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Thread: Map of Hallstatt and La Tène expansions

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow Map of Hallstatt and La Tène expansions



    I have made a new map showing the spread of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures from the Late Bronze Age to the Late Iron Age. There were already maps on Wikipedia but some lacked accuracy, others didn't show the modern borders or cut out Eastern Europe and Anatolia.



    I have also updated the page Interesting facts about the ancient Celts.
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    Regarding what they called themselves I would be skeptical if it was something like Gael, as the term in an Irish context came from a Welsh word that means raider or wildman. In gaelic the word for foreigner is gall, given interaction between Ireland and France I wonder if that's where the Irish word came from.

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    Thanks for these awesome maps. Can u please make a R1b P310/L11 so we can get an idea how Germanic Italo Celtic R1b is spread out.

    isn't true that that almost all the areas of the Hallstate/La Dene Celtic empire where conquered in the iron age 3,200ybp Celts only had areas around Austria, France, and possibly Britain and Ireland then from 3,200-2,200ybp Hallstatt Celts migrated out of Austria and just conquered almost everyone they med up with. The brother culture to Hallstatt Celtic culture is Italic Villnoavean culture which migrated out of the alps and conquered Italy 3,200-3,000ybp. So the Italic and Celtic Iron age culture conquered many area.

    The earliest Italic Celtic Iron makers would have been around Austria 3,200ybp in the Urnfield culture. and would have had R1b S28/U152. That is why i call it the beast Iron age warrior marker because the Italic and Celtic warriors dominated Iron age Europe.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have made a new map showing the spread of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures from the Late Bronze Age to the Late Iron Age.
    Someday it may be possible to extend the dates in the excellent new graphic to 100 BCE and include part of Ireland for the following reasons.

    All of the La Tène artifacts unearthed in Ireland have been found in the northern part. The metal finds are generally made from bronze, but in the La Tène style. Other finds are the La Tène Beehive querns found in the same general areas, but not in the exact locations. The metal objects are found in the good land and the querns are found in the poorer land. It is believed that this indicates a class distinction and indicates a population change beyond just mounted warriors.

    The three principle tribes in this area were the Connachta(Féini), Ulaidh, and the Laighin and it was about these peoples that the Ulster Cycle and in particular, the Táin Bó Cúailnge were composed. In a very old law tract, we find "There were three principal kinships in Ireland: the Féini, the Ulaidh, and the Gáilni, i.e., the Laighin.".

    Pronunciations:
    Ulaidh = Uly; Tir Ulaidh => Ulster
    Laighin = Layin; Tir Laighin => Leinster
    Emhain Macha = Avan Macha
    Cruachain = Cruacin
    Táin Bó Cúailnge = Tawn Bo Cooley; Cattle driving of Cooley - Cooley is a peninsula in County Louth.

    IronAgeIreland.jpg


    Work has been done in the last few decades by archaeologists who have identified two clear horizons which unite the Connachta, Ulaidh, and the Laighin by way of what are called their Royal Sites which are identified in the Táin.

    These are the 'Royal Sites' of the Táin Bó Cúailnge which have been identified and studied. Emhain is the best studied and Cruachain the worst, but that is improving.
    Knockaulin - Dún Ailinne of the Laighin
    Tara - the most important
    Navan Fort - Emhain Macha of the Ulaidh
    Rathcroghan - Cruachain of the Connachta



    Horizons (summarized):
    4th century BCE - late second BCE: A series of figure-of-eight structures are built in Emhain, Dún Ailinne and Tara. (Unknown at Cruachain). They have no parallel anywhere in Europe.
    1st century BCE (95 BCE at Emhain by dendrochronology): The figure-of-eight structures are removed and a "40 meter structure" is built at all 4 sites. They have no parallel anywhere in Europe.

    It seems that the archeology reveals a direct prehistoric datable connection among the Connachta, Ulaidh, and the Laighin which parallels the stories of the Ulster Cycle. This may mean something about the spread of La Tène and possibly M222.

