How to distinguish the Y-DNA of various Germanic invaders in England ?

[tjlowery87]

just wondering,How can you tell the percentage of english dna thats germanic from anglo saxon,danes normans etc and the percentage of ydna thats from recent immigration.

 

[adamo]

Weirdest thread name I've ever experienced. From the 1600's onwards? uhhh lol. I would estimate about 45% of English y-DNA is Germanic; 20% R-S21 and 20% I1 more or less. All this migration of Scandinav and continental Germanic lineages towards england would have taken place long before the 1600's by the way.

 

[adamo]

The angles, Saxons and Jutes where continental Germanic tribes migrating from either holland or Denmark towards England in high numbers (R-S21); there was also minor Viking presence across eastern coast of England as well, explaining SOME possibly most of the I1.

 

[adamo]

It absolutely blows my mind how gay the thread name is by the way lol

 

[toyomotor]

just wondering,How can you tell the percentage of english dna thats germanic from anglo saxon,danes normans etc if there has been migratons from germany, scandinavia from the 1600s onward?

European migration into England has been taking place forever, by the land bridge and later by sea. Don't know where you get the arbitrary date of the 1600's from. The main mass migrations/invasions were the Angles, Saxons and the Jutes and then later came the Normans. The Vikings, as such, did not arrive on the same scale, so in the medieval period, for example, the majority of yDNA was likely Germanic/Brythonic.

 

[tjlowery87]

lolol yeah should have tried a diffrent thread name.lol.iwas trying to say recent immigraion not ancient migrations sorry.thanks for replys.lol

 

[Maciamo]

I have edited the title of the thread. Don't have time to reply to it now.

 

[tjlowery87]

thanks, next time ill write a better title, sorry

 

[spruithean]

The angles, Saxons and Jutes where continental Germanic tribes migrating from either holland or Denmark towards England in high numbers (R-S21); there was also minor Viking presence across eastern coast of England as well, explaining SOME possibly most of the I1.

I would say a large faction of I1 in the UK can be linked to the Anglo-Saxons. Some of it can also be linked to the Vikings. The Anglo-Saxons appear to have links to the Jutland peninsula and that general area of the North Sea.

It absolutely blows my mind how gay the thread name is by the way lol

That's rather immature, don't you think?

 

[sparkey]

just wondering,How can you tell the percentage of english dna thats germanic from anglo saxon,danes normans etc and the percentage of ydna thats from recent immigration.

It's tough, but doable if you have precise enough STR/SNP data and enough close matches in public databases to get a good idea for any particular sample.

However, I haven't seen any large scale attempts to isolate exact percentages, other than the flawed methodology coming from the likes of Oppenheimer. People of the British Isles has given a good full-genome cluster map before (still don't think this is publicly available though), but this doesn't give percentages either, it just shows that the more Anglo-Saxon region (central and southeastern England) clusters best with the traditionally Saxon areas of the continent, and the only place they sampled that clusters best with Scandinavia is Orkney.

I would say a large faction of I1 in the UK can be linked to the Anglo-Saxons. Some of it can also be linked to the Vikings. The Anglo-Saxons appear to have links to the Jutland peninsula and that general area of the North Sea.

I would agree with this. The ratio of Z58 to L22 subclades in England matches the continental ratio better than the Scandinavian ratio, hence further support that England is more Anglo-Saxon than Viking. But the Vikings surely introduced some as well, so any given sample should be compared against Scandinavian samples to be sure.

 

[American Idiot]

presumably someone living in England who's family had come from Germany in more recent times would have a German surname, in most cases.
So, that should be one way to tell of any difference.

Even if their surname was Anglicized there should be a way to tell, using any number of various sources, if the original surname was German or English.

 

[adamo]

I personally see a link between the English and Danes, Denmark may have been a region from which many continental Germanics migrated to England (Danelaw region). Think of English surnames; Morton, Jackson, Johnson, for example. They mimic a Germanic pattern such as Petersen and other Danish surnames, whereas the scots and Irish with their MacGregor's McDonald's and O'Shea's have a clearly different and isolated surname pattern. This isn't necessarily indicative of anything, just my personal thoughts : )

 

[adamo]

It certainly proves a cultural difference based on different y-DNA subclades of R1b; there must have been quite the cultural shift with the arrival of Germanics to southeastern England compared to the more wholly insular Celtic Scotti and Picts for example.

 

[Jackson]

I personally see a link between the English and Danes, Denmark may have been a region from which many continental Germanics migrated to England (Danelaw region). Think of English surnames; Morton, Jackson, Johnson, for example. They mimic a Germanic pattern such as Petersen and other Danish surnames, whereas the scots and Irish with their MacGregor's McDonald's and O'Shea's have a clearly different and isolated surname pattern. This isn't necessarily indicative of anything, just my personal thoughts : )

It's interestingly also a difference between northern and southern England. -son names are usually from the old Scandinavian areas, or the tradition tends to be. Where they are much less common in the south, where occupational names, and namings ending in -ing and -ett and others are more common.

 

[tjlowery87]

arnt the occupational names considerd anglo saxon,like childress,cooper,etc

 

[Jackson]

arnt the occupational names considerd anglo saxon,like childress,cooper,etc

As far as i know surnames in general only really became common after the 14th century (I think) so it's more of an English-speaking link i think, although there are regional differences, and lots of 'local' names too.

 

[nordicwarrior]

I've noticed that surnames ending in "-er" (ie. Carter, Holder, Cooper, etc.) seem to indicate Germanic lines and names ending in "-s" (Jones) tend to be from Wales. Of course this is a grossly simplistic read of the surname situation, but I thought I'd throw it out there. And yes, I've noticed the "-son" relating to the Nordic countries.

 

[adamo]

The "son" and names such as Carter, Jones, Blythe; those are in my opinion due to continental Germanic influence, not necessarily The Nordic countries.

 

[epoch]

European migration into England has been taking place forever, by the land bridge and later by sea. The main mass migrations/invasions were the Angles, Saxons and the Jutes and then later came the Normans.

Norman genetic traces, if at all distinguishable, should be found in nobility. The Norman conquest almost entirely replaced native English nobility by Normans. The Doomsday Book mentions only a few natives as far as I know.

The Vikings, as such, did not arrive on the same scale, so in the medieval period, for example, the majority of yDNA was likely Germanic/Brythonic.

Maybe the Viking immigration is underestimated. The influence on the language was rather large, with quintessential English words - such as "they" and "them" - being derived from Scandinavian languages. Also, a lot of place names in the former Danelaw have the Danish suffix -by.

 

[adamo]

Yes the "Danelaw" region may have received continental Germanic migrations from Dane-mark. Ironically, this southeastern region of England can have as much as 25-33% hg I and the highest levels of R1b-U106 in the entire British isles.