Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 39

Thread: Who destroyed the Uruk culture circa 3100 BCE ?

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,980
    Points
    563,395
    Level
    100
    Points: 563,395, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 51.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Question Who destroyed the Uruk culture circa 3100 BCE ?



    The Sumerian civilization in southern Mesopotamia arose circa 4500 BCE with the foundation of Eridu, the world's first city. Enigmatic speakers of a language isolate, the Sumerians played a leading role in the development of Near Eastern civilizations. They developed the first city-states, invented writing (cuneiform script), hierarchical administration (bureaucracy), and the division of labour in specialised arts and crafts, among others.

    Since the very beginning, the Sumerians appear to have been a bilingual society, with Sumerian speakers in southern Babylonia (Eridu, Ubaid, Ur, Uruk, Umma, Lagash) and Proto-Akkadian speakers in northern Babylonia (Kish, Nippur, Urum). Yet the whole society was culturally unified and there doesn't seem to have been any ethnic conflicts between the two linguistic groups.

    During the Uruk period (ca. 4000 to 3100 BCE), stratified, temple-centred cities started developing in what may have been the world's earliest theocratic state. Elaborately painted pottery was replaced by rough, unpainted, mass-produced pottery of purely utilitarian character.

    As the Sumerian population expanded, slave were captured from the hill country, and colonies were founded beyond Babylonia, in northern Mesopotamia, Syria, eastern Anatolia, the southern Caucasus and western Iran, to acquire natural resources lacking in Sumer (notably copper). This Uruk expansion is characterised by the sudden appearance of Uruk pottery, cylinder seals, cuneiform script and other typically Sumerian artefacts in much less developed regions. All evidence point at the establishment of population colonies by Sumerian settlers, rather than a propagation of artefacts and technologies through mere contact or trade.

    Around 3100 BCE, all Sumerian colonies were suddenly destroyed, and contact ceased for several centuries between Sumer and surrounding regions. What happened ?

    The events happen to coincide with the expansion of the Maykop culture (3700-2500 BCE) from the Northwest Caucasus to the Northeast and Central Caucasus, and the consequent displacement and expansion of the Kura-Araxes culture (3400-2600 BCE) from the Caucasus (Daghestan, Georgia, Armenia) toward eastern Anatolia, northern Syria, northern Mesopotamia and north-western Iran. Both Maykop and Kura-Araxes were Bronze Age cultures - the world's two oldest. Both produced an amazing number of metal objects (esp. Kura-Araxes) and metal weapons (esp. Maykop), although the two cultures were radically different in many other respects (burial style, settlement types, stratification of society, artistic style, etc.).

    It is very likely that the southward expansion of the Kura-Araxes culture played a major role in the demise of the Uruk settlement in the region. Since Sumerians captured slaves and apparently exploited the conquered populations, it is easy to imagine that the indigenous populations revolted against Sumerian rule, perhaps with the help of Kura-Araxes people, or by purchasing metal weapons from them.

    During that period farming was only practised in regions with enough annual precipitations, or in areas where irrigation could be practised like in southern Mesopotamia. The steppe and highlands beyond the rain curve were inhabited mostly by semi-nomadic herders. It can also be envisaged that these herders decided to attack Sumerian colonies, just as bronze weapons began to appear in the region.

    A fourth possibility is that of an early Indo-European incursion in the Fertile Crescent from the Maykop/Yamna culture. The best evidence to support this is the presence of mtDNA U4 in the Sumerian city of Mari in Syria dating from 2900-2700 BCE, i.e. after the Uruk collapse. U4 is strongly associated with haplogroup R1a, and to a lesser extent R1b. U4 is also very common in the Caucasus region, so this could also be the sign of a Kura-Araxes invasion.


    Which culture can be associated with which Y-DNA haplogroup ?

    The genetic landscape of the Near East is very complex and without any ancient Y-DNA result it is extremely difficult to guess the composition of each culture at such an early stage of development. However what ancient DNA studies have taught us so far is that the earliest one goes back in time, the more likely it is that separate populations will belong primarily to a single, or at least a very small number of paternal haplogroup. Successive invasions, migrations, intermarriages and linguistic fusions in history have entangled all haplogroups in a big, indiscernible mass. It is an interesting exercise to try to disentangle everything and try to figure out which haplogroup used to belong to whom.

