Where do the white kablye of north africa come from

What are you talking about??? I told you the ethnic cleansing of Muslims was severe and it happened during the 12-13th centuries and you give me information about the 17th century??? Why are people in this post so ignorant? After the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa 1212 the Christians killed thousands of Muslim warriors and all of Andalusia was liberated (except little Granada). According to the chronicles all Muslims were expelled from Sevilla and Cordova. And all the Muslims from Cadiz, Huelva, Jerez, fled into either Granada or Morocco.

I don't see the difficulty here. Why would the fact that Muslims were expelled in the 12th-13th century mean that there weren't plenty of them still around to be expelled in the 17th century? Also, why were there revolts of the Moriscos in the later centuries in Valencia if they had all already been exiled to Granada?

I would recommend the following book for a thorough analysis of the difficult and protracted process involved in expelling the Moriscos from Spain.
https://books.google.com/books?hl=en...Behind&f=false
 
Greek vessel portraying a Negroid face and a Caucasoid face:
The Greek figures depicted above are just shown as a contrast to the light background and thus are depicted dark. This is only symbolism. BUT the "Caucasoid face" does not look European. It looks typically Middle Eastern and brown and definitely not "European."

"Symbolism" based obviously on direct observation of actual people. Once again, we are not talking about depictions of things that nobody has seen, like mythological beings, but representations of human types.

Caucasoid peoples have a wide range of phenotypical variation, which includes skin pigmentation, which is in fact ultimately what this thread is about. You are apparently under the mistaken impression that Europe has only been inhabited by Caucasoids who should be pale as ghosts. Also, the Caucasoid man in the Greek vase has a typically "European" facial profile. If you look at the Egyptian representations of Near Easterners, you will see that those ones do in fact have more of the stereotypical profile of "Middle Easterners". But then again you seem to think that all these ancient people were blind or stupid and were not capable of discerning such differences and portraying them except mysteriously when it came to the case of Negroid people, since you keep insisting that these portraits are just some sort of abstract symbolism.
 
It should be pointed out here that the large majority of the much talked about "Moriscos" were descendants of the Iberian converts to Islam, not Arab or Berber foreigners. 16th-17th century paintings and illustrations by both Spaniards and foreigners in Spain who witnessed the expulsions of these "Moriscos" show that phenotypically most of them were hardly any different from the Spanish Christians persecuting them, the only way to tell most of them apart from one another is in fact by the clothes they wear and not by their physical appearance:

http://www.arauco.org/SAPEREAUDE/te...2g Pere Oromig Embarquement des Morisques.jpg

http://www.arauco.org/SAPEREAUDE/te... moriscos al port de Denia. Vicent Mestre.jpg

http://admin.religionenlibertad.com/archivos/religionenlibertad.com//3359700laexpulsindelosmoris.jpg

http://lamarinaplaza.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Retrat-den-Baltasar-Mercader.jpg

http://loffit.abc.es/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Danza-Morisca.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Weiditz_Trachtenbuch_105-106.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Weiditz_Trachtenbuch_103-104.jpg

https://ernesto51.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/granada_morisca.jpg?w=655

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-trA8SDk18ak/UbMHN5JTWPI/AAAAAAAAA6w/5ejKQ5dR26I/s1600/Moriscos.jpg

https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7308/10389133563_f45df90375_b.jpg

Thus this "ethnic cleansing" was really of a religious nature, similar to what happens in the Balkans even today between Christians and Muslims, the majority of whom are in fact descended from the native inhabitants not from Turkish foreigners.
 
It should be pointed out here that the large majority of the much talked about "Moriscos" were descendants of the Iberian converts to Islam, not Arab or Berber foreigners. 16th-17th century paintings and illustrations by both Spaniards and foreigners in Spain who witnessed the expulsions of these "Moriscos" show that phenotypically most of them were hardly any different from the Spanish Christians persecuting them, the only way to tell most of them apart from one another is in fact by the clothes they wear and not by their physical appearance:

http://www.arauco.org/SAPEREAUDE/te...2g Pere Oromig Embarquement des Morisques.jpg

http://www.arauco.org/SAPEREAUDE/te... moriscos al port de Denia. Vicent Mestre.jpg

http://admin.religionenlibertad.com/archivos/religionenlibertad.com//3359700laexpulsindelosmoris.jpg

http://lamarinaplaza.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Retrat-den-Baltasar-Mercader.jpg

http://loffit.abc.es/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Danza-Morisca.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Weiditz_Trachtenbuch_105-106.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Weiditz_Trachtenbuch_103-104.jpg

https://ernesto51.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/granada_morisca.jpg?w=655

