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Thread: Genetic history of Italy

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    Post Genetic history of Italy



    I have started working on a new project: the Genetic History of Italy.

    The first section includes a summary of the various peoples who came to settle in Italy since the Palaeolithic and the Y-DNA haplogroup that they (probably) brought with them. This section isn't finished yet. I still have the whole migration period and Middle Ages to add.

    The second section is a table showing the Y-DNA frequencies for each region of Italy based on the 4000+ samples I collected from the studies published to date.

    I will also add haplogroup maps of Italy side by side to make comparisons easy.

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    wait are u saying J1, J2, and e1b1b came to italy in neloithic i dont thing there is any good evidence for that the fact the J1, j2, and eb1b1 and centered in greece and italy show it is from greco roman times and that greeks and italiens have extremly high amounts of mid eastern in austomnal DNA tests and that J1, J2, and E1b1b are popular in teh same areas of europe tehy probably came in the greco roman age

    when u said I2a1 is estimated as 20,000 years old and I2a1 and I2a1b quickley split that is more like what i was excepting because i had heard estimates for I2a1a m26 at only 8,000 years old that did not make sense to me because we have two 5,000 year old m26 samples in France and it seems i2a1 was already spread out in all of western Europe(except Germany, Britian, Ireland) before the Neolithic age then g2a invaded I2a1a about 10,000-6,000ybp so I2a1a and I2a1b may have split almost 20,000 years ago that means I2a1a may have been dominte in western Europe 15,000ybp same with I2a1b in eastern Europe

    I think the Y DNA for europe 10,000- 15,000ybp for France, Spain, and Italy mainly I2a1a with possibly a little I1a1, I1a3, I1a4, and I1b, and some I2a2. for central Europe maybe also britian mainly I1a1, I1a3, I1a4, and I1b, or posibly I2a2 was the main group and then also a little I2a1a, for all of eastern Europe mainly I2a1b, with some I1a1, I1a3, I1a4, and I1b, for Scandinavia just about only I1a2 and some I1a. I have heard about C7 and F 96 in Europe being from the first settlement over 50,000 years ago but what if F 96 is not just found in Europe and maybe it came in the Neolithic age i think that F that was negative for all of F;s descendants in LBK Germany 7,000ybp is evidence it came in Neolithic maybe C7 is if it is old enough and if it is just foudn in Europe maybe C7 and F 96 did exist but i doubt they where that popular


    and Y DNA subclades did not complete settle Europe till only 15,000ybp and since there is a good chance I* originated around Caucus and the Iraq just 30,000-40,000ybp maybe the I people had a last glacial refuge and then resettled Europe but if I originated in Europe then u can say they came to Europe as far back as 45,000-50,000ybp

    also modern Italien people in globe13 austomnal DNA if u take away the 20.5% west asian, 14.3% southwest asian they would probably have over 50% Mediterranean like Iberian do Italians i think are mainly descended from Neolithic Europeans like Otzie we are lucky Sardinia people exist because they literally are Neolithic western Europeans that is why they have 70% med they are probably what Italians where till the R1b S28 Italic speakers invasion which brought more north European and inter marriage with mid easterns and north Africans in greco roman age since the original European austomnal DNA group most tests call it north European was so unpopular in austomnal DNA we have of Neolithic farmers in Europe i think the G2a austomnal DNA med farmers did not peacefully spread farming they nearly killed off the Y DNA I and austomnal DNA north Euro hunter gathers and Itlaiens, Iberian, and sardines are a direct result of that

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    maybe u can also mention austomnal DNA and that Italy has alot of mid eastern blood that most likely came in greco roman times and that Italiens are mainly decended of Neloithic people it seems u skipped that stuff. Hopfully u can do this for more countries and region in Europe

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    Wouldn't you say people that Celtic tribes of Bronze and Iron Age of Europe were very similar by genetic to Italic "indoeuropean" tribes, for example to LATINS, considering R1b?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Cooper View Post
    Wouldn't you say people that Celtic tribes of Bronze and Iron Age of Europe were very similar by genetic to Italic "indoeuropean" tribes, for example to LATINS, considering R1b?
    the halleste celts ( the main celts romans and greeks knew) came from the urnfield culture so did the villnovan culture which where the first italic speakers that migrated to italy from switzerland 3,200ybp. The Italics and halleste Celts had r1b s28 and a similar langauge but geneticalley they where not very related the original italic speakers where genetically identical to Celtic people when they migrated to italy the quickley inter married so even though itaics had a similar language and same y dna as celts overall they where not that related

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Cooper View Post
    Wouldn't you say people that Celtic tribes of Bronze and Iron Age of Europe were very similar by genetic to Italic "indoeuropean" tribes, for example to LATINS, considering R1b?
    Yes, of course. The Italics and the Celts were close cousins. Both descended from the Unetice and Tumulus cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yes, of course. The Italics and the Celts were close cousins. Both descended from the Unetice and Tumulus cultures.
    yes by Language and Y DNA R1b S28 Italiens and Celts are close cousins but i think u know maciamo that Italians have almost no light hair and eyes while Celts where know for those features by Romans. since Italians are more dark haired and eyed and white too olive skinned while Celts are light haired and eyed and very light skinned there is no way they are close genetic relatives. The orignal Italic speakers lived in later celtic terriotory they would have been geneticalley identical to swiss people or just people that live in the area they came from orignalley just when they migrated to Italy they inter married with the locales extremely quickly they kept y dna r1b s28 and the italic language but most of their blood came from the native farmers. So then when Italy became connected with greece and the civilized world they inter married like crazy with mid eastern people but id ont know about Greeks maybe that is why Y DNA j1, J2, and E1b1b v13 are so popular in greece and Italy and surrounding areas but not the rest of Europe also Italiens in globe13 austomnal DNA test have over 20% west asian and over 15% southwest asian most europeans have less than 6% west Asian and less than 1% southwest Asian only Italians, Greeks and surrounding countires have higher this means Italians have a significant amount of mid eastern heritage which came in greco Roman age. in austomnal DNA the north European part of Italiens came from the hunter gathers who had Y DNA I2a1a that where conquered by G2a (probably not J1, J2 and E1b1b farmers). The Mediterranean in Italians which is their biggest part in the globe13 test comes from y DNA G2a farmers like Otzie since Italians have mainly Mediterranean they probably have mainly Neolithic ancestry. The west Asian came in greco roman age some of the southwest Asian came in Neolithic and some in greco roman age.

