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Thread: Retracing the mtDNA haplogroups of the original R1b people

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    Post Retracing the mtDNA haplogroups of the original R1b people

    I have recently proposed a novel theory regarding the origins of haplogroup R1b. I believe that R1b1 (P25) people might have been among the first people to domesticate cattle in eastern Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia/Syria during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic period. I suggested that the P297 branch moved north across the Caucasus to seek grazing grounds for their cattle, while the V88 branch migrated south to the Levant, then to Africa, following the Nile Valley until the Sahel, then spreading westward. R1b-V88 is found today at relatively high frequencies among several ethnic groups from the Sudan and Sahel, such as:

    - the Hausa (40% of R1b-V88 in Sudan + 15.6% of B, 12.5% of A, 12.5% of E1b1a and 3% of E1b1b // 20% of R1b-V88 in northern Nigeria), speakers of of Chadic languages.

    - the Fulani/Fulbe (54% of R1b-V88 in Sudan + 35% of E1b1b, mostly E-V22 // 14% of R1b-V88 in Niger), speakers of a Senegambian language.

    - the Kirdi (from 40 to 95% of R1b-V88 in northern Cameroon), speakers of Chadic languages.

    - Egyptian and Libyan Berbers (27% of R1b-V88 in Siwa, at the border of Egypt and Libya), speakers of a Semitic language.


    Unfortunately I could only find mtDNA data for the Fulani and Berbers. The Egyptian and Libyan Berbers have haplogroups H1 and H3.


    The Fulani

    The Fulani people have clearly Caucasoid features, intermediary between Near Eastern (long, aquiline nose) and North African, a result of the blend of Near Eastern R1b with North African E-M78 and mtDNA M1 and L.

    Having a look at the maternal lineages of the Fulani could give us a glimpse of what mtDNA the original R1b people carried some 10,000 years ago. It turns out that they carry very European, rather than Near Eastern, haplogroups, including U5, V, H, and J1b.

    The data is from Černý et al. 2006 (samples from Chad, Cameroon and Burkina Faso, n=186) and Černý et al. 2011 (same as previous + Niger).

    The following Eurasian haplogroups were found among the Fulani : J1b (17x in all four countries), U5 (11x in Chad, Niger and Burkina Faso), V (2x in Cameroon and Chad), U3a (1x in Niger), U6a (1x in Burkina Faso). Černý et al. 2006 mentioned in the abstract that mtDNA H lineages were found, but the more detailed 2011 study does not list any H sample. One sample from Niger could be H, but is undetermined.

    Afonso et al. 2004 also found J1 and U5 in Sudan, which has large Fulani and Hausa populations. Unfortunately, the article does not mention which mtDNA belongs to which ethnic group.

    U5 and V are typical of Mesolithic Europeans, but are also found in Northwest Africa as well as among most North Asian peoples. They are the two main haplogroups of the Sami. Haplogroup V has been found as far east as Korea and Japan.

    Based on these mtDNA maps of Africa (p.12), U5 is by far the most common non-African lineage among the Fulani

    J1b and U3 are the more typically Middle Eastern lineages.

    U3 is found primarily around the Black Sea, which is the extended homeland of R1b from the Mesolithic to the Bronze Age. It is therefore not surprising to find it among R1b populations in Africa, although U3 is also associated with other Near Eastern Y-haplogroups like J1, J2 and T. Haplogroup U3 was one of the first mtDNA lineages that I listed as potential maternal equivalents of R1b. Nevertheless, I always believed that U3 was a very minor maternal lineage of R1b.

    What's more the U3 sample from Niger may not even be related to R1b, since the Fulani population that tested positive for R1b was in Sudan, and other Fulani tribes from Burkina Faso (next to Niger) had no R1b, but did have 8% of haplogroup T. I believe that the correlation between Y-DNA T and mtDNA U3 is more likely in Africa than with R1b.

    J1b is particularly common in Saudi Arabia (9.5%). What is interesting is that its coalescence age in Europe is very young, only 5000 years (+-2000 years), which corresponds almost exactly to the arrival of R1b in Europe during the Bronze Age. No J1b has been found to date in Europe before the Bronze Age. The oldest samples date from the Unetice and Urnfield cultures, two cultures that I have linked to the diffusion of R1b.

