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Thread: The Indo-European migrations to Armenia

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    Post The Indo-European migrations to Armenia

    Eastern Anatolia has played a major role in the development of the Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age. It is also one of the most complex region for population geneticists to disentangle due to its high level of genetic diversity.

    In this thread I would like to propose an answer to the question: When did the Armenian branch of Indo-European languages arrive in Armenia, and who brought it (what haplogroups and subclades) ?

    Armenia has sometimes been claimed as the urheimat of the Proto-Indo-European speakers. This could be regarded as partially correct if R1b-M269 originate there before migrating to the North Caucasus and the Pontic Steppe. IMHO, the PIE language only truly came into existence in the steppes, as a hybrid of the languages of R1b and R1a people. In any case, the Armenian branch of IE is not the root. It belongs to the satem branch associated with R1a people. The only problem is that Armenia has about 30% of R1b and only 5% of R1a. Furthermore, according to the Armenian DNA Project, Armenian R1a is split in half between East European Z282 and Indo-Iranian Z93. That presupposes that two separate migrations brought R1a to Armenia, one probably from Russia across the Caucasus, and the other via Iran (perhaps the Mitanni branch).

    Behind the 30% of R1b hides an even greater diversity of subclades. Unsurprisingly Armenia has very old subclades like R1b1* (P25) and R1b1a2* (M269), which would confirm it as a possible source of the steppe M269. However the bulk of R1b lineages (about 90% of them) belong to the Balkanic and Greco-Anatolian L23, including a few L584+ and L11+. From a linguistic point of view the IE language closest to Proto-Armenian appears to be Greek, although wit clear Indo-Iranian influences.

    The most likely scenario is that the ancient Armenians originated in the southern Balkans in the Bronze Age, as a L32 offshoot of R1b, then migrated across Anatolia. The language was later satemised due to the long influence of Indo-Iranian languages, for example during the Mitanni period (c. 1500-1200 BCE) and during the Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BCE) when the region was part of the Satrapy of Armenia (the first historical state to be called 'Armenia'), when R1a-Z93 was introduced to Armenia.

    The East European R1a-Z282 was probably brought by the Cimmerians, who are recorded to have settled around Lake Van in the Armenian Highland in the 8th century BCE.
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    That is convincing.
    According to Mallory the closest linguistic neighbours to Armenian are Phrygian, Thracian and Greek. The origin of the Armenian branch is therefore indeed to be found in the (southeastern) Balkans. I think they may have travelled from west to east over Anatolia slightly before Phrygian around 1200BC swept Hittite away (which was in Southern and eastern Anatolia replaced by Luwian-speakers, also Anatolian) or in the same wave as Phrygian, because Armenian contained borrowings from Anatolian (which Mallory says).
    So on linguistic grounds, there is a lot to say that Armenian came from the Balkans in the west to travel over Anatolia to the east not later than 1200BC.

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    did u say armenians have R1b L11*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sennevini View Post
    That is convincing.
    According to Mallory the closest linguistic neighbours to Armenian are Phrygian, Thracian and Greek. The origin of the Armenian branch is therefore indeed to be found in the (southeastern) Balkans. I think they may have travelled from west to east over Anatolia slightly before Phrygian around 1200BC swept Hittite away (which was in Southern and eastern Anatolia replaced by Luwian-speakers, also Anatolian) or in the same wave as Phrygian, because Armenian contained borrowings from Anatolian (which Mallory says).
    So on linguistic grounds, there is a lot to say that Armenian came from the Balkans in the west to travel over Anatolia to the east not later than 1200BC.
    Historically Brygians (Phrygians) moved from Balkans to minor Asia.

    Brygian language was isotones with Greek, and Greeks place it as a Thracian dialect.

    are mentioning the Armenian Hypothesis?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    did u say armenians have R1b L11*
    They are mainly R1b-L23xL51. L51 is one branch older/earlier than L11 so most Armenians are L11-.

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    belong to the Balkanic and Greco-Anatolian L23, including a few L584+ and L11+



    so at least soe but very few have l11 which is the father to Germanic R1b S21 and Italo Celtc R1b S116/P312. he did not menton any Itlo celtic or Germanic R1b so somehow they got the ancestral version. I have looked how R1b L* is spread out it s only in western europe mainly France and south Germany. This suprises me i was also suprised when maciamo says that R1b l23 is southeast european and spread to the mid east even though i am pretty sure from what i have seen it is more popular in the mid east and caucus, Which could mean it migrated to ether the steppes or southeast europe then to western europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    ... The most likely scenario is that the ancient Armenians originated in the southern Balkans in the Bronze Age, as a L32 offshoot of R1b, then migrated across Anatolia. The language was later satemised due to the long influence of Indo-Iranian languages, for example during the Mitanni period (c. 1500-1200 BCE) and during the Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BCE) when the region was part of the Satrapy of Armenia (the first historical state to be called 'Armenia'), when R1a-Z93 was introduced to Armenia. ...
    Our North Irish archaeologist blogger has proposed what he calls the "anti-clockwise" Circumpontic movement of R1b. This fits in nicely with part of the (what I would call counter-clockwise) movement being pre or proto Armenian (or some would say Hellenic pre-Armenian) move along the west side of the Black Sea south and then east across the Bosporous into Anatolia.