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-trA8SDk18ak/UbMHN5JTWPI/AAAAAAAAA6w/5ejKQ5dR26I/s1600/Moriscos.jpg

https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7308/10389133563_f45df90375_b.jpg

Thus this "ethnic cleansing" was really of a religious nature, similar to what happens in the Balkans even today between Christians and Muslims, the majority of whom are in fact descended from the native inhabitants not from Turkish foreigners.

Yes but not before my friend. You are absolutely right about the Moriscos. However, I was talking before about the ethnic cleansing of the Moors during the 13th century after the battle of Las Navas de Tolosa 1212. After the battle the vast majority of the Muslim population was either forced to flee or were massacred. I dont recall all the details as it has been 20 years since I read all the journals on Medieval History of the Iberian Peninsula. All I remember is that the numbers of Muslims that were removed were very large. For example, the cities of Ubeda and Baeza were completely empty when the Christians took them (I believe all the inhabitants of Ubeda fled and the the ones on Beaza were massacred -- including children and all the animals). I also remember that ALL the Muslims from Seville and Cordova were expelled and not allowed to return. Jaen, Jerez, and Cadiz also lost a large amount of Muslims. Muslims fled because they were terrified of the Christians and they could not accept being ruled by infidels. Therefore, the majority (probably millions) of the Muslim population was reduced by massacres and voluntary and forced expulsions. Most fled to Granada and Morocco. This was done by Castilians. The Aragonese, on the other hand, were not as ruthless and allowed many to stay. Many Muslims accepted being ruled by Aragonese in Valencia but were eventually were expelled during the 17th century. The Castillians under Alfonso VIII and his grandson Ferdinand III could have easily conquered Granada. But the wars had depleted the king's treasury and the expulsions of the Muslims dramatically reduced tax revenues. The kings of Castile needed money. They even begged the Christians of the North (even the French and some say the German peasants) to come and settle on cheap land in Andalusia. But the idiots refused. If they would have accepted the lots of land being sold by the kings of Castile many Christians would have become wealthy, and would have created a new middle class, which would have changed the history of Spain and Europe. Thus, vast tracts of land were sold to the Church, the Military Orders, and the nobility at cut rate prices. But this took time and the kings needed cash. Thus the Kingdom of Granada was allowed to exist because it became the cash cow of the Kings of Castile. I should add that the Black Plague saved the Muslims well). The Muslims that were left in Spain numbered no more than 250,000 by the 17th century. So if we make some calculations: during the Middle Ages there were some 2 millions of Muslims (if we take 4 millions as a total population in the peninsula). So A LOT of Muslims were removed from Europe.

It was not just the Muslims who were ethnically cleansed. The Almoravides expelled all the Christians and Jews from Andalusia, Valencia, and Saragossa. The Almoravides were Muslim fundamentalists who wanted to create and apartheid state between Muslims and non Muslims. Thus they could not tolerate infidels anymore. This was idiotic because 1/4 to 1/3 of the southern population shifted to the north and added to the coffers of the kings and provided much needed manpower to crush the Muslims.
 