    In Europe, J1b peaks in Scotland (4%), which also has one of the highest percentages of R1b, but more importantly one of the highest ratio of ANE (Ancient North Asian) and Gedrosian autosomal DNA, two admixtures associated with the deep roots of haplogroup R in Asia.

    If there really is any H among the Fulani, it could either have come from Northwest Africa (H1, H3), or from Neolithic Middle Eastern R1b (most likely H5a, although H4 and H6 are also possible).


    The mtDNA of R1b-M269 that wasn't part of the R1b-V88 tribes

    R1b people almost certainly picked up other maternal lineages in the Near East and/or Caucasus before moving to the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, or from the migration of Carpatho-Balkan people to the steppes during the Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic (G2a3b1, J2b2, T1a1a1a). These would have included typical haplogroups of the region like K (notably the ubiquitous K1a4), I, T2b, W, and X2.

    Since haplogroups I and W haven't been found in Neolithic Europe to date, I would assume that they were picked up by R1b in eastern Anatolia or the Caucasus. The other could have come from 'Old Europe'.


    Possible chronology of maternal lineages of R1b men


    Late Upper Palaeolithic

    R1b* men are mammoth and bison hunters in Eastern Europe, Siberia and/or Central Asia.
    => mtDNA U5 and V (like the Sami)

    Early Neolithic

    R1b1* settled in the northern Near East and starts domesticating cattle.
    => absorbs mtDNA J1b and U3

    Neolithic to Early Bronze Age

    R1b1c migrates to the Levant and Africa. Absorbs mtDNA L lineages in Africa.

    R1b1b migrates to the North Caucasus and Pontic Steppe. Absorbs U2 and U4 lineages from R1a populations in the steppe. Absorbs K, T2b and X2 lineages from G2a3b1, J2b2 and T1 populations from the Balkans and Carpathians.

    Middle to Late Bronze Age

    R1b-L23 to L11 moves deeper inside Europe and absorbs various local Neolithic/Chalcolithic lineages.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 03-01-14 at 00:44.
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    Very good deduction Maciamo, a great read. I wonder how much autosomal non-african dna is left in fulani people after 7-10k years mixing with locals? Not being in highly agricultural/civilization scenario, just small tribal groups, they might have retained half of West Asiatic autosomal DNA.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have recently proposed a novel theory regarding the origins of haplogroup R1b. I believe that R1b1 (P25) people might have been among the first people to domesticate cattle in eastern Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia/Syria during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic period. I suggested that the P297 branch moved north across the Caucasus to seek grazing grounds for their cattle, while the V88 branch migrated south to the Levant, then to Africa, following the Nile Valley until the Sahel, then spreading westward. R1b-V88 is found today at relatively high frequencies among the Hausa and especially the Fulani people of Africa.

    The Fulani are of particular interest as some tribes have over 90% of R1b-V88, they don't have any other non-African Y-DNA, and Fulani people have clearly Caucasoid features (quite Middle Eastern actually, but that may be an impression due to the darker skin).

    Having a look at the maternal lineages of the Fulani would in all likelihood reveal what mtDNA the original R1b people carried some 10,000 years ago. It turns out that they carry very European, rather than Near Eastern, haplogroups, including U5, V, H, and J1b.

    U5 and V are typical of Mesolithic Europeans, but are also found in Northwest Africa as well as among most North Asian peoples. They are the two main haplogroups of the Sami. Haplogroup V has been found as far east as Korea and Japan.

    Based on these mtDNA maps of Africa (p.12), U5 is by far the most common non-African lineage among the Fulani

    Unfortunately I couldn't find the subclades of H, but the one most likely to be associated with Neolithic Middle Eastern R1b, IMHO, is H5a, although H4 and H6 are also possible.

    J1b is the most Middle Eastern of the four. It is particularly common in Saudi Arabia (9.5%). What is interesting is that its coalescence age in Europe is very young, only 5000 years (+-2000 years), which corresponds almost exactly to the arrival of R1b in Europe during the Bronze Age. No J1b has been found to date in Europe before the Bronze Age. The oldest samples date from the Unetice and Urnfield cultures, two cultures that I have linked to the diffusion of R1b.

