Black Irish come from R1b Iranians?

[Fire Haired]

According to Maciamo but this is one a the very few points were I disagree because m343 is much more common in the Near East and in Central Asia it was only found in higher proportion among Kurdish settlers from Western Asia. My own theory is that R1a is from East of the Caspian while R1b from Southwest of it. P probably in Central Asia while the Grandparent K South of the Caspian (in North Iran) which split earlier from IJ in the Zagros mountains.
And about R* people having some mongoloid features, well compared to other West Eurasian haplogroups surely they did because they are somehow close related to Mongoloids. But it was rather ancient, archaic yDna P features which can be found among Caucasians as well mongoloid people. They never looked like Tatars, Uzbeks or Kazakhs because we know from their history as well autosomal DNA that they are a relatively recent mixture of Iranians (R1a, R1b, J2) and Mongols (East Asian mtDNA).

And I also do not believe that fair skin and light hair was so common in Paleolithic Europeans and the "Black Irish" are the result of Neolithic admixture. I rather believe that the Neolithic lifestyle was crucial for the development of light features.

Y DNA R was Mongliod that's true but through inter marriage R1b originated probably with Caucasians around Iran. The only R1b branch's to for sure not originate in the Near east are R1b1a1 M73(Russia and central asia) and Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 (west Europe). The R1b in Europe is almost all under R1b1a2a L23. R1b1a2a L23* and R1b1a2a2 Z2103 are what take up most r1b in saoutheast Europe and Iraq, caucus, Antolia, Iran area.

 

[Nobody1]

That sounds like total BS what do the Aryans have to do with Europe. The Aryans I guess are also the Indo Iranians who migrated out of Yamna culture in Russia about 5,000ybp into Asia and spread from there. We know at least the ones who eventulley migrated to Iran and also ones who migrated to India about 3,500ybp called themselves Aryans because of ancient writing. Almost all Europeans have 0% Aryan ancestry maybe some in far eastern Europe were different Indo Iranian tribes like Sycthians migrated to in the iron age and people around the area they originated probably have similar ancestry over 5,000 years ago. Why would the black Irish be from Iberia. Iberians are not even that dark when you compare them to non Europeans. Who knows were the very rare occurrence of brown skin in the British isles comes from I doubt there is a simple answer.

Aryans is the old Synonym for Indo-Europeans;
Why this term was chosen i dont know but thats how the Indo-Europeans were termed in History before 1945; Not every time but in many cases;

Could have saved the entire post if you would have actual knowledge about the topic i.e. Indo-Europeans;

 

[hope]

Unless there were like 500,000 of them...

I believe an envoy from Philip of Spain was sent to Ireland to inquire regarding survivors, there were, if I remember correctly seven, perhaps eight. Not even double figures, so certainly not enough to influence the gene pool, as you say.

 

[hope]

What I find odd, is the term Black Irish is not used or even recognised here in Ireland. It is a term that is used outside of Ireland and mostly, with respect, by Americans. It seems to run in par with the myths of the Irish being one of the twelve lost tribes and such-what.
As to the origin of it being attributed to the Spanish Armada, is most unlikely. Any survivors who reached shore around Ireland were either promptly killed by the Irish as invaders, rounded up and either hung or returned to England for ransom.
Someone once told me there is a field in Co.Clare called The Field Of Hangings due to so many Spanish survivors being hung there by Sheriff Clancy (who I believe is still cursed by some in Spain to-day!) Regarding the name of such a field I cannot say, I myself have no knowledge of it.
I do know many survivors were executed, whilst some made it to Scotland, but I think they headed towards Orkney.

Dark hair either with blue or green eyes in Ireland is actually common. Of course red hair makes an appearance (not so much as some think however..) as does blonde hair, but I would say the the majority is light, medium or dark brown/black. We have pale skin, fair skin and what I would class a light cream skin. Some have freckles, some do not...in other words, we are a pretty mixed bunch. This is due in my opinion to repeated invasions and through trade. If I met someone from Ireland or Scotland who was very tanned, the chances are they have been lying in the sun( not that we have a lot of that), been on holiday, or simply applied it via a bottle!

