Where do the white kablye of north africa come from

[Alan]

That is what I meant and was telling Drac but he continues to claim they were white blah blah blah. The Egyptians were very dark and they exaggerated to make a clear distinctions between the races they saw.

I agree with you but certanly they weren't "very dark". More of a brown tone, how we see it in North India. Some Greek historians even compares the Egyptians to Indians (Known India back than was Pakistan and North India) based on pigmentation.


I imagine the ancient Egyptians this way.

http://abcnews.go.com/images/International/gty_Adel_Imam_nt_120425_wblog.jpg
http://www.cairorush.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/asser.jpg
http://www.whilemusic.com/Content/Album/Album_9059.jpg
http://travelblog.portfoliocollection.com/images/mido.png
http://nilesports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/gedo-hull-city-striker.jpg

 

[Alan]

But since ancient Egyptians were of Libyan stock and they lived next to Libya,

Nah, not true. Egyptian was closer to Semitic than Berber.Therefore Egyptians wouldb be more of a similar stock to Semites, which is genetically also the case, Egyptians have FAR less WHG and less SSA admixture than other North Africans and at the same time 4% ANE and slightly more ENF.

 

[Vukodav]

Stereotypes usually involve the majority of phenotypes not their minority. You are saying that a few light-skinned Libyans represented the majority in Egypt. I am willing to agree with you if Egyptians only saw the light skinned types. But since ancient Egyptians were of Libyan stock and they lived next to Libya, I doubt they would have chosen a minority to represent the race. The same with the Semites. The fair-skinned Berbers are a result of Iberian Muslims who fled the Christians and the 1 million other European slaves captured. Read history.

This is another legend. North West Africans lack the ANE component, so they obviously don't have recent Iberian admixture.

Light types exist among all Caucasoids. For example North Caucasians are about 10% light eyed and 2% blonde.

 

[Vukodav]

North African average is around 20% SSA admixed autosomally and in places like southern Morocco the average is higher, so they are SSA influenced.
The guys in the photo above are the average Maghrebi you can see everywhere in Italy.

Indeed. Notice how Yemeni Arabs have more SSA than the Egyptians. Some Yemeni outliers look almost like they have 40% SSA. Overall all Afro Asiatic speakers, including the Lebanese and the Syrians score between 5% and 10% of SSA.

In Henn et al 2012, Qataris from the Persian Gulf have also a significant amount of SSA. About half of them are on par with Moroccans or Algerians.

 

[Hauteville]

This is another legend. North West Africans lack the ANE component, so they obviously don't have recent Iberian admixture.

Light types exist among all Caucasoids. For example North Caucasians are about 10% light eyed and 2% blonde.

True.



By the way, Sant'Agostino d'Ippona was a Berber saint in the Roman era.
Imo these "white" looking minority derived from the ancient Berber stock (Mechta Afalou was somewhat depigmented right?), but they are a really small percentage in north Africa nowadays.

 

[Drac II]

That image is an artistic rendering, based on a mural from the tomb of Seti I, not a real image.

There is not a single written evidence that ancient Egyptians viewed Lybians and Arabs as light skinned.

Those are representations of how the Egyptians perceived themselves and the people of the nations that surrounded them. The pigments chosen to represent each nation are about as indicative of their perception of them as are the generally accurate facial features they chose to portray them with. They are based on real things, these are not representations of imaginary gods, but real people whom the Egyptians were well acquainted with.

 

[Drac II]

You did not understanding what I was saying. All I tried to show you is that the Greeks did not use color to determine a phenotype. The vase I showed you is a clear indication of that. For some strange reason the Greeks used black to portray Greek males. Of course they were not black but they are represented in black color. This explains the Egyptian depictions as not representing reality. I am beginning to think you are stubborn and you like to split hairs. Aristotle once stated that the Greeks were between the northern barbarians (who have white skin) and the Ethiopians (who have black skin). This clearly indicates that the ancient Greeks were either brown or light brown in complexion and this is likewise the same for the Semites and Berbers -- I will even go so far as to say the Romans as well! -- even the Iberians.

Whatever the cultural trait is that made the Greeks sometimes use black pigment for non-black people, it is not part of the Egyptian culture. Again, comparing apples with oranges. The depictions of the different nations known to the Egyptians are pretty clear and consistent, they are not some strange "coincidence" or some mysterious reason that would make them totally ignore reality only when it comes to pigmentation but not when it comes to other traits like facial features.

 

[Drac II]

That is what I meant and was telling Drac but he continues to claim they were white blah blah blah. The Egyptians were very dark and they exaggerated to make a clear distinctions between the races they saw.

Darker when compared to the Libyans and Syrians, but not really so when compared to the sub-Saharan Africans, as their paintings indicate. And you are not telling me anything that I haven't already told you. These are obviously stereotypes and generalizations, but based on actual facts.

