Auvergne genetic history

Tell me, do you believe the Veneti to in fact be related to the Carni as is stated, or do you believe the legends of them having been Paphlagonian Turks which could explain region E3b and J2 highs and lower R-S28 levels? Do you believe a Greek substratum extended from Massilia to Genoa? I doubt the last suggestion as Massilia was an isolated Ionian settlment; the Ligures may have been a Celti-Etruscan cultural fusion if they were not purely celts, as they extended well into northern Italy. In terms of ancient Greeks, Nestor is the hero of those who founded Pisa and metapontum. It would seem that Motya, solus, thermae egesta, thermae himerae, Eryx, leontini, cyane Fons, Reggio Calabria, lacinium, campi Flegrei, Aventinus and the entire eastern coasts of Corsica and Sardinia were inhabited by Greeks that venerated Hercules. Although in Lilybaeum, drepanum and Aegesta the Trojan Aeneas was venerated. Misenum, Cumae, lacinium, laurentum and caieta are places were Aeneas was also worshipped. Not to mention Palinurus, Portus Veneris and Castrum Minervae in Apulia where Trojan Aeneas was venerated as well. Ulysses was worshipped in Thrinacia and Oddysseum (southern Sicily) Aetna and at various sites on the eastern Sicilian coast. The Latins, Ausones, Circe and formia regions of Italy , Avernus, sirenusae, leucosia, dracontis heroum, polite heroum, calypsus, charybdes were all places/people that worshipped Ulixes. Iason/Colchi from Georgia obviously (as are the Ionian Greeks J-M67) he was worshipped at Iunonis Argivae Fanum and at Telamon and Argous Portus (Elba island) in Etruscan territory. Also the Eridanus river near Ravenna and the Istria region worshipped Iason. The Veneti inhabited Patavium and owed their origins to Antenor. Much of the Adriatic coast from Adria to southern Marche were generators to Diomedes. The people of Venafrum, Benevento, canusium Venusia, siponto, gargano also venerated Diomedes. Sybarite/thurii, petelia, macalla, crimisa and chone was were Philoctetes was venerated. At Selinus, Minoa, haluntium, Scylla, engvium, and Camici, Minos and Daedalus were venerated, indicating Minoan Cretan origin for these particular Sicilians.
 
Tell me, do you believe the Veneti to in fact be related to the Carni as is stated, or do you believe the legends of them having been Paphlagonian Turks which could explain region E3b and J2 highs and lower R-S28 levels? Do you believe a Greek substratum extended from Massilia to Genoa? I doubt the last suggestion as Massilia was an isolated Ionian settlment; the Ligures may have been a Celti-Etruscan cultural fusion if they were not purely celts, as they extended well into northern Italy. In terms of ancient Greeks, Nestor is the hero of those who founded Pisa and metapontum. It would seem that Motya, solus, thermae egesta, thermae himerae, Eryx, leontini, cyane Fons, Reggio Calabria, lacinium, campi Flegrei, Aventinus and the entire eastern coasts of Corsica and Sardinia were inhabited by Greeks that venerated Hercules. Although in Lilybaeum, drepanum and Aegesta the Trojan Aeneas was venerated. Misenum, Cumae, lacinium, laurentum and caieta are places were Aeneas was also worshipped. Not to mention Palinurus, Portus Veneris and Castrum Minervae in Apulia where Trojan Aeneas was venerated as well. Ulysses was worshipped in Thrinacia and Oddysseum (southern Sicily) Aetna and at various sites on the eastern Sicilian coast. The Latins, Ausones, Circe and formia regions of Italy , Avernus, sirenusae, leucosia, dracontis heroum, polite heroum, calypsus, charybdes were all places/people that worshipped Ulixes. Iason/Colchi from Georgia obviously (as are the Ionian Greeks J-M67) he was worshipped at Iunonis Argivae Fanum and at Telamon and Argous Portus (Elba island) in Etruscan territory. Also the Eridanus river near Ravenna and the Istria region worshipped Iason. The Veneti inhabited Patavium and owed their origins to Antenor. Much of the Adriatic coast from Adria to southern Marche were generators to Diomedes. The people of Venafrum, Benevento, canusium Venusia, siponto, gargano also venerated Diomedes. Sybarite/thurii, petelia, macalla, crimisa and chone was were Philoctetes was venerated. At Selinus, Minoa, haluntium, Scylla, engvium, and Camici, Minos and Daedalus were venerated, indicating Minoan Cretan origin for these particular Sicilians.

