I am working on a thread right now that is all about the Germanic tribes their history and their genetics. Here i what i have so far i am stuck on the migration period and their relationship with huns, fall of the roman empire, and medieval age. It is really hard to explain all of that. I think maybe i should summarize more.
I think the Germanic tribes are extremely important. They where about to conquer the Gauls and probably most of the Celtic world. They where extremely powerful warriors and defeated Rome in many battles. They where the last western Europeans to keep their tradtional culture the celts where conquered and changed by Rome later Germans where also conquered by Rome in culturally.
even as recent as 1,000ybp Germans in Scandinavia kept the traditional Germanic/ Indo European culture which i think is the reason Vikings where so violent and scared the more civilized Europeans.
The Germans conquered the western Roman empire they ruled everyspot of western Europe in the early middle ages. The Germans had become civlized and they converted to Christianity and started the medieval age the whole knight and castle thing is from Germans The princes being saved by the knight in shinning armour came from Germanic stroies i guess orignalley it would have been a Germanic warrior with plaid clothing and chainmail.
European Christendom is from Germans. Christianity was spreading like crazy all over Europe, mid east, and north Africa. i guess insular Celts in Ireland also converted but the German Christians are the source of the idea Christianity is the white mans aka Europeans religion.
It was the barbarian Germans who eventulley became civilized Are the main creatures of modern western civilization the most dominate civilization in human history.
The Romanized Germans are the source of modern Europe. they are extremely important in the origin of the modern western world. Think about the USA in a way descends from Germanic tribes. Also most white Americans who take up over 60% of the american population are mainly of Germanic ancestry. Nearly every american president has been mainly Germanic in blood and probably had mainly Germanic R1b S21.
Through a mix of R1a1a1b European hunter gathers from the steppes mixed with R1b L23 and R1b M269 Middle eastern farmers and early bronze makers from the Caucus gave birth to Indo European culture and language. It is hard to say who where first people to speak a Indo European language but it was people mainly descended from the Russian and Ukrainian European hunter gathers who also had alot of the middle eastern R1b who spread the language.
Reconstruction of a "Red Franz". Who is a bog body.
found in Germany alot of his flesh and bones where preserved and his facial and head hair was preserved By looking at his thigh muscles it seems that he ride horses ofenlley. He had a healed wound on his left arm possibly cause by an arrow head so he was probably a warrior. He died by getting his throat slashed so someone murdered him but probably not in battle.
King Charlemagne descended of Germanic Frank tribes. He was the first emperor of the Holy Roman empire which took of most of modern day Italy and the land in between. His Franks had become much more civilized than their ancestors and attempted to be a new Rome. They also had converted to Christianity and left their old Germanic religions like just about all other Germans and Europeans. The now civilized Germanic kingdoms became the rulers of medieval Europe.
Origin of the Germanic tribes
There where different Russian/Ukrianen's Indo European ethnic groups 6,000ybp. From 6,000 and 5,000 year old DNA from early Indo Europeans in southern Russia they had pale skin liken Europeans today and mainly brown eyes like the people in that area today. 3,800 year old DNA from early Indo iranien Indo Europeans in south Siberia who migrated out of Russia 5,000ybp. Had mainly light eyes and light hair some later remains had red hair. So some early Indo Europeans in Russia and Ukriane 6,000ybp where very light haired and eyed and had alot of red hair some where almost only brown haired and brown eyed or a mix of the two.
It seems like the Germanic Italo Celts where very red haired people because there is strong evidence all red hair in western Europe is from Germanic Italo Celts (click here it kind of explains it). It does not seem that they also had alot of blonde hair like the Indo iraniens though. So they may have been like the Udmurts in central Russia today and Irish people 10-20% red hair and 70-80% brown hair.
The Germanic Italo Celtic speakers migrated to Germany about 5,000ybp. Which explains why two 4,600 year old Y DNA samples from central Germany had R1b but where negative for Germanic R1b S21/U106. There are 31 y DNA samples in western Europe from 7,000-4,725ybp none had R1b so this obviously means 4,600ybp R1b L11/P310 Germanic Italo Celts where already in Germany.