    In my opinion, based on the current data, I would make the following predictions:

    - Maykop culture: R1b and G2a3b1 (+ maybe J2b)

    - Kura-Araxes culture: G2a, J1 and J2a

    - Highland goat and sheep herders from the Zagros mountains: J1, J2 and T

    - Highland goat and sheep herders from the Taurus mountains: G2a and J2, with perhaps an E1b1b minority (Proto-Semitic speakers)

    - Levantine & Syrian farmers : E1b1b and G2

    - Levantine & East Anatolian cattle herders : R1b (V88 in Levant, P297 in Anatolia/Kurdistan) and J2

    - Akkadians : E1b1b, G2a and J2a

    - Sumerians : E1b1b, G2a, J1-P58 and T

    - Elamites : mainly J2a and J1-P58


    UPDATE :

    Overall, it seems that both J1 and J2 spread from mountainous regions of Anatolia, the Caucasus and western Iran (Zagros). I believe that J1 and J2 people were originally mountain herders who lived too high in the mountains to practice cereal farming. The original homeland of J1 and J2 might correspond to the region where goats, sheep, cattle and pigs were first domesticated (although R1b surely played a role in the domestication of cattle too, either jointly or independently).

    Chiaroni et al. 2010 explain that in more detail. They estimate that J1-P58 started expanding from 7000 BCE, first colonising the Levant, Iraq, Ethiopia, Yemen and Oman. The colonisation of Arabia itself (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrein), northern Syria, Anatolia and Sudan took place during the Bronze Age, between 5000 and 3000 BCE. In light of this, if the timing is correct, it is very possible that J1-P58 was already present in both Sumer and Elam in the 5th and 4th millennium BCE.

    It was reported as early as the reign of Shar-Kali-Sharri of Akkad (c. 2100 BCE) that the Gutians, semi-nomadic tribes from the central Zagros mountains, had invaded Mesopotamia, settled in Akkad and Sumer and even came to rule several city-states there. Mountain pastoralists have invaded the plains of the Fertile Crescent during most of ancient history. I believe that many mountain tribes in the Near East were J1 and J2, although in the case of the Gutians they might have been R1b people, as the Gutians were described as fair-skinned and light haired. Rather than an early Indo-European invasion, these Gutians might have been remnants of the R1b (P25, P297, M269 or M73) that did not migrate to the Pontic Steppe.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 30-12-13 at 11:46.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,008
    Points
    23,850
    Level
    47
    Points: 23,850, Level: 47
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 700
    Overall activity: 95.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    Alpinoid
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Sumerian civilization in southern Mesopotamia arose circa 4500 BCE with the foundation of Eridu, the world's first city. Enigmatic speakers of a language isolate, the Sumerians played a leading role in the development of Near Eastern civilizations. They invented writing (cuneiform script), hierarchical administration, and the division of labour in specialised arts and crafts, among others.

    During the Uruk period (ca. 4000 to 3100 BCE), stratified, temple-centred cities started developing in what may have been the world's earliest theocratic state. Rough, unpainted, mass-produced pottery replaced painted pottery. As the Sumerian population expanded, slave were captured from the hill country, and colonies were founded beyond Babylonia, in northern Mesopotamia, Syria, eastern Anatolia, the southern Caucasus and western Iran, to acquire natural resources lacking in Sumer (notably copper). This Uruk expansion is characterised by the sudden appearance of Uruk pottery, cylinder seals, cuneiform script and other typically Sumerian artefacts in much less developed regions. All evidence point at the establishment of population colonies by Sumerian settlers, rather than a propagation of artefacts and technologies through mere contact or trade.

    Around 3100 BCE, all Sumerian colonies were suddenly destroyed, and contact ceased for several centuries between Sumer and surrounding regions. What happened ?

    The events happen to coincide with the expansion of the Maykop culture (3700-2500 BCE) from the Northwest Caucasus to the Northeast and Central Caucasus, and the consequent displacement and expansion of the Kura-Araxes culture (3400-2600 BCE) from the Caucasus (Daghestan, Georgia, Armenia) toward eastern Anatolia, northern Syria, northern Mesopotamia and north-western Iran. Both Maykop and Kura-Araxes were Bronze Age cultures - the world's two oldest. Both produced an amazing number of metal objects (esp. Kura-Araxes) and metal weapons (esp. Maykop), although the two cultures were radically different in many other respects (burial style, settlement types, stratification of society, artistic style, etc.).

    It is very likely that the southward expansion of the Kura-Araxes culture played a major role in the demise of the Uruk settlement in the region. Since Sumerians captured slaves and apparently exploited the conquered populations, it is easy to imagine that the indigenous populations revolted against Sumerian rule, perhaps with the help of Kura-Araxes people, or by purchasing metal weapons from them.