    In Europe, J1b peaks in Scotland (4%), which also has one of the highest percentages of R1b, but more importantly one of the highest ratio of ANE (Ancient North Asian) and Gedrosian autosomal DNA, two admixtures associated with the deep roots of haplogroup R in Asia.


    R1b people almost certainly picked up other maternal lineages in the Near East and/or Caucasus before moving to the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. These would have included typical haplogroups of the region like K (notably the ubiquitous K1a4), I, T2b, U3, W, and X2.
    Where and when did R1b and H1 and H3 intersect? And R1b and J1c?

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Very good deduction Maciamo, a great read. I wonder how much autosomal non-african dna is left in fulani people after 7-10k years mixing with locals? Not being in highly agricultural/civilization scenario, just small tribal groups, they might have retained half of West Asiatic autosomal DNA.
    I have just checked, and the good news is that we already have Fulani autosomal samples from Henn et al. in Dienekes's K12 list. It turns out that they have 13.2% of non-African admixture. Here is their Eurasian composition:

    - 9.6% of Mediterranean
    - 2.4% of Southwest Asian
    - 0.3% of South Asian
    - 0.3% of Southeast Asian
    - 0.2% of Northeast Asian
    - 0.2% of West European
    - 0.1% of East European

    Note that the Fulani have 0% of West Asian.

    Here is what the percentages look like if I extend the 13.2% to 100%, to isolate the potential admixture of the original R1b-V88 people.

    - 72.7% of Mediterranean
    - 18.1% of Southwest Asian
    - 2.3% of South Asian
    - 2.3% of Southeast Asian
    - 1.5% of Northeast Asian
    - 1.5% of West European
    - 0.7% of East European

    This is really exciting as it confirms that Palaeolithic carriers of haplogroup R carried genes that look European, East Asian and South Asian in modern admixtures. Obviously they were not a blend of people from all these regions, but the source population who contributed to a small percentage of admixture in all those populations. These genes seem to have arisen with Y-haplogroup K, and spread around Eurasia with L, T, N, O, Q, R.

    The Southwest Asian admixture might be the result of prior intermingling with other populations in the Middle East before moving to Africa. It might be the J1b maternal lineages, which are the only ones that are clearly more Middle Eastern-looking than European. It could also be from the 35% of E-M78.

    It's very interesting that R1b people could have contributed to the Mediterranean admixture. There is surely a link to mtDNA H, U5 and V, which are also found in regions with low R1b but high Mediterranean admixture like Northwest Africa, Sardinia and Bosnia.

    What is certain is that Dodecad admixtures are artificial and group many components from different populations.

    This elevated Mediterranean admixture leads me to two possible scenarios:

    1) R1b-V88 would have been the one who brought U5 and V lineages to Northwest Africa during the Neolithic, and perhaps also H1 and H3. This would solve the mystery of who brought all these Palaeolithic European maternal lineages to the Maghreb and Libya, since there is hardly any haplogroup I in the region. R1b-V88 is found in 6% of the population in Libya, 2.5% in Algeria, 2% in Tunisia and 1% in Morocco, while the combined frequencies of H, U5 and V are 27%, 40%, 33% and 38% respectively. This would imply that R1b-V88 lineages were mostly wiped out by the arrival of E1b1b, then J1 lineages, while maternal lineages survived.

    It would also explain why H1 and H3 are found primarily in Europe, but also a low frequency throughout the Near East and North Africa. These might have been the only haplogroups found among Mesolithic Europeans, Neolithic farmers and R1b people.


    2) The R1b-V88 ancestors of the Fulani did not migrate directly from Egypt to the Sahel, but first moved to the Maghreb, picked up H (presumably H1 and H3), U5 and V lineages and Mediterranean admixture there, then, after many millennia moved to the Sahel. In such a scenario, H, U5 and V wouldn't have been part of the original Near Eastern R1b at all, but would have been indigenous from Northwest Africa and Southwest Europe. They would represent an old West Mediterranean population, whose Y-DNA is undetermined (perhaps I or extinct haplogroup).

    A combination of both scenarios is possible too. For example, U5 could have been part of the original R1b tribes, but not H and V. Or different subclades of H, U5 and/or V were found both among Near Eastern R1b and Mesolithic North Africans. To know that we would need to check what variety of H is found among the Fulani and which deep subclades of U5 and V are found among the Fulani, in the Maghreb and in Central Asia (to compare with another old R1b migration unaffected by African or West European ancestry).