They migrated from either Russia-Poland-Germany or Russia-Bulgaria-Germany. Then about 4,500ybp the Italo Celts split into R1b S116/P312 and conquered modern day austira and started Unetice culture the Germans split into R1b S21/U106 conquered modern day Denmark, south Norway and Sweden and started the Nordic Bronze age which is where Germanic culture was born about 4,000ybp. Eupedia's migrations maps (made by Maciamo) explain how all migrations in Europe from 8,000-3,000ybp happened very accurately (click here to see the maps).
3,600-3,800 year old Chariot from the Nordic bronze age. Some experts believe it is related to Germanic mythology.
Sword from Nordic bronze age
The first Germanic speakers where a mix of native central Europeans who had Y DNA I2a2 and I1a and Germanic's who had mainly R1b S21/U106 and then later Danish/south Scandinavians who had I1a2, with a little R1a Z284. Since the Germanics where the dominate group who conquered the central Europeans and south Scandinavians most of the Y DNA was R1b S21/U106. The red hair and probably most of the brown hair came from the Germanic's most of the blonde hair probably comes from the central Europeans and south Scandinavians. But figuring out where the hair colors come from is much harder that is just my theory.
Most archaeological experts agree that from about 4,000-2,700ybp. The Germanic language and culture only existed in Denmark, southern Scandinavia, northern Germany, and Netherlands to Vistula. Then Migrated to all other German speaking areas after 700bc. Since the German language migrated from Germany to Scandinavia there is a chance some people with a related language and culture with R1b S21 lived in Germany 4,000-2,700ybp.
I think very good evidence for this idea. Is a 3,000 year old R1b sample in Lichtenstein Cave apart of Ceramic part of Urnfield culture. Lichtenstein Cave is literally right in the center of Germany. U can see on the link if gives the R1b its haplotype so i put that haplotype into a haplogroup predictor click here to see the predictor i used. I got FrisanR1b=> 33%,R1b S21*=>33%. Frisan people are Germanic and have 30-40% R1b S21 so that means this 3,000 yer old central German. Most likely had Germanic R1b S21/U106 which also means a group of people who spoke a related language to German was settled in Germany or they where a Germanic people.
Iron age Migrations
Map of Germanic migrations from 750bc-1ad
Like i said before most experts believe the Germanic tribes prior to 700bc only lived in Denmark southern Scandinavia, northern Germany and the Netherlands to Vistula possibly also parts of central Germany. Also that all Germanic languages not in those areas come from Germanic migrations after 700bc in the Iron age. In archaeology it seems that Germanic tribes descended from Nordic Bronze age culture made migrations from southern Scandinavia to coast of eastern Germany toward Vistula. These Germanic tribes where heavily influenced by Hallstatt and Urnfield Celts with R1b S28 ad other R1b S116 subclades who where migrating north from mainly around Austira. I already explained in the thread R1b S28 and R1b S116 Beast Iron and Bronze age Italo Celtic warrior DNA marker. That Italo Celtic warriors dominated bronze and Iron age western and central Europe. Iron had triggered their migrations into Italy and further into western and northern Europe. The Germanic tribes from 850-650bc where faced against very powerful warriors. I am sure they had to fight to keep their new land.
In 250bc there where many Germanic migration too the south. Archaeology and linguistic evidence says that there where 5 distinct language groups in this migration. North Germanic in southern Scandinavia, North sea Germanic along the north sea and Jutland, Rhine-Wesser Germanic ( a West Germanic langauge ancestral to Dutch and other Low Franconoian languages) along the middle Rhine and Wesser, Elbe Germanic( a West Germanic language ancestral to High German) along the middle Elbe, and East Germanic (a extinct branch of the Germanic language family) between the middle Oder and Vistula. These migrating Germanic tribes where heavily influenced by Hallstatt/ La Tene Celts. Influence by Celts in Germanic tribes reached as far north as the traditional areas of the Nordic Bronze age in south Scandinavia.
Two world's collide Germanic tribes migrating south from northern Europe meet up with the Roman civilization migrating north from Italy. The result is constant wars.
