I2a2b, R1a L664, and R1b S21 from 3,000ybp German Urnfield culture

Fire Haired

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From 13 Y DNA samples in Lichstenstein cave in central Germany apart of Urnfield culture. 10 had I2a2b which decends from Paloithic Cro magnon central European I2a2, two had R1a1a1 (X Slavic R1a M458, X Balto Slavic Z280), and one had Germanic R1b S21/U106. The R1b S21/U106 was reported as plain R1b the R1a1a1 was reported as plain R1a1a. Their haplotypes are online and i but them in Y DNA haplogroup predictors the R1b was predicted as 100% sure Germanic R1b S21/U106. The R1a was predicted to be at least in the Indo European R1a1a1 family. It was put down as x to the main Slavic and Balto Slavic branches R1a M458 and Z280 which both decend from Corded ware culture. There is another R1a branch from Corded ware culture which is Scandnavian R1a Z284 but this predictor did not test for it plus it is almost only found in Scandinavia. There is a Indo European R1a branch found in western Europe R1a1a1a L664 which is probably what both the R1a's were but they still may have been Scandnavian R1a Z284. I X'ed out it's possibilty to be Indo Iranian R1a Z93 since that is from what i know never been found in Europe today.

Here is a branch of R1a family tree.
R1a-tree.gif



Urnfield culture started around the alps 3,500-3,300ybp. It is a late bronze age culture orignally was Italo Celtic and is what spread R1b S28. I already made a thread kind of explaing how Germanic Italo Celtic speakers with R1b L51- R1b L11 invaded western Europe starting 5,000ybp orignally they came from the steppes like all Indo Europeans. The Germanic and Italo Celtic speakers split about 4,500ybp into R1b S116/P312 with Italo Celts starting Unetice culture in central Europe 4,300ybp. The Germanic's split into R1b S21/U106 starting Nordic bronze age culture in south Scandinavia 4,000ybp.

Here is a link to my thread were i explain it alot more
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe

Urnfield culture extended pretty far. I think some people who technically apart of Urnfield culture were non Italo Celts who adopted the culture, traded alot, or were conquered.

Here is a map of the expansions of Urnfield culture
240px-UrnfieldCulture.jpg


Urnfield culture gave birth to Hallstat Celtic culture which would later dominate really most of Europe and it gave birth to Italic Villnoeaven culture. The Hallstat Celtic culture was born around the Alps just like Urnfield and defintley were direct descendants of the first Urnfield people so they would have been dominated by R1b S28/U152. The Hallstat Celts were very war like and were able to conquer tons of Europe but their culture also spread by trade. It is true that R1b S28/U152 matches eastward expansions by Hallstat/La Tene Galatiens but not all of R1b S28/U152 matches were Hallstat and La Tene cultures dominated. Like in Iberia so i bet Urnfield spread in a similar way most of the time they conquered but they also spread their culture by trade since they had better weapons and alot of other technology compared to other Europeans.

Germanic R1b S21/U106 probably started in central Germany or around the Netherlands 4,000ybp. Then it migrated more north. Germanic speakers were only in far northern Europe until around 700bc when they started to make migration more south into central Germany, but since proto Germanic langauges and R1b S21/U106 started in central Germany. Why couldn't there still have been people in central Germany who spoke a related language to Germanic, or spoke a Germanic language, and had R1b S21/U106. So there could have been Germanic speaking people with R1b S21.U106 who were technicalley apart of Italo Celtic Urnfield culture because of trade or they were conquered.

3,000 year old Y DNA from Lichtenstein cave in central Germany totally supports that. There was one R1b sample they reported it as R1b but i but it's haplotype which is online into Y DNA haplogroup predictors and it was predicted 100% sure to be R1b S21/U106 not R1b S28/U152 which would be excepted.
 
There is no proof that the R1b sample was S21. The STR values do have the DYS390=23, which is often found in S21, but not exclusively. It could be P312, L11, L51, L23, or even V88 (although that last one is very unlikely).
 
There is no proof that the R1b sample was S21. The STR values do have the DYS390=23, which is often found in S21, but not exclusively. It could be P312, L11, L51, L23, or even V88 (although that last one is very unlikely).