    The more interesting part of the the proposition is probably that the initiation of this comes from the relationship of NW/N Iran along the Caspian Sea up through the north side of the Caucasus Mountain divide. .... This would have all been well before the completion of the counter-clockwise movement ending up with an Armenian group on the south side of the Caucasus divide.

    This is very speculative, but good food for thought, particularly given the early branching of R1b pre-L23 from the Iranian Plateau.

    Please consider this depiction. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...k/default.aspx
    Only consider that some M269 moved up along the west side of the Caspian into the North Caucasus.

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    Maciamo, I like you theory regarding the origin of Satemization.
    I was reading an article about the impact agriculturalism may have had on the skeletal and dental features of the face, and specifically tooth crowding and the overbite seen in a number peopel (a number of Indo-Euros have this)
    The authors propose that agricultural people in the Near East may have experienced a shrinkage of the lower jaw as a result of a diet of cereals, milk, liquids (beer) etc.
    I have wondered what impact this change may have had on the speech of Neolithic and Late Neolithic peoples.
    It would seem that the ancient husky laryngeals of early PIE may have slowly become more difficult to articulate in a smaller, more crowded mouth for either the original people OR for new populations learning the language. I suppose the loss would have occurred after or during satemization in this senario. Just a thought.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Hi All
    First I want to thank Maciamo and those who created this interesting community and knowledge base. Great job.

    Now about the Armenians. The probability that Armenians came from Balkans is very low not to say impossible.

    Genetic evidence.
    * Marc Haber et al. paper shows that Armenian cluster started to form aproximatively at 2500 BC ( between 3000 and 2000 BC ). And there is no any new admixture after 1200 BC. So Armenian language coming after 1200 BC is impossible.
    * If Armenians lived/passed in/trough Balkans so they must have some significant number of Balkan specific Y DNA. This is not the case. Yes there are some Balkanic Y dna but there are in marginal numbers. Also this Balkanic Y DNA can come from various episodes, starting from Neolithic to Middle Ages ( Byzantine period )
    * The most recent Haak et al. study shows that R1b-Z2103 was present in Yamna and there is no need to make big circle around to Black Sea to come to Armenia. There was much shorter route to Armenia from Yamna. The back migration of R1b trough Caucase.

    Archaeological evidence.
    * There is no any archaeological evidence of people moving from Anatolia to Armenian plateau after 1200 BC. In contrary there is an evidence of people moving from Armenian Plateau to ex-Hittite empire territories. An example are the so called Eastern Mushkis. It is logic because there was a power vacuum in Anatolia after Hittite collapse.
    * The so called Phrygian ceramics enters to Anatolia later at 1000 BC from Western side of Anatolia. So it's highly improbable that Phrygians were the destroyers of Hittite empire. And this new phrygian ceramics just stoped at the western side of Euphrate.
    * There is a very strong archaeological evidence that the most newcomers entered Armenia from the East not the West. There are two main routs from the east. The Kur valley and the Arax valley. Starting 2800 BC Kura-Arax culture started to collapse from a pressure from the Eastern side (Daghestan later they moved by Kur valley). The newcomers bring with them a culture that can be associated with early IE. Perhaps they moved also to Anatolia and founded the Anatolian languages
    * In contrast to Eastern Armenia The Kur-Arax culture continued to flourish in South Western Armenian Plateau, till 2000 BC. Later on this basis appears Hurrian cities.
    * After 2000 BC there is a new wave of influx. This newcomers founded the Trialeti culture that also have a strong IE traits. This culture can be associated with Proto-Armenians. The Trialeti culture then reaches his peak at 1700 BC ( at this period the Armenian language is on the same stage of development as the Mycenean Greek in Greece ) and later evolves to more homogenous Metsamor-Lchashen culture all over the Armenian Highlands. This process of homogenization ends at 1300 BC. Just in accordance with Marc Haber genetic admixture data.