    During that period farming was only practised in regions with enough annual precipitations, or in areas where irrigation could be practised like in southern Mesopotamia. The steppe and highlands beyond the rain curve were inhabited mostly by semi-nomadic herders. It can also be envisaged that these herders decided to attack Sumerian colonies, just as bronze weapons began to appear in the region.

    A fourth possibility is that of an early Indo-European incursion in the Fertile Crescent from the Maykop/Yamna culture. The best evidence to support this is the presence of mtDNA U4 in the Sumerian city of Mari in Syria dating from 2900-2700 BCE, i.e. after the Uruk collapse. U4 is strongly associated with haplogroup R1a, and to a lesser extent R1b. U4 is also very common in the Caucasus region, so this could also be the sign of a Kura-Araxes invasion.


    Which culture can be associated with which Y-DNA haplogroup ?

    The genetic landscape of the Near East is very complex and without any ancient Y-DNA result it is extremely difficult to guess the composition of each culture at such an early stage of development. However what ancient DNA studies have taught us so far is that the earliest one goes back in time, the more likely it is that separate populations will belong primarily to a single, or at least a very small number of paternal haplogroup. Successive invasions, migrations, intermarriages and linguistic fusions in history have entangled all haplogroups in a big, indiscernible mass. It is an interesting exercise to try to disentangle everything and try to figure out which haplogroup used to belong to whom.

    In my opinion, based on the current data, I would make the following predictions:

    - Maykop culture: R1b and G2a3b1

    - Kura-Araxes culture: G2a, J1 and J2

    - Sumerian civilization: T (Sumerian speakers) and E1b1b + J1 (Semitic Proto-Akkadian speakers)

    - Highland herders from the Taurus and Zagros mountains: E1b1b, J1 and J2 (Proto-Semitic speakers)
    While I agree with most of what you say, i would put it that the iranic invasion from the north destroyed the uruks, with this invasion from the north came, R, G, J1, J2 and T ..........there was no T in mesopotamia, there was originally only K, T formed in the pamir regions according to nat geno and Ftdna project people.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    3,596
    Points
    22,329
    Level
    45
    Points: 22,329, Level: 45
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 221
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    Which culture can be associated with which Y-DNA haplogroup ?
    This is a guess

    - Maykop culture: R1b and G2a3b1

    - Kura-Araxes culture: mainly G2a

    - Sumerian civilization: mainly J2a (Sumerian speakers) , the farmers that arrived +/- 6000 BC from the north.

    When did the Semitic speaking Akkadian arrive ? : E1b1b + J1

    - Elamites : T

    I think an early Indo-European incursion in the Fertile Crescent from the Maykop/Yamna culture is possible, resulting in the arrival of the Gutians north of Elam (when?), I would guess they were R1b.

  4. #4
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    I also believe the Elamites of western Iran were heavily T and Zoroastrian religion was spawned out of remnants of them, the Elamites were the "first Iranians" long before the indo-Aryan branch of indo-European had arrived.

  5. #5
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,980
    Points
    563,395
    Level
    100
    Points: 563,395, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 51.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    While I agree with most of what you say, i would put it that the iranic invasion from the north destroyed the uruks, with this invasion from the north came, R, G, J1, J2 and T ..........there was no T in mesopotamia, there was originally only K, T formed in the pamir regions according to nat geno and Ftdna project people.
    An Iranic invasion in 3100 BCE. That's impossible since the Indo-Iranians descend from the Sintashta culture, which only appeared 1000 years later, and did not reach Iran until 1800 BCE at earliest.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,008
    Points
    23,850
    Level
    47
    Points: 23,850, Level: 47
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 700
    Overall activity: 95.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    Alpinoid
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    An Iranic invasion in 3100 BCE. That's impossible since the Indo-Iranians descend from the Sintashta culture, which only appeared 1000 years later, and did not reach Iran until 1800 BCE at earliest.
    wasn't the Yanik culture of 3000BC an "iranic" invasion into northern uruk lands!
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  7. #7
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,980
    Points
    563,395
    Level
    100
    Points: 563,395, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 51.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I also believe the Elamites of western Iran were heavily T and Zoroastrian religion was spawned out of remnants of them, the Elamites were the "first Iranians" long before the indo-Aryan branch of indo-European had arrived.
    I believe that some of you here were misled to believe that T was high in south-western Iran because of the mistaken map of T on Wikipedia, which is based on the K in Nasidze et al. 2004. The only reliable study for hg T in Iran is the more recent Grugni et al. 2012, which found mostly haplogroup L in southern Iran, and no T at all in Khuzestan and Isfahan.

