Black Irish come from R1b Iranians?

[adamo]

The distribution of haplogroups in Sardinia appears strongly heterogenous. In particular the frequency of G-M201 is significantly higher in the north, and the haplogroup I-M26 is more easily represented in the central-eastern area, characterized by a reduced presence of haplogroup R-M269. The sub-haplogroup I-M26 appears heterogeneously distributed in relation to the ancestral collocation of surnames. The majority of male surnames carrying this haplogroup seem to have arisen in the central-eastern area of the island, characterized by a reduced presence of R-M269. The island's native population retreated to this area during Phoenician, Carthaginian and roman occupations. Their subsequent isolation and genetic drift allowed an increase of I-M26 frequency, which on the north of the island has a frequency significantly lower than what is expected. The isolation of the central-eastern (archaic) area of the island could also explain the distribution of other haplogroups. R-M269 has a low frequency in the central area and a high prevalence in the northern area of the island, which also suggests that it arrived via Corsica or the European continent after the earlier diffusion of I-M26 in Sardinia.

 

[adamo]

About half of R1b on Sardinia (10 of 20%) is U152. Oops; looks like it's time to get off my case, Wrong-Berdeen at this point it's you that should feel embarrassed, not me.

 

[Aberdeen]

About half of R1b on Sardinia (10 of 20%) is U152. Oops; looks like it's time to get off my case, Wrong-Berdeen at this point it's you that should feel embarrassed, not me.

Well, my grasp of genetics probably isn't any better than yours, but I think that if about half the R1b on Sardinia is a type that's common in Italy and about half of it is of a type that's more common in the Balkans and the Middle East, that confirms my idea that there were two main sources of R1b in Sardinia, one that may have been brought by the Romans when they occupied Sardinia and one that may have entered Sardinia from the Mediterranean at some point. I still don't see any reason to think that R1b was brought to Sardinia by Bronze Age Indo-Europeans. But I'm out of my depth when it comes to talking about subclades being related to specific population movements. I'm just dubious about R1b having been brought to Sardinia during the Bronze Age when it appears that the Sardinians spoke non-IE languages prior to the Roman occupation. And yes, if G, J2 and E1b1b represent Neolithic lineages, I do think that a total of about 30% of Sardinian YDNA for these three haplotypes shows that there was a significant input of DNA into Sardinia during the Neolithic, especially when you consider that YDNA is more likely to have been replaced by invaders such as Romans than mtDNA would be.

 

[adamo]

Lol. Don't even compare us you don't know squat. R1b peaks in northern Sardinia, indicative that much of it arrived from Corsica and southern France before that (R-S28 represents half of R1b in Sardinia, about 10% of the island's men.) the other 10% is an amalgamy of Greek R1b-M269* and a few odd P312* here and there; represents a very small fraction of Sardinians.

 

[Sile]

Lol. Don't even compare us you don't know squat. R1b peaks in northern Sardinia, indicative that much of it arrived from Corsica and southern France before that (R-S28 represents half of R1b in Sardinia, about 10% of the island's men.) the other 10% is an amalgamy of Greek R1b-M269* and a few odd P312* here and there; represents a very small fraction of Sardinians.

@adamo

No Offence

But for awhile I have noticed a few terms in your writings which makes me think you live in an English speaking country, am I right............could it be Canada?

 

[adamo]

I can't tell u that lol, no offense taken

 

[Aberdeen]

Lol. Don't even compare us you don't know squat. R1b peaks in northern Sardinia, indicative that much of it arrived from Corsica and southern France before that (R-S28 represents half of R1b in Sardinia, about 10% of the island's men.) the other 10% is an amalgamy of Greek R1b-M269* and a few odd P312* here and there; represents a very small fraction of Sardinians.

If I was going to compare the two of us, I'd say that I try to analyse the facts I have to work with while you reprint stuff from Wikipedia without understanding it. But that's bye the bye.

Since about half the R1b in Sardinia is of a type found in the Balkans and Anatolia, how did it get to Sardinia? My guess is that it arrived by sea. I still think there's a good chance that Atlantic R1b arrived in Spain, Wales, Ireland, etc. as a result of the spread of seafaring Neolithic types that didn't speak Indo-European languages. However, I'm sure that we'll eventually have enough old Y DNA to be able to make a firm conclusion as to whether there's anything to this Neolithic seafaring R1b idea or whether the "R1b always = IE expansion" crowd will be proven right. As for the other subclade, it could have been brought to Sardinia from southern France by BB types in the late neolithic or copper age but the BB population numbers were probably small enough that they may not have left much of a genetic footprint. And the post BB culture seems to have been local in nature. I still think that the Romans are probably responsible for the presence of this subclade on Sardinia. They must have left some kind of genetic footprint.