    i dont think u should put on the genetic history of Italy that Italians are close relatives to Celts that is not true only their language and direct male linage is but most of their blood is unrelated

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have started working on a new project: the Genetic History of Italy.

    The first section includes a summary of the various peoples who came to settle in Italy since the Palaeolithic and the Y-DNA haplogroup that they (probably) brought with them. This section isn't finished yet. I still have the whole migration period and Middle Ages to add.

    The second section is a table showing the Y-DNA frequencies for each region of Italy based on the 4000+ samples I collected from the studies published to date.

    I will also add haplogroup maps of Italy side by side to make comparisons easy.
    Why is there so little Trentino/altoadage/south tyrol numbers in your link, when there have been 4 major tests that I recall , 2006, 2007, 2008 and an earlier one?

    South Tyrol three microisolates (MICROS) Genetic study, Pattaro et al. 2007 (1175 participants)
    South Tyrol Isolates Value for Genetic Dissection of Complex Diseases, Marroni, Pichler et al. 2006 (403 males)
    South Tyrol isolates mtDNA Y-DNA - Ladin communities, Thomas et al. 2007 (263 men
    South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Y-DNA (UEP), mtDNA, and 8 Alu Polymorphisms, Pichler, Mueller, Stefanov et al. 2006 (277 samples)

    Below is the break-up of the Pichler test
    R1b... n=91 = 47%
    G+I... n = 60 = 31%
    E3b... n = 14 = 7%
    R1a*...n = 10 = 5%
    L ....n = 4 = 2%
    T ...n = 8 = 4%
    E3a ...n = 2 = 1%
    R1a1...n = 4 = 2%

    the Thomas test , below
    R1b ...n = 131 = 50%
    G+I ...n = 54 = 20%
    J ...n = 35 = 13%
    L ...n = 9 = 3%
    E ...n = 18 = 7%
    R1a....n = 13 = 5%
    T ...n = 6 = 2%

    Surely, regardless of language they are still Italian even if they speak Ladin or Austrian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    yes by Language and Y DNA R1b S28 Italiens and Celts are close cousins but i think u know maciamo that Italians have almost no light hair and eyes while Celts where know for those features by Romans. since Italians are more dark haired and eyed and white too olive skinned while Celts are light haired and eyed and very light skinned there is no way they are close genetic relatives. The orignal Italic speakers lived in later celtic terriotory they would have been geneticalley identical to swiss people or just people that live in the area they came from orignalley just when they migrated to Italy they inter married with the locales extremely quickly they kept y dna r1b s28 and the italic language but most of their blood came from the native farmers. So then when Italy became connected with greece and the civilized world they inter married like crazy with mid eastern people but id ont know about Greeks maybe that is why Y DNA j1, J2, and E1b1b v13 are so popular in greece and Italy and surrounding areas but not the rest of Europe also Italiens in globe13 austomnal DNA test have over 20% west asian and over 15% southwest asian most europeans have less than 6% west Asian and less than 1% southwest Asian only Italians, Greeks and surrounding countires have higher this means Italians have a significant amount of mid eastern heritage which came in greco Roman age. in austomnal DNA the north European part of Italiens came from the hunter gathers who had Y DNA I2a1a that where conquered by G2a (probably not J1, J2 and E1b1b farmers). The Mediterranean in Italians which is their biggest part in the globe13 test comes from y DNA G2a farmers like Otzie since Italians have mainly Mediterranean they probably have mainly Neolithic ancestry. The west Asian came in greco roman age some of the southwest Asian came in Neolithic and some in greco roman age.

    i dont think u should put on the genetic history of Italy that Italians are close relatives to Celts that is not true only their language and direct male linage is but most of their blood is unrelated
    nonsense

    The Italians differ from each other to major extremes genetics, eye colour, hair colour etc like the french people differ with each other ...see the other papers on the other link.
    The celtic homeland is the alps, the Lepontic language was the birth place of celtic language......who do you think lived there?


    your nonsense about eye colour, hair colour, skin colour is very stupid.
    explain why the highest percentage of ancient blue eyed people are in the alps?
    explain why the highest percentage of ancient green eyed people are in hungaria?
    explain why the highest percentage of red haired people are from udmurt?

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    look at italians such as riccardo montolivo, emmanuele giaccherini, claudio marchisio, daniele de rossi, francesco totti, etc. some 50-62% of italian males on a national level are R1b (a very atlantic/west european genetic marker commonly assoiated with insular celtic(british isles)/gallic/germanic influence. some 40-50% of italian women are H alone, a very european mtdna marker, without couting about 12% U as well (not much V at all.) most of the italian r1b is r-S28 which peaks in north-central italy, switzerland and eastern france. what sets them apart though is the higher neolithic, agriculturally introduced lineages. southern italy has about 20-25%some areas as high as or higher than 30% j2 from the fertile crescent (mesopotamia), there is 15-20% e3b (dominates north africa ), most of it being e-v13 from greek colonizations of magna grecia. there's also about 15% haplogroup G in southern italy, a continental high along with northern sardinia. R1b drops to 25-30% in the south.

