I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[gyms]

Early Medieval aDNA from Poland

Out of 14, three are analyzed until now (21,42%).
Every is of different subclade.

Kow22 - G2a2b-CTS11324 (7,14% out of 14)
Kow45 - I2a2-L35 (7,14% out of 14)
Kow55 - I1a2a1a1d1a1a1b1 (7,14% out of 14)

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon/page51

 

[Garrick]

They could have as the goths via historians are stated to have absorbed the sarmatians and the bastanae into gothic society.

so , If as I have already stated the bastanae ( not all ) went from south ukraine to moesia/macedonia around ~300BC and then later the bastane that remained where absorbed into gothic society, then we could have found

south-ukraine later became slavic

then we could have found this I-CTS10228 origins

Sile, on another respectable forum on genetic genealogy, the forum members also consider that the Bastarnae tribe was the bearer of the I-CTS10228.

I can give link, discussion is very interesting, but it is probably against rules of forum, it is becoming more accepted on the Internet.

But honor to you for insight.

 

[MOESAN]

@Gyms

after a look to religious lexicon of Romanian, I found an overwhelming % of words of latin origin; some seem slavic, but often slavic borrowed to greek -
from WIKIpedia
A statistical analysis sorting Romanian words by etymological source carried out by Macrea (1961)^[92] based on the DLRM^[93] (49,649 words) showed the following makeup:^[94]

• 43% recent Romance loans (mainly French: 38.42%)
• 20% inherited Latin
• 11.5% Slavic, including Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian, Ukrainian, and Russian
• 4% Turkish
• 2.40% Modern Greek
• 2.17% Hungarian
• 2% German

If the analysis is restricted to a core vocabulary of 2,500 frequent, semantically rich and productive words, then the Latin inheritance comes first, followed by Romance and classical Latin neologisms, whereas the Slavic borrowings come third. The Romanian lexicon is similar by 77% with Italian, 75% with French, 74% with Sardinian, 73% with Catalan, 72% with Portuguese and Rheto-Romance, 71% with Spanish.^[95]

Romanian according to word origin[96][97]
Romance		75.57%
Slavic		14.7%
Germanic (German-based influence, English loanwords)		2.54%
Greek		1.7%
Others		5.49%

some more acute study when excluding slavic loanwords of well delimited origin (so recent: serbo-croat, bulgarian etc...) reduce the slavic superstratum to about 9% and a bit ...
so the origin of slavic words in Romanian is far to be only due to religion influences, IMO.

 

[Sile]

Papadimitrou
You are right, Venedi/Venedae/Wends in area Vistula/Baltic sea is not defintely accepted who they were, but scientists today don't consider Venedi as Germans, some Roman scholars thought that they are Germans but they did not investigate.

If you want I will send you scientific papers about Venedi in the message.

My intention with Ptolomy map was geographical location, which tribes were in area when I-CTS10228 emerged and expand after bottleneck, and especially Bastarnae (German tribe) is the best candidate.

If Venedi were not Slavs it is even almost much less possible that this haplogroup could appear among the Slavs, because of teritory and time.

Please, we can open new thread about Venedi and discuss if you want, I agree it is very interesting topic, origin of Slavs is obscure, but do you agree, it would be much wide for this thread.

Venedi where west-baltic people belonging to west-balic cairns culture and also belonging to flat-bed grave culture.
they lived on the coast of the baltic sea and nogat river
They where absorbed into gothic society ( as the goths lived next to them on both sides of the vistula river )
Their remnants over time became known as the warmians - an old-prussian baltic tribe

they are an insignificant tribe

 

[Sile]

R1b and J2b2-L283 almost empty in South Slavs. Broken link. You are among the Serbian spies in this thread. Downrated.

Albanians are the main descendants of the Illyrians as proven, no matter the fantasy projections by the Slavs and others in this thread.

Btw, the only Thracians found so far were E-V13.

South Slavs are Slavic. Albanians are Illyrians. The End.

Funny thing, the only neg reps I have got has been from Slavs who can't accept reality and instead they start to copy-paste things from Albanians.