Yes but not before my friend. You are absolutely right about the Moriscos. However, I was talking before about the ethnic cleansing of the Moors during the 13th century after the battle of Las Navas de Tolosa 1212. After the battle the vast majority of the Muslim population was either forced to flee or were massacred. I dont recall all the details as it has been 20 years since I read all the journals on Medieval History of the Iberian Peninsula. All I remember is that the numbers of Muslims that were removed were very large. For example, the cities of Ubeda and Baeza were completely empty when the Christians took them (I believe all the inhabitants of Ubeda fled and the the ones on Beaza were massacred -- including children and all the animals). I also remember that ALL the Muslims from Seville and Cordova were expelled and not allowed to return. Jaen, Jerez, and Cadiz also lost a large amount of Muslims. Muslims fled because they were terrified of the Christians and they could not accept being ruled by infidels. Therefore, the majority (probably millions) of the Muslim population was reduced by massacres and voluntary and forced expulsions. Most fled to Granada and Morocco. This was done by Castilians. The Aragonese, on the other hand, were not as ruthless and allowed many to stay. Many Muslims accepted being ruled by Aragonese in Valencia but were eventually were expelled during the 17th century. The Castillians under Alfonso VIII and his grandson Ferdinand III could have easily conquered Granada. But the wars had depleted the king's treasury and the expulsions of the Muslims dramatically reduced tax revenues. The kings of Castile needed money. They even begged the Christians of the North (even the French and some say the German peasants) to come and settle on cheap land in Andalusia. But the idiots refused. If they would have accepted the lots of land being sold by the kings of Castile many Christians would have become wealthy, and would have created a new middle class, which would have changed the history of Spain and Europe. Thus, vast tracts of land were sold to the Church, the Military Orders, and the nobility at cut rate prices. But this took time and the kings needed cash. Thus the Kingdom of Granada was allowed to exist because it became the cash cow of the Kings of Castile. I should add that the Black Plague saved the Muslims well). The Muslims that were left in Spain numbered no more than 250,000 by the 17th century. So if we make some calculations: during the Middle Ages there were some 2 millions of Muslims (if we take 4 millions as a total population in the peninsula). So A LOT of Muslims were removed from Europe.

It was not just the Muslims who were ethnically cleansed. The Almoravides expelled all the Christians and Jews from Andalusia, Valencia, and Saragossa. The Almoravides were Muslim fundamentalists who wanted to create and apartheid state between Muslims and non Muslims. Thus they could not tolerate infidels anymore. This was idiotic because 1/4 to 1/3 of the southern population shifted to the north and added to the coffers of the kings and provided much needed manpower to crush the Muslims.

The medieval expulsions and retreats would also have included the native Muslim population (usually called "muladies"), since they formed the bulk of it. So if I did not misunderstand your original argument, you believe that fair North Africans are due to these expulsions of Muslims from Iberia, the majority of whom ended up in North Africa. So you must be acknowledging the fact that these Muslims being expelled from Iberia were for the most part actually Europeans, otherwise your argument would not be very logical. If they were mostly "Moors" and Arabs then your argument would not have much of a point. This takes us back to my counterargument: without denying the contribution that the Iberian expulsions had in this regard, the fact still remains that it is simply impossible to attribute the presence of fairer types among North Africans to historical events like those, because we have evidence going as far back as Pharaonic times that these types already existed among North Africans, and were even common enough in some parts for the Egyptians to have noticed and stereotyped a group of people (Libyans) with those traits.
 
The medieval expulsions and retreats would also have included the native Muslim population (usually called "muladies"), since they formed the bulk of it. So if I did not misunderstand your original argument, you believe that fair North Africans are due to these expulsions of Muslims from Iberia, the majority of whom ended up in North Africa. So you must be acknowledging the fact that these Muslims being expelled from Iberia were for the most part actually Europeans, otherwise your argument would not be very logical. If they were mostly "Moors" and Arabs then your argument would not have much of a point. This takes us back to my counterargument: without denying the contribution that the Iberian expulsions had in this regard, the fact still remains that it is simply impossible to attribute the presence of fairer types among North Africans to historical events like those, because we have evidence going as far back as Pharaonic times that these types already existed among North Africans, and were even common enough in some parts for the Egyptians to have noticed and stereotyped a group of people (Libyans) with those traits.

The number of Berbers in Iberia during the Middle Ages numbered no more than 20% of the total Muslim population. So it was roughly ~ 400,000 and they lived away from the European Muslims (southern Portugal, Extremadura, and Granada areas). The Arabs dont count at all as they were too few and by the 13th century had mixed with the Europeans. The Berbers would have been the first to go because they had families right across the Strait and would have had it easy. The European Muslims had a terrible time because they were natives and going to Africa would have terrified them. Many converted but many also went into Granada and some to Morocco and Algeria. These probably numbered some thousands. And this I believe created the "white" Berbers. There are some Andalusi villages in the Rif area of northern Morocco. They said that they look exactly like the villages of Anadalusia. So there is physical proof there.