 

[Angela]

This Spanish Armada story is quite common among Irish Americans to describe this look, but I think it's rather like an urban myth. I've seen it discussed on many genealogy forums, and the posters from Ireland have rather uniformly dismissed the idea, claiming that it is a North American term that is not used in Ireland itself.

The consensus seemed to be that it was used in America merely to describe Irish people with darker hair and sometimes eyes than the majority of the Irish, and perhaps than the British people who had already emigrated to the New World.

If there are any members here from Ireland, perhaps they could confirm that fact.

An analogous term was the "Black Dutch" expression that seemingly arose in Pennsylvania after the large immigration of Palatine Germans. There is a Wiki article about the term.

It was claimed that both terms were sometimes appropriated by people who carried small amounts of SSA or Amerindian ancestry in order to obscure that fact.

What I find interesting is that there is no such term for "dark" Welsh people, although there has been a lot of immigration from Wales to North America.

I've also often wondered if the Silures could be associated with the pocket of E-V13 that today shows up in Wales and surrounding areas, and might reflect descent from Bronze Age metal workers.

The only Welshman of whom I'm aware who at all resembles that Silure description is Tom Jones.
http://www.latimes.com/includes/projects/hollywood/portraits/tom_jones.jpg

 

[Angela]

What I find odd, is the term Black Irish is not used or even recognised here in Ireland. It is a term that is used outside of Ireland and mostly, with respect, by Americans. It seems to run in par with the myths of the Irish being one of the twelve lost tribes and such-what.
As to the origin of it being attributed to the Spanish Armada, is most unlikely. Any survivors who reached shore around Ireland were either promptly killed by the Irish as invaders, rounded up and either hung or returned to England for ransom.
Someone once told me there is a field in Co.Clare called The Field Of Hangings due to so many Spanish survivors being hung there by Sheriff Clancy (who I believe is still cursed by some in Spain to-day!) Regarding the name of such a field I cannot say, I myself have no knowledge of it.
I do know many survivors were executed whilst some made it to Scotland, but I think they headed towards Orkney.

Dark hair either with blue or green eyes in Ireland is actually common. Of course red hair makes an appearance (not so much as some think however..) as does blonde hair, but I would say the the majority is light, medium or dark brown. We have pale skin, fair skin and what I would class a light cream skin. Some have freckles, some do not...in other words, we are a pretty mixed bunch. This is due in my opinion to repeated invasions and through trade. If I met someone from Ireland or Scotland who was tan, the chances are they have been lying in the sun( not that we have a lot of that), been on holiday, or simply applied it via a bottle!

Sorry...I think we cross-posted.

 

[Alan]

Y DNA R was Mongliod that's true but through inter marriage R1b originated probably with Caucasians around Iran. The only R1b branch's to not originate in the Near east are R1b1a1 M73(Russia and central asia) and Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 (west Europe). The R1b in Europe is almost all under R1b1a2a L23. R1b1a2a L23* and R1b1a2a2 Z2103 are what take up most r1b in saoutheast Europe and Iraq, caucus, Antolia, Iran area.

R was not "Mongoloid" R* was Caucasian with similarities to Mongoloids. P the father of Q and R was most likely also not Mongoloid. Even Q being like modern Mongolians is very doubtful because Q among American Indians is more ancient and they show stronger Caucasian characteristics. R has some relation to Mongoloids but overall a Caucasian Haplogroup and always been.

 

[hope]

The consensus seemed to be that it was used in America merely to describe Irish people with darker hair and sometimes eyes than the majority of the Irish, and perhaps than the British people who had already emigrated to the New World.

If there are any members here from Ireland, perhaps they could confirm that fact.

I am not sure where this term originated, I don`t think to be honest any-one really does. If I had to guess I would say maybe from the an gorta mór.. the great famine. In 1847 things were particularly bad and in `47 a great number of Irish headed to Canada and America, where I have read they were called the Black 47... ( the blight turned the potatoes black and `47 was a dark time). Perhaps this has something to do with the term.