No neg reps will change my Truthbombs.

90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western and Central European culture of Early Iron Age Europe from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture. It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.^[1]

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

 

[Fatherland]

90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western and Central European culture of Early Iron Age Europe from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture. It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.^[1]

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

Reported for spamming. I already nullified your arguments in my previous post.

 

[Garrick]

Venedi where west-baltic people belonging to west-balic cairns culture and also belonging to flat-bed grave culture.
they lived on the coast of the baltic sea and nogat river
They where absorbed into gothic society ( as the goths lived next to them on both sides of the vistula river )
Their remnants over time became known as the warmians - an old-prussian baltic tribe

they are an insignificant tribe

Yes, even it is not important if they were Slavs or Balts or any other population, they weren't in area which is interesting for us and they are not important for the topic. Of course many opinions exist, and some scholars think their territory was greater but since it has not proven they are Slavs we will treat as Venedi and nothing else.

What is important we see Bastarnae were in Thracian (Getae-Dacian) territory and Sarmatian too, and they could transfer I-CTS10228 to them. Amount (one part) I-CTS10229 among Romanian today is probably due to mix Bastarnae with Getae-Dacians. And this haplogroup transferred to the south to Balkans towards Southern Thracian tribes.

Logic says if all I-CTS10228 carriers (plus all R1a carriers) who entered in territory which is present-days Romania were Slavs, today Romania would be Slavic country. It would be very large migrant population. However, I-CTS10228 already existed in territory of present day Romania when Slavs arrived. Certainly Slavs could transfer this haplogroup to people who lived in territory of present days Romania in 6th century too, but for our discussion it is important that this haplogroup existed among Getae-Dacians and Southern Thracian tribes in the Balkans before Slavs.

 

[Sile]

Reported for spamming. I already nullified your arguments in my previous post.

i do not see where you answered information from scholars ......where is this answer?

just remember the Illyrians and Pre-illyrians where always from the north , beyond the balkans . they moved south after the creation of halstatt culture. this is due to the celts moving against them from further north and west

more info below

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=-yd1huHoXJwC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=hallstatt+with+celtic+and+illyrian&source=bl&ots=o_-kJEcJs6&sig=ul0MgN1bAtqLThRzJwPdehzKoQ8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8yovU8dnUAhUBVbwKHcGeCuwQ6AEIPTAH#v=onepage&q=hallstatt%20with%20celtic%20and%20illyrian&f=false


https://books.google.com.au/books?id=6E7XAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=hallstatt+with+celtic+and+illyrian&source=bl&ots=wp2QIrQgw0&sig=vy0pM4P0rHWKP-7y_3hej98ys-4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8yovU8dnUAhUBVbwKHcGeCuwQ6AEIUzAL#v=onepage&q=hallstatt%20with%20celtic%20and%20illyrian&f=false


https://books.google.com.au/books?id=LTbc1GIAwcIC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=hallstatt+with+celtic+and+illyrian&source=bl&ots=_v1-UA2rRU&sig=jaHnooGkhDLFJdm5oXFO8GOlKfk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8yovU8dnUAhUBVbwKHcGeCuwQ6AEIVjAM#v=onepage&q=hallstatt%20with%20celtic%20and%20illyrian&f=false


you need to check out the roman province of Epirus Nova ( which is the roman name for albania ) and see if you can find anything

 

[Sile]

Yes, even it is not important if they were Slavs or Balts or any other population, they weren't in area which is interesting for us and they are not important for the topic. Of course many opinions exist, and some scholars think their territory was greater but since it has not proven they are Slavs we will treat as Venedi and nothing else.

What is important we see Bastarnae were in Thracian (Getae-Dacian) territory and Sarmatian too, and they could transfer I-CTS10228 to them. Amount (one part) I-CTS10229 among Romanian today is probably due to mix Bastarnae with Getae-Dacians. And this haplogroup transferred to the south to Balkans towards Southern Thracian tribes.