The backwoods Germanic tribes around 200bc began to meet up with civilized Rome they where from two completely different world's from each other. The Germans had been isolated in far northern Europe since 2000bc they where straight from Bronze and Iron age European cultures. They had influence from Gauls since 700bc who where a little more civilized and had some contact with the civilized world. The Romans where apart of the civilized world around the Mediterranean and the middle east. From what Roman writers say it was the primitive Barbarian world vs the civilized tamed world. Of course those Roman writers where biased and claimed the Romans where the good guys and the Germans where total sabotages. Even though it was Rome who conquered and massacred people all over Europe, north Africa, and the middle east. It is true the Germans defintley where sabotages they would have conquered all of western Europe and much of eastern Europe if Rome never got in their way.
Compared to the rest of the world the Germans where very advanced but compared to Rome, Greece, north Africa, middle east, India, China they where not. The Germans had iron, bronze, farming, chariots and alot of other advanced stuff. But what they did not have was civilization which is not just advanced technology it is a type of society which is the main difference from the Germans, Rome, and the rest of the civilized world.
The Germans where apart of a tribal society and a more primitive world than the Romans. To us modern western people the Germans would seem like wild violent people living in the foreasts or in remote areas as farmers. The German men ofentlley had long hair and big beards and the women would have very long wild hair. The Romans men had short hair and shaved alot the women hair was ofentlley put in fancy styles and not as wild and long as Germans. The Germans wore tunics with colorful patterns like Celts and modern Irish and Scottish, trouser, and animal skins (click here a link which explains German and Celtic clothing) the Romans wore toagas which are like fancy robes and tunics.
It is hard to explain it but basically Romans and Germans where two extremely different people. I know that is part of the reason Romans hated them if the Germans could write i am sure they would insult the Romans for being fancy or soft.
Germans on top Romans on bottom.
German on top Roman on bottom
Germanic tribes in the Roman period
According to Roman authors From 200-100bc there where many Germanic invasions of Celtic Gaul some invasions went as far south as Spain and Italy. Germanic tribes Cimbri, Teutons, and Abrones from Denmark had a major war with Rome from 109-100bc. Cimbri, Teutons, and Abrones who would have had about 30-40% Y DNA I1a2, 30-40% R1b S21/U106. Migrated south out of Denmark and had many successful battles against Gaulic Celts. They also invaded Gauls who where allied with Rome so Romans came to help their allies and where defeated almost completely annihilated by the Germanic tribes at the battle of Noreia. So the Germanic tribes have made a very terrifying first impression to Rome showing they had more powerful militarie force than the Gauls and possibly even a great civilization like Rome.
After this these German tribes don't decide to invade Italy they keep migrating in Gaul and face the Romans in many battles and winning most of them. These Germanic tribes planned to invade the Roman republic in 105bc. The Germans defeated the Romans at the battle of Arusio killing about 112,000 Roman soldiers. Rome was in panic a major new threat had just formed in the north. It seemed like the Germans where going to destroy and sack Rome like Gauls did in 390bc.
While the Cimbri and other Germans in 103bc had many successful pillages of Iberia. The Romans where able to stop the German invasion of Italy. They stopped the Cimbri at the Po river in 101bc at the battle of Vercelle. As the Germanic tribes faced defeat against Rome in Italy many of their chiefs where killed in battle and the women and children committed suicide to avoid slavery. The Cimbri where almost completely anhilated except some may have survived in Denmark till 100ad. Some surviving German captives where reported as being gladiators in the Third Servile war 73-71bc.
Map of Cimbri and Teuton migrations and battles against Rome Cimbri or Teuton defeats green Cimbri and Teuton victory
This Roman Germanic war from 109-100bc showed Romans that the Germans where a very big threat. That they where brave fighters and are probably the second most powerful people in Europe with Rome at number one. Julius Caesar used the German threat as one of his justification for conquering the Gauls because Rome had to control more northern areas to defend against Germans. Ceasar says at one time the Gauls had more military prowess than the Germans and had invaded and taken German land acroos the Rhine. He says the Gauls had been indulged in Luxuries and civilization, and Because of this the Germans where tougher and at the time they had been defeating the Gauls.