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    the northern half of italy is celtic influence of the gallic stock and the southern half is greco-anatolian (greco-turkish or greco-middle eastern).

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    nonsense

    The Italians differ from each other to major extremes genetics, eye colour, hair colour etc like the french people differ with each other ...see the other papers on the other link.
    The celtic homeland is the alps, the Lepontic language was the birth place of celtic language......who do you think lived there?


    your nonsense about eye colour, hair colour, skin colour is very stupid.
    explain why the highest percentage of ancient blue eyed people are in the alps?
    explain why the highest percentage of ancient green eyed people are in hungaria?
    explain why the highest percentage of red haired people are from udmurt?
    the romans said themselves the gauls where faired haired and very pale skinned while romans and italiens where dark haired and olive skinned even romans saw the differnce and basicalley if u go by real percentages italy has much lower amounts of light hair and eyes than most of europe that is a fact. The celts where more of a light haired people that is also a fact so to me it makes sense that Italians and Celts cant be very close relatives also their only connection is y dna and language i thought everyone would agree with me and move on to more important issues about genetics of italy on that simple fact there is no arguing about it. most blue eyes are found in Scandinavia, baltic region, and northwestern russia i know where u are getting that info from it is because some experts belive the genes for blue eyes orignated in the ancestral populaton of people ine the alps but many dis agree that does not mean people in the alps have the most blue eyes and that does not help ur argument about connecting Celts with Italians because people in the alps are probably more descended from gauls than anyone


    i don't see how my hair color eye color stuff is nonsense if someone has black skin and another has white skin i doubt their related it is a good way to figure that stuff out and with Celts and Italians it is obvious and ancient Romans would agree with me Maciamo u got to back me up on this i mean this is common sense

    even in austomnal DNA Italians have higher amounts of west asian, southwest asian, and Mediterranean than central Europeans and defintley than ancient gauls it is common sense celts are not close relatives to italiens only by y dna and language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    the northern half of italy is celtic influence of the gallic stock and the southern half is greco-anatolian (greco-turkish or greco-middle eastern).
    i think it is more complicated all of Italians period are very related and from the same stock just over time different regions have inter married with diff people. The main ancestors of Italians period i think are Neolithic Italians. Northern Italy probably has a little more swiss or alps blood than the rest of italy because the first italic speakers came from around the alps and migrated to italy about 3,200ybp but they put more genetic input into northern italy Then Gauls that setlled some parts of northern italy came from either modern france or around the alps but i doubt the celts make a significant amount of ancestry for northern Italians for southern italy it is a fact they have more mid eastern blood Sicilians have the most over all central italiens are probably in between.

    overall Italians are probably mainly from Neolithic Italians sardine are probably who Italians where 8,000ybp because sardines have much much less mid eastern blood than the rest of italy they are the closest relatives in DNA we have of Otzie a farmer from alps Italy from 5,300ybp and the austomnal DNA percentages of sardines are teh closest to what we have of Neolithic Europeans even though i guess people kind off think of sardines as sperate from Italians they are actulley more Italian than people in italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    look at italians such as riccardo montolivo, emmanuele giaccherini, claudio marchisio, daniele de rossi, francesco totti, etc. some 50-62% of italian males on a national level are R1b (a very atlantic/west european genetic marker commonly assoiated with insular celtic(british isles)/gallic/germanic influence. some 40-50% of italian women are H alone, a very european mtdna marker, without couting about 12% U as well (not much V at all.) most of the italian r1b is r-S28 which peaks in north-central italy, switzerland and eastern france. what sets them apart though is the higher neolithic, agriculturally introduced lineages. southern italy has about 20-25%some areas as high as or higher than 30% j2 from the fertile crescent (mesopotamia), there is 15-20% e3b (dominates north africa ), most of it being e-v13 from greek colonizations of magna grecia. there's also about 15% haplogroup G in southern italy, a continental high along with northern sardinia. R1b drops to 25-30% in the south.
    u need to remember y dna like r1b s28 is just a direct linage u ca be 99,.999999999999% black but have y dna r1b 28 and mtdna H Y DNA R1b in western europe is from recent proto germanic italo celtic invasion just 5,000ybp so what it italiens have alot of r1b it is because they speak a indo european language also y dna j1, and j2 did not come in teh neloithic i explinaed it in this thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-African-Y-DNA J1, J2, and most E1b1b V13 was spread in greco roman age that is why they are distributed the same way in europe and are centered in Greece and Italy. overall Italiens are probably mainly descended from a sardine like Neolithic people the reason why i say sardine like is they literally are a relic of Neolithic Italy they have been genticalley isolated for over 5,000 years their austomnal DNA is nearly identical to what we have of Neolithic Europeans modern Italians have inter married in the last 5,000 years mainly with mid eastern people so sardines don't have that mid eastern side also Italians have inter married with central Europeans like Celts and the first Italic speakers which sardines have not well not in a significant way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    the romans said themselves the gauls where faired haired and very pale skinned while romans and italiens where dark haired and olive skinned even romans saw the differnce and basicalley if u go by real percentages italy has much lower amounts of light hair and eyes than most of europe that is a fact. The celts where more of a light haired people that is also a fact so to me it makes sense that Italians and Celts cant be very close relatives also their only connection is y dna and language i thought everyone would agree with me and move on to more important issues about genetics of italy on that simple fact there is no arguing about it. most blue eyes are found in Scandinavia, baltic region, and northwestern russia i know where u are getting that info from it is because some experts belive the genes for blue eyes orignated in the ancestral populaton of people ine the alps but many dis agree that does not mean people in the alps have the most blue eyes and that does not help ur argument about connecting Celts with Italians because people in the alps are probably more descended from gauls than anyone