-Veneti are not related to carni in ancient times, became related when the carni became friulian people. The friulian has ancient gascon/west gallic vocabulary from tthe carni.
-Veneti , if they came from anatolia, did not come paphlagonia, more likely SW anatolia or bithynia area .
- The liburnians controlled the coast at the head of the adriatic, they worshipped diomedes, the veneti just came/invaded in the middle of the liburnians and adopted thier gods, same as the veneti adopted the raetic goddess reitia .
 
Adriatic Veneti were paphlagonian Turks descended from Antenor or Syracusan Greek colonizers.
 
There may have been a prior Celtic Veneti in the region due to the Celtic Carni presence but I doubt it. Minos and Daedalus of Crete were well-worshipped across Sicily and Aeneas of Troy was worshipped in western Sicily and in southern Apulia. Not to mention Iason's link with Elba island and Telamon, as we know the Etruscans Caucasus origins. Also those who worshipped Diomedes (most of them across southern Italy the sites I named) are probably Pelasgian as well.
 
Strabo - Book V/I
Concerning the Heneti there are two traditions, some saying that they are a colony of those Kelts of the same name who dwell by the ocean. Others say that they are descended from the Veneti of Paphlagonia, who took refuge here with Antenor after the Trojan war;

I am not entirely sure;
But i am more inclined to believe that the Veneti of the Adriatic are ultimately the Eneti of Paphlagonia;
Keeping in mind that the Eneti of Paphlagonia were not Pelasgians - They were Indo-Europeans;
Both Adriatic Venetic as well as the Anatolian branch are centum Indo-European languages;
And keeping in mind that Adriatic Venetic is of a diff. branch than Italic or Keltic - but with similarities;

Strabo - Book XII/III
And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea. But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,

Livius - Book I/I
The combined force of Enetians and Trojans defeated the Euganei, who dwelt between the sea and the Alps and occupied their land.

I am not entirely sure; But it is plausible;
 
Strabo - Book V/I
Concerning the Heneti there are two traditions, some saying that they are a colony of those Kelts of the same name who dwell by the ocean. Others say that they are descended from the Veneti of Paphlagonia, who took refuge here with Antenor after the Trojan war;

I am not entirely sure;
But i am more inclined to believe that the Veneti of the Adriatic are ultimately the Eneti of Paphlagonia;
Keeping in mind that the Eneti of Paphlagonia were not Pelasgians - They were Indo-Europeans;
Both Adriatic Venetic as well as the Anatolian branch are centum Indo-European languages;
And keeping in mind that Adriatic Venetic is of a diff. branch than Italic or Keltic - but with similarities;

Strabo - Book XII/III
And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea. But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eneti
Above is old name of Enete which is modern Samsun city.....it is not in ancient paphlagonia. There is no homer story that the eneti went to troy........read what he states.
Homer confused the story of Jason and the argonauts, when jason escaped with medea he stopped and rested at enete

-piero states the ancient veneti spoke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaic_language and that was paphlogonia, but its not enete people, they are kaskas people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskas

- and cimmerians only entered the balkans in 700Bc, elisa perego has via archeology already label veneti in the adriatic from 1150BC.........450 years missing here with the cimmerians strabo story


Livius - Book I/I
The combined force of Enetians and Trojans defeated the Euganei, who dwelt between the sea and the Alps and occupied their land.

I am not entirely sure; But it is plausible;

yes and its true and the euganei eventually became veneti......which is why in Italy, when the say the tre venezia's ( three venice's) , its Venezia-Euganei, Venezia-Trentina and Venezia-Giulia....all are veneti
 
@ Sile

As i said i am not very sure about it either;
not really sure at all;

Strabo presents us with 3 options;
1. Colony from Armorica Kelts
2. An expedition of Cimmerians
3. Paphlagonian army at Troja with Pylaemenes and Antenor;

All of them are not very convincing;
Option 3. is largely (if not completely) based on Mythology and Strabo even gives the only reason why people believed in this scenario;

Strabo - V/I
they give as a proof of this the attention these people bestow on rearing horses; which, though now entirely abandoned, was formerly in great esteem among them, resulting from the ancient rage for breeding mules, which Homer thus mentions: 'From the Eneti for forest mules renowned'

This is the only reason or "proof" for the Mythological scenario;
And its truly 'Rearing Horses and Breeding Mules' not very convincing;

Fact remains the Veneti are Indo-Europeans - and whether they came directly from the Urheimat or via Anatolia (with Trojans or with Cimmerians) is actually absolutely secondary;
 
Something has to explain the 18% E3b (all E-V13) in the Vicenza region though, not Ro mention the 15% J2.
 