Logic says if all I-CTS10228 carriers (plus all R1a carriers) who entered in territory which is present-days Romania were Slavs, today Romania would be Slavic country. It would be very large migrant population. However, I-CTS10228 already existed in territory of present day Romania when Slavs arrived. Certainly Slavs could transfer this haplogroup to people who lived in territory of present days Romania in 6th century too, but for our discussion it is important that this haplogroup existed among Getae-Dacians and Southern Thracian tribes in the Balkans before Slavs.

Thats the possibility I see as the most logical in regards to that marker.

 

[Garrick]

@sile, are you making multiple lines of blank spaces between every half a sentence just to fill the thread and make unreadable?

Maybe in the hope that people will just read the title from 2013 and leave it at that?

And by the way, you really do care much about making I2a-slav seem more obscure than it is, dont you?

The mysterious thracian haplogroup which somehow slipped into all places which slavs have settled or raided throughout history.

Move on, there is nothing wrong in being wrong sometimes. You learn, and you move on.

I almost believed this fairytale too a couple if years ago when haplogroups were still at an infant stage.

But come on, why would someone who still believes this in 2017 even be at a forum discussing genetics?
Still believing it clearly indicates to me that you are hardheadedly figting the facts which are right in front of you. Who does that unless the facts compromise their motives?

So imo, you are either pushing these speculations through because you have some personal interest, or because you havent read anything about the history and genetics of the balkans and europe.

And Personally i think you guys are wasting your time. You are clearly not commenting to convince me or Trojet or any other of the active posters on this thread, but to trick new members into believing your fairytales.
But listen why you are wasting your time: Anyone who believes in your propaganda does clearly not know much about history and genes. And therefore their opinion will never matter in the academic world.
So for your own sake, just stop. You are not achieving anything. While you are speculating, the biggest slavic country, russia, is working intensively on pan-slavic theories. And as it seems, the western scholars agree with the russians in this aspect.
No serious academics support your claim, neither slavs nor non-slavs.

None of the people you are trying to trick will be able to do anything against the mighty powers like western scholars and russian scholars.

I on the other hand, i am not trying to trick people like you, because most people with a little knowlegde on history know that your claims are absurd, so they dont need me to teach them.
I do it because it makes me angry to see these things and i cant help myself but react.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

There's always a choice, if you think wasting of time, there is no purpose to participate.

 

[Fustan]

90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western and Central European culture of Early Iron Age Europe from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture. It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.^[1]

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

If you knew anything about Albanians you would know that many Albanian clans descend from regions in modern Bosnia as well. You might also want to keep in mind that Shkodra was the capital of Illyrians, and that southern Illyricum was considered where the real Illyrians lived, as the north mixed with other groups such as celts.

Also reported for spam as Fatherland had already pointed out his arguments, I just wanted to expand on them.

 

[Sile]

If you knew anything about Albanians you would know that many Albanian clans descend from regions in modern Bosnia as well. You might also want to keep in mind that Shkodra was the capital of Illyrians, and that southern Illyricum was considered where the real Illyrians lived, as the north mixed with other groups such as celts.

Also reported for spam as Fatherland had already pointed out his arguments, I just wanted to expand on them.

all I know about albanians is that they have no information except made up folktales initiated by nationalists

Are the links I placed all fabricated!

 

[Balkanite]

all I know about albanians is that they have no information except made up folktales initiated by nationalists

Are the links I placed all fabricated!

Isnt what your saying racism?

Your are kind of saying that a whole people are lying nationalists?

And besides, you are also very obviously decieving people here by saying albanians do not bring any facts.
I can quote at least 50 posts just in this thread alone where Trojet fatherland fustan and myself bring up undisputable facts regarding genetics and/or history.

It surprises me that such discriminating generalizations and deceit is allowed.

 

[doku]

Nobody spoke Albanian in Bosnian. It's nonsense. If these clans originated from Bosnia, would they have a megalithic burial culture known as STEČCI https://static.klix.ba/media/images/vijesti/160820046.12_mn.jpg?v=1. These monuments do not exist in Albania and anywhere else except in Bosnia Herzegovina,Dalmatia, northern Montenegro and western Serbia. They date from the 12th to the 15th centuries and all the inscriptions are on the ancient archaic Slavic language and the Bosnian cyrillic.