    i don't see how my hair color eye color stuff is nonsense if someone has black skin and another has white skin i doubt their related it is a good way to figure that stuff out and with Celts and Italians it is obvious and ancient Romans would agree with me Maciamo u got to back me up on this i mean this is common sense

    even in austomnal DNA Italians have higher amounts of west asian, southwest asian, and Mediterranean than central Europeans and defintley than ancient gauls it is common sense celts are not close relatives to italiens only by y dna and language.
    nonsense

    skin colour comes by natural change over time to allow the body the acceptance of vitamin D, the further you are away fro the equator the lighter the skin. Another change is protection from the sun , so Eskimos have darker skin as the ultra violet rays burns the skin due to reflection from water or ice.....the body adapts to protect itself.

    west-asian is in all of europe except in the baltic states. celts have west-asian as well. british have west-asian.

    print what autosomal you have? I want to see it.


    Blue eyes - It does not mean that alpine people have the most blues , but genetics state they have the ancient original blue eyes.

    I must say you do not know what an Italian is...........you probably also think all french are the same, all germans are the same.etc...........IF you know genetics, you will know there is no nationality in genetics, you cannot distinguish what is what race based on national borders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    u need to remember y dna like r1b s28 is just a direct linage u ca be 99,.999999999999% black but have y dna r1b 28 and mtdna H Y DNA R1b in western europe is from recent proto germanic italo celtic invasion just 5,000ybp so what it italiens have alot of r1b it is because they speak a indo european language also y dna j1, and j2 did not come in teh neloithic i explinaed it in this thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-African-Y-DNA J1, J2, and most E1b1b V13 was spread in greco roman age that is why they are distributed the same way in europe and are centered in Greece and Italy. overall Italiens are probably mainly descended from a sardine like Neolithic people the reason why i say sardine like is they literally are a relic of Neolithic Italy they have been genticalley isolated for over 5,000 years their austomnal DNA is nearly identical to what we have of Neolithic Europeans modern Italians have inter married in the last 5,000 years mainly with mid eastern people so sardines don't have that mid eastern side also Italians have inter married with central Europeans like Celts and the first Italic speakers which sardines have not well not in a significant way.
    There was no germanics in southern germany or alps or italy until after the fall of the Roman empire ( unless they where slaves of the Romans ), so logically, R1b is alpine and Mediterranean in mixture once it entered Europe and settled down.
    Your 50-70 % of R1b would easily show a Mediterranean, west-asian, near-east autosomal,............you might be greek from Marseilles, France, when the Greeks founded the city

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    okay zanipoli we dont know why people have differnt skin colors that thing with vitmin D is the most belivble theory we have so far also i was talking about modern people in the area and yes they do have alot of german blood skin color, hair color, and eye color are very important if people have differnt colors i doubt they are related and i dont think ll italiens are teh same i just look at real records done on 1,000,000's of italiens when it comes to hair color and eye color and i look at what ancient romans said about themselves and i also go off what modern people say it is a fact italiens are more dark haired and eyed than almost all europeans including Celts stop arguing on that simply fact

    u are coming to quick conclusions R1b is not alphine R1b is very complicated it exists in many differnt types of people when u are talking about R1b in western europe like italy it comes from proto Germanic Italo Celtic speakers who came to western europe 5,000ybp they would have had mainly north european austomnal DNA they also spread red hair in western europe they where not Mediterranean also people in teh area today of teh indo european homeland have over 65% north european in globe13 austomnal DNA i have no idea where u are getting r1b is alphine or Mediterranean it did not arrive in those areas till at the earliest 4,500-4,000ybp


    yes most europeans have a little west Asian but Italians and greeks have much much much more italens and greeks have 20-24% west asian most of Europe has 3-6%, Italians and Greeks have 15-18% southwest asian the rest of europe uselley has 1 - 5% the areas around greece and italy like Bulgaria and yugoslavia also have high amounts of southwest asian and west asian eastern Europeans typically have different austomnal dna than western Europeans for example western european have 30-45% med people in eastern europe have 20-25% on average and much more north Europeans eastern Europeans also uselly above 4% southwest asian most western Europeans have less than 1.5%

    here is where i get y austomnal dna info https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...tUE9kaUE#gid=2

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    can we stop arguing about simple stuff that are just facts like Italians have darker pigmentation than most europeans including celts, Italians and celts are close relatives in y dna and language but not in blood, iTaliens, greeks, and people around them have much much higher amounts of west asian and southwest asian in austomnal dna, R1b in western europe came 5,000ybp with the proto Germanic italo celtic speakers.

    can u guys please stop arguing about this stuff they are simple facts lets get down into the important stuff like are Italians mainly descend from Neolithic Italians or latter people that came in the bronze age i think defintley neloithic. Is there any signs of a ice age refuge early Europeans took in italy 20,000ybp. Do Italians have alot of Mesolithic and Paleolithic european blood or is most from people who came in the Neolithic, are sardine people the truest Italians because they have not significantly inter married with anyone in the last 8,000 years at least, who are Italians closest relatives in Europe, what Y DNA did Neolithic, Mesolithic, and Paleolithic Italians have

    these are just examples of important things we can debate on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    okay zanipoli we dont know why people have differnt skin colors that thing with vitmin D is the most belivble theory we have so far also i was talking about modern people in the area and yes they do have alot of german blood skin color, hair color, and eye color are very important if people have differnt colors i doubt they are related and i dont think ll italiens are teh same i just look at real records done on 1,000,000's of italiens when it comes to hair color and eye color and i look at what ancient romans said about themselves and i also go off what modern people say it is a fact italiens are more dark haired and eyed than almost all europeans including Celts stop arguing on that simply fact

    u are coming to quick conclusions R1b is not alphine R1b is very complicated it exists in many differnt types of people when u are talking about R1b in western europe like italy it comes from proto Germanic Italo Celtic speakers who came to western europe 5,000ybp they would have had mainly north european austomnal DNA they also spread red hair in western europe they where not Mediterranean also people in teh area today of teh indo european homeland have over 65% north european in globe13 austomnal DNA i have no idea where u are getting r1b is alphine or Mediterranean it did not arrive in those areas till at the earliest 4,500-4,000ybp


    yes most europeans have a little west Asian but Italians and greeks have much much much more italens and greeks have 20-24% west asian most of Europe has 3-6%, Italians and Greeks have 15-18% southwest asian the rest of europe uselley has 1 - 5% the areas around greece and italy like Bulgaria and yugoslavia also have high amounts of southwest asian and west asian eastern Europeans typically have different austomnal dna than western Europeans for example western european have 30-45% med people in eastern europe have 20-25% on average and much more north Europeans eastern Europeans also uselly above 4% southwest asian most western Europeans have less than 1.5%

    here is where i get y austomnal dna info https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...tUE9kaUE#gid=2
    -skin colour has nothing to do with genetics.

    - where do you see Roman hair colour? Is it today, did they visit a beauty salon?. The ancient Romans bought in 1M slaves to Rome, which hair colour was painted on the walls?

    - R1b has zero to do with ancient germanic people

    - Alpine people have zero to do with ancient germanic people

    - your term proto-germanic is wrong for the alps....its proto-celtic for the alps

    - Unless you are neanderthal then all european people came from africa, middleast or asia . thats a fact..........genetic history does not begin at the fall of the Roman empire can we be clear on this.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    -skin colour has nothing to do with genetics.

    skin color is in your dna why do u think europeans are white please stop with these non sense arguments
    - where do you see Roman hair colour? Is it today, did they visit a beauty salon?. The ancient Romans bought in 1M slaves to Rome, which hair colour was painted on the walls?[/QUOTE]

    romans consitintlye said that gauls where blonde haired while romans where dark haired it is a fact romans where italiens they freakin lived in italy word italiens comes from ancient italic tribes including romans we know what they looked like yes they brought slaves but looking at modern italien dna they have italien and mid eastern blood not slaves blood

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    - R1b has zero to do with ancient germanic people
    the Germanic languages are indo Europeans the Germanic signature is R1b s21 maciamo pleas back me up i am sick of these dumb arguments people trust what u say more. the proto Italo Celtic germanic speakers had R1b l11 R1b s21 maps out germanic language r1b has a ton to do with germans

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    - Alpine people have zero to do with ancient germanic people
    Germanic r1b s21 is 30-40% in austria people who live in teh alps so ur wrong the two language families in the al;ps are germanic and italien so ur wrong again

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    - your term proto-germanic is wrong for the alps....its proto-celtic for the alps
    i dont remeber saying proto germanic from the alps and if i did i was wrong they came from germany then spread to denmark 4,000ybp then back to germany 2,500-2,000ybp

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    - Unless you are neanderthal then all european people came from africa, middleast or asia . thats a fact..........genetic history does not begin at the fall of the Roman empire can we be clear on this.
    i ever said genetic history began after the fall of Rome Europeans ancestors are from multiple migrations out of the mid east from 50,000-35,000ybp. can we please stop with these dumb arguments i get so sick of teh modern politcally corect mind which wants nothing to do with skin color the color of someones skin is one of teh best ways to define their race they have alot to do with genetics the best way to define a european is someone with Caucasian facial features and body build and white skin that is teh best way white people is a great name for Europeans it is not offensive and it is true italiens are darker haired and eyed than almost all Europeans that is a fact so for that reason they are not close relatives to celts and austomnal dna which tells ur full ancestry again shows Italians are not close relatives to celts can we get on to more important arguments that dont have answers like the ones i suggested

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    skin colour
    Human skin color ranges in variety from the darkest brown to the lightest pinkish-white hues. Human skin pigmentation is the result of natural selection. Skin pigmentation in humans evolved to primarily regulate the amount of ultraviolet radiation penetrating the skin, controlling its biochemical effects.[1]



    romans consitintlye said that gauls where blonde haired while romans where dark haired it is a fact romans where italiens they freakin lived in italy word italiens comes from ancient italic tribes including romans we know what they looked like yes they brought slaves but looking at modern italien dna they have italien and mid eastern blood not slaves blood
    link where it states this rubbish

    the Germanic languages are indo Europeans the Germanic signature is R1b s21 maciamo pleas back me up i am sick of these dumb arguments people trust what u say more. the proto Italo Celtic germanic speakers had R1b l11 R1b s21 maps out germanic language r1b has a ton to do with germans



    Germanic r1b s21 is 30-40% in austria people who live in teh alps so ur wrong the two language families in the al;ps are germanic and italien so ur wrong again
    The germanic people formed in modern Denmark and northern germany , there was no germans in the south or in the alps. Austria was ONLY formed in 1000AD by bavarians, there where no austrians prior to this.