So now by 1ad Romans had taken up almost all of the Celts land(except Ireland and Scotland) Celts where Germans biggest competitors. The Germans where becoming the next super power in central and western Europe then the Romans took their spot. Germans where a war like people so they defintley had problems with Rome and Rome was war like and was very expansive so they had problems with Germans. The Germans had a tribal society and rural the Romans where civilized and more urban these and many other things cause Germanic Roman wars.
The Germanic tribes Sugambri, Tencteri, Usipetes had major victories over Rome in 16bc. Then to teach the Germans who's boss Rome conquered much of Germania and where going to attempt a full conquering of the Germanic tribes known as magna Germania. Romans where forcing many Germans to leave their traditions and become like Romans. This really really got Germans pissed
The result was the battle of Teutoburg foreast in 9 AD which is one of the most famous Roman defeats. An alliance of Germanic tribes lead by Arminus and Cherusci ambushed and defeated the Roman legions and auxiliaries of Publis Quinctlilus Varus. Once again the Germans prove themselves as a worthy threat to Rome.
Here is a video reconstructing the battle of Teutoburg forest. The Germans are basically how Roman art depicted them they had the right clothing but the beards and hair sometimes are a little to long. So this video is fairly accurate but not perfect.
It seems that the Germanic tribes where ready to migrate and conquer the Celts and much of Europe. Then the civilized organized Romans with their smart generals and unlimited amount of full equipped solders get in their way. This must have gotten the Germans jealous and angre at Rome. Germans seemed to be so eager to migrate and conquer starting around 200bc. The Celts couldn't beat them and it seemed at first Rome couldn't either but because Rome was organized and now had almost the entire Celtic world and the Mediterranean there is no way the Germans could conquer Rome now.
The Germans where migrating and conquering many non Roman areas in Europe during the early period of the Roman empire around 0-100ad. The east Germanic tribes Goths and Vandals migrated out of southern Scandinavia and took alot of land in eastern Europe mainly around Poland and mixed alot with the Slavs cultralley. The Polish Slavic's would have had about 50-60% Y DNA R1a1a1b1a. The east Germans orignally would have had about 30-40% R1b S21/U106, about 20-40% I1a subclades, and 5-15% I2a2. Germanic tribes had migrated pretty far east.
map of Magna Germania and the Roman empire in 200ad
map of Germans and their language family in 1AD. Blue North Germanic, Red North sea Germanic, Orange Weser-Rhine Germanic, Yellow Elbe Germanic, Green east Germanic
Major Germanic migrations and invasions of Rome
By 200-300AD the Goths and Vandals had conquered land from Poland all the way to the black sea and the Danubian. They had almost all the land that bordered the Roman empire's territory in Europe. The Vandals and Goths where conquering and mixing with mainly Indo Iranian Indo Europeans like Sytheins and Sarmatiens who would have had almost only Y DNA R1a1a1b2 and some I2a1b. They migrated there from central Asia hundreds of years earlier. They also had La Tene Celtic and Thracen elements in their culture. The first Greek references to Goths they called them Sytheins. Probably because Goths where living in the area Sythiens had ruled for hundreds of years and because Goths had a similar lifestyle that was not like Greeks, Romans, and other civilizations.
The Vandals where split into two major groups the Silingi around the Czech republic and the Hasdingi around Poland, western Slovakia, and Hungary. From 200-400ad while Goths where conquering Sarmatiens around the Black sea they split into two groups. The Visgoths ruled by the Balthi family and the Ostrogogths ruled by the Amali family. Visgoths became the western Goths and the Ostrogoths became the eastern Goths.
It is hrad to say how Germanic the eastern Germans really where. They where influenced alot by the people they conquered like Indo Iranian Sytheins and Sarmatiens who also had La Tene Celtic and Thracian elements. They where also heavily influenced by Rome. They became much more organzied and civlized than the Germans in 200bc theyw here able to create organized kingdoms. Eventuley it was Germanic kingdoms that conquered most of western and central Europe and started the medival age. Also eastern germans and other Germans where converting to Christianity very quickly eventulley all Germans became Christian mainly by will but leaders felt so strong about it they forced people too. Germanic religion was very importnat to German society it is what they based many of their decisions on like weather to go to war or not. There is no doubt that Germans in the 300ad's where very differnt than Germans in the 100bc's.