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    Maciamo, I'd like to ask what's your source for the map?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Maciamo, I'd like to ask what's your source for the map?
    The Historical Atlas of the Celtic World

    Exploring The World of "The Celts"

    + other historical atlases.
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    The La Tène artifact at Navan Fort

    Emhain Macha, now called Navan Fort is about 260 m across. It is 2 Km west of the city of Armagh. The site marked B is the location of the figure-of-eight and 40-meter structures. The 40 m structure at Site B, the enclosure of Navan Fort itself, and The Dorsey have all been dated by dendrochronology to 95 BCE. The Dorsey is about 20 Km south of Navan and is considered part of the Black Pig's Dyke across southern Ulster.



    At the upper right is a small lake called Loughnashade in which four bronze La Tène style trumpets were found in 1798. Only one of these survives and Chris Lynn dates it to the first century BCE/CE.

    The BBC series called Time Team did a show about Navan: S03-E05 "Palace of the Irish Kings (Navan, Co Armagh)". It is on YouTube and shows a modern artisan recreating the trumpet's end disc.

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    Unfortunately, the books cited as sources are twelve years out of date.

    Some members might be interested in some recently released research.
    http://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/La_Tene_culture

    As the map reflects the situation in Italy, this paper in the compendium is informative, showing influence all the way to the Ligurian coast.
    http://www.academia.edu/2198871/I_Celti_in_Italia


    A paper in the compendium suggesting something less than mass movements of people.
    http://www.academia.edu/3716151/Evid..._Bibele_Italy_

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Unfortunately, the books cited as sources are twelve years out of date.
    That's too bad. The archaeological will have changed tremendously. Did Hallstatt start in Spain or in Russia according to the latest data ?
    As the map reflects the situation in Italy, this paper in the compendium is informative, showing influence all the way to the Ligurian coast.
    http://www.academia.edu/2198871/I_Celti_in_Italia
    I checked the paper, but there is nothing that contradicts my map. The "influence" in Liguria is minimal. I didn't even include Ireland on the map, despite the wealth of La Tène style artefacts found, because Ireland was never considered to be part of the La Tène culture. The Irish copied the La Tène style, but the Iron Age Irish didn't descend from Gauls.

    A paper in the compendium suggesting something less than mass movements of people.
    http://www.academia.edu/3716151/Evid..._Bibele_Italy_
    I don't see your point. It only takes a small percentage of the population to be mobile to settle new lands. You can't argue that Americans don't descend from Europeans because only a tiny fraction of Europeans migrated to America at any point in history.
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    It's an interesting dilemma working with migration or diffusional culture. The sources Angela provided prelude to a more cultural diffusion then a migration of people. According to the study isotopes taken from iron age graves during the migration period show a high degree of localization, compared to earlier isotopes taken of Bronze age cultures. The game pieces may have been set genetically during the Bronze Age, and raiding along peripheral boundaries may have moved cultural ideas and technology. Folk movements were probably not the norm, until a high degree of commonality occurred through cultural diffusion of a specific area. First came cultural diffusion, then followed by migration. This seems common sense. I would not feel comfortable living in Saudi Arabia, but Germany would be more acceptable as an American.

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    The map is very questionable, and showing only Hallstatt and La Tene cultures expansion may let think all Celtic cultures derive from these ones.
    In the "Interesting facts about the Celts", there are some mistakes and some interpretations which are not the most commonly accepted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's too bad. The archaeological will have changed tremendously. Did Hallstatt start in Spain or in Russia according to the latest data ?


    I checked the paper, but there is nothing that contradicts my map. The "influence" in Liguria is minimal. I didn't even include Ireland on the map, despite the wealth of La Tène style artefacts found, because Ireland was never considered to be part of the La Tène culture. The Irish copied the La Tène style, but the Iron Age Irish didn't descend from Gauls.