    Unfortunately the Fulani sample is not in the Dodecad K12b list. I had a look at the Henn et al. paper but couldn't find where to download the autosomal data. I would expect them to have Gedrosian admixture, as it is the only admixture identified so far that was absent from both Mesolithic and Neolithic samples, and that is absent today from populations with very low R1b percentages (Sardinians, Bosnians, Finns, Balts, Belarussians, etc.), but peaks in Northwest Europe like R1b.

    I very much believe that this Gedrosian admixture is also a composite of two ancestral populations that have little to do with one another, probably R1b and LT, although both may have originated around Iran right before their Neolithic dispersal, which makes it hard to distinguish them today in West Asia and South Asia.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 01-01-14 at 14:16.
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    Quote Originally Posted by elghund View Post
    Where and when did R1b and H1 and H3 intersect? And R1b and J1c?
    All in Bronze Age Europe.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The Hausa are also in the K12 list, but autosomally they are 99.6% African, and indeed look completely sub-Saharan African. Their high percentage of R1b is only due to a founder effect, and they probably don't have any non-African mtDNA.

    All North Africans have a few per cents of West European admixture, with a clear east-west gradient that is invertly proportional to the West Asian admixture. North Morocco has the most West European (9.5%) and the least West Asian (4%), while Egypt has the least West European (1.5%) and the least West Asian (19%). The Mediterranean admixture varies less and peaks in Tunisia.

    The West European admixture is probably in great part from R1b-V88, while the West Asian one would have come with J1 and J2 lineages. In that case the Mediterranean admixture might come from E1b1b and/or R1b-V88 or another extinct Y-DNA source.


    What surprised me is that almost all African populations have traces of Northeast Asian, Southeast Asian and South Asian admixture, and many also have between 0.1 and 1% of East European, West European and Mediterranean admixture. On the other hand, R1b-V88 is found at low frequencies almost everywhere in Africa, so the two are probably correlated.
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    Very good conclusions from the biggest one of them all, Maciamo. (Sorry about writing this by the way, I couldn't help it even if I wanted to; the truth is the truth)

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    I don't agree with Maciamo, the eurasian admxiture that Fulani have is from northern-africans (Berber admixture). Other populations have as well high levels of R1b-V88 (in parts of Cameroon reaches 90%) yet don't have this kind of admixture.

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    Well the R-V88 frequencies in these Chadic groups is undeniable Wilhelmin, where is this berber influence you speak of? Genetically prove it via statistics please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    I don't agree with Maciamo, the eurasian admxiture that Fulani have is from northern-africans (Berber admixture). Other populations have as well high levels of R1b-V88 (in parts of Cameroon reaches 90%) yet don't have this kind of admixture.
    Some historical sources on the Fulani describe them as having evolved from a mixture of Berbers and Subsaharan Africans in the last 1000 years or so, and their expansions during that time do seem to be from west to east. And according to various internet sources, some Fulani seem to regard themselves as part Berber descent. However, some Fulani apparently consider themseives to be of Semetic origin. But if it wasn't for the genetic information, I'd be inclined to think that the reason they're taller and somewhat paler than their neighbours was simply because they've traditionally been nomads living primarily on dairy products.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have just checked, and the good news is that we already have Fulani autosomal samples from Henn et al. in Dienekes's K12 list. It turns out that they have 13.2% of non-African admixture. Here is their Eurasian composition:

    - 9.6% of Mediterranean
    - 2.4% of Southwest Asian
    - 0.3% of South Asian
    - 0.3% of Southeast Asian
    - 0.2% of Northeast Asian
    - 0.2% of West European
    - 0.1% of East European
    13.2 % is much less than I was guessing, yet still substantial for 7-10k years of mixing. The frequency or Y-R1b (compared to 13.2 of non-african admixture) makes it look even more prolific against other Hgs.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Well the R-V88 frequencies in these Chadic groups is undeniable Wilhelmin, where is this berber influence you speak of? Genetically prove it via statistics please.
    It's not hard to find, there is plenty of info on Fulani autosomal, in this recent study for example using Admixture, one can see Fulani are a mix of West-African (yellow component, peaking in Yoruba)
    and North-African (light blue, present in northern-africans) :


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    I don't agree with Maciamo, the eurasian admxiture that Fulani have is from northern-africans (Berber admixture).
    This is what I wrote in post #4. There are two possibilities. Either mt-haplogroups H, U5 and V came with R1b from the Near East to North Africa then to the Sahel, or R1b picked up these mtDNA lineages in North Africa before moving to the Sahel.

    There are arguments in favour of both hypotheses.

    1) You could think that H1, H3, U5 and V originated in Europe (e.g. Iberia) then spread to North Africa. According to Torroni et al. 2001, haplogroup HV0 and V originated in Europe during the Late Upper Palaeolithic. U5 is also known to be the main haplogroup of Mesolithic Europeans. I have always said that H1 and H3 were already in Europe during the Mesolithic, justly because they are found alongside U5 and V in Iberia and Northwest Africa. If this hypothesis is correct, then all Palaeolithic/Mesolithic European paternal lineages in North Africa have all but disappeared.

    2) H1, H3, U5 and V could have come from the Near East with R1b-V88. All these haplogroups are found in the Near East, especially in Anatolia and the Caucasus region, where Neolithic R1b could have originated.

    I think this issue will remain unresolved until we get more detailed data about the subclades of these mt-haplogroups in Africa.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    13.2 % is much less than I was guessing, yet still substantial for 7-10k years of mixing. The frequency or Y-R1b (compared to 13.2 of non-african admixture) makes it look even more prolific against other Hgs.
    Yes, especially when you see that the Hausa have less than 0.5% of non-African DNA. There must really be some evolutionary bias (like producing slightly more boys) that selected in favour of R1b Y-chromosomes both in Africa and Europe. Back in 2009, I have proposed five reasons why R1b came to replace other paternal lineages so quickly in Europe. Seeing the success of Neolithic R1b in Africa, it looks like the military superiority and aggressive warfare of Bronze Age Indo-Europeans may not have been the most important factor. Polygamy and the genetic predisposition to conceive more boys may have played a bigger role.
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    I have just noticed that Afonso et al. 2004 found 3% of U5 in Sudan, where R1b-V88 is present in some ethnic groups like the Hausa and Fulani. U5 is not found in the Horn of Africa and is rare in Saudi Arabia or Yemen (<1%), so there is a good chance that U5 was brought by R1b people. I am not aware of any Berber migration in Sudan. The study also has 8% of combined pre-HV, HV and H. This could include H1, H3 and V, but we can't be sure.
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    On the subject of African R1b and H, here's a view of the "Tassili Ladies", a petroglyph from Algeria, dating to approximately 3000 b.c.

    Most people marvel at the "British" looking women, but here's a few things that has piqued my interest for a while...

    1. Without knowing the methodology or confidence factor, the dating to 3000 b.c. is interesting because it roughly coincides with the c 2900 b.c. entry of Beaker people in Western Europe, an particularly from Southern Spain.

    2. The art is from the last of the "green Sahara" in which sudden climate change affected numerous peoples. It drove cattle herding people on the margins of the Nile into the green banks. The ensuing chaos between Gerzean type highland people and Delta natives resulted in the formation of organized miliataries and the proto-dynastic state. It stands to reason that it also drove pastoralists into Southern Spain from Morocco and herders in the highland of upper Egypt further south and west along the rivers.

    3. Algeria hosts populations with approximately 70+ mtdna H1 haplotypes. There was probably at one time R1b in large numbers, the male lines destroyed by the Arab invasions.

    4. Oddly enough, the cattle riding. I've seen this in a few places I can't recall, but it appears that riding cattle was an early normal occurrence. Early carts, wagons and plows were pulled by cow labor and apparently people riding cattle was common as well. The picture is unusual for several reasons one being that women are depicted out of their natural environment participating in a journey of some sort (ie. Pilgrimage, nomadic pastoralism, migration) and appear to be fairly well-to-do in my opinion.

    5. They seem well dressed and have hair coloration common in NW Europe. (Red, Auburn, Blonde, Brown)

    6. Beaker pottery typical of Europe does exist in North Africa. The question that remains to be answered conclusively is whether North African Beaker pottery is in fact older than European Beaker
    pottery and how widespread it was.


    Tassili_ladies.jpg

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    There is little doubt in my mind to the origin of the dominant haplogroups in Northwestern Europe.

    Every metric in every discipline seems to point to the Middle East/Near East in the Neolithic (even though this appears strange at first)
    While the data points this direction, the pottery and technology don't exactly match, so we have been at a stand still for the last 100 years with no accepted hypothesis for a believable ancestral population.

    Perhaps, North Africa is the missing component. While it is the most bizarre suggestion, it is in many ways the most reasonable avenue for the genetic and skeletal structure of West Europeans to enter Europe from the Near East. Perhaps in the mid to late Neolithic farmer/cattle men began moving west to exploit green fields in the Sahara. An area already in climatological decline which was devastated by ruminant grazing of the new cattle rearing population. This should not be underestimated. Years ago I witnessed firsthand the effect of grazing in the Southeastern Arabian peninsula. Plots of grazed land were mowed with ruminant perfection and the horizon looked like a checkerboard with squares of scrub and squares of dunes. Looking for green fields, the R1b population split into Europe and the other (V88) deeper into Africa. I would go so far to say that ruminant over-grazing in the Sahara brought about the catastrophic climatological change that destroyed the late Neolithic.

    Now I'll post an Algerian women, don't know what tribe, but who very much reminds me of my red-headed maternal grandmother. Assuming small components of the North African population have been fairly stable, it's easy to imagine descent from a North Africa herding population.



    Kabyle_6.jpg

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    Thanks for the explanation about the Tassili Ladies, T.M. The fact that these petroglyphs depict fair-haired cattle herders reinforces the theory that R1b domesticated cattle in the Early Neolithic and that the original R1b people had fair pigmentation.

    I also agree that R1b must have been much more common in North Africa during the humid phase of the Neolithic, when the Sahara was more like savannah than a desert.

    Cattle riding certainly preceded horse-riding as cows are tamer than horses. In Hinduism, Shiva rides a bull, a clear hint that the Bronze Age Indo-Aryans also rode cattle at some time.

    Where I disagree with you is the suggestion that R1b-V88 could have engendered European R1b-M269. That's phylogenetically impossible. The two lineages split over 10,000 years ago. Besides, the presence of R1b-M269 in Russia, Central Asia and South Asia proves that its origin was around the Black Sea, not in Africa.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    ..............

    Where I disagree with you is the suggestion that R1b-V88 could have engendered European R1b-M269. That's phylogenetically impossible. The two lineages split over 10,000 years ago. Besides, the presence of R1b-M269 in Russia, Central Asia and South Asia proves that its origin was around the Black Sea, not in Africa.
    So when do you believe that R1b entered Africa? After the two lineages split?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have just noticed that Afonso et al. 2004 found 3% of U5 in Sudan, where R1b-V88 is present in some ethnic groups like the Hausa and Fulani. U5 is not found in the Horn of Africa and is rare in Saudi Arabia or Yemen (<1%), so there is a good chance that U5 was brought by R1b people. I am not aware of any Berber migration in Sudan. The study also has 8% of combined pre-HV, HV and H. This could include H1, H3 and V, but we can't be sure.
    some state Berber origins in Ethiopia..............I am unsure.........I think the border of india and pakistan on the coast

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10363131


    "the historical origins of the NW African Y-chromosome pool may be summarized as follows: 75% NW African Upper Paleolithic (H35, H36, and H38), 13% Neolithic (H58 and H71), 4% historic European gene flow (group IX, H50, H52), and 8% recent sub_Saharan African (H22 and H28)", mostly from an "Upper Paleolithic colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa".

    More than 1 scholar say the Berber origins are a mix of caucasian and asian, migrated to east Africa then NW africa. The ones that stayed in East Africa became known as Black Berbers
    http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wor...f-the-berbers/
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    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    So when do you believe that R1b entered Africa? After the two lineages split?
    Please check my R1b history (updated yesterday).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for the explanation about the Tassili Ladies, T.M. The fact that these petroglyphs depict fair-haired cattle herders reinforces the theory that R1b domesticated cattle in the Early Neolithic and that the original R1b people had fair pigmentation.

