Ordering a DNA test in France is a crime punishable by heavy fines and jail time

Even a prohibition on paternity testing seems nonsensical to me. Why can't someone know who their father is? It's entirely up to the State to decide who is the father of whom? Is it based on some kind of fear that DNA tests could start dissolving French families and make society collapse? I really don't get it.
 
Degredado said:
Even a prohibition on paternity testing seems nonsensical to me. Why can't someone know who their father is? It's entirely up to the State to decide who is the father of whom? Is it based on some kind of fear that DNA tests could start dissolving French families and make society collapse? I really don't get it.
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One thing government hates is insecurity of property rights, particularly real property rights. Questions about paternity would cause all kinds of lawsuits relating to wills and estates. If someone can't be sure that a person who offers property for sale is the rightful owner, the government does have the right to be concerned about that.
 
Sile said:
The french royalty became "illegitimate" once they made Napoleon Bonaparte emperor ...............
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Oddly enough; Napoleon Bonaparte had the Jewish subclade of haplogroup E1b1b. And he wasn't even "French"; and was also Corsican and Italian in origin.
 
Melancon said:
Oddly enough; Napoleon Bonaparte had the Jewish subclade of haplogroup E1b1b. And he wasn't even "French"; and was also Corsican and Italian in origin.
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Are you saying that Greeks and Albanians are Jewish? They seem to have about as high a rate of E1b1b as Jewish people do. It's less common in Corsica but about 8% of the population has it, and they're not all Jewish. E1b1b is scattered all around Europe at various levels and has probably been there since the Neolithic. Why would it matter if Napolean had a bit of Jewish ancestry anyway? He considered himself to be Corsican and Catholic.
 
Aberdeen said:
One thing government hates is insecurity of property rights, particularly real property rights. Questions about paternity would cause all kinds of lawsuits relating to wills and estates.
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Hmm, maybe. On the other hand, it basically allows men to evade all responsibility if they father an unwanted child. All he has to do is say, "well, the kid isn't mine", and then that's it? Unless French courts can determine paternity testing in such cases. The whole idea of this ban just seems like a heavy price to pay for a small gain.
 
Aberdeen said:
Are you saying that Greeks and Albanians are Jewish? They seem to have about as high a rate of E1b1b as Jewish people do. It's less common in Corsica but about 8% of the population has it, and they're not all Jewish. E1b1b is scattered all around Europe at various levels and has probably been there since the Neolithic. Why would it matter if Napolean had a bit of Jewish ancestry anyway? He considered himself to be Corsican and Catholic.
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Yes but he was in no way French. At least, genetically.
 
There are paternity proceedings in every modern jurisdiction, in so far as I'm aware, and paternity tests are routinely used in those proceedings.* (including France)The question usually arises in the context of support or custody proceedings. A mother directly, or Social Services on her behalf, sues to get child support from a putative father, and dna testing is used to prove paternity. (The state is not interested in using tax dollars to support children if it can be avoided.)

The more problematical situation is when a child is born in wedlock but the father either learns or suspects that he is not the biological father. Owing to the concern for family stability and the welfare of the child, there is, in every common law jurisdiction of which I'm aware, including the U.S., a presumption that a child conceived in wedlock is the child of the father. To defeat a claim for support or contest paternity a man must rebut that presumption. A dna test is one means, a new means, to overcome that presumption.

However, despite any test showing that he is not the biological father, a man can still be held to be the "legal" father and be required to pay child support. This is based on the common law principle that the welfare of the child is the primary concern. Absent specific legislation, judges have a great deal of discretion, and they are allowed to look at things like the length of the relationship, whether the man acted in loco parentis etc. Of course, some of these outcomes can seem very unfair to the man. See the following article for real life situations in which this plays out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/magazine/22Paternity-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

It should be noted that French courts can and do order paternity testing. They don't, however, allow individual men to acquire and administer the test themselves.

*Edited for clarity
 
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Melancon said:
Yes but he was in no way French. At least, genetically.
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Genetically, 7.5% of the total French population is E1b1b. The percentage varies dramatically from one part of the country to another, with the figures being higher for those parts of the country that probably still have a lot of Neolithic ancestry and lower in those areas where Indo-Europeans from the Eurasian steppes probably had more of a population replacement effect. So I suppose one could say that E1b1b is "more French" than R, since it's been in France longer.
 