    I don't see your point. It only takes a small percentage of the population to be mobile to settle new lands. You can't argue that Americans don't descend from Europeans because only a tiny fraction of Europeans migrated to America at any point in history.
    I'm sure that you don't mean to imply that ten years’ worth of new information from archaeology , whether through the identification of new sites, further discoveries at old sites or the use of more advanced technology, including strontium isotope analysis or genetic analysis, shouldn’t be included in any review of these matters, whether or not they support any one particular model.

    On balance, I still think that the Celti paper and other papers in the compendium would support my interpretation that the La Tene and earlier Hallstatt influence in eastern Liguria is not significantly different from that in other areas of Italy that *are* included in the map. I found the paper which deals with the changes made to the statue stele to be particularly interesting. We may have to agree to disagree about this one.


    As for descent from Gauls, that's another discussion altogether. The people of Liguria have been described as "Celt-Ligurians" for a reason, although I think the term "Gallic-Ligurians" might be more appropriate. In any event, I don't think anyone knows how many "Gauls" actually moved into Liguria from the direction of France, or when precisely it happened, or whether they were substantially different genetically from the "Ligurians" already inhabiting the area. If I had to speculate, I would say that the people in both areas were a combination of Paleolithic, Neolithic, and Bronze Age peoples.

    I don’t believe that is at all the conclusion that should be drawn, or that was drawn, for that matter, in the Vitali paper. The researchers are looking at the samples in the context of the material culture and burial customs found at each site to determine how many of the people are *local* versus how many of them are migrants from other areas. In their words, “ In Negringen, no observable changes occurred during the use of the cemetery, while in Monte Bibele new burial customs appear, which point to transalpine contacts. If the Celtic objects were introduced by newcomers, this should be revealed by the strontium isotope analysis.” What they found is that about 20% of the people buried in Monte Bibele were non local.

    Also, the researchers found that “In Monte Bibele, two warriors changed their residency during childhood (graves 35 and 107) and three have Srisotope ratios within the local range (graves 42, 59 and 151).Overall, warriors do not seem to be more often of non-local origin than males buried without weaponry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    The map is very questionable, and showing only Hallstatt and La Tene cultures expansion may let think all Celtic cultures derive from these ones.
    In the "Interesting facts about the Celts", there are some mistakes and some interpretations which are not the most commonly accepted.
    If you could be led to believe that all Celtic cultures could be derived from Hallstatt or La Tène then you have absolutely no knowledge of European prehistory. Quite ridiculous actually. It would be like saying that all Germanic people descend from the Franks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If you could be led to believe that all Celtic cultures could be derived from Hallstatt or La Tène then you have absolutely no knowledge of European prehistory. Quite ridiculous actually. It would be like saying that all Germanic people descend from the Franks.
    I agree with you. The big difference with your example is that it has long been thought that the expansion of the Celts was consistent with the expansion of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures. There has never been obviously such thought about Germanic people and the Franks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm sure that you don't mean to imply that ten years’ worth of new information from archaeology , whether through the identification of new sites, further discoveries at old sites or the use of more advanced technology, including strontium isotope analysis or genetic analysis, shouldn’t be included in any review of these matters, whether or not they support any one particular model.

    On balance, I still think that the Celti paper and other papers in the compendium would support my interpretation that the La Tene and earlier Hallstatt influence in eastern Liguria is not significantly different from that in other areas of Italy that *are* included in the map. I found the paper which deals with the changes made to the statue stele to be particularly interesting. We may have to agree to disagree about this one.


    As for descent from Gauls, that's another discussion altogether. The people of Liguria have been described as "Celt-Ligurians" for a reason, although I think the term "Gallic-Ligurians" might be more appropriate. In any event, I don't think anyone knows how many "Gauls" actually moved into Liguria from the direction of France, or when precisely it happened, or whether they were substantially different genetically from the "Ligurians" already inhabiting the area. If I had to speculate, I would say that the people in both areas were a combination of Paleolithic, Neolithic, and Bronze Age peoples.