But how does any of this relate to the original question? I'm not sure it does. Unless there's some data comparing modern day darker complexioned Irish with current Y DNA distribution, we can't be sure that there's any connection between R1b and any particular skin colouration.

 

[JQP4545]

Here is more evidence. I finding matches from Ireland who have mtDNA haplogroup W3a. They also show North Indian/Pakistani admixture on Eurogenes calculators, but are fully Irish and English on 23andMe. So there is some kind of distant connection between these two regions.

 

[Mars]

Total BS I get sick of hearing the Iberian origin of Irish or pre Celtic Irish. It is true that is the typical Irish from what I have seen look like that.

Me too... this old crappy theory is becoming boring.

 

[joeyc]

The butthurt among Iberians here is stronk.

It must be the 2-3% ssa admixture in them.

 

[Nobody1]

The butthurt among Iberians here is stronk.

It must be the 2-3% ssa admixture in them.

Or the 12.6% Mozabite admixture in connection to the 2.2% sub-Saharan admixture (Lazaridis et al 2013); Maybe its also the certain high African IBD sharing featured in Botigue et al 2013; Who knows but they def. need a scape-goat for whatever their probs. are either way; And mind you its not Iberians but Celt-Iberians por favor;

 

[mihaitzateo]

From what I remember Goths got as strong allies Sarmatians.
Now these Sarmatians were people that came from Iran,very possible that they were darker skinned,not as Indians or Africans,but darker than Europeans.
Maybe a part of these Sarmatians went to Scandinavia and settled there and later,they joined the Vikings raids in Ireland and maybe from these people some of the black Irish came.
Another source of darker people could be from native Sami/Siberian people,that mixed with Vikings and later went to raid in Ireland.
As for African admixture,I have not saw that kind of admixture in UK people,instead they have Gedrosia admixture,which is actually present at all Western &Northern Europeans (did not included Finns at Northern Europeans).

 

[Drac II]

The butthurt among Iberians here is stronk.

It must be the 2-3% ssa admixture in them.

More like the "butthurt" (as you say) of Italians like you and Nobody1 is strong, no wonder you keep trying to attack Iberians. It must be the 2-9.2% ssa in you, and then also all the Near Eastern admixture.

 

[Drac II]

Or the 12.6% Mozabite admixture in connection to the 2.2% sub-Saharan admixture (Lazaridis et al 2013); Maybe its also the certain high African IBD sharing featured in Botigue et al 2013; Who knows but they def. need a scape-goat for whatever their probs. are either way; And mind you its not Iberians but Celt-Iberians por favor;

Or the 9.2% sub-Saharan admixture in Italians (Brisighelli et al. 2012), or the close genetic relationship with Jews (Atzmon et al. 2010, Behar et al. 2010, Oster et al. 2013, Costa et al. 2013), or the high IBD sharing not only with Africans but as well as the even higher one with Middle Easterners in Boutique et al. 2013. Who knows, but def. you seem to need a escape-goat for whatever your complexes and issues are either way. And mind you it's not just Italians but Celto-Germano-Italics, per favore.

 

[joeyc]

More like the "butthurt" (as you say) of Italians like you and Nobody1 is strong, no wonder you keep trying to attack Iberians. It must be the 2-9.2% ssa in you, and then also all the Near Eastern admixture.

2-9.2% ssa in me??? That's new for me. My ancestry is from 2 areas of Italy (Friul and Campania) who score 0% SSA autosomally and have 0% of SSA mtdna.

Brisighelli et al. uses only 52 SNPs. Not very reliable. On the other hand Iberians are the only Europeans scoring SSA/North African on the admixture analysis of Lazaridis et al. and Botigue et al.

Mucho sensibilidad?