If you remember I agreed with you that there must have been red heads and light skinned Berbers in ancients times (the Jews had red-headed people too). But hey were very few. All I am saying id the Iberians who fled to Africa added to the "whiteness' of the Berbers.

here is what the Moors of the African variety probably looked like:

Juan de Pareja -- oops. next slide.
 
juan-de-pareja-1650.jpg

Juan de Pareja
 
I don't see the difficulty here. Why would the fact that Muslims were expelled in the 12th-13th century mean that there weren't plenty of them still around to be expelled in the 17th century? Also, why were there revolts of the Moriscos in the later centuries in Valencia if they had all already been exiled to Granada?

I would recommend the following book for a thorough analysis of the difficult and protracted process involved in expelling the Moriscos from Spain.
https://books.google.com/books?hl=en...Behind&f=false

See the posts at the bottom. Valencian Muslims never lived in Granada or were expelled to Granada. they were the property of the Kings of Aragon. Thats why they survived. The Muslims of Granada became vassals of the Kings of Castile. Why did many Muslims die and were expelled? Because Castilians had been the main enemies of the Muslims and had lost thousands of soldiers. The Aragonese concentrated their energies in stealing the land of the Italians in Naples and Sicily. They did conquer Valencia during the 13th century but they were more tolerant compared to the Castilians.
 
I agree with you but certanly they weren't "very dark". More of a brown tone, how we see it in North India. Some Greek historians even compares the Egyptians to Indians (Known India back than was Pakistan and North India) based on pigmentation.


I imagine the ancient Egyptians this way.

http://abcnews.go.com/images/International/gty_Adel_Imam_nt_120425_wblog.jpg
http://www.cairorush.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/asser.jpg
http://www.whilemusic.com/Content/Album/Album_9059.jpg
http://travelblog.portfoliocollection.com/images/mido.png
http://nilesports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/gedo-hull-city-striker.jpg

Herodotus clearly stated (when he visited Egypt in the 5th century BCE) that Egyptians were black or if not brown. He is the only reliable source for information about Africans.
 
The number of Berbers in Iberia during the Middle Ages numbered no more than 20% of the total Muslim population. So it was roughly ~ 400,000 and they lived away from the European Muslims (southern Portugal, Extremadura, and Granada areas). The Arabs dont count at all as they were too few and by the 13th century had mixed with the Europeans. The Berbers would have been the first to go because they had families right across the Strait and would have had it easy. The European Muslims had a terrible time because they were natives and going to Africa would have terrified them. Many converted but many also went into Granada and some to Morocco and Algeria. These probably numbered some thousands. And this I believe created the "white" Berbers. There are some Andalusi villages in the Rif area of northern Morocco. They said that they look exactly like the villages of Anadalusia. So there is physical proof there.

Anthropologists, like Carleton Coon, are well aware of these "Andalusian Moors" in North Africa and have noted them. In fact, Coon even implied that the "Moors" were influenced by the Andalusians more than the other way around. However, what you consider as "white Berbers" already existed long before that.

here is what the Moors of the African variety probably looked like:


We have plenty of Roman coins and busts depicting North Africans, they certainly did not look like Pareja, who was a descendant of sub-Saharan slaves. Just look at the busts and coins of Macrinus or Aemilianus.
 
North Africans are primarly descended from Semitic people. That's evident by looking at their Y-dna lineages. The main Semitic lineage, namely the J-P58, is extremely common in all North Africa.

Most North Africans were not tested for J-P58, but the ones who were tested had plenty of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#Africa

Frequency of J-P58.

Egypt: 19.7%
Tunisia (Sousse): 25.9%
Tunisia (Tunis): 31.1%
Tunisia (Sened Berbers): 31.4%
Tunisia (Andalusian Zaghouan): 43.8%
Tunisia (Cosmopolitan Tunis): 24.2%

Now for Middle Eastern Semites:

Qatar: 56.9%
UAE: 34.8%
Yemen: 67.7%
Oman: 37.2%
Ashkenazi Jews (Cohanim): 46.0%
Bedouin Negev: 64.3%
Syria (Sunni from Hama): 44.4%

This does not show anything from Morocco or Algeria. These are the only places where "true" Berbers live. Tunisia and everything east is heavily mixed with Arabs and other Semites.
 
Anthropologists, like Carleton Coon, are well aware of these "Andalusian Moors" in North Africa and have noted them. In fact, Coon even implied that the "Moors" were influenced by the Andalusians more than the other way around. However, what you consider as "white Berbers" already existed long before that.

We have plenty of Roman coins and busts depicting North Africans, they certainly did not look like Pareja, who was a descendant of sub-Saharan slaves. Just look at the busts and coins of Macrinus or Aemilianus.
I used Pareja only to show the negroid side of the Moors. I probably did not mentioned it. Of course the vast majority of the "Moors" were in fact European. I am also in agreement that there were some "white" Moors in antiquity. But they were small in number. The European Muslims added more to the DNA. I believe 10-15% of Moroccan DNA is European.
 
Anthropologists, like Carleton Coon, are well aware of these "Andalusian Moors" in North Africa and have noted them. In fact, Coon even implied that the "Moors" were influenced by the Andalusians more than the other way around. However, what you consider as "white Berbers" already existed long before that.
Not only influenced but created the whole Muslim culture in Iberia. The Berbers were backwards country pumpkins and the Arabs were slightly more advanced. They learned everything from Europeans, especially Greeks and Romans. Very little was actually "Arabian or Berber."
 
I see North Africans everyday and most of them look SSA influenced and the rest look like gulf Arabs (especially the Tunisians and the Egyptians).
The few like Zidane are a rarity.


Are these truly Berbers or Arab? They look like Egytians to me. Berbers are not as dark as these. They look to me like Arabs from Yemen.
 
Not only influenced but created the whole Muslim culture in Iberia. The Berbers were backwards country pumpkins and the Arabs were slightly more advanced. They learned everything from Europeans, especially Greeks and Romans. Very little was actually "Arabian or Berber."

This was true at first, during the early years of Islam, but later on the Muslims (including Arabs, Persians, Berbers and Europeans) made their own contributions and improvements. For example, the ancient Greeks thought that vision was because the eyes emitted "visual rays", while the medieval Muslims more correctly explained that it was the objects being seen that emitted the light that hits the eyes:

http://www.visionlearning.com/en/library/Hidden/59/Alhazen:-Early-experiments-on-light/170
 
I used Pareja only to show the negroid side of the Moors. I probably did not mentioned it. Of course the vast majority of the "Moors" were in fact European. I am also in agreement that there were some "white" Moors in antiquity. But they were small in number. The European Muslims added more to the DNA. I believe 10-15% of Moroccan DNA is European.

I have looked at dozens upon dozens of examples of depictions of "Moors" and other North Africans from Roman and medieval times, and it is extremely safe to conclude that the Negroid elements among them were minimal at best. On top of that we also have the written statements by the medieval "Moors" themselves, who obviously did not see themselves as "blacks" and clearly distinguished themselves from sub-Saharan Africans. The whole "Moors were black" claim is an Afrocentric fairy tale, same as the claims that Egyptians, Arabs and even the Olmecs and early Chinese were supposedly "black" too.
 
This was true at first, during the early years of Islam, but later on the Muslims (including Arabs, Persians, Berbers and Europeans) made their own contributions and improvements. For example, the ancient Greeks thought that vision was because the eyes emitted "visual rays", while the medieval Muslims more correctly explained that it was the objects being seen that emitted the light that hits the eyes:

http://www.visionlearning.com/en/library/Hidden/59/Alhazen:-Early-experiments-on-light/170

True but since the overwhelming majority of southern Iberians converted to Islam (80%) it was hard to tell who was from who after the 10th century. By then the Arabs and Persians had disappeared as a phenotype. Only the Berbers and Europeans remained. So any "hot shot" scientist who made a contribution just said he was an "Arab." In the beginning "Arab" was an ethnic definition but it then changed an became cultural. For example, today many Berbers who live in the cities call themselves "Arabs" but they have little or no Arab DNA. However, the Berbers who live in small towns and villages call themselves "Amazagin." The same is true throughout the whole of North Africa. In Muslim Spain a man who is called "al-Gudiyya" simply means son of Goth. A man who called himself "al mardinesh" is simply son of Martin or Martinez. So all these so-called "great" contributions by Arabs were actually made by Iberians or hybrids, although there were some who were real Semites and Persians.
 

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