    Considering that there is hardly any T in the region of Elam today, and that the most common haplogroups are J2a, J1 and R1a, I would rather think that the Elamites were predominantly J2a (R1a being Indo-Iranian and J1 probably Arabic). Besides, the influence of Elam was directed eastward towards Baluchistan, where once again J2a dominates.

    Haplogroup T is found mostly in Mesopotamia, then in the northern periphery where the Sumerians had colonies (Syria, eastern Anatolia, southern Caucasus). Its low frequency in historical Sumer (Iraqi marshes) is mainly due to the extremely strong presence of Arabs (74% of J1-P58), who arrived relatively recently. Additionally, that study only tested Arabs from the Al-Hawizah marshes, along the Iranian border, not between the Tigris and Euphrates. If we take out all the clearly post-Chalcolithic arrivals (J1-P58, Q, R1a and R1b), what is left in southern Iraq is J1(xP58), E1b1b, J2a, T, G and L, in that order of frequency. The Kuwait Y-DNA Project can also serve as a comparison. It shows that hg T and J2a are the two most common in the region after the Semitic J1-P58 and E1b1b.

    The difficulty is to determine whether J1(xP58) and T were brought by Semitic people (Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Arabs) or were already there before. E1b1b is the Afro-Asiatic haplogroup par excellence, so I would not consider it native Sumerian. J2a could be Sumerian, but it has very little diversity among southern Iraqi (especially compared to the rest of Iraq) and might well have come with the Arabs or other recent invaders.

    That leaves G, E1b1b, J1(xP58) and T as the possible Sumerian+Akkadian haplogroups. I don't have any details about the subclades of haplogroup G found in Iraq, so I cannot judge when it could have arrived.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 29-12-13 at 18:26.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  8. #8
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,980
    Points
    563,395
    Level
    100
    Points: 563,395, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 51.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    wasn't the Yanik culture of 3000BC an "iranic" invasion into northern uruk lands!
    Yanik wasn't Iranic. Perhaps Proto-Indo-European, but certainly not Iranic. That's a gross anachronism.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  9. #9
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    I disagree with your T analysis Maciamo.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,008
    Points
    23,850
    Level
    47
    Points: 23,850, Level: 47
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 700
    Overall activity: 95.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    Alpinoid
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yanik wasn't Iranic. Perhaps Proto-Indo-European, but certainly not Iranic. That's a gross anachronism.
    i do not fabricate

    yanik from north caucasus
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ulture&f=false
    history of Iranian people

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godin_Tepe

    Uruk into late Antiquity
    Although it had been a thriving city in Early Dynastic Sumer, especially Early Dynastic II, Uruk was ultimately annexed to the Akkadian Empire and went into decline.

    http://clio.missouristate.edu/mcoope...02ninevite.pdf
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  11. #11
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,980
    Points
    563,395
    Level
    100
    Points: 563,395, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 51.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    i do not fabricate

    yanik from north caucasus
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ulture&f=false
    history of Iranian people

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godin_Tepe

    Uruk into late Antiquity
    Although it had been a thriving city in Early Dynastic Sumer, especially Early Dynastic II, Uruk was ultimately annexed to the Akkadian Empire and went into decline.

    http://clio.missouristate.edu/mcoope...02ninevite.pdf
    It's not because the book is called "Iranian history" that all cultures described in the book are Iranian in the ethno-linguistic sense. It is a history of the territory called Iran today, not of the Indo-Iranian people !
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,008
    Points
    23,850
    Level
    47
    Points: 23,850, Level: 47
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 700
    Overall activity: 95.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    Alpinoid
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's not because the book is called "Iranian history" that all cultures described in the book are Iranian in the ethno-linguistic sense. It is a history of the territory called Iran today, not of the Indo-Iranian people !
    consensus recently is that the iranic people began north of the caspian sea............is this a recent fabrication then?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,839
    Points
    52,092
    Level
    70
    Points: 52,092, Level: 70
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 458
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    When I look at the modern day distribution of J2 in countries with IE languages throughout Europe and southwest Asia, I don't see any way that J2 wasn't part of the IE expansion, so perhaps the Maykop culture was at least partly J2. I realize that the present population distribution in what was Maykop territory doesn't support that, but it also doesn't support the idea of Maykop being R1b either. But both have a potential origin point not far from there, in Anatolia.