Aberdeen said:
Genetically, 7.5% of the total French population is E1b1b. The percentage varies dramatically from one part of the country to another, with the figures being higher for those parts of the country that probably still have a lot of Neolithic ancestry and lower in those areas where Indo-Europeans from the Eurasian steppes probably had more of a population replacement effect. So I suppose one could say that E1b1b is "more French" than R, since it's been in France longer.
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There are different subclades of E1b1b though. E-V13 is the only one I know of that developed in the European/Caucasian race. I believe the one Napoleon Bonaparte has; E-M34 is actually the most common haplogroup in Ashkenazi Jews. But I don't know if you would consider them Europeans.
 
Melancon said:
There are different subclades of E1b1b though. E-V13 is the only one I know of that developed in the European/Caucasian race. I believe the one Napoleon Bonaparte has; E-M34 is actually the most common haplogroup in Ashkenazi Jews. But I don't know if you would consider them Europeans.
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There is no way of knowing when a specific line of E-M34 arrived in a particular area. It could have been any time from the Neolithic to the twenty years ago.

As for the Jews, they carry a specific subclade of E-M34. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have tested the Buonaparte family lineage to a more specific subclade. Jews also carry lots of what used to be called J1e, J2a, R1a, R1b, and other y lineages.

At any rate, a single uniparental marker does not determine ethnicity. Autosomes determine that, and if phenotype is any indication, Napoleon and his entire family have a great deal of Tuscan and Ligurian ancestry, as we indeed know from their documented family tree.
 
Update!
[h=1]Maybe it is OK for the government to do it, but not individuals?[/h]
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ormandy-residents-riles-anti-racism-activists

Maciamo said:
This is not a joke. Read this article. I have had confirmation from official French websites that this was entirely true. If you order a paternity test via the Internet or by telephone in France, you risk a year in prison and a fine of € 15,000 (Article 226-28 of the Penal Code).

Practically any DNA test can be construed as a paternity test, even if it is not advertised as such. Anybody can disprove a man's paternity by comparing even very limited segments of DNA between two individuals. The only DNA test that wouldn't count as paternity test would be an mtDNA test (as mitochondrial DNA is only inherited through one's mother). Even an extremely basic test for a single mutation could in practice happen to disprove a paternity event, if the presumed father and son are homozygous for different alleles (e.g. the presumed father has the CC allele while the son has TT). The last example will only be conclusive in a minority of cases, but can still be regarded as a form of paternity test.

Since there is no probation possible for a paternity test (once you know, you know, and it cannot be undone), the jail sentence provided by the law cannot be converted into a suspended sentence. French judges also happen to have much less freedom to interpret the law as in countries using common law (i.e. in most of the English-speaking world). A French judge has to enforce the law the way lawmakers enacted it. In other words ordering a DNA in France will inevitably land you in prison if you are found guilty.

With this ridiculous legislation, France, the so-called land of Human Rights, is breaching some of men's most fundamental modern rights:

- the right of knowing one's genome, knowing who one is.
- the right of knowing one's genetic risks for diseases.
- the right of knowing for sure that a man is the father of his children
- the right of knowing if one was adopted
- the right to search for one's biological parent(s)
- the right to use genetic genealogy to complete one's paper genealogy.
- the right to know one's genetic make-up from a population genetics's point of view (knowing one's "ethnic admixtures" and where one fits in the world's genetic landscape).


It is time that French lawmakers put an end to this absurdity. What I cannot understand is how the French people, known for going on strike and staging nationwide demonstrations at the drop of a hat for much less serious infringement of their rights, and sometimes even for necessary reforms, have never objected to this serious breach of rights. How can the French gather millions of demonstrators for or against gay marriage (which concerns only a small minority of the population), but not fight for the essential rights listed above. How can a man ever love and care about his children without knowing if they are truly his ? And how can you invest in a proper upbringing and education of your kids if you don't know for sure they are yours ? It may sound cynical, but the figures don't lie. In any country, whatever the culture, religion, or degree of sexual freedom, at least a few percent of all children born under wedlock are not the husband's biological children. France has long been one of the most libertine countries on Earth, so French men should be more concerned than others about their presumed paternity.
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Do they really are so stupid
that they banned genetic? :petrified:

And this is the graetest achievement
that freewoldism+equality=stupidity :unsure:
 
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