    Linguistic evidence
    * Armenian language has a high number of Akkadian loanwords. This would be impossible if Armenian came after 1200 BC.
    * Armenian language also have some loanwords from Hattic, Hittite, Hurrian and even a few words from Sumerian that can not be explained by the Balcanic theory.
    * Armenian is a satem language has a phonetic system that is quite similar to Kartvelian languages.

    Summing all this facts We conclude that Armenian branch of IE entered Armenia from the East somewhere from 2500 BC to 1700 BC. The Balkanic theory is outdated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Hi All
    First I want to thank Maciamo and those who created this interesting community and knowledge base. Great job.

    Now about the Armenians. The probability that Armenians came from Balkans is very low not to say impossible.

    Genetic evidence.
    * Marc Haber et al. paper shows that Armenian cluster started to form aproximatively at 2500 BC ( between 3000 and 2000 BC ). And there is no any new admixture after 1200 BC. So Armenian language coming after 1200 BC is impossible.
    * If Armenians lived/passed in/trough Balkans so they must have some significant number of Balkan specific Y DNA. This is not the case. Yes there are some Balkanic Y dna but there are in marginal numbers. Also this Balkanic Y DNA can come from various episodes, starting from Neolithic to Middle Ages ( Byzantine period )
    * The most recent Haak et al. study shows that R1b-Z2103 was present in Yamna and there is no need to make big circle around to Black Sea to come to Armenia. There was much shorter route to Armenia from Yamna. The back migration of R1b trough Caucase.

    Archaeological evidence.
    * There is no any archaeological evidence of people moving from Anatolia to Armenian plateau after 1200 BC. In contrary there is an evidence of people moving from Armenian Plateau to ex-Hittite empire territories. An example are the so called Eastern Mushkis. It is logic because there was a power vacuum in Anatolia after Hittite collapse.
    * The so called Phrygian ceramics enters to Anatolia later at 1000 BC from Western side of Anatolia. So it's highly improbable that Phrygians were the destroyers of Hittite empire. And this new phrygian ceramics just stoped at the western side of Euphrate.
    * There is a very strong archaeological evidence that the most newcomers entered Armenia from the East not the West. There are two main routs from the east. The Kur valley and the Arax valley. Starting 2800 BC Kura-Arax culture started to collapse from a pressure from the Eastern side (Daghestan later they moved by Kur valley). The newcomers bring with them a culture that can be associated with early IE. Perhaps they moved also to Anatolia and founded the Anatolian languages
    * In contrast to Eastern Armenia The Kur-Arax culture continued to flourish in South Western Armenian Plateau, till 2000 BC. Later on this basis appears Hurrian cities.
    * After 2000 BC there is a new wave of influx. This newcomers founded the Trialeti culture that also have a strong IE traits. This culture can be associated with Proto-Armenians. The Trialeti culture then reaches his peak at 1700 BC ( at this period the Armenian language is on the same stage of development as the Mycenean Greek in Greece ) and later evolves to more homogenous Metsamor-Lchashen culture all over the Armenian Highlands. This process of homogenization ends at 1300 BC. Just in accordance with Marc Haber genetic admixture data.

    Linguistic evidence
    * Armenian language has a high number of Akkadian loanwords. This would be impossible if Armenian came after 1200 BC.
    * Armenian language also have some loanwords from Hattic, Hittite, Hurrian and even a few words from Sumerian that can not be explained by the Balcanic theory.
    * Armenian is a satem language has a phonetic system that is quite similar to Kartvelian languages.

    Summing all this facts We conclude that Armenian branch of IE entered Armenia from the East somewhere from 2500 BC to 1700 BC. The Balkanic theory is outdated.
    Very interesting compilation. Welcome to Eupedia Arame.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    Western and Cenral Armenians (WA and CA) of Turkey have more G2a and E1b1b1a1 than EA Eastern Armenians(Eastern Armenians are in modern Armenia)
    G2a and E1b1b1a1b are Balkanian markers

    WA CA and EA
    http://www.investigativegenetics.com...1/15/figure/F2

    http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/G.M201/permalink/10152753616688813/

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    Thanks LeBrok.

    Robert
    G2a is not a Balkanic marker. It is a early farmers marker. Please read about G2a haplogroup in Eupedia.com. The highest frequency of G2a is among Georgians, Abkhazians, Ossetians and other West Caucasic group.

    The E-V13 can be considered a Balkanic marker. But it is a relatively old SNP. So it's appearence in Armenia can be a result of another much older event. There was a study about it. hxxp:// arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAProject/Balkan%20poster_7b%20May.pdf

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It belongs to the satem branch associated with R1a people. The only problem is that Armenia has about 30% of R1b and only 5% of R1a
    On the other hand Tocharian was a Kentum language yet all Tocharian ancient DNA found so far is R1a (the Tarim mummies).

    Satemization took place more than once and independently from each other, so there does not have to be a genetic link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Thanks LeBrok.
    Robert
    G2a is not a Balkanic marker. It is a early farmers marker. Please read about G2a haplogroup in Eupedia.com. The highest frequency of G2a is among Georgians, Abkhazians, Ossetians and other West Caucasic group.
    The "Armenian" branches G2a could came from Balkans
    The "West Caucasian" branches G2a could came from central Europe

    TRB(Germany) -> Novosvobodnaya culture(West Caucasus)

    Globular Amphora(Poland) -> Kubano-Terskaya cuture(Central Caucasus)

    Cucuteni culture(west Ukraine, Romania) -> Darkveti culture(West Caucasus)

    etc
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/G.M201/permalink/10152753616688813/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    On the other hand Tocharian was a Kentum language yet all Tocharian ancient DNA found so far is R1a (the Tarim mummies).

    Satemization took place more than once and independently from each other, so there does not have to be a genetic link.
    No Pseudo-Tocharian ancient DNA is found .
    Pseudo-Tocharians Arsians and Koucheans are in Tarim Basin from 3 century AC
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/G.M201/permalink/10152753616688813/

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    Robert
    If You think that G2a came from Balkans and that all geneticians are wrong about it please open another thread about origins of G2a.
    I don't think it's the best place to discuss such a revolutionary idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Robert
    If You think that G2a came from Balkans and that all geneticians are wrong about it please open another thread about origins of G2a.
    I don't think it's the best place to discuss such a revolutionary idea.
    Who brought EEF(UHG+ENF) to Armenians from Balkans?
    The G2a and EEF(UHG+ENF) were dominant in Balkans when the civilisations appeared there.

    Armenians have two types of ENF
    1)ENF from southern Europe with a mix of UHG(UHG ~ Southern European hunters)
    2)ENF from Caspian territories with a mix of ANE(ANE ~ Siberian Dene-Caucasians)


    Armenian language is a mixed language parly Centum partly Satem


    The first mix among Armenians is from Centum Phrygians(ancestors of Phrygians brouth to Anatolia in ~1200-1600 BC biger Pigs from France with Wild Pig admixture, big European type Pigs appeared in eastern Anatolia in 1200BC, when the Phrygian tribes destroyed the Hittite empire)


    the second mix is from Satem people(Indo-Albanians)
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/G.M201/permalink/10152753616688813/

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    The G2a and EEF(UHG+ENF) were dominant in Balkans when the civilisations appeared there.
    Please open a special thread about G2a being autochtonous to Balkans. This is not the best place for such a big discussion.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Please open a special thread about G2a being autochtonous to Balkans. This is not the best place for such a big discussion.
    No
    I didn't say that G2a or E-V13 are autochtonous to Balkans(both possibly are from Syria),
    I am saying that Armenian branches of G2a and of E-V13 are mostly from Balkans.
    Thats why G2a and E-V13 are more among Western and Central Armenians

    For example Hg R1b-L11 is not autochtonous in Western Europe
    but in the Russia(and other eastern countries) the branches of Hg R1b-L11 are mostly from Western Europe

    Or another example Hg I1 is not autochtonous to Northern Europe but in eastern and southern countries the Hg I1 is mostly from Northern Europe


    Also you can see in Ysearch that Armenian branches of G2a and E-V13 are mostly matching Europeans
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/G.M201/permalink/10152753616688813/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Hi All
    First I want to thank Maciamo and those who created this interesting community and knowledge base. Great job.

    Now about the Armenians. The probability that Armenians came from Balkans is very low not to say impossible.

    Genetic evidence.
    * Marc Haber et al. paper shows that Armenian cluster started to form aproximatively at 2500 BC ( between 3000 and 2000 BC ). And there is no any new admixture after 1200 BC. So Armenian language coming after 1200 BC is impossible.
    * If Armenians lived/passed in/trough Balkans so they must have some significant number of Balkan specific Y DNA. This is not the case. Yes there are some Balkanic Y dna but there are in marginal numbers. Also this Balkanic Y DNA can come from various episodes, starting from Neolithic to Middle Ages ( Byzantine period )
    * The most recent Haak et al. study shows that R1b-Z2103 was present in Yamna and there is no need to make big circle around to Black Sea to come to Armenia. There was much shorter route to Armenia from Yamna. The back migration of R1b trough Caucase.