  14. #14
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    Kira Aares of the Caucasus certainly had J2; may kip was probably a form of R1 culture.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,008
    Points
    23,850
    Level
    47
    Points: 23,850, Level: 47
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 700
    Overall activity: 95.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    Alpinoid
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    If I had to take a quick guess, I'd say that traders from east Africa and what is now Iraq found Madagascar to be a good place to build trading outposts.
    what?

    Uruk died out in 3000BC arabic traders in madagascar is 4000 years later
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,839
    Points
    52,092
    Level
    70
    Points: 52,092, Level: 70
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 458
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    what?

    Uruk died out in 3000BC arabic traders in madagascar is 4000 years later
    Although the topic of this thread was the destruction of Uruk, I was specifically addressing adamo's question of why there are currently people on Madagascar who have Y haplotype T. I guess that adamo found something on Wikipedia that convinced him that no Arabs from the Persian Gulf ever visited Madagascar, only Iranians, but that certainly isn't true. There were important Arab controlled trading networks all along the coast of east Africa for centuries, possibly for thousands of years. There were also traders from east Africa plying those waters for who know how long. These are probably the people who would have brought haplotype T to Madagascar. One doesn't need to hallucinate people with haplotype T in parts of Iran where T isn't actually common in order to explain its presence on Madagascar.

  17. #17
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    9,332
    Points
    84,292
    Level
    90
    Points: 84,292, Level: 90
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 1,258
    Overall activity: 21.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    When I look at the modern day distribution of J2 in countries with IE languages throughout Europe and southwest Asia, I don't see any way that J2 wasn't part of the IE expansion, so perhaps the Maykop culture was at least partly J2.
    I support this view. I think J2 were the very successful haplogroup of EEF, who came to Europe from middle east. If they moved to the north shores of Black Sea, by chalcolithic, they could have became a ruling class for R1a and R1b folks, transformed them into farming society, and giving them full IE character. E-V13 could have been a part of this enterprise too. Later they've moved south as Indo-Iranians to Middle East. Full circle for J2, from Middle East to Middle East.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,008
    Points
    23,850
    Level
    47
    Points: 23,850, Level: 47
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 700
    Overall activity: 95.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    Alpinoid
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Although the topic of this thread was the destruction of Uruk, I was specifically addressing adamo's question of why there are currently people on Madagascar who have Y haplotype T. I guess that adamo found something on Wikipedia that convinced him that no Arabs from the Persian Gulf ever visited Madagascar, only Iranians, but that certainly isn't true. There were important Arab controlled trading networks all along the coast of east Africa for centuries, possibly for thousands of years. There were also traders from east Africa plying those waters for who know how long. These are probably the people who would have brought haplotype T to Madagascar. One doesn't need to hallucinate people with haplotype T in parts of Iran where T isn't actually common in order to explain its presence on Madagascar.
    ok, I agree

    I stated previously that J and T where slavers in east africa and madagascar...as far south as Mafia island
    Last edited by Sile; 30-12-13 at 19:34.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  19. #19
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,980
    Points
    563,395
    Level
    100
    Points: 563,395, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 51.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    When I look at the modern day distribution of J2 in countries with IE languages throughout Europe and southwest Asia, I don't see any way that J2 wasn't part of the IE expansion, so perhaps the Maykop culture was at least partly J2. I realize that the present population distribution in what was Maykop territory doesn't support that, but it also doesn't support the idea of Maykop being R1b either. But both have a potential origin point not far from there, in Anatolia.
    There was surely a minority of J2 among the Indo-Europeans, but it is still unclear when J2b joined R1a and R1b populations. South Asians have both J2a and J2b2, although the two subclades have very different distributions. J2a peaks around central Anatolia, the Caucasus and north-western Iran, then progressively fades eastward across Iran and Pakistan into western India. J2b2 is found all over India, especially from northern Pakistan to the Ganges valley, where the Indo-Aryan presence is historically the strongest.

    I believe that J2b2 is the most likely J2 subclade to have been spread by the Indo-Europeans as I have explained here. J2b1 is found almost exclusively around the Balkans and western Anatolia. J2b2 also peaks in the Balkans. It would make sense if J2b2 migrated to the Pontic Steppe from the Balkans during the Neolithic or Chalcolithic, perhaps as part of the Carpatho-Balkan Metallurgical Province.