Hello everyone. This is my first reply, so please bear with me. I got started in DNA search while doing the history of my family. Lucky for me kathryn Keats-Rohan can trace my family. Supposedly I am a descendant of the Rorgonides of France and I am descended from the House of Dol. According to my haleogroup I am H6a1b1. Most of the DNA shows Northern and Southern Europe. I am still trying to figure this stuff out and feel absolutely dumb. If you have any info I sure would like to hear about it.
 
My genographic project mtdna H results:

This wave of migration into western Europe marked the appearance and spread of what archaeologists call the Aurignacian culture, a culture distinguished by significant innovations in methods of manufacturing tools, standardization of tools, and use of a broader set of tool types, such as end-scrapers for preparing animal skins and tools for woodworking.


Around 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, colder temperatures and a drier global climate locked much of the world’s fresh water at the polar ice caps, making living conditions near impossible for much of the northern hemisphere. Early Europeans retreated to the warmer climates of the Iberian Peninsula, Italy, and the Balkans, where they waited out the cold spell. Their population sizes were drastically reduced, and much of the genetic diversity that had previously existed in Europe was lost.


Beginning about 15,000 years ago—after the ice sheets had begun their retreat—humans moved north again and recolonized western Europe. By far the most frequent mitochondrial lineage carried by these expanding groups was haplogroup H. Because of the population growth that quickly followed this expansion, your haplogroup now dominates the European female landscape.


Today haplogroup H comprises 40 to 60 percent of the gene pool of most European populations. In Rome and Athens, for example, the frequency of H is around 40 percent of the entire population, and it exhibits similar frequencies throughout western Europe. Moving eastward the frequencies of H gradually decreases, clearly illustrating the migratory path these settlers followed as they left the Iberian Peninsula after the ice sheets had receded. Haplogroup H is found at around 25 percent in Turkey and around 20 percent in the Caucasus Mountains.


While haplogroup H is considered the Western European lineage due to its high frequency there, it is also found much further east. Today it comprises around 20 percent of southwest Asian lineages, about 15 percent of people living in Central Asia, and around five percent in northern Asia.


Importantly, the age of haplogroup H lineages differs quite substantially between those seen in the West compared with those found in the East. In Europe its age is estimated at 10,000 to 15,000 years old, and while H made it into Europe substantially earlier (30,000 years ago), reduced population sizes resulting from the glacial maximum significantly reduced its diversity there, and thus its estimated age. In Central and East Asia, however, its age is estimated at around 30,000 years old, meaning your lineage made it into those areas during some of the earlier migrations out of the Near East.


Haplogroup H is a great example of the effect that population dynamics such as bottleneck events, founder effect, genetic drift, and rapid population growth, have on the genetic diversity of resulting populations.


Later migrations, such as those during the Neolithic Revolution and those triggered by the Bronze Age, brought additional groups containing different descendant branches of this line to Europe.


POINTS OF INTEREST:
"The highest percentage of this line in Europe is in Ireland, where it makes up 61 percent of the female population."

"Though lush today, France and much of Europe fell into a deep freeze that peaked 22,000 years ago. Haplogroup H survivors recolonized the continent when temperatures rose."

"From Italy to Scandinavia, Europeans show wide ethnic diversity, yet many are descended from the same small bands of ice age survivors who recolonized much of the continent."

"Haplogroup H is found in 40 to 60 percent of most European populations, modern descendants of ice age survivors and later migrations like the Neolithic Revolution."

NOTABLE PEOPLE:
"French queen Marie Antoinette and Russian Renaissance astronomer Nicholas Copernicus were members of this lineage."
 
My genographic project mtdna H results:

This wave of migration into western Europe marked the appearance and spread of what archaeologists call the Aurignacian culture, a culture distinguished by significant innovations in methods of manufacturing tools, standardization of tools, and use of a broader set of tool types, such as end-scrapers for preparing animal skins and tools for woodworking.


Around 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, colder temperatures and a drier global climate locked much of the world’s fresh water at the polar ice caps, making living conditions near impossible for much of the northern hemisphere. Early Europeans retreated to the warmer climates of the Iberian Peninsula, Italy, and the Balkans, where they waited out the cold spell. Their population sizes were drastically reduced, and much of the genetic diversity that had previously existed in Europe was lost.