    Archaeological evidence.
    * There is no any archaeological evidence of people moving from Anatolia to Armenian plateau after 1200 BC. In contrary there is an evidence of people moving from Armenian Plateau to ex-Hittite empire territories. An example are the so called Eastern Mushkis. It is logic because there was a power vacuum in Anatolia after Hittite collapse.
    * The so called Phrygian ceramics enters to Anatolia later at 1000 BC from Western side of Anatolia. So it's highly improbable that Phrygians were the destroyers of Hittite empire. And this new phrygian ceramics just stoped at the western side of Euphrate.
    * There is a very strong archaeological evidence that the most newcomers entered Armenia from the East not the West. There are two main routs from the east. The Kur valley and the Arax valley. Starting 2800 BC Kura-Arax culture started to collapse from a pressure from the Eastern side (Daghestan later they moved by Kur valley). The newcomers bring with them a culture that can be associated with early IE. Perhaps they moved also to Anatolia and founded the Anatolian languages
    * In contrast to Eastern Armenia The Kur-Arax culture continued to flourish in South Western Armenian Plateau, till 2000 BC. Later on this basis appears Hurrian cities.
    * After 2000 BC there is a new wave of influx. This newcomers founded the Trialeti culture that also have a strong IE traits. This culture can be associated with Proto-Armenians. The Trialeti culture then reaches his peak at 1700 BC ( at this period the Armenian language is on the same stage of development as the Mycenean Greek in Greece ) and later evolves to more homogenous Metsamor-Lchashen culture all over the Armenian Highlands. This process of homogenization ends at 1300 BC. Just in accordance with Marc Haber genetic admixture data.

    Linguistic evidence
    * Armenian language has a high number of Akkadian loanwords. This would be impossible if Armenian came after 1200 BC.
    * Armenian language also have some loanwords from Hattic, Hittite, Hurrian and even a few words from Sumerian that can not be explained by the Balcanic theory.
    * Armenian is a satem language has a phonetic system that is quite similar to Kartvelian languages.

    Summing all this facts We conclude that Armenian branch of IE entered Armenia from the East somewhere from 2500 BC to 1700 BC. The Balkanic theory is outdated.
    We discussed but it remained incomplete.

    I don't appreciate Balkan hypothesis. For me Anatolian hypothesis, but and Kurgan also, have evidence, maybe mix between them gives us better picture, they are not mutually exclusive, it needs more knowledge and evidence to adjust. But another hypothesis makes sense: Armenian, (and we discussed about it).

    Now, there is another confirmation.

    Haak, Lazaridis, Patterson et al. (even 39 authors!) contributed new knowledge in their paper: Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

    And they argue that Balkan hypothesis is not plausible according their research.

    But for Armenian hypothesis they argue:

    (Quote)
    "The Armenian plauteu hypothesis gains in plausibility by the fact that we have discovered evidence of admixture in the ancestry of Yamnaya steppe pastoralists, including gene flow from a population of Near Eastern ancestry for which Armenians today appear to be a reasonable surrogate (SI4, SI7, SI9). However, the question of what languages were spoken by the "Eastern European hunter-gatherers" and the southern, Armenian-like, ancestral population remains open. Examining ancient DNA from the Caucasus and Near East may be able to provide further insight about the dynamics of the interaction between these regions and steppe. Our results show that southern populations diluted the ancestry of populations from the steppe, but also that ancestry related to Ancient North Eurasians forms a major ancestral component of the populations of the present-day Caucasus. Thus, both south-north and north-south genetic influence across the Caucasus is plausible."
    (End of quote)

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    Some Armenians can have Balkan-Anatolian orgin (Phygian) but those could have been a minority with the majority being 'indigenous'. That's what I suspect personally. And it doesn't matter what the orginal 'PIE homeland' was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Some Armenians can have Balkan-Anatolian orgin (Phygian) but those could have been a minority with the majority being 'indigenous'. That's what I suspect personally. And it doesn't matter what the orginal 'PIE homeland' was.
    the Armenian theory is a linguistic theory that connects Germanic Thracian and Armenian,
    the other theory is the Greco-Aryan connecting Greek with Aryan (Homer's Greek),
    Armenian origin is urartu mountain,
    The Brygian connectivity enter nowdays, is a modern possibility that connects
    there is a strange and remarkable connectivity of Greek and Armenian also, but not a theory developed,
    words like καρα (οστον κεφαλης) κτλ κτλ
    ΠΑΣΑ ΕΠΙΣΤΗΜΗ ΧΩΡΙΖΟΜΕΝΗ ΑΡΕΤΗΣ
    ΠΑΝΟΥΡΓΙΑ ΟΥ ΣΟΦΙΑ ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ
    ΑΡΙΣΤΟΤΕΛΗΣ

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