 

[Drac II]

Stereotypes usually involve the majority of phenotypes not their minority. You are saying that a few light-skinned Libyans represented the majority in Egypt. I am willing to agree with you if Egyptians only saw the light skinned types. But since ancient Egyptians were of Libyan stock and they lived next to Libya, I doubt they would have chosen a minority to represent the race. The same with the Semites. The fair-skinned Berbers are a result of Iberian Muslims who fled the Christians and the 1 million other European slaves captured. Read history.

Not necessarily, a stereotype can be based on just a frequent trait, but not necessarily the majority. Do you think most Germans really fit the "blonde blue-eyed Aryan" bill? Anyone who has seen many of them will obviously disagree. Yet look how common it is. All it would take is for the Libyans to have had quite more of these fairer types among them for the Egyptians to have noticed it and then stereotype them.

 

[Alan]

Thats the second time I see that chart thrown into the room, As far as I know this chart is not scientific but made by one User based on his opinion.
The chart is completely out of sense. He obviously went the Anthroboard stereotype.

Giving ther frequency of hair and eye color by exact percentage is ridicilous to begin with because not even scientist can know exactly the percentage but this guy thinks he knows that Poland has exactly 1% more blonde hair than Switzerland? A scientifc paper would use an interval (from-to percentage).

Use at least actual semi academic data.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eqhQhrOT-...-4yE8Ou6i4/s1600/europe-eyes-general--lig.png
https://westernparadigm.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/blue_eyes_map2.jpg?w=500
http://www.google.de/url?source=img...AUQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNGDJ24L4Qx2Jh0VSg-zd4Y01sRhWA
http://www.google.de/url?source=img...AUQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNEdPVwBKQ33GyexDdBvpAM11OuFvw

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Light_hair_coloration_map.png
http://www.mappery.com/maps/Europe-Blond-Hair-Map.mediumthumb.jpg

 

[Vukodav]

North Africans are primarly descended from Semitic people. That's evident by looking at their Y-dna lineages. The main Semitic lineage, namely the J-P58, is extremely common in all North Africa.

Most North Africans were not tested for J-P58, but the ones who were tested had plenty of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#Africa

Frequency of J-P58.

Egypt: 19.7%
Tunisia (Sousse): 25.9%
Tunisia (Tunis): 31.1%
Tunisia (Sened Berbers): 31.4%
Tunisia (Andalusian Zaghouan): 43.8%
Tunisia (Cosmopolitan Tunis): 24.2%

Now for Middle Eastern Semites:

Qatar: 56.9%
UAE: 34.8%
Yemen: 67.7%
Oman: 37.2%
Ashkenazi Jews (Cohanim): 46.0%
Bedouin Negev: 64.3%
Syria (Sunni from Hama): 44.4%

 

[Drac II]

Thats the second time I see that chart thrown into the room, As far as I know this chart is not scientific but made by one User based on his opinion.
The chart is completely out of sense. He obviously went the Anthroboard stereotype.

Giving ther frequency of hair and eye color by exact percentage is ridicilous to begin with because not even scientist can know exactly the percentage but this guy thinks he knows that Poland has exactly 1% more blonde hair than Switzerland? A scientifc paper would use an interval (from-to percentage).

Perhaps the author of the chart compiled the results out of pigmentation surveys for all these countries? The percentages would not be meant as absolute fixed values but averages based on the results of the samples. Example: if you take a sample of 1000 random Swedes and find that 500 of them are blond/blondish and light eyed that gives you an estimate of about 50% of them having those traits. These figures are based on statistics and are meant as approximations, not as absolute constant values that never change.

Does anyone around here know the actual origin of the figures shown in the chart?

 

[Alan]

North Africans are primarly descended from Semitic people. That's evident by looking at their Y-dna lineages. The main Semitic lineage, namely the J-P58, is extremely common in all North Africa.

Most North Africans were not tested for J-P58, but the ones who were tested had plenty of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#Africa

Frequency of J-P58.

Egypt: 19.7%
Tunisia (Sousse): 25.9%
Tunisia (Tunis): 31.1%
Tunisia (Sened Berbers): 31.4%
Tunisia (Andalusian Zaghouan): 43.8%
Tunisia (Cosmopolitan Tunis): 24.2%

Now for Middle Eastern Semites:

Qatar: 56.9%
UAE: 34.8%
Yemen: 67.7%
Oman: 37.2%
Ashkenazi Jews (Cohanim): 46.0%
Bedouin Negev: 64.3%
Syria (Sunni from Hama): 44.4%

J1-P58 is not the proto_Semitic lineage. E1b1b* is. The lineage which distinguishes Semites from the other Afro_Astiatic speakers is the fusion with J1-P58.

The further you went to the supposed homeland of Afro-Asiatic speakers the more equal E1b1b and P58 get. When a branch of Afro_Asiatic speakers reached modern day Jordan, they merged with the local J1-P58 and became the Proto_Semites.