    The Kura-Araxes culture was probably heavy on J2a and G2a3, and it is possible that a minority of both lineages permeated into the neighbouring Maykop and Yamna cultures. G2a3b1 is clearly Indo-European, but did not necessarily come from the Caucasus region. Like J2b2 it could have come from the Balkans. At the time being I have not been able to identify any specific J2a subclade that could be Indo-European.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  20. #20
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,980
    Points
    563,395
    Level
    100
    Points: 563,395, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 51.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Although the topic of this thread was the destruction of Uruk, I was specifically addressing adamo's question of why there are currently people on Madagascar who have Y haplotype T. I guess that adamo found something on Wikipedia that convinced him that no Arabs from the Persian Gulf ever visited Madagascar, only Iranians, but that certainly isn't true. There were important Arab controlled trading networks all along the coast of east Africa for centuries, possibly for thousands of years. There were also traders from east Africa plying those waters for who know how long. These are probably the people who would have brought haplotype T to Madagascar. One doesn't need to hallucinate people with haplotype T in parts of Iran where T isn't actually common in order to explain its presence on Madagascar.
    I don't know about the T in Madagascar. But haplogroup T is approximately 30,000 years old, in other words older than R*, and perhaps older than the split between Q and R. Hg T is very common in the Horn of Africa, so I don't see why migrations from that region couldn't have brought T to Madagascar at some point since the Ice Age.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  21. #21
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,411
    Points
    23,170
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,170, Level: 46
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 380
    Overall activity: 9.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    I would add yDNA L to Elamites and Sumerians.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,839
    Points
    52,092
    Level
    70
    Points: 52,092, Level: 70
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 458
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Ancient Persians are from Southwest Iran, but if we speak about modern Persian speakers, they live in Southwest, Central, North and Northeast Iran.

    ..............
    But the Persians invaded what is now Iran long after the Uruk culture was destroyed.

  23. #23
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,411
    Points
    23,170
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,170, Level: 46
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 380
    Overall activity: 9.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    But the Persians invaded what is now Iran long after the Uruk culture was destroyed.
    I never claimed something different. I just wanted to clarify were the Persian majority lives.

    The "Persian" indeed did invade Iran later. If we actually can speak of them already as Persian when they came. Considering the genetic and linguistic origin it appears allot more likely that Persians did not immigrate to Iran as a a separate ethnicity but emerged in Iran as the product of Medes and Elamites. The Medes must have been a source population of the Aryan immigrants into Iran.

    You might ask How I come to this conclusion. The Persian it is said by historic traditions descend from a Median group which lived in the historic region known as "Parsua" which meant "borderland" and was located just South of lake Urmiya in Media. They either immigrated or were driven out to Southwest Iran.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsua
    Also the ancestors of the Achaemenid dynasty in which for the first time in history the Persian ethnicity appeared most likely descend from the province Parsua.


    The Persian language itself as part of the Southwest Iranian language group likely derived from the Northwest Iranian group. Since Northwest Iranian languages show allot more ancient characteristics and before the Persian speakers pushed forward to North Iran there was a fluent transition from East to Northwest Iranian languages, as we can see on small linguistic groups in North Iran like the Talysh, Gilakis, Mazandaranis, Semnanis (almost died out).

    This is one of the major reasons why there is so much debate about whether a group is Kurdish or Persian especially on the bordering territories. There is still a fluent transition from Kurdish tribes in West Iran to Persians. Just a Century ago Big Lors like the Bakhtiyaris were considered as Kurds. In the book Sherefname of Sherefhan al Bidlisi from the 16th century, it is written that the Lors, Bakthiyaris were one of the basic and major groups of Kurds. Nowadays they are so assimilated that their language is considered as Southwest Iranian, though showing very typical Kurdish loudshift, their customs and dances are all typical for Kurds.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharafnama


    Ironically even the name of the Bakthiari capital is "Shahre Kurd" which means basically "city of Kurds"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahrekord
    Name of the city in Kurdish and Persian means "the city of Kurds".

    Up today there are still remnants of Kurds even in the province of Fars. They speak a very archaic form of Laki/Lori Kurdish.

    In one sentence. It looks to me like Persians are basically Kurds which have merged with Elamites.
    Last edited by Alan; 30-12-13 at 21:33.

  24. #24
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    Seems to me like Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians first followed by Saudi Arabians (Arabian peninsulars) later.

  25. #25
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,411
    Points
    23,170
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,170, Level: 46
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 380
    Overall activity: 9.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    I still believe that T (and probably L too) was a significant Haplogroup among Elamites and Sumerians and I don't see anyone actually arguing against it. And the Persian got it in connection to J2a from the Elamites.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •