haplogroup I split during LGM

I'm sorry kamani but you managed to lose main thoughts behind arguments:

Most of them actually starved to death. That's not exactly survival.
I thought we were talking about people who survived and produced offspring during LMG, the fathers of hg I. If they survived they were adapted enough to these harsh conditions.

I think the case of the Aztecs was genocide; they physically got rid of the opposing tribes.
I don't know about Israelites sacrificing children. Do you mean the Carthagenians who burned children in their sacrificial bull, when they were losing to the Romans?
There were many cultures way back sacrificing members of tribe to gods, children included, but this is not the point. The argument was that after sacrificing people, their meat wasn't eaten by others. Cannibalism was happening during starvation and only on already dead people. Friends didn't kill friends to eat them, as you suggested.
How it happens naturally you can learn watching movie Alive, based on true story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alive_(1993_film)
 
I thought we were talking about people who survived and produced offspring during LMG, the fathers of hg I. If they survived they were adapted enough to these harsh conditions.
That's what I'm talking about too, but even the non-survivors were probably hg I. So survival has nothing to do with hg I itself, just the evolved survivors might have happened to be that group. But it seems that you do accept my initial supposition that Europeans evolved during the LGM. You just have a problem with the cannibalism part.

There were many cultures way back sacrificing members of tribe to gods, children included, but this is not the point. The argument was that after sacrificing people, their meat wasn't eaten by others. Cannibalism was happening during starvation and only on already dead people. Friends didn't kill friends to eat them, as you suggested.
How it happens naturally you can learn watching movie Alive, based on true story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alive_(1993_film)
My argument was that human sacrifice in certain cultures was a symbolic relic of LGM cannibalism that had survived through the ages; I never said it involved consumption.
Since we're talking about true stories, read about the Donner Party.
 
if i1 or pre i1 came from france/iberia refuge,could ths explain i1 in western europe,and southern europe?if it was thre before germanic migrations.

either i1 came from France/Iberia or i came from France/Iberia and eveolved to i1 in the north
there are still few I* left in France/Iberia
 
I didn't say that they could live in the Alps or other mountains during the LGM, just cross them, carrying some provisions with them (the cold makes it easier to preserve aliments).

Not the Alps. All valleys were filled with glaciers. That's what shaped these beautiful lakes in northern Italy.
Probably the same situation in the Pyrenées.

What I don't understand, where did new technologies like Solutrean and microliths come from, if everyone was so isolated.
 
Humans have hunted auroch/bison, horses, and deer, reindeer, antelope or related animals for a very long time, probably well before they hunted mammoths. I don't see why the absence of mammoth is a problem. Greenland is also covered by ice sheet and that didn't prevent the Inuits to live there for thousands of years, with equipment comparable to that of Upper Palaeolithic Europe.

Ok. I made my conclusions to hastily and I oversiplified.
But try to imagine.
People in France lived as far north as the Loire basin.
Further north there was the polar desert, the nothern European plain was frozen and covered with snow most of the year.
There was simply not enough space left for mammoth where they could graze in safety.
Luckily for humans, they could convert themselves into reindeer hunters, which became their main prey.
But reindeer wouldn't - couldn't cross the Pyrenées.
In Iberia people lived only in the wooded areas, mainly along the coast.
They hunted deer, auroch, bison (only on the edges of the forest I guess) and all kinds of animals.
But the Iberian inlands where 'parktundra'.
There where no settlements there, only Neanderthals, and they went extinct.
Don't you think, if reindeer were roaming around in the Iberian inlands as well, there would have been a lot of settlements in the Iberian inlands as well?
And yes, in northern Africa, the situation was even more dramatic. That's when some A1a managed to come into Europe. And maybe a lot more women, because mtDNA shifted.
 
I don't, really. I guess it (or its directly ancestral IJ clade) came during the Gravettian. Still Paleolithic, but not quite as old.

assuming aurignacian people and gravettian people were the same leaves 2 questions unanswered :

- where did aurignacians come from ?
- where does gravettian technology come from ?

assuming aurignacian people and gravettian people were not the same leaves 2 questions unanswered :

- where did aurignacians come from ?
- where did gravettians come from ?
 
there are still few I* left in France/Iberia

Nope, there's no I* found so far.

assuming aurignacian people and gravettian people were the same leaves 2 questions unanswered :

- where did aurignacians come from ?
- where does gravettian technology come from ?

assuming aurignacian people and gravettian people were not the same leaves 2 questions unanswered :

- where did aurignacians come from ?
- where did gravettians come from ?

The oldest Gravettian remains are toward the east, specifically in Bulgaria, around the same time the Aurignacian was still in the rest of Europe. So it seems safe to suggest that it was an east-to-west migration or transmission of some sort. Whether it came from even further east, or was a local development in that region, etc. is tough to say, but either way it seems to allow for the introduction of a genetic marker (I) that was eastern relative to Aurignacian culture.
 
QUOTE=Maciamo;422105] ...pre-I1, which clearly evolved in isolation for many millennia during the Ice Age... [/QUOTE] Hmm, care to expound on this comment. What is so clear about it?
 
I also have studies showing I* is present at 2-5% trace frequencies in parts of France, Slovenia and among the Saami people.
 
Hmm, care to expound on this comment. What is so clear about it?

Long series of SNP's separating I1 from I2. I1 only started expanding after a bottleneck representing at least 10,000 years of isolation.
 
This study is from 2004, before I2b (L416) and I2c (L596) had been identified. Even L48 was not tested.

ok, I see many new mutations have been discovered since, among which I2b (L416) and I2c (L596)
but which is L48 ? or did you mean L38 (I2a2b) ?

I still wonder about those 3 Andalusians mentioned in the study
 
Based purely on modern diversity of current samples, my best guess at the moment is:
proto-I1: Franco-Iberian refuge
I2a1: Franco-Iberian refuge
(proto-?)I2a2: Franco-Iberian refuge
proto-I2b/I2c: Adriatic refuge

I would connect I2a2 with Swiderian culture (paleolithic Poland), maybe coming from the epigravettian Adriatic. Lepenski Vir may also have come from the epigravettian Adriatic, but they would have gone extinct.
The I2a1a - I2a1b is split hard to explain. I2a1a seems to have expanded from Sardinia, maybe 8000 years ago, while I21b might be southern Slavs coming from around northern Ukraïne.
I2b and I2c are small tribes now, difficult to say something about them.

What do you think about the people from Franchthi cave, Greece 20.000 years ago ?
Would they have gone extinct? Or would they have belonged to another haplogroup - not I ?
 
Dislike your post. I2a1a "expanded" from Sardinia. Linked to "Slavs" from Ukraine; no,no,no.
 
Slavic is an indo-European branch (R), R1a in their particular case, they would have expanded from the Russian steppes/ Ukrainian refuge. The men of I2 did not expand from this location, they waited out LGM in Bosnian refuge. They were in Europe long before the more recent Slavic push towards Central Europe. R1a = most recent indo-European invaders of east-Central Europe. I2 = indigenous pre-indo-European inhabitants of Europe. Two branches of these pre-indo European I men would develop into today's modern distribution: the northern proto Europeans (centered on parts of Norway, Sweden, Denmark) and the southern proto-Europeans (centered on Bosnia-Herzegovina, parts of Croatia, etc.) along with an inner subgroup of the southern branch on Sardinia.
 
In what concerns the Balkans and to a lesser extent other east European regions; yes. R1a and I2a are found mixed together. Do they have the same migration path or more importantly, relative region of origin (did they travel together since the times of infinity lol) No. Two different elements: a dis-association must be made in terms of origin.
 
ok, I see many new mutations have been discovered since, among which I2b (L416) and I2c (L596)
but which is L48 ? or did you mean L38 (I2a2b) ?

I still wonder about those 3 Andalusians mentioned in the study

Yeah, I would guess most of the "I*" in that study to be L38+, especially in France. Probably much of it in the Balkans and elsewhere is I2b/I2c instead. Andalusia is indeed curious, although I do know of Extremaduran I2-L38 in public databases, so that again seems most likely. The deepest in Spain I've seen L596+ is Aragon.
 
ok, I see many new mutations have been discovered since, among which I2b (L416) and I2c (L596)
but which is L48 ? or did you mean L38 (I2a2b) ?

I still wonder about those 3 Andalusians mentioned in the study

Sorry, typo. It's of course L38, not L48.
 
I would connect I2a2 with Swiderian culture (paleolithic Poland), maybe coming from the epigravettian Adriatic. Lepenski Vir may also have come from the epigravettian Adriatic, but they would have gone extinct.

All possible, still very speculative. One concern I have with placing I2a2 in Poland is that its two modern clades seem to have highest diversity around Germany. Of course, the center of diversity could have moved, but it leaves a slight reservation, and makes me lean more toward Ahrensburg.

Is there evidence that Swiderian came from the Epigravettian, by the way? I thought it was linked more closely with Franco-Iberian type cultures like the Solutrean and Magdalenian. The Epigravettian didn't seem to like to cross the Alps.

The I2a1a - I2a1b is split hard to explain. I2a1a seems to have expanded from Sardinia, maybe 8000 years ago, while I21b might be southern Slavs coming from around northern Ukraïne.

I really doubt I2a1a expanded from Sardinia. It surely expanded into it based on Sardinian phylogeny. I'd guess France instead.

I2a1b has a subclade with an apparent major Slavic expansion (I2a1b3a going by ISOGG), but it also has plenty of subclades with greater diversity elsewhere. Its other subclades seem to have high diversity in Britain and Germany, with a known outlier sample from Iraq (just to confuse us more). I2a1b is really tough to pin down.

IMO, the give away is that I2a1a and I2a1b actually didn't branch away from each other directly. The branching event was rather between {I2a1a, I2a1*-NF, {I2a1c, I2a1*-Alpine}} and {I2a1b, I2a1*-F}. The first indeed seems to have its highest diversity in France, with the I2a1c branch perhaps pulling us just a little east. The second helps show that the original location of that branch was probably not too far away from I2a1a's origin, because the other member of that group is French.

I2b and I2c are small tribes now, difficult to say something about them.

I2b phylogeny is very poorly studied, but I think there's something to say about I2c yet, like that I2c-PF3881 has an apparent minor association with Celtic expansions, and I2c* has a more eastern tendency, with interesting apparent expansions in the Caucasus and Anatolia (largely among the nobility interestingly), among Eastern European Jews, and within the former Venetian Republic. Extrapolate backwards and link it to its largely Adriatic I2b cousin, and the branch looks a little more likely Adriatic than Franco-Iberian to me. But its split in diversity between both sides of the Alps muddies the water a lot.

What do you think about the people from Franchthi cave, Greece 20.000 years ago ?
Would they have gone extinct? Or would they have belonged to another haplogroup - not I ?

That would be even tougher for me to guess than Spain. I'd lean "not I," because modern haplogroup I diversity isn't very strong around there. But then again, modern haplogroup I had to have come from somewhere to the east, right?
 

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