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Thread: 12a2a* CTS616

  1. #1
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2a CTS 616
    MtDNA haplogroup
    V1a1

    Ethnic group
    Welsh,Finnish,English,French,Scottish
    Country: United States



    12a2a* CTS616



    Hello,
    I am brand-new here and to this pursuit so please bear with me if I am in some way unclear. I am trying to better understand the historical context of my FTDNA and Geno 2.0 Y-results but perhaps there is still not enough data.

    Some areas in which I have questions:
    I do not understand the relationship between I2a2a CTS616 and I2a2a M284, which according to some sources seem perhaps to both have a significant track record in Britain (3000 years ago). I know I2a2a CTS616 is somewhat rare (and apparently discovered/classified less than a year ago), but is there some way to gain more information on this other than my fruitless websearches? In terms of nomenclature I am a little unclear- Geno 2.0 has me sorted as as I-CTS616 and FTDNA has me as 12b1* and in some places it would seem to say CTS 616 is within 12a2a1 or 12a2a*. Does it make sense for me to pursue testing for M284?

    The information I have so far is that I seem to bear some relation to a small group of other individuals in North Wales and an American family grouping with an English (or less likely- originally Danish) surname (Stinnet). I appreciate your help and any ideas about plausible explanations for this type in North Wales.


    Here are my STR Values (hopefully this is a legible format):
    PANEL 1 (1-12)

    Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
    Value 15 23 15 10 15-15 11 13 11 12 12 27


    PANEL 2 (13-25)

    Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
    Value 19 8-10 11 11 25 15 20 29 11-14-15-16


    PANEL 3 (26-37)

    Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
    Value 11 11 19-21 14 14 17 19 35-35 12 10


    PANEL 4 (38-47)

    Marker DYS531 DYS578 DYF395S1 DYS590 DYS537 DYS641 DYS472 DYF406S1 DYS511
    Value 11 8 16-16 8 12 10 8 10 9


    PANEL 4 (48-60)

    Marker DYS425 DYS413 DYS557 DYS594 DYS436 DYS490 DYS534 DYS450 DYS444 DYS481 DYS520 DYS446
    Value 0* 19-22 16 11 12 12 17 9 13 25 21 10


    PANEL 4 (61-67)

    Marker DYS617 DYS568 DYS487 DYS572 DYS640 DYS492 DYS565
    Value 13 12 13 11 11 12 11

  2. #2
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glandwr View Post
    I do not understand the relationship between I2a2a CTS616 and I2a2a M284, which according to some sources seem perhaps to both have a significant track record in Britain (3000 years ago). I know I2a2a CTS616 is somewhat rare (and apparently discovered/classified less than a year ago), but is there some way to gain more information on this other than my fruitless websearches? In terms of nomenclature I am a little unclear- Geno 2.0 has me sorted as as I-CTS616 and FTDNA has me as 12b1* and in some places it would seem to say CTS 616 is within 12a2a1 or 12a2a*.
    Try the ISOGG tree and the Nordtvedt trees (see in particular this one for your question) to understand the SNP relationships.

    As I understand it, CTS616 is a common SNP in I2-M223 (called I2a2a in many more up-to-date nomenclatures but called I2b1 in the stagnant FTDNA nomenclature). It ties together I2-M223>CTS10100 (nicknamed "Cont"), I2-M223>L1229 (nicknamed "Roots"), and I2-M223>M284 (nicknamed "Isles"). Those three groups are by far the most common I2-M223 subclades. So hopefully it's all clear now that M284 is downstream of CTS616, and CTS616 is downstream of M223.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glandwr View Post
    Does it make sense for me to pursue testing for M284?
    I'm going to say no, if only because it's pretty clear that you're M284+ based on your STRs alone. In fact, you look like a pretty clear case of I2-M223>M284>L1195>L1193 (nicknamed "Isles-Eng" or "Isles-E" not because it's English specifically, but to distinguish it from the more Scottish-oriented subclades of M284). That's just from me running your results through Cullen's Predictor, though, so there may be more to it than that. Just to be sure, try joining the M223 Project at FTDNA and see where they classify you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glandwr View Post
    The information I have so far is that I seem to bear some relation to a small group of other individuals in North Wales and an American family grouping with an English (or less likely- originally Danish) surname (Stinnet). I appreciate your help and any ideas about plausible explanations for this type in North Wales.
    M284 branched from the rest of M223 a while ago and expanded probably in the Neolithic, apparently exclusively or nearly exclusively in Britain. It had some apparent bottlenecks since then, so probably everyone in the "Eng" branch descends from a single or very small number of Neolithic individuals. Within the "Briton vs. Anglo-Saxon vs. Viking vs. Norman" paradigm it definitely looks most "Briton."

  3. #3
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2a CTS 616
    MtDNA haplogroup
    V1a1

    Ethnic group
    Welsh,Finnish,English,French,Scottish
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    Sparkey, Thanks very much for your guidance. The slide of the Nordvedt tree is very helpful. I also appreciate you naming the paradigm in which your explanation resides. I've joined the M223 group and they still have me in the "ungrouped" category for now. I will report back when they place me.

    In the meantime I'm trying to contextualize and make sense of this information. I have some thoughts and questions about this and I'm curious to hear any impressions:
    As I understand it M284 has been in Britain for perhaps as long as 8,000 years bp (during the Neolithic era). I'm sure there is ample debate and low likelihood of certainty, but I do wonder-what for peoples or cultures coincide with this timeframe? Was M284 derived from movement from the Northeastern coast of Europe (even perhaps as part of a diaspora dispersed from Doggerland) or instead from Iberia as some have suggested?