 

[Trojet]

Nobody spoke Albanian in Bosnian. It's nonsense. If these clans originated from Bosnia, would they have a megalithic burial culture known as STEČCI https://static.klix.ba/media/images/vijesti/160820046.12_mn.jpg?v=1. These monuments do not exist in Albania and anywhere else except in Bosnia Herzegovina,Dalmatia, northern Montenegro and western Serbia. They date from the 12th to the 15th centuries and all the inscriptions are on the ancient archaic Slavic language and the Bosnian cyrillic.

As Fustan pointed out, some Albanian tribes do have a tradition of migrating from the highlands of Herzegovina into North Albania. Some of these tribes are turning up J2b2a-L283. This HG was recently found in Bronze Age Dalmatia. (I2a-Slav was nowhere to be found in these ancient remains, BTW).

Furthermore, Albanian language is mentioned to have been spoken in the area at 1285 AD. Here is a direct quote that even Wikipedia uses:

A Ragusan document dating to 1285 states: "I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language" (Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca).

So if we go further back in time and use some logic, when the Slavs settled in the area (where I2a-Slav reaches a very high frequency), it's not far fetched to assume that some indigenous Illyrian tribes would have naturally fled south into present day Albania.

 

[doku]

Wou, and this is a proof of the thousand-year existence of the Illyrian - Albanian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, who in the meantime did not leave any material or linguistic proof of their existence. Just to remind you that sout slavish language is very friendly to other languages so one of the most important Sout Slavic words is the word "mater" (mother) Vlach origin.

 

[Fustan]

Wou, and this is a proof of the thousand-year existence of the Illyrian - Albanian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, who in the meantime did not leave any material or linguistic proof of their existence. Just to remind you that sout slavish language is very friendly to other languages so one of the most important Sout Slavic words is the word "mater" (mother) Vlach origin.

Why do people here talk about something which they clearly don't know about. You know that Catholics who came from Herzegovina had a tatoo tradition, for example, as did the Herzegovinian Catholics. Similar styles and patterns which have been thought of as pagan in origin.

 

[Trojet]

Dalmatians are not albanians

Wrong. I never said Dalmatians are Albanians. Although I suspect Albanians have some Dalmatian ancestry. Besides, here is the meaning of the word Dalmatia:
"The name Dalmatia derives from the name of the Dalmatae an Illyrian tribe who inhabited the area. Which is connected with the Illyrian word delme meaning "sheep" (Albanian: delme)." Look here under NAME: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia

you know also skanderberg noted himself as an epirote , not an albanian

Wrong. Skanderbeg never said he wasn't Albanian.

I do not care about CTS10228 and it is not albanian as you say it is.

Wrong again. All this time I've been saying I-CTS10228 is Slav (I2a-Slav), and yet you're claiming I said it was "Albanian".

R1a ans R1b come form the same line of K2a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)
I thought you knew about this

Amazing! Wrong for the fourth time in the same post (it has to be a record, lol). I never said R1a and R1b are not related, and I obviously know they share an ancestor from some 20,000 years ago. What I said was they are not the same thing. All this can be seen here.

LMAO, is this what you've been doing for the last 6 years at Eupedia.

 

[Trojet]

90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western and Central European culture of Early Iron Age Europe from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture. It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.^[1]

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

what is I2a-slav...........is there I2a-german?, or I2a-british etc etc................its a stupid name ( i2a-slav)

90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western and Central European culture of Early Iron Age Europe from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture. It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.^[1]

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

Basically the same exact thing in two different posts, LOL!
Proof that Sile is a Copy-Paste machine, recycling the same anti-Albanian propaganda at Eupedia for the last 6 years.

 

[Angela]

You're all spamming the same ideas over and over again, but it hits a new low when you copy and paste. That means you, Sile. You're skating on thin ice already.

Bring the temperature down or people are going to start getting infractions for provocative, disruptive posts.

Am I clear?