 

[Nobody1]

Or the 9.2% sub-Saharan admixture in Italians (Brisighelli et al. 2012),

Brisighelli 2012 also had a sub-Saharan admixture of 7.1% for Spain and Portugal (NW Spain even) where NorthWest Spain was even higher than that 7.1% average (Fig.2); And the 9.2% for Italy was not found (not even close) in any other study before or after Brisighelli which makes that result a little dubious; You can double-ceck that by looking at all the Admixture results from Moorjani 2009/2011 - Lazaridis 2013/DiCristofero 2013 or even the latest Chaubey 2014 [K=10]; Whereas the Spanish 7.1% has been exceeding in other studies as their African admixture results; Lazaridis 2013: 'The Spanish population may harbor some African-related admixture representing a fourth wave of migration into Europe, but affecting Spain much more than the other groups'; The result was: 12.6% Mozabite 0.7% Mbuti 1.5% Yoruba; And in the K=20 admixture analysis every single Spanish sample had North African admixture (i.e. a stable component in the Spanish pop.) and a decent amount of it;

In Botigue2013 the IBD results are given at p.9
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2013/05/30/1306223110.DCSupplemental/sapp.pdf
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1Y6nfb7Ka8E/Uaz_N0WrLSI/AAAAAAAAI24/XYZxZo9yHUk/s1600/iberia.jpg

Spain: N Africa=192 / N Morocco=227 / Sub-Sahara=5 / S Morocco=196 / Near East=108
Galicia: N Africa=204 / N Morocco=254 / Sub-Sahara=4 / S Morocco=241 / Near East=110
Andalusia: N Africa=186 / N Morocco=236 / Sub-Sahara=7 / S Morocco=214 / Near East=107
Portugal: N Africa=227 / N Morocco=283 / Sub-Sahara=9 / S Morocco=246 / Near East=110
Italy: N Africa=98 / N Morocco=103 / Sub-Sahara=4 / S Morocco=76 / Near East=170
Tuscany: N Africa=71 / N Morocco=78 / Sub-Sahara=2 / S Morocco=52 / Near East=120
Central EU: N Africa=53 / N Morocco=78 / Sub-Sahara=2 / S Morocco=41 / Near East=70

So the African IBD sharing in comparison to Italy and Tuscany is always about 2x-3x/3x-4x higher in Spain whereas the Near East ratio is only about 1.6x higher for Italy while Tuscany is right about even; Also some fun-facts from p.5 North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE (Fig.1), e.g. Saharawi, Tunisian Berbers and South Moroccans

And mind you it's not just Italians but Celto-Germano-Italics, per favore.

Those people do not exist (apart from your twisted fantasy) - or have you seen any Italians on Eupedia (Angela/Sile/Adamo/Julia90 etc.) self-identifying in such a way - no you have not; In comparison to all the Celt-Iberians that one will find here and all other places;

 

[joeyc]

There is also the admixture analysis in the supplementary information from Botique et al., where Iberians (Spaniards, Portuguese and Canarians) are the only Europeans scoring any SSA/North African.

 

[Knovas]

I though it was clear since a very long time that Celtic folks aren't specially old in Europe. No need to say, that Celticity has nothing to do with race or admixtures, but culture. Just seems there's a link between the Celts and R1b, which is strong in Iberia and Northwestern Europe.

¿Is that so terrible for you guys? Grow up.

PD: 17 posts, all of them about Iberians and by an Italian fella. Complexes who?

I'm done with this. Enjoy.

 

[Drac II]

2-9.2% ssa in me??? That's new for me. My ancestry is from 2 areas of Italy (Friul and Campania) who score 0% SSA autosomally and have 0% of SSA mtdna.

Not just you, but the Italian gene pool.

Brisighelli et al. uses only 52 SNPs. Not very reliable.

Funny coming from the guy who desperately wants to put a lot of reliability on "prediction" studies using only 1 SNP. Plus the SNPs that Brisighelli et al. used are AIMS (ancestry-informative markers), you don't need huge numbers of those to get reliable results. Italians had higher levels of both Asian and African AIMS than any other Europeans sampled in that study, including the Portuguese.

On the other hand Iberians are the only Europeans scoring SSA/North African on the admixture analysis of Lazaridis et al. and Botigue et al.

Check again, because Italians are also scoring it. And Boutique et al. is about IBDs, not quite the same as admixture analysis the way you have in mind. IBDs are about shared ancestry. Several possibilities can be conjured up to explain it.

Mucho sensibilidad?

Molto manipolazione?

 

[Drac II]

Brisighelli 2012 also had a sub-Saharan admixture of 7.1% for Spain and Portugal (NW Spain even) where NorthWest Spain was even higher than that 7.1% average (Fig.2);

Not "even", but actually ONLY, as no other part of Spain was included. And they lumped NW Spain and Portugal together as one. You are obviously trying the same old manipulation that you already unsuccessfully tried in your first posts in that other thread, the one where you showed up not too long after the "other" Italian poster also trying to spin-doctor that study got banned.

And the 9.2% for Italy was not found (not even close) in any other study before or after Brisighelli which makes that result a little dubious;

Other studies very likely did not use the same AIMS as that one, plus other studies using other methods have also found more African (and Asian) in Italian samples than in Spanish ones (example: Bauchet et al. 2007)

You can double-ceck that by looking at all the Admixture results from Moorjani 2009/2011

We've been over this one before, in that thread where you took over spin-doctoring when your "buddy" got banned. Italy was separated into three parts in this study, while Spain was all lumped together. Even so, south Italy alone, by itself, had higher African input than all Spain put together. You can double-check... again.

- Lazaridis 2013/DiCristofero 2013 or even the latest Chaubey 2014 [K=10]; Whereas the Spanish 7.1% has been exceeding in other studies as their African admixture results

Quite false. No autosomal study has ever found 7.1% sub-Saharan African in Spain. And that figure in Brisighelli et al. is for BOTH northwest Spain and Portugal lumped together. But the 9.2% figure in that study is for Italy all by itself, all of it, north, center and south.

Lazaridis 2013: 'The Spanish population may harbor some African-related admixture representing a fourth wave of migration into Europe, but affecting Spain much more than the other groups'; The result was: 12.6% Mozabite 0.7% Mbuti 1.5% Yoruba;

Apparently the word "may" flied over your head, plus you also forgot that Mozabites are North African Berbers, not sub-Saharan Africans, plus the authors themselves also offered the following possible explanation that you "mysteriously" keep forgetting to notice:

Such ancestry has also been suggested to occur at low levels in other European populations, and perhaps the Spanish stand out in our analysis because of their large sample size.

And in the K=20 admixture analysis every single Spanish sample had North African admixture (i.e. a stable component in the Spanish pop.) and a decent amount of it;

In Botigue2013 the IBD results are given at p.9
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2013/05/30/1306223110.DCSupplemental/sapp.pdf
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1Y6nfb7Ka8E/Uaz_N0WrLSI/AAAAAAAAI24/XYZxZo9yHUk/s1600/iberia.jpg

Spain: N Africa=192 / N Morocco=227 / Sub-Sahara=5 / S Morocco=196 / Near East=108
Galicia: N Africa=204 / N Morocco=254 / Sub-Sahara=4 / S Morocco=241 / Near East=110
Andalusia: N Africa=186 / N Morocco=236 / Sub-Sahara=7 / S Morocco=214 / Near East=107
Portugal: N Africa=227 / N Morocco=283 / Sub-Sahara=9 / S Morocco=246 / Near East=110
Italy: N Africa=98 / N Morocco=103 / Sub-Sahara=4 / S Morocco=76 / Near East=170
Tuscany: N Africa=71 / N Morocco=78 / Sub-Sahara=2 / S Morocco=52 / Near East=120
Central EU: N Africa=53 / N Morocco=78 / Sub-Sahara=2 / S Morocco=41 / Near East=70

So the African IBD sharing in comparison to Italy and Tuscany is always about 2x-3x/3x-4x higher in Spain whereas the Near East ratio is only about 1.6x higher for Italy while Tuscany is right about even; Also some fun-facts from p.5 North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE (Fig.1), e.g. Saharawi, Tunisian Berbers and South Moroccans

Yet when actual ADMIXTURE analysis of these samples was made, it is your fellow Italians who still showed some sub-Saharan African admixture (blue on the graph) at K=6:

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/7307/k36fig3.png

Those people do not exist (apart from your twisted fantasy) - or have you seen any Italians on Eupedia (Angela/Sile/Adamo/Julia90 etc.) self-identifying in such a way - no you have not; In comparison to all the Celt-Iberians that one will find here and all other places;

Of course they don't exist, except in your wild imagination, unlike Celt-Iberians, which even the Romans used to refer to certain inhabitants of Iberia. Don't try to be so disingenuous. Anyone can easily tell by looking at some of your posts and those of some of your friends that you indeed seek such relationship/kinship with Central Europe. Plus how many web sites like this mocking the well-known "Germanic" fetish of some Italians have you ever seen made for Spaniards regarding "Celts"?

http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/leganord.html

http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/padania/