    If the neolithic M284 it expanded in the Neolithic in Britain, was this due to the advent of agriculture in Britain?
    Are there any specific ideas behind what may have caused the bottleneck events experienced by the M284 branch? Disease seem like fair bets but I don't have the knowledge to say if there may be correlations to any known events in the region(s) and timeframe concerned. I guess inference of a bottleneck comes from an absence of data perhaps and nothing more so maybe not much can be gleaned in that case.

    An observation and some questions about the Isles-E group while I was looking at the M225 results:
    While the sample size is pretty darn tiny, I noticed that there are 2 groupings in Ireland that are both either in the North or West (one in the North and the other in the Mid/West surrounding Galway). In England there don't seem to be any real groupings and the markers are much more widely spaced than any existing in Ireland. This is curious and I wonder what are ,if any, are the implications? Also, if so many results for seem to be turning up in Ireland, is the Isles-Eng somewhat of a misnomer perhaps?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glandwr View Post
    As I understand it M284 has been in Britain for perhaps as long as 8,000 years bp (during the Neolithic era). I'm sure there is ample debate and low likelihood of certainty, but I do wonder-what for peoples or cultures coincide with this timeframe? Was M284 derived from movement from the Northeastern coast of Europe (even perhaps as part of a diaspora dispersed from Doggerland) or instead from Iberia as some have suggested?
    That is, of course, a very difficult question to answer, because we don't have ancient samples, and M284 is separated from its closest cousins by a few thousand years or so. Based solely on the locations of the rest of CTS616, though, I'd guess a Doggerland route as more likely than an Atlantic route. These were likely pre-Celtic peoples at first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glandwr View Post
    If the neolithic M284 it expanded in the Neolithic in Britain, was this due to the advent of agriculture in Britain?
    I've noticed a general trend in I2 subclades where they all tend to stay very bottlenecked until, over the course of the Neolithic, they expanded into fleshier trees (still with several minor bottlenecks of course, but not so severe). In the context of the British Isles, the Neolithic started about 6000YBP, right about when M284 starts having multiple branches. So it indeed seems like they came to Britain either as its earliest farmers, or came just before them and expanded once they learned farming. (Of course, ancient samples or something could wreck both interpretations.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Glandwr View Post
    Are there any specific ideas behind what may have caused the bottleneck events experienced by the M284 branch? Disease seem like fair bets but I don't have the knowledge to say if there may be correlations to any known events in the region(s) and timeframe concerned. I guess inference of a bottleneck comes from an absence of data perhaps and nothing more so maybe not much can be gleaned in that case.
    To be clear, it's far from unique to M284. Think a mix of relatively low population, founder effects, and population fluctuations like those caused by disease, famine, invasion, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glandwr View Post
    An observation and some questions about the Isles-E group while I was looking at the M225 results:
    While the sample size is pretty darn tiny, I noticed that there are 2 groupings in Ireland that are both either in the North or West (one in the North and the other in the Mid/West surrounding Galway). In England there don't seem to be any real groupings and the markers are much more widely spaced than any existing in Ireland. This is curious and I wonder what are ,if any, are the implications? Also, if so many results for seem to be turning up in Ireland, is the Isles-Eng somewhat of a misnomer perhaps?
    I think that it looks like a pan-British Isles clade indeed, although I'd still guess the location of the most recent common ancestor to have been in modern-day England, so "Eng" may or may not be a misnomer yet. People are probably shifting to call it "I2-M223>M284>L1193" anyway, now that we know all of the SNPs.

  5. #5
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2a CTS 616
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    Thanks again, Sparkey for your thoughts in response to my questions.

    I am curious-what informs your guess that the MRCA of "I2-M223>M284>L1193" was likely in modern-day England?

    In your view are there specific reasons that there have not been ancient samples recovered for this branch (such as acidic British soils or a wet climate)?

    When you say these were likely pre-Celtic people, do you use Celtic in a linguistic, cultural or other way? Do you mean that they were Indo-European speakers?

    Would you say I am correct in my understanding that this"I2-M223>M284>L1193" seems to have been in Britain alongside other I-group individuals well before R1b or many other haplogroups occurred there?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glandwr View Post
    I am curious-what informs your guess that the MRCA of "I2-M223>M284>L1193" was likely in modern-day England?
    It's really not much more than a guess at this point. Obviously, the clade is all over the British Isles and even outside of them a little. The fact that it appears more frequently in England than the other M284 clades makes me lean that way, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glandwr View Post
    In your view are there specific reasons that there have not been ancient samples recovered for this branch (such as acidic British soils or a wet climate)?
    I'm not sure about technical limitations, but I do know that there have been very few ancient DNA samples taken from Britain. In comparison, there have been multiple good ancient DNA studies of Y-DNA from Neolithic France (e.g. Treilles, which found a different branch of I2).

    Quote Originally Posted by Glandwr View Post
    When you say these were likely pre-Celtic people, do you use Celtic in a linguistic, cultural or other way? Do you mean that they were Indo-European speakers?
    You caught me doing some speculating there. I mean linguistically primarily, although I tend to associate linguistics (loosely) with culture and genetics. I don't know if they were IE speakers, but I doubt that they were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glandwr View Post
    Would you say I am correct in my understanding that this"I2-M223>M284>L1193" seems to have been in Britain alongside other I-group individuals well before R1b or many other haplogroups occurred there?
    The earliest we can trace R1b to Europe so far is the Chalcolithic (Lee 2012, Kromsdorf samples), so it's probably a safe assumption that there was I2, probably including your particular I2 lineage, before R1b in Britain. Maybe ancient samples will wreck that interpretation later, but I haven't been surprised by many ancient results yet.

  7. #7
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    Looks like you are indeed I2-M223>M284>L1193 according to the M223 Project, by the way. They've got you right next to the noble Douglas-Hamilton family (as seen in my list of famous I2 carriers here).

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