    The alps, had, ligures, vindelici, rhaetian, helvetian, venetic, illyrian, thracian etc people, the gauls came in from the west into the alps around the late bronze-age to early iron-age

    i ever said genetic history began after the fall of Rome Europeans ancestors are from multiple migrations out of the mid east from 50,000-35,000ybp. can we please stop with these dumb arguments i get so sick of teh modern politcally corect mind which wants nothing to do with skin color the color of someones skin is one of teh best ways to define their race they have alot to do with genetics the best way to define a european is someone with Caucasian facial features and body build and white skin that is teh best way white people is a great name for Europeans it is not offensive and it is true italiens are darker haired and eyed than almost all Europeans that is a fact so for that reason they are not close relatives to celts and austomnal dna which tells ur full ancestry again shows Italians are not close relatives to celts can we get on to more important arguments that dont have answers like the ones i suggested
    Show me where it says ancient romans are italians,?
    the current italian government says there was no italians in Italy before 1870 thats in the constitution,
    histories never call Romans , Italians ....romans are romans, etruscans are etruscans, etc
    franks are germanic people that invaded gual and became french ...........but maybe the french are proto-germanic by your reckoning....I do not know how you decipher races. you clearly are tyring to merge ancient people into modern nationalities..........clearly a grave error

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    [QUOTE=zanipolo;411484]skin colour
    Human skin color ranges in variety from the darkest brown to the lightest pinkish-white hues. Human skin pigmentation is the result of natural selection. Skin pigmentation in humans evolved to primarily regulate the amount of ultraviolet radiation penetrating the skin, controlling its biochemical effects.[1]




    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    link where it states this rubbish
    Diodorus Siculus writes that in appearance the "Gauls are tall of body, with rippling muscles, and white of skin, and their hair is blond
    http://www.leyline.org/cra/1999belta...and_gauls.html
    here some paintgs done of romans by romans and they defintley are dark haired and eyed just like modern italiens


    i have read many other physical descriptions of ancient people the romans said teh celts where fair haired and very pale skinned the germans where also fair ahired and pale skinned teh iberians where dark haired and white to olive skinned, the greeks where dark haired and white to olive skinned the romans where dfark haired and white to olive skinned the thracens and daciens whre red haired and blue eyed the sythiens where red haired or blonde haired and blue eyed the egyptiens where dark haired and brown skinned and syrians where dark haired and brown skinned

    i cant find all of the links but i have read them i saw one roman writer who said we romans are perfect because we are not extreme white like Germans or brown like Egyptians when compared to people in north africa and mid east romans said they where pale skinned when compared to Celts, Germans, sythiens, Thracens, and dacens Romans said they where tan u can not argue about this simple fact i am sick of it the Romans where dark haired and eyed they where Italian the identity Italian came from italic tribes like Romans just stop arguing about this and pigmentation has alot to do with ancestry and genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The germanic people formed in modern Denmark and northern germany , there was no germans in the south or in the alps. Austria was ONLY formed in 1000AD by bavarians, there where no austrians prior to this.
    Germanic language does not equal race the stertypical blonde haired blue eyed Germans are actulley talking about Scandinavians who are descended from hunter gathers who have lived there for over 10,000 years way way way before the Germanic language the German language would have begun in Germany about 4,000-5,000ybp they had Y DNA r1b s21 with a little I2a2 from the natives they conquered they spread to south scandnavia by conquering the native hunter gathers and farmers who had Y DNA I1a2 and they formed the nordic bronze age ask maciamo he would agree with me and hen about 3,000-2,000ybp it seems that any germanic tribes from denmark spread back into germany. yes it is true that austrians where not formed till 100ad but 30-40% of austrians still have germanic r1b s21 so they do have germanic blood

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The alps, had, ligures, vindelici, rhaetian, helvetian, venetic, illyrian, thracian etc people, the gauls came in from the west into the alps around the late bronze-age to early iron-age
    yes the alsp did have those people the liguraes spoke a italic language with some celtic influnce teh italic language began around the alps they would have orignalley been genticalley identical to celts and ligures who lived in the alps, the vindelici spoke either a Celtic or GERMANIC langauge this was before the Roman empire, The rhaetian litle is known about them livy a ancient roman writer said they came from estrucans who where non indo Europeans from the mid east who migrated to Italy about 4,000-3,000ybp. the helvetian where Celts, the Ventic are belived to have spoken either a Italic language or something very related, illyrians lived in modern day yugoslavia they had some borders that reached near the eastern alsp but they should not count as alsp people they spoke a extinct indo european language they had mainly paloithic european Y DNA I2a1b, the Thracens did not live in teh alsp they lived in modern day bulgaria they spoke a extinct indo european language also the dacens their close relatives who lived in bulgaira spoke a similar language some think thracen and dacen are most related to greek the thracens and dacens where known for red hair even greek writing going back 2,900ybp describe them as redheads but what does not make sense is red hair almost does not exist in modern day bulgaira.

    celtic culture began around the alps that is a fact the unetice culture is where celts orignalley come from



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Show me where it says ancient romans are italians,?
    the current italian government says there was no italians in Italy before 1870 thats in the constitution,
    histories never call Romans , Italians ....romans are romans, etruscans are etruscans, etc
    franks are germanic people that invaded gual and became french ...........but maybe the french are proto-germanic by your reckoning....I do not know how you decipher races. you clearly are tyring to merge ancient people into modern nationalities..........clearly a grave error
    i dont need to show u rome as a city started in central itlay just 2,700ybp the reason i know romans where italien is because they said so them selves modern italiens did not make up the name italien it came from teh first italic speakers in the alps 3,200ybp the romans spoke a italic language which is latin they called themsleves italiens that is a simple fact plus they lived just 2,000ybp there has been no real gentic change at all in italy sinec then sure germans migrated there just like they did every where in europe but there is very little german r1b s21 and I1a1, I1a3, I1a4, and I1b in italy Romans where italien i cant belive ur arguning about this the wikpedia page even says romans where italiens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians

    that is because it is a constitution uralic speaking people in finalnd have been there for 7,000-8,000 years finalnd did not become a offical country till the 1800;s but the finnish langauge and its ancestor langauge has been in finalnd for about 8,000 years and the finnish ancestry has been in scandnvai for over 10,000 years the estrucans even though they lived in italy where not italien they because they spoke a italic language today the whole penisula is called italy because now everyone speaks a italic langauge the goths and saxons thought of themselves as first saxons or goths and second as germans the italien ethnicity technically is based on the Italian language but most of Italians ancestry has been in Italy for over 7,000 years

    modern day french are mainly decended from gauls but they also have a signifcant amount of mid eastern blood which came in greco roman age the french ethnicty is based on language so yes the Germanic franks migrated to France and then spoke the french language and became french even though there is very little Germanic blood in modern french germanc conquered most of post roman Europe but they where mainly just the leaders and did not inter marry alot

    i think most DNA genetic experts try to figur out what ancient people formed modern people and it is not a grave error ait is easily figured out through dna modern italiens come from romans ask maciamo he is a expert on gentics and migrations of ancient and pre histroic people in europe and he will tell u that i can relate modern nationalities to ancient ones it is not black and white most modern people are a mix of many ancient people and the Italian nationality based on language began 3,200ybp and ancient Romans where part of that nationalty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    the romans said themselves the gauls where faired haired and very pale skinned while romans and italiens where dark haired and olive skinned even romans saw the differnce and basicalley if u go by real percentages italy has much lower amounts of light hair and eyes than most of europe that is a fact.
    They told that in times when Romans themselfs were not exactly the original Romans/Latins before they started to expand their rule over Etruscans, Ligures (both non-indoeuropean by origin) Sabinians and others on Italian peninsula, isn't that true?

    Not to mention that term "Roman", even 200, 250 years before the Empire was a term for the individual who had roman citizenship, it was not ethnical term anymore like for CELTS, Celts in that period (before romanization) were more or less always that... CELTS. So I think we should pay attention on that term ROMAN when we speak about their genetic, original genetic of Latins before Rome itself, and durin reign of republic and not to mention Empire...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    The celts where more of a light haired people that is also a fact so to me it makes sense that Italians and Celts cant be very close relatives also their only connection is y dna and language i thought everyone would agree with me and move on to more important issues about genetics of italy on that simple fact there is no arguing about it. most blue eyes are found in Scandinavia, baltic region, and northwestern russia i know where u are getting that info from it is because some experts belive the genes for blue eyes orignated in the ancestral populaton of people ine the alps but many dis agree that does not mean people in the alps have the most blue eyes and that does not help ur argument about connecting Celts with Italians because people in the alps are probably more descended from gauls than anyone
    Celts were/are light hair people, but they are not exactly blondish like germanic tribes (at least original "germanics")... Celts in majority were and are brown (light brown or dark brown) & "red" haired people.

    Also we are speaking here about genetic are we not? So even the TERM "GERMANIC" is a paradox, because if you look on Germanic from linguistic point of view, you will get indoeuropean language, but if you look at the genetic of scandinavian germans (and northern germans from Germany) you will get pre-indoeuropean (paleolithic) europeans.

    Same thing is with majority of today Croatians, Bosnians and Serbians... Genetic is (pre-dominantely) pre-indoeuropean (Paleolithic), but by linguistic and ethnical origin this three countries consider themselfs slavic = Indoeuropean.

    So I think we should make in some cases STRONG differences between linguistic, and even ethnic origin and genetic.

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    [QUOTE=Fire Haired;411486]
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    skin colour
    Human skin color ranges in variety from the darkest brown to the lightest pinkish-white hues. Human skin pigmentation is the result of natural selection. Skin pigmentation in humans evolved to primarily regulate the amount of ultraviolet radiation penetrating the skin, controlling its biochemical effects.[1]






    Diodorus Siculus writes that in appearance the "Gauls are tall of body, with rippling muscles, and white of skin, and their hair is blond
    http://www.leyline.org/cra/1999belta...and_gauls.html
    here some paintgs done of romans by romans and they defintley are dark haired and eyed just like modern italiens


    i have read many other physical descriptions of ancient people the romans said teh celts where fair haired and very pale skinned the germans where also fair ahired and pale skinned teh iberians where dark haired and white to olive skinned, the greeks where dark haired and white to olive skinned the romans where dfark haired and white to olive skinned the thracens and daciens whre red haired and blue eyed the sythiens where red haired or blonde haired and blue eyed the egyptiens where dark haired and brown skinned and syrians where dark haired and brown skinned

    i cant find all of the links but i have read them i saw one roman writer who said we romans are perfect because we are not extreme white like Germans or brown like Egyptians when compared to people in north africa and mid east romans said they where pale skinned when compared to Celts, Germans, sythiens, Thracens, and dacens Romans said they where tan u can not argue about this simple fact i am sick of it the Romans where dark haired and eyed they where Italian the identity Italian came from italic tribes like Romans just stop arguing about this and pigmentation has alot to do with ancestry and genetics


    Germanic language does not equal race the stertypical blonde haired blue eyed Germans are actulley talking about Scandinavians who are descended from hunter gathers who have lived there for over 10,000 years way way way before the Germanic language the German language would have begun in Germany about 4,000-5,000ybp they had Y DNA r1b s21 with a little I2a2 from the natives they conquered they spread to south scandnavia by conquering the native hunter gathers and farmers who had Y DNA I1a2 and they formed the nordic bronze age ask maciamo he would agree with me and hen about 3,000-2,000ybp it seems that any germanic tribes from denmark spread back into germany. yes it is true that austrians where not formed till 100ad but 30-40% of austrians still have germanic r1b s21 so they do have germanic blood


    yes the alsp did have those people the liguraes spoke a italic language with some celtic influnce teh italic language began around the alps they would have orignalley been genticalley identical to celts and ligures who lived in the alps, the vindelici spoke either a Celtic or GERMANIC langauge this was before the Roman empire, The rhaetian litle is known about them livy a ancient roman writer said they came from estrucans who where non indo Europeans from the mid east who migrated to Italy about 4,000-3,000ybp. the helvetian where Celts, the Ventic are belived to have spoken either a Italic language or something very related, illyrians lived in modern day yugoslavia they had some borders that reached near the eastern alsp but they should not count as alsp people they spoke a extinct indo european language they had mainly paloithic european Y DNA I2a1b, the Thracens did not live in teh alsp they lived in modern day bulgaria they spoke a extinct indo european language also the dacens their close relatives who lived in bulgaira spoke a similar language some think thracen and dacen are most related to greek the thracens and dacens where known for red hair even greek writing going back 2,900ybp describe them as redheads but what does not make sense is red hair almost does not exist in modern day bulgaira.

    celtic culture began around the alps that is a fact the unetice culture is where celts orignalley come from





    i dont need to show u rome as a city started in central itlay just 2,700ybp the reason i know romans where italien is because they said so them selves modern italiens did not make up the name italien it came from teh first italic speakers in the alps 3,200ybp the romans spoke a italic language which is latin they called themsleves italiens that is a simple fact plus they lived just 2,000ybp there has been no real gentic change at all in italy sinec then sure germans migrated there just like they did every where in europe but there is very little german r1b s21 and I1a1, I1a3, I1a4, and I1b in italy Romans where italien i cant belive ur arguning about this the wikpedia page even says romans where italiens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians

    that is because it is a constitution uralic speaking people in finalnd have been there for 7,000-8,000 years finalnd did not become a offical country till the 1800;s but the finnish langauge and its ancestor langauge has been in finalnd for about 8,000 years and the finnish ancestry has been in scandnvai for over 10,000 years the estrucans even though they lived in italy where not italien they because they spoke a italic language today the whole penisula is called italy because now everyone speaks a italic langauge the goths and saxons thought of themselves as first saxons or goths and second as germans the italien ethnicity technically is based on the Italian language but most of Italians ancestry has been in Italy for over 7,000 years

    modern day french are mainly decended from gauls but they also have a signifcant amount of mid eastern blood which came in greco roman age the french ethnicty is based on language so yes the Germanic franks migrated to France and then spoke the french language and became french even though there is very little Germanic blood in modern french germanc conquered most of post roman Europe but they where mainly just the leaders and did not inter marry alot

    i think most DNA genetic experts try to figur out what ancient people formed modern people and it is not a grave error ait is easily figured out through dna modern italiens come from romans ask maciamo he is a expert on gentics and migrations of ancient and pre histroic people in europe and he will tell u that i can relate modern nationalities to ancient ones it is not black and white most modern people are a mix of many ancient people and the Italian nationality based on language began 3,200ybp and ancient Romans where part of that nationalty
    The darkest people above are from EGYPT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    yes by Language and Y DNA R1b S28 Italiens and Celts are close cousins but i think u know maciamo that Italians have almost no light hair and eyes while Celts where know for those features by Romans. since Italians are more dark haired and eyed and white too olive skinned while Celts are light haired and eyed and very light skinned there is no way they are close genetic relatives. The orignal Italic speakers lived in later celtic terriotory they would have been geneticalley identical to swiss people or just people that live in the area they came from orignalley just when they migrated to Italy they inter married with the locales extremely quickly they kept y dna r1b s28 and the italic language but most of their blood came from the native farmers. So then when Italy became connected with greece and the civilized world they inter married like crazy with mid eastern people but id ont know about Greeks maybe that is why Y DNA j1, J2, and E1b1b v13 are so popular in greece and Italy and surrounding areas but not the rest of Europe also Italiens in globe13 austomnal DNA test have over 20% west asian and over 15% southwest asian most europeans have less than 6% west Asian and less than 1% southwest Asian only Italians, Greeks and surrounding countires have higher this means Italians have a significant amount of mid eastern heritage which came in greco Roman age. in austomnal DNA the north European part of Italiens came from the hunter gathers who had Y DNA I2a1a that where conquered by G2a (probably not J1, J2 and E1b1b farmers). The Mediterranean in Italians which is their biggest part in the globe13 test comes from y DNA G2a farmers like Otzie since Italians have mainly Mediterranean they probably have mainly Neolithic ancestry. The west Asian came in greco roman age some of the southwest Asian came in Neolithic and some in greco roman age.

    i dont think u should put on the genetic history of Italy that Italians are close relatives to Celts that is not true only their language and direct male linage is but most of their blood is unrelated
    Italics were a group of Bronze Age tribes. Italians are modern people. They are separate by over 3000 years of heavy genetic admixture. You cannot equal one with the other. Bronze Age Italics were most probably very Celtic-looking.

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