    I also agree that R1b must have been much more common in North Africa during the humid phase of the Neolithic, when the Sahara was more like savannah than a desert.

    Cattle riding certainly preceded horse-riding as cows are tamer than horses. In Hinduism, Shiva rides a bull, a clear hint that the Bronze Age Indo-Aryans also rode cattle at some time.

    Where I disagree with you is the suggestion that R1b-V88 could have engendered European R1b-M269. That's phylogenetically impossible. The two lineages split over 10,000 years ago. Besides, the presence of R1b-M269 in Russia, Central Asia and South Asia proves that its origin was around the Black Sea, not in Africa.

    Actually, what I was trying to suggest is that R1b-M269 and R1b-V88 split (geographically) representing founder populations with M269 becoming more common in NW Africa and V88 driving further down. Both would have originally trekked from the Near East possibly at slightly different times, so I don't dispute the phylogeny of either.

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    So now for some linguistic observations...

    1. It is an interesting assertion that Proto-Chadic language may have been spread by R1b-V88 cattlemen in the late Neolithic.

    2. Equally interesting that Berbers have ultra-high mtdna H1 and some R1b. Reconstructed Proto-Berber was spoken by cattlemen who did not possess camels.

    3. It is interesting that Northwest Europeans speak a Centum language. The geographic origin of the Centum languages was likely NE Mespotamia and Southern Anatolia.
    This is where the Centum branch of Proto-Anatolian was spoken and Tochari in the Western Zargos. Proto-Euphratean would likely pre-dated the Centum-Satem isogloss and would also likely be Centum-like. It should be noted that this zone is the likely phylogenetic distribution point of many of the uni-parental markers of people in Western Europe.

    4. Even more interesting is the peculiarities of the Irish languages which may have been influenced some by an Afro-Asiatic language. Ireland is a unique test case for the origin of the Celtic languages and indeed Proto-Italo-Celtic. Because Ireland appears to have direct continuity with the Beaker Age with no other known population influx, if indeed Irish represents a discreet linguistic vane stemming from the old language, it may have preserved some of the more archaic features of a North African branch.


    All of this is important because both Proto-Indo-European and "at least" Proto-Semitic were in close proximity in their formative stages. The age of Proto-Afroasiatic takes us to about the beginning of the Neolithic as early farmers began diffusing from the Near East.

    So with that, we should see very high levels of Haplogroup H in the Megalithic farmers who diffused across North Africa and then into Western Europe. These early Neolithic farmers did not yet have R1b as R1b appears to be generally absent in Neolithic communities where H's have already spread with typical farmer Y haplotypes.

    At some point in the early Neolithic, a new people, probably R1b began moving into the Middle East and intermingled with the Natives. The only mtdna of an Ubaidian that I am aware of belongs to H3 from Northern Mespotamia.

    In the Mid-Neolithic, the hybrids (PIE's) move across Africa with cattle. Theoretically, one group could be our ancestors (M269) who spoke a Centum language, moving into Europe with the Neolithic collapse of North Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    Actually, what I was trying to suggest is that R1b-M269 and R1b-V88 split (geographically) representing founder populations with M269 becoming more common in NW Africa and V88 driving further down. Both would have originally trekked from the Near East possibly at slightly different times, so I don't dispute the phylogeny of either.
    But the only R1b-M269 in North Africa is Roman R1b-U152 and R1b-P312. There is only a tiny amount of M269* and only in Algeria and Tunisia, not in Morocco, Libya nor Egypt. That M269 probably from Italy (Romanised Greeks).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    So now for some linguistic observations...

    1. It is an interesting assertion that Proto-Chadic language may have been spread by R1b-V88 cattlemen in the late Neolithic.
    Actually Proto-Chadic is only associated with some R1b-V88 populations (Hausa, Kirdi). The Berbers are Semitic speakers and the Fulani speak a Senegambian language that is not part of the Afro-Asiatic family.

    Since PIE arose in the Pontic Steppe, it would have been impossible for the R1b-V88 branch to be Indo-European. It is likely that the Neolithic R1b-V88 herders either spoke an Afro-Asiatic language too (perhaps picked up in the Levant before entering Africa), or a language that is now extinct.
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