 5.31% of I-M253 no I-M223 found.
Seems the later haplogroup haves a little hotspot between South Albania, North Greece and Macedonia so it makes sense.
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