 

[hope]

@ Angela ...I think so . No worries

 

[Degredado]

The Spanish Armada thing just sounds like an urban legend. The darker phenotype is relatively common in the British Isles as a whole, not only Ireland (i.e. Orlando Bloom, Posh Spice, Sean Connery etc)

 

[Fire Haired]

R was not "Mongoloid" R* was Caucasian with similarities to Mongoloids. P the father of Q and R was most likely also not Mongoloid. Even Q being like modern Mongolians is very doubtful because Q among American Indians is more ancient and they show stronger Caucasian characteristics. R has some relation to Mongoloids but overall a Caucasian Haplogroup and always been.

I have had this argument with so many people and it really gets annoying. We have to remember Y DNA Is just a direct male lineage E was originally sub sharan African Adolf Hitler had E1b1b does he look black. y DNA P brother NO has two decendants N which is dominate in north Asians and Urlaic speakers O is dominate in east Asians Q their cousin dominate in Native Americans, Na Dene(Eskimoe, Inuit, Etc.), and central Siberia. Why would for some reason R be Caucasian that makes no sense. Actulley NO and P's two other brothers S and M are very popular in Papue New gunie no where near the mid east or Europe. Papue New gunie are Oceania globe13 and y DNa and mtDNA have shown Mongliods and Oceania are extremely related coming from the same migration out of the near east maybe 80,000ybp or so. It gets so annoying how many people don't understand the human family tree. Something important to remember there is no such thing as the Eurasian race Caucasians and Mongliods are not very related besides that their human and maybe a connection with being non sub sharan African. Mongliod and Oceania the people in southern asia and Australia who have black skin and nappy hair their Oceania and are extremely related to Mongliods.

 

[Alan]

I have had this argument with so many people and it really gets annoying. We have to remember Y DNA Is just a direct male lineage E was originally sub sharan African Adolf Hitler had E1b1b does he look black. y DNA P brother NO has two decendants N which is dominate in north Asians and Urlaic speakers O is dominate in east Asians Q their cousin dominate in Native Americans, Na Dene(Eskimoe, Inuit, Etc.), and central Siberia. Why would for some reason R be Caucasian that makes no sense. Actulley NO and P's two other brothers S and M are very popular in Papue New gunie no where near the mid east or Europe. Papue New gunie are Oceania globe13 and y DNa and mtDNA have shown Mongliods and Oceania are extremely related coming from the same migration out of the near east maybe 80,000ybp or so. It gets so annoying how many people don't understand the human family tree. Something important to remember there is no such thing as the Eurasian race Caucasians and Mongliods are not very related besides that their human and maybe a connection with being non sub sharan African. Mongliod and Oceania the people in southern asia and Australia who have black skin and nappy hair their Oceania and are extremely related to Mongliods.

My friend you do realize that NOP's ancestor is K, K has it's origin most likely in Iran is related to IJ(Caucasian) and has a common ancestor IJK.

So if the ultimate ancestor of NOP is Caucasian, P originated around Afghanistan (Caucasian land) I would not bet my money on P being originally Mongoloid.

 

[Fire Haired]

What I find odd, is the term Black Irish is not used or even recognised here in Ireland. It is a term that is used outside of Ireland and mostly, with respect, by Americans. It seems to run in par with the myths of the Irish being one of the twelve lost tribes and such-what.
As to the origin of it being attributed to the Spanish Armada, is most unlikely. Any survivors who reached shore around Ireland were either promptly killed by the Irish as invaders, rounded up and either hung or returned to England for ransom.
Someone once told me there is a field in Co.Clare called The Field Of Hangings due to so many Spanish survivors being hung there by Sheriff Clancy (who I believe is still cursed by some in Spain to-day!) Regarding the name of such a field I cannot say, I myself have no knowledge of it.
I do know many survivors were executed, whilst some made it to Scotland, but I think they headed towards Orkney.

Dark hair either with blue or green eyes in Ireland is actually common. Of course red hair makes an appearance (not so much as some think however..) as does blonde hair, but I would say the the majority is light, medium or dark brown. We have pale skin, fair skin and what I would class a light cream skin. Some have freckles, some do not...in other words, we are a pretty mixed bunch. This is due in my opinion to repeated invasions and through trade. If I met someone from Ireland or Scotland who was very tanned, the chances are they have been lying in the sun( not that we have a lot of that), been on holiday, or simply applied it via a bottle!

I wouldn't say Irish are that mixed after Celts conquered it maybe 3,500-4,500ybp nothing as really changed. If you doubt the date I gave for Celtic invasion because uselly it is said to be only 500bc. Is because Urnfield(1,300-750bc) and decendant Hallstat cultures never made a very string presence in Ireland or Britian. The Y DNa hg Urnfield spread with Italian languages to Italy and with Celtic Hallstat-La Tene culture is R1b1a2a1a2b S28 almost non existent in Ireland. But its brotherclade R1b1a2a1a2c L21 takes up majority of Irish , highlander Scottish, and Welsh Y DNA probably came with pre Urnfield Celtic invasion. L21 is estimated to be 4,000-5,500 years old it also exists in France, Iberia, and even as east as Germany but no way was it brought over from urnfield it has be migrations from probably 3,500-4,500ybp. There were probably huge Celtic invasions of western Europe with subclades r1b1a2a1a2c L21 and R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 about 3,500-4,500ybp and not from Urnfield or Hallstat cultures which for so long were considered the first Celts. I think it is pretty cool there is a such thing as being genetically Insular Celtic. The Insular Celts are totally separate from Hallstat Celts from continental Europe.

 

[Fire Haired]

My friend you do realize that NOP's ancestor is K, K has it's origin most likely in Iran is related to IJ(Caucasian) and has a common ancestor IJK.

So if the ultimate ancestor of NOP is Caucasian, P originated around Afghanistan (Caucasian land) I would not bet my money on P being originally Mongoloid.

NO, P, S, and M's father is K(xclt) its brother is LT then their father is K which is a brother of IJ so you have to go way back. That doesn't make NOP which doesn't even exist originally Caucasian.

 

[Drac II]

No there is no link. Actually I would expect Neolithic Western Europeans to have had darker pigmentation than present-day Western Europeans. Neolithic populations originated in the Middle East and North Africa. R1b originated in Central Asia before passing through the Middle East to the Pontic Steppe, where R1b men mixed extensively with blond and blue-eyed Northeast European women. I would think that the Indo-Europeans introduced blue eyes, fair hair and red hair to Europe, or at least re-introduced them where they had been overridden by Neolithic immigrants.

The Black Irish just inherited more Neolithic phenotypes than other Northern Europeans. That is because they were the furthest from the source of the Indo-European migration (along with Iberians) and therefore inherited the most diluted autosomal DNA with their R1b. R1b remained unchanged all the way from the steppes to the Atlantic fringe of Europe, but their appearance became increasingly similar to the local population they conquered as they interbred with local women. Besides, England and Scotland got a fairly recent introgression of fair pigmentation from Anglo-Saxon and Viking migrations, which, in Ireland was mostly limited to coastal areas, especially in the Pale and in eastern Ulster.

I imagine the Neolithic inhabitants of Britain and Ireland as having straight black hair and being both long-faced and long-headed, like modern north-west Iberians. This kind of phenotype reminds me of Christopher Lee (Saruman in Lords of the Ring), who could easily pass for an Castilian or Leonese.

I suppose that by "black hair" you are actually including dark brown shades, because the majority of "Iberian-type" Britons & Irish are in fact brown-haired, like their Spanish counterparts, not really "black" haired. True black hair in Spain is found in a minority of the population.

 

[Maciamo]

I suppose that by "black hair" you are actually including dark brown shades, because the majority of "Iberian-type" Britons & Irish are in fact brown-haired, like their Spanish counterparts, not really "black" haired. True black hair in Spain is found in a minority of the population.