Beginning about 15,000 years ago—after the ice sheets had begun their retreat—humans moved north again and recolonized western Europe. By far the most frequent mitochondrial lineage carried by these expanding groups was haplogroup H. Because of the population growth that quickly followed this expansion, your haplogroup now dominates the European female landscape.


Today haplogroup H comprises 40 to 60 percent of the gene pool of most European populations. In Rome and Athens, for example, the frequency of H is around 40 percent of the entire population, and it exhibits similar frequencies throughout western Europe. Moving eastward the frequencies of H gradually decreases, clearly illustrating the migratory path these settlers followed as they left the Iberian Peninsula after the ice sheets had receded. Haplogroup H is found at around 25 percent in Turkey and around 20 percent in the Caucasus Mountains.


While haplogroup H is considered the Western European lineage due to its high frequency there, it is also found much further east. Today it comprises around 20 percent of southwest Asian lineages, about 15 percent of people living in Central Asia, and around five percent in northern Asia.


Importantly, the age of haplogroup H lineages differs quite substantially between those seen in the West compared with those found in the East. In Europe its age is estimated at 10,000 to 15,000 years old, and while H made it into Europe substantially earlier (30,000 years ago), reduced population sizes resulting from the glacial maximum significantly reduced its diversity there, and thus its estimated age. In Central and East Asia, however, its age is estimated at around 30,000 years old, meaning your lineage made it into those areas during some of the earlier migrations out of the Near East.


Haplogroup H is a great example of the effect that population dynamics such as bottleneck events, founder effect, genetic drift, and rapid population growth, have on the genetic diversity of resulting populations.


NOTABLE PEOPLE:
"French queen Marie Antoinette and Russian Renaissance astronomer Nicholas Copernicus were members of this lineage."
I think it is plausible.

Except this:
...Russian Renaissance astronomer Nicholas Copernicus were members of this lineage.
 
"French queen Marie Antoinette and Renaissance astronomer Nicholas Copernicus were members of this lineage." - genographic project 2.0; he was Prussian (polish).
 
Trust me; they called the poles "Prussians" for a reason! R1a; think paternal origins and it becomes easy to see, as opposed to the Germans just nearby (although R1a is found at 20% or so across easternmost Germany, due to contact with poles). As for mtdna H in Poland, same as Hungary, Greece, Austria, Germany, Portugal, Latvia or Croatia and much of Europe (40-45% H on a national level). Mtdna h follows no ethnic/cultural patterns; it simply dominates in different countries ALL over Europe between 55-40%, it has a west-to-east gradient with highest frequencies in westernmost Europe (from where it would spread via Iberian ice age refugium after last ice age) and lower ones in the east, dropping to 35-25% once we reach the Moscovian plains of western Russia.
 
Trust me; they called the poles "Prussians" for a reason! R1a; think paternal origins and it becomes easy to see, as opposed to the Germans just nearby (although R1a is found at 20% or so across easternmost Germany, due to contact with poles). As for mtdna H in Poland, same as Hungary, Greece, Austria, Germany, Portugal, Latvia or Croatia and much of Europe (40-45% H on a national level). Mtdna h follows no ethnic/cultural patterns; it simply dominates in different countries ALL over Europe between 55-40%, it has a west-to-east gradient with highest frequencies in westernmost Europe (from where it would spread via Iberian ice age refugium after last ice age) and lower ones in the east, dropping to 35-25% once we reach the Moscovian plains of western Russia.

IIRC mr. Ken N stated 6 months ago that the Prussians and Pomeranians where a I2* ( or was it I1*) branch and had nearly zero R1a. in the prussian project thread by starkey IIRC it has N marker as well
 
Which means they had nothing to do with Russia considering they were Germanic, I always thought Prussians were Slavs in Poland from Russia.
 
Russian Renaissance astronomer Nicholas Copernicus were members of this lineage

Who ever told you Copernicus was Russian played a trick on you;
Copernicus was Polish (part German) native of Krakow - Kingdom of Poland;

Which means they had nothing to do with Russia considering they were Germanic, I always thought Prussians were Slavs in Poland from Russia.

Try Baltic
 
Which means they had nothing to do with Russia considering they were Germanic, I always thought Prussians were Slavs in Poland from Russia.
Prussians were Balts. They were related to Lithuanians. Later they were germanized by Teutonic Knights.
 
Their seat of power was once Berlin so it goes well with a Germanic connection....if someone could find evidence showing them as Baltic I would appreciate it, as I don't know much about them.ntey seem to have been Germanic in a sea of Slavs and let's to the north (Lithuanian types).
 

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