the Cimmerians : R1a and I2a1 ?

[bicicleur 2]

The Cimmerians where mentioned by the Greek historian Herodotos.

According to wikipedia :

The Cimmerians or Kimmerians (Greek: Κιμμέριοι, Kimmerioi) were an ancient Indo-European people living north of the Caucasus and the Sea of Azov as early as 1300 BC^[1] until they were driven southward by the Scythians into Anatolia during the 8th century BC. Linguistically they are usually regarded as Iranian, or possibly Thracian with an Iranian ruling class.
After their exodus from the Pontic steppe the Cimmerians probably assaulted Urartu about 714 BC, but in 705, after being repulsed by Sargon II of Assyria, they turned towards Anatolia and in 696–695 conquered Phrygia. In 652, after taking Sardis, the capital of Lydia, they reached the height of power. Their decline quickly began, and their final defeat is dated between 637 or 626, when they were defeated by Alyattes of Lydia. Thereafter, they are no longer mentioned in historical sources but probably settled in Cappadocia.<sup>[2]

On the I2a1 distribution map I noticed a spot with up to 20 % I2a1 in southeast Turkey and northern Iraq :</sup>



http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

<sup>On the R1a map there is a similar spot with upto 15 % R1a.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif

What subclades of R1a and I2a1 are these?

Could this be the descendants of the Cimmerians?</sup>

 

[Alan]

R1a* seems pretty diverse in this region.

Edit 10/14/2013:
Just to clarify a few things. The R1a* haplogroup mentioned above does not belong to the "Asian" Z93 nor the "European" Z283. It is ancestral to both. So far, more detailed SNP information are only known for three R1a individuals with paternal Kurdish ancestry: one is R1a1a1b1 Z283+, one is R1a1a1b2 Z93+, and the latest one is R1a* based on ISOGG 2013 nomenclature. For all the remaining R1a Kurds it is only known that they are at least M17+ (R1a1a); no SNPs downstream of M17 were determined, so they could be Z283 or Z93 or ...
Given the current Kurdish data, nobody can determine, which subbranch of R1a is dominant in Kurds.

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2013/10/r1a-discovered-among-yezidi-kurd.html






About I*

Well, not sure yet. some Individuals came out as I2a2*, one Kurd from Jordan with origin in Iran/Iraq came out as I1*.

It is not sure. It could be pred. I2a1 or I2a2, or maybe a mix of both.


There is no doubt for me about the good presence of I* in this particular region, since a good number of individual cases of I* are reported there. Also the frequency of 15~20% might be the result of regional sampling. I assume this frequency might be corrected down in some time to 10-15% with more studies. And instead the frequency of G* and R1b will slightly increase.

Another Indication of maybe Alanic, Mede and Cimmerian connection to I* might be that Ossetians in the Caucasus have also significant percentage of I* compared to their neighbors.

 

[Sile]

I2a* for cimmerians, they where a non iranic people, but related to thracians by Greek historians. To me they brought I2a2 branch to the balkans

 

[Alan]

I2a* for cimmerians, they where a non iranic people, but related to thracians by Greek historians. To me they brought I2a2 branch to the balkans

Cimmerians could have been both but for me it appears more likely that they were Iranic. Greek historians like Heredotus point the origin of Cimmerians in Matiene.

Also the fact that they were often confused or seen as indistinguishable to Scythians adds to this.

However I assume that the Cimmerians were some kind of connection to Thracians. They probably had some Thracian people among themselves too.

As I said earlier in one of my posts. I believe that the Thracians were a group of people who were close to Iranic groups.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Cimmerians could have been both but for me it appears more likely that they were Iranic. Greek historians like Heredotus point the origin of Cimmerians in Matiene.

Also the fact that they were often confused or seen as indistinguishable to Scythians adds to this.

However I assume that the Cimmerians were some kind of connection to Thracians. They probably had some Thracian people among themselves too.

As I said earlier in one of my posts. I believe that the Thracians were a group of people who were close to Iranic groups.

It seems to me I2a1b took over Indo-European language and culture at some point. From then on they would be hard to distinguish from R1a/R1b.

Is it possible that the Cimmerians were one of the ancestors of the Kurds? After all 20 % I2a1 and 15 % R1a makes up 1/3.

 

[Alan]

It seems to me I2a1b took over Indo-European language and culture at some point. From then on they would be hard to distinguish from R1a/R1b.

Is it possible that the Cimmerians were one of the ancestors of the Kurds? After all 20 % I2a1 and 15 % R1a makes up 1/3.