    I don’t believe that is at all the conclusion that should be drawn, or that was drawn, for that matter, in the Vitali paper. The researchers are looking at the samples in the context of the material culture and burial customs found at each site to determine how many of the people are *local* versus how many of them are migrants from other areas. In their words, “ In Negringen, no observable changes occurred during the use of the cemetery, while in Monte Bibele new burial customs appear, which point to transalpine contacts. If the Celtic objects were introduced by newcomers, this should be revealed by the strontium isotope analysis.” What they found is that about 20% of the people buried in Monte Bibele were non local.

    Also, the researchers found that “In Monte Bibele, two warriors changed their residency during childhood (graves 35 and 107) and three have Srisotope ratios within the local range (graves 42, 59 and 151).Overall, warriors do not seem to be more often of non-local origin than males buried without weaponry.
    well said

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    well said

    Can you read Italian?
    I should hope so. Writing it absolutely perfectly after all these years is another story. I also don't want to speak with anyone from the Accademia della Crusca , but then, most Italians of my acquaintance would rather get a root canal without novocaine than speak with a member of the academy.

    For those who do read Italian, this is one of the articles from that compendium which I found interesting but to which I didn't provide a link. As this particular one is not very technical, I think that something like google translate would probably work well.

    http://www.statuestele.org/ing/123/1/oggetti.htm

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ebAmerican View Post
    It's an interesting dilemma working with migration or diffusional culture. The sources Angela provided prelude to a more cultural diffusion then a migration of people. According to the study isotopes taken from iron age graves during the migration period show a high degree of localization, compared to earlier isotopes taken of Bronze age cultures. The game pieces may have been set genetically during the Bronze Age, and raiding along peripheral boundaries may have moved cultural ideas and technology. Folk movements were probably not the norm, until a high degree of commonality occurred through cultural diffusion of a specific area. First came cultural diffusion, then followed by migration. This seems common sense. I would not feel comfortable living in Saudi Arabia, but Germany would be more acceptable as an American.
    cultural contamination preceding immigration??? I think History gave us a very few examples of your theory... could you illustrate more, at ancient and new periods??? at least aminimum of power conquest predates the settlings or...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    cultural contamination preceding immigration??? I think History gave us a very few examples of your theory... could you illustrate more, at ancient and new periods??? at least aminimum of power conquest predates the settlings or...?
    Cultural diffusion before immigration is common. Can be mentioneddiffusion of Greek goods in the south of Gaul in the VIIth century before theinstallation of the Greeks in Massalia, and diffusion of Roman goods before theconquest of the Transalpine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    Cultural diffusion before immigration is common. Can be mentioneddiffusion of Greek goods in the south of Gaul in the VIIth century before theinstallation of the Greeks in Massalia, and diffusion of Roman goods before theconquest of the Transalpine.
    Greek, Roman and Celtic gods were all part of a larger Indo-European pantheon, which readily accepted foreign deities (even non-IE ones like Egyptian ones). That doesn't really count as cultural diffusion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Greek, Roman and Celtic gods were all part of a larger Indo-European pantheon, which readily accepted foreign deities (even non-IE ones like Egyptian ones). That doesn't really count as cultural diffusion.
    I didn't mention gods but goods (?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    Cultural diffusion before immigration is common. Can be mentioneddiffusion of Greek goods in the south of Gaul in the VIIth century before theinstallation of the Greeks in Massalia, and diffusion of Roman goods before theconquest of the Transalpine.
    I did not explain correctly my meanings: I spoke about diverse life horizons culture and not about sharing some trade stuff uniquely - evidently, if a trade is easy with a foreign region it can lead to conquest plans... but goods are not a complete cultural change, in my way of seeing things
    thanks for answer, have a good sunday evening

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