I guess ur right i should not say it as a fact. But it seems like S21 is more likely than the others. Since it is from Urnfield culture the other possibility i can think of is R1b S28/U152 or other R1b S116.
 
It may be the case that the Urnfield Culture was a ruling class of I2a2 Southeastern European men. They brought their strange and foreign ritual of cremation and cults with them into Central Europe, in addition to improvements in smithing from the NE Mediterranean. The bronze-age collapse in their native land may have initiated the movement. Perhaps the origin of the Urnfield upper class shared a common recent ancestry with Dacians and Getaes.

They imposed themselves on the decidedly Indo-European Tumulus Culture that had formed in the Contact Zone between the R1b proto-Celto-Italics and the R1a proto-Slavic Corded Ware folks. The probably-centum language of the Urnfield intruders merged with the mostly-centum Tumulus language forming early proto-Germanic.

During the Hallstat period, the Urnfield caste was destroyed with Iron Age Celtic re-expansion within Central Europe.

There is no reason to think that the later Hallstat period was the sole catalyst for spreading the Celtic language. It simply does not work and it will never work. R1a is not native anywhere in the Atlantic Fringe, at all. It would be found in some quantity somewhere or anywhere if Celtic or Italic languages had spread with Hallstat or the preceeding Urnfield. Hallstat probably reclaimed the Celtic speaking areas of Central Europe and became a second layer superstrate on early Germanic in the North.

Proto-Italo-Celtic entered Southern Iberia from an unknown location in 2900 B.C., the point where comparative linguists have traditionally put its divergence. The only people on planet Earth who can account for its introduction into Western Europe and its islands is the Bell Beaker folk. No other people can ever be crammed into the timeperiod to make it work, not even a little.
 
It may be the case that the Urnfield Culture was a ruling class of I2a2 Southeastern European men. They brought their strange and foreign ritual of cremation and cults with them into Central Europe, in addition to improvements in smithing from the NE Mediterranean. The bronze-age collapse in their native land may have initiated the movement. Perhaps the origin of the Urnfield upper class shared a common recent ancestry with Dacians and Getaes.

I dont think there is nearlly enouh evidence to say this. Were these Y DNA samples even upper class. Plus I2a2 is most popular in central Europe not southeastern i have no idea ere u got that from. It probably began in central Europe well at least I2a2a. Plus even upper callses dont stay pure deifntley for 100's or 1,000's of years. Plus upper calls have more offspring like king solomon in the bible who had about 1,000 women. So that is probably why R1b L11 is almost 50% in modern western Europeans not I2a2.

They imposed themselves on the decidedly Indo-European Tumulus Culture that had formed in the Contact Zone between the R1b proto-Celto-Italics and the R1a proto-Slavic Corded Ware folks. The probably-centum language of the Urnfield intruders merged with the mostly-centum Tumulus language forming early proto-Germanic.

that does not sound like good evidence. Tumlus was not just Indo European they were Italo Celtc Celtic languages would have already formed i dont know about Italic. Germanic Nordic bronze age culture already began 3,500ybp Tumlus began 3,600ybp if Germanic languages in any way decend from it we would see mainly R1b S116 not R1b S21 in modern Germanic speakers.


Proto-Italo-Celtic entered Southern Iberia from an unknown location in 2900 B.C., the point where comparative linguists have traditionally put its divergence. The only people on planet Earth who can account for its introduction into Western Europe and its islands is the Bell Beaker folk. No other people can ever be crammed into the timeperiod to make it work, not even a little.

wait what evidence do u have of this. Why would they be in soutern Iberia. R1b L51 deifntley comes from a migration out of the east that went further west into Europe southern Iberia is one of the last spots. If that is true why is just about all Iberian R1b inder Italo Celtic P312 and a subclade Df29. While in France and central Europe u find many P312 subclades. Italo Celtic R1b S16 and GErmanic R1b S21 go back to the same father R1b L11. So they would have had at first the same migration route why would proto GErman speakers be in northern Germany and Denmark 3,500-4,000ybp while Italo Celtic in southern Iberia 4,900ybp that does not make sense.
 
I dont think there is nearlly enouh evidence to say this. Were these Y DNA samples even upper class. Plus I2a2 is most popular in central Europe not southeastern i have no idea ere u got that from. It probably began in central Europe well at least I2a2a. Plus even upper callses dont stay pure deifntley for 100's or 1,000's of years. Plus upper calls have more offspring like king solomon in the bible who had about 1,000 women. So that is probably why R1b L11 is almost 50% in modern western Europeans not I2a2.



that does not sound like good evidence. Tumlus was not just Indo European they were Italo Celtc Celtic languages would have already formed i dont know about Italic. Germanic Nordic bronze age culture already began 3,500ybp Tumlus began 3,600ybp if Germanic languages in any way decend from it we would see mainly R1b S116 not R1b S21 in modern Germanic speakers.




wait what evidence do u have of this. Why would they be in soutern Iberia. R1b L51 deifntley comes from a migration out of the east that went further west into Europe southern Iberia is one of the last spots. If that is true why is just about all Iberian R1b inder Italo Celtic P312 and a subclade Df29. While in France and central Europe u find many P312 subclades. Italo Celtic R1b S16 and GErmanic R1b S21 go back to the same father R1b L11. So they would have had at first the same migration route why would proto GErman speakers be in northern Germany and Denmark 3,500-4,000ybp while Italo Celtic in southern Iberia 4,900ybp that does not make sense.

I2a2 originates in Southeastern Europe, at least that is where diversity would point to. I don't really think it matters where or not the Urnfield remains were from an upper or lower class burial. What does matter is that the Urnfield Culture was a new cultural development that would suggest a migration of people.
That migration was clearly from Southeastern Europe, it involved the resettlement of people who had a great deal of I2a2 and it possibly originated in the area where the later Dacians, Getaes and Thracians lived.

It should also be noted that similarities (or confusion) were several times noted by ancient authors between the Dacians, Getaes and Germans, but I will concede ancient authors have a sketchy track record.

You brought up the point of R1b L51 having an East European origin. That may be correct as I would imagine many folks in Upper Greece, Moesia, Thracia, etc. as being some mix of I2a2 and R1b (possibly something like L51?) Possibly the Urnfield migrants consisted of a SE Euro variety of R1b and I2a2. That makes perfect sense.

I would assume R1b in Europe has several origins. One may have entered Central Europe from Southeast Europe during the Urnfield period along with I2a2. Contemporaneous to that, settlements of Sea Peoples from the Greek archipelageo probably penetrated several places along the Southern Coasts.
An earlier maritime expansion probably took place during Beaker period Iberia which may account for the Atlantic Modal Haplotype. Even older expansions of R1b took place in North Africa and the Middle East.
 
I2a2 originates in Southeastern Europe, at least that is where diversity would point to. I don't really think it matters where or not the Urnfield remains were from an upper or lower class burial. What does matter is that the Urnfield Culture was a new cultural development that would suggest a migration of people.
That migration was clearly from Southeastern Europe, it involved the resettlement of people who had a great deal of I2a2 and it possibly originated in the area where the later Dacians, Getaes and Thracians lived.

I am pretty sure you're confusing ISOGG I2a2 (L35+) with FTDNA I2a2 (M423+, known as I2a1b in ISOGG). The Lichtenstein Cave samples were definitely ISOGG I2a2b L35+ L38+. See De Beule.

Although the highest diversity area of I2-M423 is debatable and its highest frequency area is in Southeastern Europe, I2-L35 has neither particularly high frequency nor diversity in that region; it's much more Central European, with its two subclades being the often-Germanic M223+ and the often-Celtic L38+.
 
I am pretty sure you're confusing ISOGG I2a2 (L35+) with FTDNA I2a2 (M423+, known as I2a1b in ISOGG). The Lichtenstein Cave samples were definitely ISOGG I2a2b L35+ L38+. See De Beule.

Although the highest diversity area of I2-M423 is debatable and its highest frequency area is in Southeastern Europe, I2-L35 has neither particularly high frequency nor diversity in that region; it's much more Central European, with its two subclades being the often-Germanic M223+ and the often-Celtic L38+.


Although the highest diversity area of I2-M423 is debatable and its highest frequency area is in Southeastern Europe, I2-L35 has neither particularly high frequency nor diversity in that region; it's much more Central European, with its two subclades being the often-Germanic M223+ and the often-Celtic L38+.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for clearing that up, Sparkey. Actually, I meant I2a2b. On a related note, I meant U106/S21 not L51 on the R1b co-identity stemming from Southeastern Europe... I thought FH made that clear, don't know where I got the L51.

I think a single cultural identity migrated into Central Europe during the Urnfield phase. Obviously, whatever their number, they eventually amalgamated with the surrounding population. But I think it is clear that there was another intrusion. After all, I doubt people would suddenly start experimenting with burials.
 
Germanic Nordic bronze age culture already began 3,500ybp Tumlus began 3,600ybp if Germanic languages in any way decend from it we would see mainly R1b S116 not R1b S21 in modern Germanic speakers.

wait what evidence do u have of this. Why would they be in soutern Iberia. R1b L51 deifntley comes from a migration out of the east that went further west into Europe southern Iberia is one of the last spots. If that is true why is just about all Iberian R1b inder Italo Celtic P312 and a subclade Df29. While in France and central Europe u find many P312 subclades. Italo Celtic R1b S16 and GErmanic R1b S21 go back to the same father R1b L11. So they would have had at first the same migration route why would proto GErman speakers be in northern Germany and Denmark 3,500-4,000ybp while Italo Celtic in southern Iberia 4,900ybp that does not make sense.

You make a good point about the Nordic Bronze Age. The problem is that no one can conclusively say that Nordic Bronze Age people spoke pre-proto-Germanic. It could also be very well that Germanic was spoken much further south in the Jastorf cultural area and influenced the Nordic Bronze Age people.
The Schleswig-Hollstein tribes (Ingvaeones) were the most influential of all the Germanic peoples who lived on fertile land and had fertile households. In the modern age, it was usually the Ingvaeones doing the influencing from the penninsula, not the hillbillies.
The identity of the Nordic Bronze Age people is interesting. I would bet they were more likely a high frequency combination of R1a Corded Ware descended folks and R1b U152 descended folks who were later amalgamated with the later, northern Urnfield descended cultures (I2a2 & S21).
In any case, the Litchenstein graves show a connection with later Dacia and Moseia via I2a2(b) and S21 (IMO), which in connection with other attributes of the Urnfield culture (metal technology, cults and cremation) seems to fit.
 
Just something for the time-line;

Jastorf
was an Iron-age culture so it could not have influenced the Nordic-Bronze-age that preceded it;
Jastorf (Iron-age) was in turn influenced by the Hallstatt and LaTene Iron-age of the Danube/Alpine zone;


Sophie Bergerbrant - Bronze Age Identities (2007)
Kristiansen (1998:68ff) argues that the Nordic Bronze Age culture was composed of elements of general European origin, such as tumulus barrows and later urn burials, and components of genuine Nordic origin, e.g. the lurs and female belt ornaments.

Apart from the Burial rites (Tumulus/Urns) also the Weaponry [Griffzungenschwerter] is identical to
the Urnfield culture complex;

Urnfield Griffzungenschwerter in the Nordic-Bronze-age ~1200 BC;
ve50.png



The Nordic-Bronze-age did not greatly diff. from the Urnfield culture complex;
Which is also manifested by the continued Hallstatt and LaTene influence in Jastorf during the Iron-age;

All of this needs to be viewed of course within the broad archaic Indo-European context of
proto-Keltic and proto-Germanic;

Lichtenstein cave was part of the Urnfield culture complex - Unstrut-Gruppe;
 
The men of the Urnfield culture would have been predominantly R1b (probably R-S21 variety) with a I2b or I1a small substratum.
 
The Urnfield culture was succeeded by Halstatt and La tene was spawned out of that..., It's difficult to say; some may have been subgroups of P312 as well
 
The culture in it's self coincides well with the spread of hg R-S21 (u106), which is the oldest, Germanic variety of R1b.
 
The Urnfield culture was succeeded by Halstatt and La tene was spawned out of that..., It's difficult to say; some may have been subgroups of P312 as well

That is true;
Hallstatt A-B was Bronze-age Urnfield culture [proto-Keltic]
Hallstatt C-D was Iron-age Hallstatt-proper [Keltic] and succeeded by LaTene Iron-age [Keltic/Gallic]
 
This is probably it, they where not a "sub-class" of royal I2a2's lolll, they where predominantly R1b, of the S21 variety , and the succeeding cultures probably brought the birth of P312 and it's subclades. As for Urnfield itself, predominantly R-S21 with I2b and I1a substratums (maybe some rare I-M26 or other forms of rare I2 as well at low %.).
 
The culture in it's self coincides well with the spread of hg R-S21 (u106), which is the oldest, Germanic variety of R1b.

I'd rather see the Urnfield culture as the first expansion of R1b-U152. Urnfield evolves into Hallstatt and La Tène, not into Germanic cultures. Actually Urnfield was also the time when Italic tribes penetrated into the Italian peninsula. Again U152.
 
Thanks for clearing that up, Sparkey. Actually, I meant I2a2b.

In any case, the Litchenstein graves show a connection with later Dacia and Moseia via I2a2(b) and S21 (IMO), which in connection with other attributes of the Urnfield culture (metal technology, cults and cremation) seems to fit.

OK, I don't get it. You think I2-L38 has a Dacian and Moesian connection? Do you have a specific challenge to De Beule's network analysis of eastern L38 samples that would indicate a migration the other direction? I2-L38 really isn't very common in the region you're proposing, and although De Beule's analysis is the only one I've seen, it doesn't support high diversity there either.

And that's not to even go into R1b-S21. That's eastern too now?
 
Maciamo is correct in the fact that Urnfield culture of the Danube river (central europe) did spill over across the alps into Italy. But there was probably much less influence overall from the Eastern Germany/Czech republic area and a lot more from The France/Switzerland regions. I'm sure overall though that certain migrations did come from Bavaria or norther up (Lombards for example).
 
In terms of u152, it peaks in Cuneo at 50-60% of men I believe (extreme north-western Italy.) In Brescia (extreme north-central Italy, 50% of men are u152. The next highest frequencies are scattered across Tuscany (40% across the entire region.)
 
You make a good point about the Nordic Bronze Age. The problem is that no one can conclusively say that Nordic Bronze Age people spoke pre-proto-Germanic. It could also be very well that Germanic was spoken much further south in the Jastorf cultural area and influenced the Nordic Bronze Age people.
The Schleswig-Hollstein tribes (Ingvaeones) were the most influential of all the Germanic peoples who lived on fertile land and had fertile households. In the modern age, it was usually the Ingvaeones doing the influencing from the penninsula, not the hillbillies.
The identity of the Nordic Bronze Age people is interesting. I would bet they were more likely a high frequency combination of R1a Corded Ware descended folks and R1b U152 descended folks who were later amalgamated with the later, northern Urnfield descended cultures (I2a2 & S21).
In any case, the Litchenstein graves show a connection with later Dacia and Moseia via I2a2(b) and S21 (IMO), which in connection with other attributes of the Urnfield culture (metal technology, cults and cremation) seems to fit.

Here is a burial from the Nordic bronze age as u can see it is a Kurgen. Which has been used very accurately to trace Indo European migrations. It is a sign they were Indo Europeans and Germanic speakers.
wg-nordic-bronze-age-4.jpg


I cant find it now but when i was looking at 3,500 year old Nordic bronze age burials. I didnt know they were early German speakers at first but automaticalley i could tell they wee Indo Europeans. Just by the way they buried themselves with bronze weapons, tarten looking clothing. The ones i saw were buried in beds just like what Ibn falden said the Rus vikings did. The Burial traditions of Rus vikings is nearly identical to what La Tene Gauls did in central Europe i know this because of Roman writing and their remains. So i would guess buring them in a bed with their weapons there was alot of other stuff that is hard to explain is maybe traditional for Germanic Italo Celts.

Also R1b S21, I2a2, and red hair in Scandinavia has very similar distributions because they were all spread by Grmanic speakers into Scandinavia starting with Nordic bronze age culture.
Haplogroup-I2b.gif
red_hair_map_europe.jpg
Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif


Also German languages spread out of northern Germany, Netherlands, and south Scandnavia starting around 700bc. Obvisouly German languages orignated around that area probably in the bronze age. We can keep debating on weither or not Nordic bronze age was proto Germanic speaking or not. But it seems pretty obvisous to me it is. The idea R1b L51 spread in west Europe starting in southwest Iberia does not match up with the area indo europeans began how Indo European cultures spread n west europe and were R1b L51 ancestors originated.
 

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