This hypothesis was brought up by allot of scientists. In fact the Iranian terminology for Cimmerians is pretty often found among Kurds.

It wouldn't be a surprise considering that Medes were mixed and had Cimmerians, Alans and Scyths in their empire.

The Royal Scythians with Partitava around Saqqez(derives from Sakka) in modern Iranian Kurdistan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqqez

Or in Botan in Turkish Kurdistan.


Alanians. the Alans exist as tribal group around lake Van, in Dersim, Cizre and modern Sanandadsch, which was formally a Kurdish principality known by the name Erdalan and translated means land of the Alans Erd=Earth, land and Alan = Alans. There is also a famous Kurdish poem (love story) about Mem û Zin. Mem is also known as Mem é Alan, what basically means Mem the Alanian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mem_and_Zin


Gutians. You find the tribal name of Guti across Iraqi Kurdistan.

Even the Lullubi exist as tribal name.

Mitanni between Syrian and Turkish Kurdistan. The capital of Mitannis was Washukani. Washukani which basically means in Kurdish good water source/fountain.

Wash is the early version of the Kurdish Kurmanji word Bash (which means good). Some Iranian languages (Persian and some Kurdish dialects) tend to shift the w loud into b this can be confirmed by a linguist if one is around. However in Dimliki and Gorani Kurdish w remains as it is, and good means in Dimliki = wesh.

Kani is 1:1 the Kurdish word for Fountain or Water Source. Now to the more interesting part. After the division of Kurdistan a city was divided. The cities name was changed by the Baath regime into Ras al Ayn (arabized). However in Kurdish both sites of the city are called Serekaniyé, which basically means the top of the water source (Sere =the top, Kani=water source yé = of).

This is were SereKani is located
http://twicsy.com/i/SudnZb

and this is were Washukani was located
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Karte_Mittani.png

Both close to each other and to rivers. I doubt that there isn't any connection.


Cimmerians, Gamirk is another term of them as far as I remember. In Iranian Kurdistan there is a a province known as Kirmashan in Kurdish. Some people assume this name might have relation to Kimmerians but not sure about that. Than there is also a region in this particular area stretching more North to Caucasus, which is known by some Kurds as Gawirk. This is a typical Kurdish loudshift as I explained in another thread. Kurdish tends to shift m loud often to w/v Gawirk=Gamirk.

Also interestingly among us Kurds Gewr is a synonym for blondish/reddish people. When people are blondish it is often said by us "Ew Gewre" what basically means he/she is blondish. This is how they used to call my mother.
I honestly would be surprised if the word Gewr for blondish was not related to the term Gewirk= Cimmerian.

Basically the grade of tribal diversity among us is very similar to that among Medes (later Parthians).

 

[bicicleur 2]

This hypothesis was brought up by allot of scientists. In fact the Iranian terminology for Cimmerians is pretty often found among Kurds.

It wouldn't be a surprise considering that Medes were mixed and had Cimmerians, Alans and Scyths in their empire.

The Royal Scythians with Partitava around Saqqez(derives from Sakka) in modern Iranian Kurdistan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqqez

Or in Botan in Turkish Kurdistan.


Alanians. the Alans exist as tribal group around lake Van, in Dersim, Cizre and modern Sanandadsch, which was formally a Kurdish principality known by the name Erdalan and translated means land of the Alans Erd=Earth, land and Alan = Alans. There is also a famous Kurdish poem (love story) about Mem û Zin. Mem is also known as Mem é Alan, what basically means Mem the Alanian.

Gutians. You find the tribal name of Guti across Iraqi Kurdistan.

Even the Lullubi exist as tribal name.

Mitanni between Syrian and Turkish Kurdistan. The capital of Mitannis was Washukani. Washukani which basically means in Kurdish good water source/fountain.

Wash is the early version of the Kurdish Kurmanji word Bash (which means good). Some Iranian languages (Persian and some Kurdish dialects) tend to shift the w loud into b this can be confirmed by a linguist if one is around. However in Zazaki and Gorani Kurdish w remains as it is, and good means in Zazaki = wesh.

Kani is 1:1 the Kurdish word for Fountain or Water Source. Now to the more interesting part. After the division of Kurdistan a city was divided. The cities name was changed by the Baath regime into Ras al Ayn (arabized). However in Kurdish both sites of the city are called Serekaniyé, which basically means the top of the water source (Sere =the top, Kani=water source yé = of).

This is were SereKani is located
http://twicsy.com/i/SudnZb

and this is were Washukani was located
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Karte_Mittani.png

Both close to each other and to rivers. I doubt that there isn't any connection.


Cimmerians, Gamirk is another term of them as far as I remember. In Iranian Kurdistan there is a a province known as Kirmashan in Kurdish. Some people assume this name might have relation to Kimmerians but not sure about that. Than there is also a region in this particular area stretching more North to Caucasus, which is known by some Kurds as Gawirk. This is a typical Kurdish loudshift as I explained in another thread. Kurdish tends to shift m loud often to w/v Gawirk=Gamirk.

Also interestingly among us Kurds Gewr is a synonym for blondish people. When people are blondish it is often said by us "Ew Gewre" what basically means he/she is blondish. This is how they used to call my mother.
I honestly would be surprised if the word Gewr for blondish was not related to the term Gewirk= Cimmerian.

Basically the grade of tribal diversity among us is very similar to that among Medes (later Parthians).

Thank you for your info, it is interesting.

Mittani, Alans, Gutians, Scythians, Cimmerians .. there are a lot of Indo-European tribes to chose from.
But the Cimmerians are still the most likely to have brought haplo I2a1 among them, I think.

 

[Alan]

Mitanni started in North Mesopotamia they later expanded to parts of Anatolia but they were North Mesopotamians.

 

[Tomenable]

Wikipedia claims that some scholars identify Srubna culture as Cimmerians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture

The historical Cimmerians have been suggested as descended from this culture.

And now we have 14 samples of aDNA from Srubna culture, including 6 males, all R1a:

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477.abstract??collection=

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf

Males:

Novosel’ki, Kurgan 6, grave 4 - R1a1a1b2, MtDNA type U5a1f2
Barinovka I, kurgan 2, grave 17 - R1a1a1b2; MtDNA type J2b1a2a
Uvarovka I, kurgan 2, grave 1 - R1a1a1b2; MtDNA type T2b4
Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 1, grave 11 - R1a1; his MtDNA type U5a1
Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 2, grave 5 - R1a1a, MtDNA type H5b
Spiridonovka II, kurgan 1, grave 1 - R1a1a1b2a2a; MtDNA type H3g

Females:

Rozhdestvenno I, Kurgan 5 grave 7 - MtDNA type K1b2a
Rozhdestvenno I, Kurgan 4 grave 4, skeleton 2 - MtDNA type I1a1
Barinovka I, kurgan 2, grave 24 - MtDNA type T1a1
Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 1, grave 15 - MtDNA type U5a1
Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 2, grave 1 - MtDNA type H6a1a
Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 1, grave 6 - MtDNA type U5a2a1
Spiridonovka II, kurgan 11, grave 12 - MtDNA type H3g
Spiridonovka II, kurgan 1, grave 2 - MtDNA type H2b

 

[LeBrok]

Wikipedia claims that some scholars identify Srubna culture as Cimmerians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture



And now we have 14 samples of aDNA from Srubna culture, including 6 males, all R1a:

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477.abstract??collection=

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf

Males:

Novosel’ki, Kurgan 6, grave 4 - R1a1a1b2, MtDNA type U5a1f2
Barinovka I, kurgan 2, grave 17 - R1a1a1b2; MtDNA type J2b1a2a
Uvarovka I, kurgan 2, grave 1 - R1a1a1b2; MtDNA type T2b4
Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 1, grave 11 - R1a1; his MtDNA type U5a1
Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 2, grave 5 - R1a1a, MtDNA type H5b
Spiridonovka II, kurgan 1, grave 1 - R1a1a1b2a2a; MtDNA type H3g

Females:

Rozhdestvenno I, Kurgan 5 grave 7 - MtDNA type K1b2a
Rozhdestvenno I, Kurgan 4 grave 4, skeleton 2 - MtDNA type I1a1
Barinovka I, kurgan 2, grave 24 - MtDNA type T1a1
Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 1, grave 15 - MtDNA type U5a1
Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 2, grave 1 - MtDNA type H6a1a
Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 1, grave 6 - MtDNA type U5a2a1
Spiridonovka II, kurgan 11, grave 12 - MtDNA type H3g
Spiridonovka II, kurgan 1, grave 2 - MtDNA type H2b

So pretty much Z93. Where is the location of graves, closer to Black or Caspian Sea?
Srubna culture is dated at 1800-1200 BC. A bit too soon for historical Cimmerian culture.