Black or dark brown hair. But in all fairness (no pun intended) light hair came with the Celts and Germanics well after the Neolithic, so Neolithic Britons, Irish and Iberians would have had pretty much black hair.

This kind of reaction just sounds like you have a complex about pigmentation. I have never heard an East Asian (or any Asian for that matter) feel uncomfortable about the fact that they have pitch black hair. This feeling is something I have discovered with Iberians on this forum (and other places on the Internet, I have since noticed). I don't know of any people more complexed about their hair, skin and eye colours than Spaniards and Portuguese people. What's with the obsession of trying to prove that Iberians are more Celtic or Germanic or northern European ?

 

[Butler]

The Spanish Armada thing just sounds like an urban legend. The darker phenotype is relatively common in the British Isles as a whole, not only Ireland (i.e. Orlando Bloom, Posh Spice, Sean Connery etc)

The Armada sailors washed up on the western cost of Ireland did happen 17 Armada ships came ashore, it is well documented please see the link. I do have doubts that a relatively small number of Spanish sailors would have a large impact of the Irish population given that 1588 is not so far in the past. http://www.my-secret-northern-ireland.com/spanish-armada-ships.html

 

[Alan]

NO, P, S, and M's father is K(xclt) its brother is LT then their father is K which is a brother of IJ so you have to go way back. That doesn't make NOP which doesn't even exist originally Caucasian.

And Lt is Caucasian. You see what I am trying toe explain you here? The Haplogroups among the NOP or K in wider sense are not mongoloid. depending on the clades (R or Q) or sub clades (Q1b or Q1a) they can be Mongoloid or Caucasian but than they probably share some characteristics which are not specifically mongoloid or Caucasian, like square heads/wider faces.

 

[ElHorsto]

No there is no link. Actually I would expect Neolithic Western Europeans to have had darker pigmentation than present-day Western Europeans. Neolithic populations originated in the Middle East and North Africa. R1b originated in Central Asia before passing through the Middle East to the Pontic Steppe, where R1b men mixed extensively with blond and blue-eyed Northeast European women. I would think that the Indo-Europeans introduced blue eyes, fair hair and red hair to Europe, or at least re-introduced them where they had been overridden by Neolithic immigrants.

The Black Irish just inherited more Neolithic phenotypes than other Northern Europeans. That is because they were the furthest from the source of the Indo-European migration (along with Iberians) and therefore inherited the most diluted autosomal DNA with their R1b. R1b remained unchanged all the way from the steppes to the Atlantic fringe of Europe, but their appearance became increasingly similar to the local population they conquered as they interbred with local women. Besides, England and Scotland got a fairly recent introgression of fair pigmentation from Anglo-Saxon and Viking migrations, which, in Ireland was mostly limited to coastal areas, especially in the Pale and in eastern Ulster.

I imagine the Neolithic inhabitants of Britain and Ireland as having straight black hair and being both long-faced and long-headed, like modern north-west Iberians. This kind of phenotype reminds me of Christopher Lee (Saruman in Lords of the Ring), who could easily pass for an Castilian or Leonese.

Indeed. The abundance of mediterranean admixture in Britain (> 40% K12b) is likely mostly neolithic (or even mesolithic) and it is the simplest explanation for "dark brits". The ~10% Gedrosian and R1b explanation is unnecessarily complex. Another example is Rowan Atkinson who looks stereotypically iberian.

 

[Fire Haired]

R was not "Mongoloid" R* was Caucasian with similarities to Mongoloids. P the father of Q and R was most likely also not Mongoloid. Even Q being like modern Mongolians is very doubtful because Q among American Indians is more ancient and they show stronger Caucasian characteristics. R has some relation to Mongoloids but overall a Caucasian Haplogroup and always been.

You cant say Caucasian with some Mongliod characteristics that fact is they originated in Mongliod people. Something important to remember Mongliods and Oceania go back to the same family and Mongliods are not very related to Caucasians at all besides being human.