North Africans are for most what they were back than. Still 70-80% of North Africans are E1b1b*. North Africas was already in ancient times the target of Semiet people such as the Phoenicians. At least half of the J1-p58 can be contributed to them.
As mentioned above Egyptians is the closest cousin to Semite and bordering Levant it is very save to assume that they had a good chunk of J1-P58 since the beginning too. The Arabian expansion into North Africa change the genetic landscape at ~10%

 

[Alan]

Perhaps the author of the chart compiled the results out of pigmentation surveys for all these countries? The percentages would not be meant as absolute fixed values but averages based on the results of the samples. Example: if you take a sample of 1000 random Swedes and find that 500 of them are blond/blondish and light eyed that gives you an estimate of about 50% of them having those traits. These figures are based on statistics and are meant as approximations, not as absolute constant values that never change.

Does anyone around here know the actual origin of the figures shown in the chart?

I have seen the Thread this chart was published the guy said it is based on "images he saw on the World Wide Web and his own estimation from it". So it is not worth the space.

 

[Vukodav]

J1-P58 is not the proto_Semitic lineage. E1b1b* is. The lineage which distinguishes Semites from the other Afro_Astiatic speakers is the fusion with J1-P58.

The further you went to the supposed homeland of Afro-Asiatic speakers the more equal E1b1b and P58 get. When a branch of Afro_Asiatic speakers reached modern day Jordan, they merged with the local J1-P58 and became the Proto_Semites.

North Africans are for most what they were back than. Still 70-80% of North Africans are E1b1b*. North Africas was already in ancient times the target of Semiet people such as the Phoenicians. At least half of the J1-p58 can be contributed to them.
As mentioned above Egyptians is the closest cousin to Semite and bordering Levant it is very save to assume that they had a good chunk of J1-P58 since the beginning too. The Arabian expansion into North Africa change the genetic landscape at ~10%

J-P58 may not be the original proto Semitic haplotype, but its diffusion in Africa correlates with the spread of Semitic languages from the Southern Levant, Arabia and Gulf countries.

 

[Vukodav]

I have also seen allot of them. Moroccons looked either fully Caucasian or im some cases SSA admixed. Tunesians looked entirely Caucasian, some like Levantines and Iraqis and some like Yemenites. Well among the Egyptians I haven't seen any SSA admixed looking ones. Yet I know they exist.

Take in mind the guys in the image have a strong tan. The guys in the image look Caucasian similar to Yemenites. And as Angela said SSA admixture in North Africa exists since very ancient times and earlier. Not so strong as nowadays but still there.

Wrong, Sub-Saharan ancestry in North Africa appeared after the fall of the Roman Empire.

Mitochondrial DNA Research in the Dakhleh Oasis, Egypt
Alison M. Graver, Ryan L. Parr, Sandra Walters, Renée C. Praymak, Jennifer M. Maki and J.El Molto

Molecular genetic research is being conducted as part of the Dakhleh Oasis Project (DOP), an international and multi-disciplinary research initiative in the western desert of Egypt. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is being analyzed from both ancient human skeletal remains associated with the Roman period town of Kellis (100 to 450 AD) and contemporary inhabitants of the Dakhleh Oasis. The primary objectives of this research are to derive paleogenetic information about the inhabitants of ancient Kellis, and to develop a picture of change over time within this desert oasis. Preliminary mtDNA restriction site data and control region sequence variability suggest significant genetic differences exist between the ancient and modern oasis populations

To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.

 

[Johannes]

You are comparing apples with oranges. Ancient Egypt was not the same as ancient Greece. And Greek art could also be very realistic and accurate.

Greek vessel portraying a Negroid face and a Caucasoid face:
The Greek figures depicted above are just shown as a contrast to the light background and thus are depicted dark. This is only symbolism. BUT the "Caucasoid face" does not look European. It looks typically Middle Eastern and brown and definitely not "European."

 

[Angela]

Greek vessel portraying a Negroid face and a Caucasoid face:
The Greek figures depicted above are just shown as a contrast to the light background and thus are depicted dark. This is only symbolism. BUT the "Caucasoid face" does not look European. It looks typically Middle Eastern and brown and definitely not "European."

"Caucasian" comes from the Caucasus. The kind of old school physical anthropologists who came up with these classifications had "Georgians" in mind. Ever seen any Georgians? The majority of them don't look like Swedes.
http://orcasissues.com/wp-content/uploads/Zedashe-Ensemble.jpg


The face on the right is most probably modeled from a Greek. It's very similar to the the classic Attic Greek face. Last time I checked they were both European and Caucasian.
http://greeklandscapes.com/image-slides/aegina-aphaia-art/images/aphaia-sculpture-03.jpg

 

[Johannes]

Here the numbers of Moriscos expelled by regions.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsión_de_los_moriscos#Consecuencias

What are you talking about??? I told you the ethnic cleansing of Muslims was severe and it happened during the 12-13th centuries and you give me information about the 17th century??? Why are people in this post so ignorant? After the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa 1212 the Christians killed thousands of Muslim warriors and all of Andalusia was liberated (except little Granada). According to the chronicles all Muslims were expelled from Sevilla and Cordova. And all the Muslims from Cadiz, Huelva, Jerez, fled into either Granada or Morocco.

 

[Fire Haired14]

I'd say West Eurasian is the best term to use. Then East Asian is another very real genetic-signal.